Breakdown: Analysing the UAP & Whistleblower Hearing

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Intuit TurboTax. Visit TurboTax.com to learn more. Only available with TurboTax experts. Real-time updates only in iOS mobile app. Hi everyone, and welcome back to That UFO Podcast. My name is Andy, and joined for a breakdown is the OG of the breakdown podcast shows. Dan Zetterstrom, soon to be host of his own show, depending on when this is coming out tomorrow, so I think we're fine. But we'll get into that. Dan, welcome back. Hey, thank you so much for having me. It's been a big week for UAP stuff. We haven't seen each other for a bit to talk about this, so we're going to be talking about it for the first time now. Anyway, Dan, welcome back. A couple of things to talk about. The hearing, we're recording this the day after, the day after, the night before, whatever you want to call it. The hearing's happened 9th of September, 10 a.m. Eastern Time, 3 p.m. UK, wherever you are around the world. And do you know what? Dan, as always, we haven't spoken about our thoughts yet on the hearing at all, not even messaged about it. Really quick thoughts are, the hearing was great. There's an issue from it that has arisen that I suppose I've got to say has tainted it a little bit. And we'll get to that, but very quick reaction for TikTok. Probably, and we'll get to this at the end, but it's close second to the Grush hearing. Probably quite a lot better than the others we've had so far. And obviously me and you are going to go over the details, but what were your kind of immediate reactions before we discuss it and ruin it for ourselves? Well, I watched it way after it happened, like the day after, so I've been free of the hype like last time. And I really enjoyed it. I would say I agree, second to the Grush hearings. All three kind of, you know, weaved together and we finally got a little bit of visual progress of what's happening with Grush now as well, his grizzled Batman phase, should we say? Yeah, hovering in the background of the hearings. So, Dan, what we'll do is we'll go through it kind of as we normally do chronologically and just share our thoughts on what happened. Very quickly to recap, folks, in case you're listening to this and you haven't seen the ahead of the hearings or the reaction pod I'd done yesterday. We had our witnesses, Jeff Nusitelli. I've been calling him Nusitelli, but it's Nusitelli. I'll put Chief Wiggins, Chief Alexandro Wiggins, George Knapp, Dylan Borland and Joe Spielberger. Knapp, I think before it, Dan, was the one where a lot of people were like, huh, George Knapp being there, why have we got a journalist again? We want military folks, we want scientists who have worked with the craft and all that kind of stuff. And we'll get to why that maybe doesn't happen, given the whole purpose of the hearing. I think Knapp came out this really well. I don't know what your take is on that one. Yeah, Knapp did really well. He has so much experience in this field. He's been doing this for decades and agree or disagree with certain pieces where he's put forward. It's very clear that he's dedicated to the issue and he's been working real hard. And he, in this hearing, names, which I'm excited to talk about when we get to it. Yeah. What I'll say is, on the recap I done yesterday, I went through the statements and gave the gist of what everyone spoke about. Do you want to do that now again? Or do you think we're going to do it? Yeah, I mean, let's just do it as we go. Let's go through chronologically and then people who maybe didn't hear that or just, you know, want to hear what we kind of pulled from each of the statements. Yeah, we can do that. But before we start, can I just say how strange it was? I don't know if you saw it on social media. There were a few things that were going on with just people being at the hearing. And the night before they had this mixer and present was, you know, Carl Nell, Colonel Carl Nell, also, you know, Jaime Maswan, Stephen Greer. He was even mentioned in these hearings. So it's such a strange mix of people. And it's really just wonderful to see everyone kind of put their differences aside and just all start trying to pull in the same direction. Also, Matthew Brown, the whistleblower that was mentioned in the last hearings for the Immaculate Constellations documents, he was present at these hearings. He was sat right behind George Knapp. So previous hearing, you know, he was spoken about. This hearing, he sat behind George Knapp. Is he going to be in the chair in the next hearing? He's getting closer. Let me start off with a bit of a controversial talking point then. I say controversial. It's only controversial if you want it to be. So you've brought up the kind of mixer that happened the night before, okay? Sure. And is there an argument there, I'll just put out there, that part of the issue with some of the negativity that comes from the hearings and these events and just the subject from a political point of view is there are too many cooks involved. And not to jump ahead too much, but when you've got Eric Burleson with David Grush behind him, mixing with Danny Sheehan, Jaime Missan, and then quoting Stephen Greer, is that not potentially an issue itself? I know in one way you can look at it as I'm getting the best of all worlds, you know, Kellogg's variety pack of cereal. But also there's a real blending of the palette there that I don't know if that necessarily is conducive to real progress and going forward just to use the, I'll just use the Elizondo-Sheehan scale. I think I might change it to the Grush, sorry, Greer scale. I'll change it to the Grush-Greer scale because it's more illiterate. Grush on one end, Greer on the other. Is there not an issue there, potentially? Yeah, there's potentially conflicts, right, between the stories they're telling people. I'm choosing to look at it as, okay, we're just looking at all the kinds of evidence, you know, similar to what OSAP had to do back in the day. They even went to World Weekly News and they had to just use what was available. But it's certainly jarring seeing, you know, Stephen Greer is week to week on his podcast saying that Washington isn't helping, that, you know, Elizondo and all of the people that Elizondo works with are plants and yet here he hears shoulder to shoulder with them. I think that this rhetoric from people like Greer kind of needs to change if we want to look at a situation like this and see the positive in it instead of the potential conflicts. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. I'm just sometimes, I'm also a little uncomfortable at the public spectacle of these hearings and the rush for it to be UFO celebrity, who can get inside the building. Rather, does that take away and make it more of a spectacle rather than the content of what it is? And it's just like, let's focus on the witnesses, the hearings, what it's for and what it can accomplish as opposed to making it a show. Yeah. These things kind of often become shows, right? And one of the reasons, I'm only three hours from DC. One of the reasons I didn't drive up is because, literally, because of that spectacle. You know, like there's so many people that I know there and that would have overshadowed the day for me in terms of it being about the whistleblowers. And so, you know, the purest thing to do with these hearings is to just listen to the hearing, watch it online. You know, I probably got a better view online than I did sitting in that room and I didn't have to queue from 11 p.m. the night before to get in there, you know. There's certainly a kind of weird, I guess, celebrity kind of and groups kind of coming around these hearings. And again, I don't know if that's to the detriment or to the, you know, its benefit. But we'll see going forward, I guess. Yeah. Maybe it's a good thing. It's all going to be subjective, isn't it? Luna kicked off with a statement. I think the big talking point from that is going to be she called out publicly Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick, former head of Arrow, as a documented liar. There seems to be no love lost there and I imagine there may have been conversations in the background that's helped contribute towards that. I don't think Luna has just learned about the UFO community's distaste or distrust of Sean Kirkpatrick. There seems to be some real animosity and bad blood there. And that comes up later on. She mentioned about, you know, senior officials lending their weight behind the credibility of your grushes, your favours, you know, the people coming forward to name names and the weight of their testimony based on their service, what they've been doing, the type of people they are and how important that is coming from real high-ranking officials probably ties into the whole Age of Disclosure debate and again, if that could have been coming out right round about now, that would have been really good because those people are part of that documentary and it's still kind of nowhere to be seen but yeah, Luna's statement was fine, yep. I wonder if Age of Disclosure will be updated with people like Borland now, you know, it's quite an amazing testimony that he brought and the last thing we want is for that movie to just be out of date, right? There are a whole bunch of new politicians involved, you know, Jasmine Crockett came in today and she was a bit of a firecracker, really reminded me a lot of how AOC was at the early UFO hearings where she was less talking about UFOs and more talking about problems with overclassification in the government and, you know, structural issues that affect the UFO issue and so many other issues too. So I think for the neutral people out there, like, she's going to be their way into this whereas, you know, Luna, Burchett, you know, Burleson, they've clearly been in this for a long time and have a lot more to say because they've seen a lot more and spoken to a lot more people but I think the takeaway from Luna's opening statement is to remember like that's what we're judging this hearing by. What were their aims? What did they get out of the witnesses to help with those aims? And I think this one for me appears to be all about whistleblower protection and structures that allow reporting of disinformation and tracking it transparently with the public and the service members that report it. Yeah, and just to remind you that the title of the hearing folks is Restoring Public Trust Through UAP Transparency and Whistleblower Protection so there is a reason and rhyme to what they're doing and the people involved in it and the conversations. It's not Blowing the Lid off the UFO topic unfortunately is not the title of the hearing. Can I ask you a question real quick while you're there? So that title is really provocative because it seems to suggest that if they complain about the UFO issue then we'll trust them on everything else. Would it work that way for you? It certainly wouldn't for me. Don't know. It sounds like a bit of a thick think tanky or group chat. Okay guys, no idea is a bad idea. Let's throw out what are we calling this? What are the buzzwords we have to use? Where are the public at? Oh, there's a lack of trust, lack of transparency. Good, good. Let's get those words in there and they've put it together. I'm nonplussed about the it's like calling a program ATIP the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. Cool, UFOs. Whatever. I'm not too fussed on it and what they call it. More about the content and again, not to jump too far ahead, I fear there's an element of how good a lot of the content was being lost on a little bit of the sizzle. Yeah, the shiny stuff. The distracted. Yeah. Okay, cool. Let's go. And then you mentioned Crockett and her statement. Yeah, cool. Very grounded. Down to Earth. Did touch on NASA not finding anything for arrow being formed and I like that she mentioned, you know, a lot of reports are explainable, you know, misidentifications, balloons, etc. But we need to track down each UAP. So, you know, it's not good enough just to say that some are explainable. There are videos and photographs and testimonies that point to things that aren't explainable and that was that was a nice way for her to kind of put that in there. Like you say, it was very grounded and I think that's required in these things too. Otherwise, it can be too much sensationalism. Yeah. I'm surprised that she mentioned the NASA thing that NASA didn't find anything because they didn't look like what they did was look at how they would study it. They didn't study it. So to say they didn't find anything makes it sound like they actually investigated and that was never what they did and never what they said they were going to do. But high level, but staffery, someone suggested that. Maybe that's what she's saying. Sure. I'm really sorry for this really unprofessional note but I just found Miss Titus was basically giving a great career retrospect of George Knapp, gave him a glowing reference and she was fanboying out a little bit on George. I'm not complaining but it was just like oh my god, it's George Knapp. Yeah, absolutely. Someone else, one of the witnesses said that they've watched all George Knapp stuff as well so he was a bit of a celebrity in this one I think and yeah, she just waxed lyrical about how much she loved him. I didn't even write any notes. I just, you know, she loved George. Cool. Good. So it wasn't just me and I was pretty much paying attention throughout the whole thing as well. So yeah, they go on to read their statements, Dan. Jeff Nusitelli, again, I'm checking, Nusitelli, reads his statement. I've got some notes here. Again, former US military police officer, 16 years service. He emphasised Americans having the right and responsibility to know the truth about UAP. I don't want to go through tons of detail on the statements because there's a lot of questions and stuff to get through as well. Talked about the Vandenberg Air Force Base incident, the huge red square in October 2003, hovering over the missile defence areas, drifting east. He collected the testimony from folks on the base at that time. Talked about, you know, the statements from people, it's coming right at us, now it's right here. Very Randal sighting. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Kind of got like an almost tone and a pattern to some of those sightings from a military base point of view. Definitely. Lights coming from over the ocean, armed response units mobilised, talked about his own sighting later on as well. Jeff is really professional. I think he spoke well. I don't think even the weakest witness at this hearing would have been out of place in the previous hearing that we had because I think they all kind of contributed something here. And I think Jeff was one that some folks I've seen online are perhaps a little more not worried about but felt it wasn't impactful because we knew his story, he'd been on podcasts, we wanted surprise witnesses, we wanted new information, we wanted new testimony but no, I thought Jeff held up his own. Anything to add on the statement stuff, Dan? Yeah, just that I love that Jeff emphasised and all the others did too but Jeff, you know, started off on the right foot by saying that he had three goals by coming to testify and that is that they should fund independent research into UFOs, they should end secrecy and overclassification and they should protect the witnesses because that emboldens others to come forward. Now I'm looking in my notes at Chief Wiggins and I can't get, you know, embiggins the smaller spirit out of my head from The Simpsons but yeah, emboldens others to come forward and that's what we need, you know, these people there to just share their experience as people with UFO events in their lives who feel that they have had negative consequences as a result of that and Jeff fits right in there. Yep, we move on to Chief Alexandro Wiggins. He was on Weaponized back in April sharing his story of the event at the USS Jackson which occurred in 2023. Talks about, you know, that area off the coast of Southern California, Dan, very popular. I'm wearing my Monsters of California hoodie again just for the occasion. I went there too and we saw a whole bunch of people freaking out about Starlink. They didn't know what it was. It was a big Starlink trail going over and they just decided, eh, I don't know what it is so it's fine and I was like, if you don't know what it is, that looks even crazier. What do you think of that area in general, that whole rumoured water, watery base type place? Well, the underwater base that, you know, keeps going around, that's been found to just be, you know, rock formation like a natural rock formation that had a weird low resolution scan way back when. But that area does seem to have a lot of activity and it seems to have a lot of lava tubes as well that go into the Earth and under the islands. That's what I mean more than the, you know, static. But these things go there and seem to be at least entering the water, don't they? Regularly. And one argument to be made is that this is a staging area. You know, when you go there, you can see all of the warships, you know, these massive Navy vessels and I'd seen pictures but it didn't prepare me for how big these things were. They were so imposing. It was crazy and there were so many of them. So this is where you would want to send something to spy on some stuff if you were an adversary. But also, if you were an adversary that was unknown and come from somewhere else, that would also be where you send something. And it's quite far out as well, you know, to get from the mainland to Catalina, you're looking at like an hour and a half ferry ride. So it's not like you can just see the island off the coast and go there in like 20 minutes. That is a big stretch of water and it's real deep. And so it would just be a prime staging area for anything coming in that wanted to investigate, you know? Yeah. So he talked about the tic-tac-shaped object emerging from the ocean in 2023, trans-medium event joined by three similarly shaped craft, all four departed, near simultaneous acceleration, no sonic boom, no visible propulsion, all the classic earmarks of those events disappeared from radar immediately. He also talked about multiple sensor systems picking this up as well. So, yeah, a lot of potentially really good data to be had from that. I think Wiggins speaks really well, spoke really well. He was quite happy to, like all of them, not overly speculate. I think he kept himself pretty reserved at times without being boring about it. You know, he wasn't going into, oh yeah, it's aliens. Borland perhaps went a little bit further in skirting around the language, but I thought Wiggins presented himself incredibly well. He urged Congress to improve UAP detection, reporting, and analysis protocols. Do you think, Dan, sometimes we, and tell me if I'm wrong, right, do we feel things have moved forward too much in terms of the stigma reduced, the reporting's getting better, when we hear a couple of folks coming forward when it seems you've got people still coming out and saying it needs to be better, more needs to be done? Is it just a case of like the kind of, the movement started to improve, but we maybe give it too much credence sometimes and there's still real difficulty in getting these folks to come forward easily? Yeah, I absolutely agree. You know, from where we were pre-2017, a crazy amount of stuff has happened. We've had UFO hearings, there's guidance now, there are yearly reports coming out and it's kind of almost like being deprived of water and then given like a really small cup of water and you're very thankful. It's Stockholm Syndrome. It's the basics. The basics, yeah. Yeah, and that's kind of where we are. Like, yes, I'm thankful that all this stuff has happened and we're definitely further along than we have been. UFOs are more popular and accepted than they have ever been, arguably, you know, but at the same time, it's clearly not good enough and we haven't got the protections that we need and part of that, I think, is that when you hear about these reprisals, you just kind of, you know, you think of the movies you've seen, like unless you've had these experiences of people leaving things on, you know, say, a kitchen table and saying like, hey, I can come get you when I want or intimidating family members and stopping you getting work and blacklisting you from certain organizations, you're not going to really grok the effect that that has on people and there's only a certain amount that legislation can do, you know, like I can write protect whistleblowers on paper all I want but unless it goes further than the protections they've got now which are just congressional protections, you know, Luna's not going to be there protecting Wiggins from someone that breaks into his house with a gun and so there's a seriousness to this that means those protections have to be expanded greatly because the reach of Congress is just, I think we're seeing it, it's weak, it's too weak to do anything about this and then, you know, adding to that all the political turmoil about, you know, choosing sides and bending the knee and so on and so forth, it just, it means that the stuff we have isn't good enough and we have to keep pushing. Yeah. Next up is George Knapp's testimony. He needs almost no introduction reporter at KLAS TV in Vegas. He has been investigating this since the late 80s. He brought the Lazar story to the fore. Lazar got name dropped pretty early on which was interesting to hear. I think it was almost a bingo card of will we hear the Lazar name come up or not? Probably had to. Lazar, Lazar, Knapp went a bit off script though didn't he? Because he was like everyone was reading their statements in that opening and Knapp kind of went look you've got my statement but he just started rambling and chatting in a good way. Just about some stuff that was going to come up. His statement was really long as well. So I think he just didn't have the time to read the whole thing so he was trying to hit the bullet points. He needed chat GPT next to him to be like summarize this for me and let me speak it. Yeah and read it in his voice. Yeah. But the statement talked about the Lazar S4 story that mentions how do we read we get we get the OSAP programs brought up Robert Bigelow 240,000 UAP case files James Lekatsky a lot of this stuff comes back up again as Knapp gets asked questions throughout the hearing it touches on his Soviet era UFO program stuff which was really interesting quite interesting to hear I suppose in retrospect I thought about this less at the time hearing so much chat about Russia and the USSR and their work on this and an open congressional hearing in the United States which I wonder how that's gone down over there which is difficult to really get any kind of reaction to that it's not as if we can just ask our Russian UFO podcasting colleagues or it's not really like that is it? Either they're going to be in full-blown panic or someone's getting a pay rise because their misinformation they put out worked very well one of the two yeah they mentioned things like Thread 3 which is like the biggest I think George Knapp said probably the biggest in the world UFO program for data collection it had sub-programs underneath it a lot of cool stuff George Knapp came off this hearing really well and I think he he had a lot to lose in terms of the UFO community's credibility in this for those who support him and like him and would have had probably more wolves ready to jump on him because of his background and who he is so fair play to George coming out of this like a champ as they all did he did so good just controlling that like we've been saying I guess celebrity aspect of it and just keeping it real down to earth and just saying look these are the facts in this opening statement he said that the paper trail is compelling and this is something we all have said across the board even debunkers they say yeah sure we can't find the proof that they think UFOs are real but we can definitely find the paperwork to show that they're messing with the public's perception of what's there and what isn't and how to seriously they take it behind the scenes and I think that's the takeaway there the threat three stuff was really interesting for anyone in the community it's not new these documents have been out there and around I work with the Sun newspaper in the UK boo to them a couple of years back to give them the documents and they wrote a good article on it so there are a few things out there if you want to find out what's in those documents beyond what George said in the hearing because they would have taken a whole day to read easily yeah and fair play to George I love the fact George Knapp for all his status in the journalist community his office looks like shit if you've famously seen his show it's just boxes and paper everywhere I love that on his desk next to him in the hearing it was just a pile of fucking paper not even organized neatly just like ready to go through it at any moment yeah he has no doubt so much stuff and it always I always think of it when people bring up the video of you know element 115 that Lazar gave him and he says I can't find it and I'm like I won't find it and all that stuff either you know he's just got a lot of paperwork he wants to keep but his office does look really cool in a like a Mulder-esque FBI basement X-Files-y type way until you need to use it practically in which case you can't fucking find anything you need so yeah hat tip to George Dylan Borland I think was the witness who had the most intrigue for me and I think plenty of folks coming into this Dan I'll find out from yourself in a second I checked LinkedIn the day his name got announced and kind of found he was a former US Air Force geospatial intelligence specialist from 2010 to 2013 he had post service at BAE Systems and Intrepid Solutions his specialisations were in analysing advanced video radar and electrical optical imagery for aerial operations and yep he is a federal whistleblower having given testimony to the Inspector General and Arrow back in March 2023 I think he said he came forward to them so over two and a bit years ago and I think that's something in all of this if you can get a bit lost in this sometimes if days or weeks or months can be a bit heavy if people or groups let you down things don't go the way you want them to there are things happening in the background that we don't know and don't hear about so there was this guy who we're going to go through what he said and how well he's come out of this that two and a half years ago first reported things and started the ball rolling and only now you're getting to hear from Dylan Borland shared his own incident that happened in summer 2012 at Langley Air Force Base he saw a 100 foot equilateral triangle hovering near the hangar 100 feet above him it interfered with his telephone there was no sound visible disturbance I think Daniel will have really enjoyed I'm guessing his description of the craft like almost like a black paint job but a glowing aura of different colours I can't remember gold and a couple of others he said going over the craft like an alive skin yeah sure he went on into it a little bit later as well people were asking questions about it and he was talking about it being like almost lava and we've heard that before you know it's the Chuck Clark video and countless other sightings that there seems to be material on this craft that's living or shedding or you know interacting with the atmosphere and doing something or you know what we're seeing is potentially I guess folks will be thinking well there's a bubble around it so it's distorting kind of what's inside so it might look like it's you know alive on the surface yeah common thing in all these kind of craft reports he also used the phrase technologies of unknown origin which is something that's been coming up again and again little bits over the past couple of years starting with debrief and it was great to see it here again because it's it touches on the whole weasel language aspect that they get into a little later on that we'll talk to when we get there yeah and then skipping on to Joe Spielberger was a last minute witness he was added in the day before that was reported on he is a senior policy counsel at project on government oversight or POGO he was added to the roster like I say 24 hours before the session his presence was there for you know whistleblower protections and transparency talking about how they weren't just timely topics but urgent priorities for the hearings organizers and I think he brought a real kind of staunch seriousness to the proceedings he wasn't the go-to guy for the UFO chat he was there to talk about whistleblowers protections legalities laws policies and can I just keep things running a certain way when things came back to him so yeah it seems to be really experienced talks about you know whistleblowers often bring first bring light to government misconduct some of the things brought up I felt he made a really it was Spielberger it may have been in a statement or not about the issue whistleblowers have as quite often the reporting processes are the people they are whistleblowing against are the people they have to go and report it to and that's not you know that's like the old when you go to your boss at work and they say oh I'm also HR and they write your report down but then shred it next to you as well I got that kind of feeling from it and made some really clear points even a day it's like me you can understand which I appreciated he urged Congress to reaffirm bipartisan support for whistleblowers regardless of political leanings prioritize evidence over individual narratives and strengthening whistleblower protections he argued is fundamental to good government governance and public trust interestingly while that was happening I noticed Dean Johnson had tweeted out to say that the UAP Disclosure Act wasn't included going into the NDAA that's through the House is that right but the Senate can still include it yes so the House has to choose to include it the Senate has to choose to include it and then after that they go into conference where it can also be brought in as something that was missed and then it goes to the president's desk around December so just because it's not introduced in the House it's not you know the end of days for it but it just doesn't bode well because it looks like there's some tomfoolery going on behind the scenes still yeah shall we get into it then Dan yeah I just want to touch on one thing just before we crack on and it was a tiny moment but it was a sea change in how whistleblowers and UFO witnesses have been treated for decades since this whole issue came out did you notice that Luna actually apologized to the witnesses and I think that is probably the first apology that any whistleblowers have received from the government officially and I'm hoping that that kind of you know compassion just carries on I bet there are so many service members out there you know Bob Jacobs people like that they love an apology they haven't got it Arrow just made them out to be kooks or wrong or you know change change their story they all need an apology and props to Luna for doing that yes Burleson did finish the entire thing that run two and a half hours by saying enough talking it's time for action so I will just add that in there that it's nice to get the apology but stuff needs to happen off the back of it yes words and actions so yeah Luna questions first Dan they add a few other folks in but again I'm not going into huge huge huge huge detail in every single moment because it was a two and a half hour long hearing folks let's just read the transcript oh god can you imagine I couldn't I think I'm still tired today from that yesterday if folks haven't seen it or don't know how these things work it's an interesting structure isn't it Dan that so I'll be like okay Dan you're here Graham here Dave you're here everyone gets five minutes to ask questions you can also give up part of your time so if Dan has like two minutes and then still left at the end of his he can give it back or as we find later on some folks were only there to give their time back I think to other congressmen and women who had more questions to ask which I think in previous episodes we said we wanted them to do that right because the questions are so bitty when they're broken up into five minute things we were like yeah it would be better if there were just two people asking constant questions if Luna's on a roll and she gets to five minutes and she wants to follow up she can't she has to hand over to someone else and it's just a little bit old hat with these things but it's the world of politics isn't it so again what I've got here Dan for Luna's questions she asked Borland about the size of the triangular craft and how he could be so sure of the size Borland said he thought it was a weather balloon at first then he's walked along a path he knew the area well he said it was one to two stories thick he could see the top of it the edges were 90 degrees a few folks have commented on that about well 90 degrees in a triangle wouldn't work that would be a square but I think he was just talking about the angular nature of the corner of the craft there being no rounded edges basically I think and that's a very human thing as well right yeah in the moment I wouldn't be like 46.7 degree like I'm just roughly it's the same it's totally the same though when you go do you know what I've done a 360 on this what you mean is you've done a 180 because a 360 puts you but everyone almost to a man says that I've done a 360 on it you mean a 180 that's so just those kind of little turns of phrases and because he describes there's one light on each corner one big light in the center he talked about the phone interference we talked about the body of the craft the skin and he said he could feel like a static all over his body oh yeah he said like a lightning storm right like yeah it smelled like a lightning storm and that's in the air and that's really interesting a summery storm so when we were in Colombia and we were filming the light on the mountain all day Vinny was saying like he felt like a charge in the air that it was like lightning storm kind of smell and stuff like that and then that happened so I wonder if that kind of thing is a environmental kind of byproduct of whatever propulsion they use it I'm guessing I'm speculating you know I'm an idiot otherwise but yeah it's curious yeah Borland says that Grush was really important in bringing him forward he feels he's following in his footsteps that was nice Luna asked Borland about Kirkpatrick Sean Kirkpatrick and his staff's behavior and I think really fairly Dylan Borland said that he went to the Aro staff in 2023 in March he feels they were good people just doing what they were told to do I believe he said Kirkpatrick wasn't present either he didn't want to be there or just wasn't there for him speaking he came back to this a few times about he knows information now he can't discuss can't discuss and that was something there was a nervousness to him which I think was probably endearing for a lot of folks like myself similar to Matthew Brown a lot of folks commented over the Munstan as we did there was a kind of genuineness to his approach and he seemed a little awkward and a bit nervous and I've got to be careful what I'm saying and he was quite I thought he was quite confident and I think the Congress folks could have taken it the wrong way but a few times he was like I don't know if you're even allowed to know that and that could be like a bit of an ego hit but he was trying to make the point that I'm not sure and I'll get into big trouble at one point referencing it would be what's the word treason if he said something wrong which was then the death penalty still technically and he's like it's just not worth so he was really trying his best to to talk around what he could and she asked him about how important the UAP disclosure act could be and he says very and that's what I had for from notes for from Luna and Borland done yeah I just add there at the end you know the UAP PDA thing he said that he thinks seven year window of release should be shortened which I'm all for you know we get the stuff sooner but you can really tell that he's frustrated with the lack of transparency with how he was treated and I like that he didn't just say you know ask me in a skiff he explained I think more so to people at home watching why he was saying that that you know he doesn't know if he can say he doesn't know if they're allowed to hear it there are multiple aspects to that he can't just go in a room and spill the beans or you know he could be on a death row yeah and perhaps you know what this isn't a dig at previous people speaking at hearings but perhaps the way they've come across about I can't tell you that here we'll have to do it in the skiff can come across a little bit I don't know if arrogance the word or or flippant but they're just trying to make the point but you're right Dylan Borland kind of spelled it out for folks who are watching this maybe for the first time to be like I I don't know if you're even legally allowed to hear this I would have to do it in a different way and that was something they seemed really really comfortable with so yeah Jared Moskowitz came in next who has been who's been good on this topic he said for him the landscape of the conversation has changed and the quality of the witnesses stand out he turns first to to Wiggins and asks you know what are your thoughts on on what you saw Wiggins says everything he was told as a kid and adult was no longer applicable as the objects he saw defied gravity he didn't know what to think at the time and he gets pressed on what he thinks now and he says look I'm not an expert but he wasn't pressured by anyone to say what he thought it was or wasn't at any time so again it wasn't like he was making you have to make arrow sound bad you have to make gatekeepers sound bad here where you put it was it was very fair and I would rather and this is something we're going to come back to with things later on I would rather folks were just honest and said they don't know or they're not sure then then put on a show yeah which was really good and and it's funny you know we're all using like chat bots and things these days and one of the problems with generative AI is it can't say I don't know it will you know just give you the answer instead of saying that because that's how it trains uncertainties right and and that's kind of we're in the same place with the UAP thing like just just say I don't know please it's okay like you can come back and fill in the gap later or give more information in another way but it's important to let people know that you don't think you know everything yeah the comments on the video from the USS Jackson which is one of two videos shown here today and it is not the controversial one and he says the American people should think there is something out there and we should know as the people what it is and Moskowitz really seems to want him to commit to what it might be but Wiggins just isn't isn't going there and which is which is fair Moskowitz turns to Borland and asks him what he done after after the event Borland says he spoke to some co-workers one said that he's best not speaking about it to anyone kind of highlighting that reporting chain of command what they do afterwards and I think sometimes we can get so caught up in the event that you forget these people then after the event what happens they go home they go they go for a shower they go for something to eat they've got to go on a school run the next morning they've got to go back to work you know got to go to a grocery store any number of things but with this now in their head it's not as if their whole life's changes and after that they sit waiting on podcasters phoning them to do interviews that's that's not what happens and so their lives do go on outside of it and he's got to kind of carry that with them and he asks Jeff Nusitelli the same and he said he called the security forces command center to report it and I did like that he joked he did make sure that no one had been abducted yeah everyone got a little giggle it's a tense day right so make a joke it's fine you can have fun with this I'm all good with that anything to add there before I get to Mace just to emphasize something that Moscow had said when he was talking to Wiggins you know when they were trying to he was trying to get Wiggins to commit to a what it was and they basically came down to okay so it's either government or it's someone else that has this capability that is huge that's a scary question really and and it's been asked you know this is what's called the threat narrative but it's a question that needs to be asked because if one of these things decided you know as we hear later in the Russian cases from George if these things decided that they wanted to turn around and be a problem we'd have a big problem yep representative Nancy Mace comes in it's funny because of the setting and the cameras it's you don't really know who's all there any one time and as we've seen at previous hearings the the congressmen and women come in and out as they have things on and they have to be places some folks can come in quite late and not see what's been happening others ask their questions then go so it's kind of like you don't know they're there and bang they pop up in the seat and so Nancy Mace is there she asks Borland if there were other witnesses he says no it was late it was just him she asks him if he thinks it was US government technology really interesting answer here Dan he says he once did think that but would answer that knowing a skiff because of what he knows now he didn't think it was a foreign government that's I'll just add that and then get your thought yeah so he didn't think it was a foreign government no yeah that's right so it stands to be someone else and does he mean you know aliens from space so does he mean a group here that is outside the ring of the government or are we talking about you know the Knights of Malta or the Templars or you know something like that I think it's clear at this point that this is like an extra curricular government thing that has broken off and is no longer reporting to the command structures that they should be it's all gotten a bit out of hand but also I want to emphasize when I say that that some of the people that work in these programs are just doing their job and I love that that keeps being emphasized you know they're just putting food on the table for their kids and things like that and doing what they're told to do so we're we need a little compassion in that kind of way to get these people out and draw them out Borland said he needs to be careful as the wrong word could be treason I've put espionage but I think treason would be the right word espionage is very Metal Gear solid and that would that would include Borland funny you say that when I said about Grush being in his grizzled Batman phase I was going to say Metal Gear Solid 3 Solid Snake phase but not many people would know that but you would have Metal Gear Grush Metal Gear Grush Solid Grush yeah so that's the death penalty he doesn't fear being tracked I felt for him here okay and I thought this was a real do you know actually just going back through this with you Dan which is good about good about these I feel better again about the hearings and forgetting because of something we've still to get to which has put a bit of a dampener on it in a way but again you forget how good these were he says he doesn't fear being tracked down by agencies he's getting that you know CIA FBI three-letter agencies NSA coming after him and shooting him and all that kind of stuff that's what he's getting at but he's unemployed and he's living on unemployment benefits now which run out in a few weeks basically he's it's the reprises that have come from this that I would just urge people and I don't think many folks listening to this or watching this or the type of folks that do partake in this behaviour right but if you're the type of person that sits in and goes they should just tell us everything and to hell with NDAs and national security and tell us the bit they know here's a guy that's coming out and trying to say what he knows which isn't the whole picture I don't think by any mean and I imagine even Dylan Borland telling us everything he knows it would be a little more than really us going that's really interesting I wonder where he's got that from and and but for him he's in jail and he has no career and we go oh that was a cool quote wasn't it and move on and that's I think what gets lost you put that really succinctly I think that's so true you know what what are you risking and for who like are you going to risk your life for someone that calls you a dickhead online because you didn't say the whole sentence that you went to say and thought oh wait I'll be thrown in jail for that like this is the part of you know you have to look at reality and how these people are being affected and how they could be affected if they carry on doing what they're doing or just speak openly and freely in a public hearing you know the human we have to see them as human and let them have a life as well and support them where we can one thing I missed sorry a second ago is when Borland said I know what I know now it wasn't us he also says arrow has the answer so this is someone as well that sat there going you're asking me these questions I will be thrown in jail if I say this you've got a government organization that knows the answer to this and they're not telling you go knock their door go subpoena them let that guy risk his career to be put in jail there was a really good point made by one of the folks in the discord here a number if you pay for the podcast folks you get access to the discord rain kitten said why isn't the UEP disclosure fund not helping Dylan Borland so that's a really fair question you've got this disclosure fund set up to help whistleblowers and here's one saying that he's on benefits and you know has no job we don't know Dylan Borland's individual circumstance we don't know that he hasn't been helped I did ask folks that UEP disclosure fund if they were helping Dylan Borland or had made an offer and they basically replied fairly to say they can't discuss individual circumstances due to you know privacy and such so maybe Dylan Borland has reached out maybe he hasn't but I would like to think if not they have at least reached out to him because if you're an organization going out to the public and asking for money to do with UFOs to help whistleblowers to me that looked like a whistleblower in need and I don't mean full-on pudsy bear for those in the UK who are used to like children in need you've got a guy there who potentially does need help financially and with work and I'm sure there's a lot of folks involved in this topic that could help with that kind of thing as well and yeah so it's not all book deals and documentaries for everyone that comes out and speaks I'm just gonna throw into that because I think we need to consider it as well you know the disclosure funds you know UEP disclosure fund we have I've seen Michael Herrera selling coffee to raise money to help whistleblowers and stuff and the one question I have like I totally agree with you but how much money are these things making like are they making enough because you know say Dylan he's really experienced guy amazing achievements and so his salary is probably pretty big do they have like a hundred grand a year to give to a whistleblower and how many of those can they support you know so again there's that little reality piece in there but I totally agree with the principle of what you're saying like this is the person that group is meant to help yeah so there's all different questions for another day around that Dan but then around so is it even a worthwhile organization I'm not attacking the UEP disclosure fund but any like that it's like you saying Dan well I'm gonna I'm gonna sell patches for Dylan Borland and by the time I take off any costs and postage and da da da I'm gonna be able to give 50 cents to him and I've sold a hundred so I'm gonna send him 50 dollars is that even worth doing yeah like that that's not what he's like work things aren't that bad you know so it's almost like there's there's a weighing up of the worthwhile of these but that's and that's perhaps where it's difficult for an organization like UEP disclosure fund to be asking for donations when they can't really show you if they could come out and said Dylan Borland we're reaching out to you or Dylan Borland's in touch with us I think they see an uptick in donations yeah sure it's that transparency piece isn't it around these organizations you know we came up with Sol as well you know if you're raising money just let us know what you're spending that money on like it'll go really far to to indeed you in the public eye and to get people to support you and that's gonna go really far to support and whistleblowers yeah Nancy Mace says at the end that she's not got to the crash retrieval program stuff yet as she runs out of time frustratingly and I don't think we really got back to that did we not entirely know but she didn't make a good point where she said if you don't know the program name you can't get the info and I think it's pertinent to just bring up because it's that weasel language again you know it's like me calling your house your wife answers and me saying is Andy there and she says no because she knows you as Andrew yeah we've got to do something about this you know and I think ultimately yeah yeah she's like you say Andy right or honey or something like that I don't know what your pet names are for each other a lot worse than that but you're right yeah and that that language piece Dan I don't even know if you want to mention it now I can't remember exactly where it comes up but the the idea and we've talked about this before this isn't new or exclusive or anything or weird geniuses for thinking up we didn't but the idea that language is being used just to get around you know we've got no conclusive proof of NHI or we've no conclusive proof of alien and it's like well yeah but we've got they they know for example they being arrow that this isn't human but they don't maybe know exactly where it's from but they're not coming out and saying that because they're answering the question to say yeah we've no proof that it's alien we've no proof that it's et actually we don't know what it is but you know they're not xenomorphs so we're not calling them aliens that that kind of obfuscation is being used and I don't think that should be a shock to anyone yeah for sure and I think that's why we've you can see these language changes going you know UFOs associate with aliens so now they start using UAP and ET you know is what it is so now they're starting to broaden the net and just say NHI you know anything not human as we know it and I think that's the goal of the UAPDA and things like that to broaden that language you know technologies of unknown origin that's really neutral kind of toothless but you know it doesn't say where they're from it just says we don't know where they're from and it's not us yeah Crockett comes in Jasmine Crockett I'm they're all representatives or congressmen or women here folks I've just got notes to do with surnames and things so I'm doing our best it's not a slight on your favorite congressman or women if we miss miss name them or mistitle them and there's a lot I think you should just give them random titles you know dr. Burchard uh sir sir Crockett or madam Crockett I guess Crockett I think wrestling because of Jim Jim uh yeah sure nice yeah yeah um so uh she asks Spielberger so we get um Joe Spielberger sounds like Timo Spielberg doesn't it um so it's like yeah um I showed Susan that message the night before the hearing to say oh there's another witness coming tomorrow and I'm going to bed I've not got time to look at it but I'll deal with it in the morning and she was like Spielberger is that even a real name and I'm like yeah it's a little bit made up sounding but yeah it's like we've got I've got this witness but we can't use his real name what should we call him Joe Spielberger yep and they've went with that um imagine it was Spielberg and it was just yeah yeah I've got like um my notes are about shit here sorry folks because I think I was messaging some of them from the disclosure fund at this point but um she talks about over classification um Spielberger mentioned rather timely the the 9-11 commission report on how over classification tried to cover up what could what could have been done to stop the attacks on that day um let's not go into why it was also yeah but it was also because the different departments had different bits of information that the complete picture would have told them exactly what was going to happen and when and how to stop it and they weren't talking to each other so that over classification prevented them from doing anything bad as well and if you're listening to this folks on 9-11 because it's coming out uh pretty much that day very sorry if you lost anyone on that day 24 year anniversary um and all that stuff so so yeah not particularly nice uh very poignant for a lot of folks as well um so that the conversation here Dan I think you were correct earlier Spielberger does a really good job it's not the NHI route here we're talking policy we're talking over classification whistleblower protections it's not sexy but it's probably really important um I likened this to the Man United midfield that had Ji Sung Park and um Dad and Fletcher in it where they done a lot of really dirty work that wasn't appreciated till they weren't there but they did allow Rooney Ronaldo and Tevez up front to do all the the glamorous stuff that got the goals um and as a as a non-football follower that was almost complete gibberish to me I recognized a few names Rooney I know him yeah there was people in the midfield that weren't particularly glamorous but they were really important to the engine of the overall machine because if they didn't do those jobs the ones up front that got all the headlines wouldn't have been able to do what they'd done sure so it was important to bring this back a little bit um she applauded how much good um there was and how it was like it was like actually governing and the hearing sorry she talked about the hearing being like actual governing it was almost it came across refreshing that they're getting to do their jobs without bickering or squabbling or red versus blue and all that kind of stuff that goes on across all political spectrums it was like we're getting to do our job here and it's a good thing um um so yeah even though that was a little political dig I thought it was a nice point because she was making it in a good way for me um I I just want to pull her up though um she said to the the witnesses I do want to thank you all for all of your stories don't call them stories sure yeah sharing your testimony like I get it just clumsy language but yeah experiences whatever but yeah yeah and Tim Burchett comes in um he was great today I I mean I have a lot to say about his politics and stuff I'm not going to go into it because that's not what we're talking about here today but I think Burchett had a really good showing today I really like Tim Burchett I I don't go into the politics stuff regardless but um I feel almost sorry for Tim at times because even when I last spoke to him um on interview he he was a little bit dejected I think at trying to get stuff done and being stonewalled and he talked about how even at his level of he was quite self-deprecating here as well but I think he was like on number one on the list but number number one in your heart but number 437th on the list he kind of jokes about his position um I liked how he said I see some friends in the audience but I also see some enemies I've got my eye on you yes who like I wish he pointed at them and just said these guys are keeping tabs on us and stopping us doing so I said one of the listeners was there and messaging me during the event and he said he seemed to look over at the press pack oh okay I think it he said they all laughed as well though so I think there was a little bit okay yeah um so he starts with nap and him who says you know the money's going out of government and into contractors which makes it harder to find he asked nap about working with the russians gets very james bond that's now nap mentions being able to get information out of russia I love the fact when they ask him how he managed it he talked about um he noticed the russians when they were classifying piles of documents they only stamped the top document so he just removed the classified page and carried the rest out because they weren't stamped yeah very very human error right like like someone uploading something to foyer that they shouldn't have or something like that it's like yeah it's just people in these positions and they make these mistakes and sometimes they work to our benefit and uh the calvin ufo exactly that you know the system allowed a copy to be made and kept and then we found it three years later yeah humans top to bottom in this folks and regardless that's the thing for me even at the the murkiest depths of this where I'm guessing there are some really scary people that make some really horrible scary decisions and this and I mean the the real few that truly know what's going on or deal with this at any level um like they're still human beings and will still be prone to human error judgment mistakes no matter how you know terminator they may come across or or behave and what they do and nap talked about an incident in russia where a ufo entered launch codes close to world war three at that point and butch it runs out of times at time but he says you know who has the information um nap says contractors like lockheed and the usual suspects um not the first time nap would name names here but yeah nap was quite happy to and I think that's probably the beauty of bringing in a george nap where he's not bound by ndas and security clearances you know and loyalties to a department it's you know it's just what he knows and what he's gathered over the years and sure that's dan got its downside as well to well he could have been investigating 30 years of hearsay not the band but you know he could have been investigating a lot of nonsense but i don't think so i think there was a lot of good stuff came from it i'm sure he got given nonsense and he didn't publish it you know like we don't we don't see that side of things um people just assume that george publishes everything that he's given and that's that's not true you know we we already have seen that he didn't report the story of the video that we were shown during this hearing or one of the videos we were shown during this hearing yeah so uh so yeah with 2017 yep and it's worth reminding folks nap had the story um before kane blumenthal and cooper um for for osap and stuff in 2017 and you know i i'm sure there's a whole big story around it but he could have published that first and didn't so you know there there is that element to it as well um yeah nap doesn't go about telling everyone that every single interview that i could have done the 2017 article because nap knew himself there's a greater good tier there's a bigger reach um yeah so yeah stephen greer like that's exactly the kind of thing that greer would do um nap also mentioned dr greer have some respect sorry and just to be clear when yeah have i said it here before that when kurt and i interviewed him he demanded to be told dr greer uh just going to put that comment in context for people that haven't heard that um yeah george lane lockheed here great that he's naming names this this is what everyone wanted right um but again he emphasizes that the people at lockheed align because they were told to they are doing their jobs they have mortgages they have families to look after so they don't want to rock the boat and i always think of that as well when people say where are the janitors from these ufo programs you know the cleaners all those people they're being looked after really cushy and and probably they use cheap labor as well so these people equally don't don't want to blow the lid on it for that reason um but i also want to tell people to watch a movie called the man who saved the world it is on youtube and it does cover a different incident where icbms in russia were activated and they had to make this decision and it's all about the man who made the decision why he made it um and you get a good sense of of the feeling in the room when these alerts go off and the icbms come online uh what the hell you've got to do um harrowing documentary highly recommend you watch it uh very relevant um so uh yes lauren bobert comes in um everyone's favorite uh i just didn't think in the last one she had a particularly good showing but dan you didn't mention she was better on this one yeah like she didn't mention hybrids she was a lot more down to earth there was one comment she made of asking about uh how we get past the van allen belt the radiation belt in space which is part of uh you know the moon landing conspiracy but she didn't make that obvious so it just sounded like an innocuous question to anyone that doesn't know so she was yeah much much more on task today and i think in line with the people around her um she asked wiggins if any trans medium object can disappear without a sound that he knows of he said no and they cleared up the reporting around the event a little bit she asks jeff about the reporting he talks about records being destroyed not just about ufos but in general and that's a larger issue that's it's worth being addressed here she asks um db christ who who am i forgetting db oh yeah dylan borland i've put db and i'm like the rock star yeah yeah about being a geospatial intel officer and he has seen ufos and has he seen ufos operating over us airspace i think she's getting at you know with satellite imagery and stuff like that he says he hasn't unfortunately um and she asks uh j s spielberger about whistleblowers having appeals processes to counter retaliations and he talked about like i mentioned earlier the bottom line is they are forced to rely on protections from the same agencies who are retaliating against them brutal yeah dan i'm coming to you to report an issue about you to you and what you're going to do with it to help me deal with it you're like absolutely fuck all i'll be doing nothing yeah um hr is that's the company not to help the employees and and this is what we'll see and now it was also interesting that dylan said that his report to the ic uh inspector general was made credible not urgent which is different to grush's where we heard it was deemed credible and urgent and a number of people around that time tried to say well you know credible and urgent is just you know it's a standard of evidence that he's put forward it's nothing to do with the uap thing but now we're seeing this different designation for another person that's kind of saying things that you know it's pretty big what dylan said today uh so i don't understand this this distinction between the two things if it's just a standard paperwork thing that they do uh that that's really a little confusing might just be something i don't know but also a little sus um yeah the records being destroyed are a no-no and i just want to tell people to support places like the uap archives with david marler um and other archives around the world because that's exactly their job is to go i know these are being destroyed in three years let's get everything we can and we'll keep them so the federal government doesn't uh you know just throw them in the trash or or shred them because there's nothing important here and sometimes it's really innocuous uh you know people just cleaning out closet spaces and the video is just you know a speck of light and it doesn't really give you much information so they throw it away but that is data and we do need that data because it tells us where these things show up when they're showing up what's near you know there's a lot you can extrapolate from from that kind of information yeah i've got marler on david marler on sunday nice to speak to him it's been a it's been a it's been a while um representative eric burleson comes in who has probably taken over the mantle for the ufo topic i think politically and kind of ran with it hasn't he between him and luna but burleson seems a lot more boots on the ground um in terms of going to visit the mummies and stuff and he's getting into the weeds of the topic a little bit so yeah it's like introducing the topic to your mate and within a year he has gone to like the roswell conference and awakening in the uk and off to the salt foundation and he's over to san marino you know and sponsoring the galileo project all in the space of a year you're like christ you have gone into this in a big way burleson's kind of done that all the well being a congressman so um fair play to him um he says he's really come around to this phenomena he's he's open to the ideas of aliens but not totally in on it i just want to add there dan afterwards he was on a show called washington watch with tony perkins and he does actually say on that um i don't think this phenomenon is alien it's likely something else but as he's talking the guy kind of cuts them off and moves them on not deliberately but more of our we're running out of time for this segment can you hurry up kind of thing um so that that is something that while he's he's big on this he is quite keen to say maybe that's a protection thing maybe that is like a maybe he knows and he's just like look it's not alien it's something it's something else but and it just keeps him at a safe distance from the conversation while being able to get involved what do you think on that yeah i think so you know he he wants to take in everything he can before he makes a decision and i can i can respect that you know think what you want about the mummies in south america the best way to to understand something is to go and experience it right and and he's really doing that and yeah great he's doing a really good job was interesting that he said that the the uapda wasn't put into the ndaa in the house because it was deemed like non-germane which is just not relevant um relevant to what like how is it irrelevant to defense it's really weird it seems like you know mike turner has left the building but we're still having issues put putting this legislation in for for whatever reason um right the video dan so the video we got our second video um we were actually told there was going to be three videos um one was new but we ended up just seeing two of which this was the new one the uss jackson one had been shown on weaponized i believe and perhaps other other platforms um before we before we get into this one i just want to point out that when chief wiggins was talking about that video he said that you know the the operator of the sapphire system had to slew the camera into the craft so when i'm watching the video that wiggins brought and i'm seeing the erratic movements of the object without more context and more data we can't see whether it's the object moving or whether it's the camera moving uh it's just another example of how you know half transparency in some ways is almost worse than full transparency yeah or worse than height i should say right how to go into this because if you're not online folks this this has ended up being quite a volatile element of the conversation i think what i'll do dan is i was thinking of putting it here but we'll just keep talking and at the end of the show i'm going to clip on the end there's a 25 minute interview with one of the the listeners from the discord chat who is ex british military ammunitions expert and he really kindly but anonymously has come on to explain what he thinks is happening in the video from his background and expertise really good dan you saw his explanations in the discord and i'm not telling anyone what to think we are just going to share our opinion here and you can hear that at the end folks so even if you think dan and andy are talking shit now do listen to that 25 minutes at the end and because he also shares a ufo experience he had just last year which is really interesting to to try and give you the idea that look i'm not just debunking this topic here's what i think of the video but separately here's something really weird that happened to me and why i'm now into this so much and but separately so what happens is burleson introduces a video and how he introduces it which is important he says i want to queue up a video i've been given he gives details of the video telling us that it's a of an mq9 drone tracking an orb or an other object that's what he says it's an orb or an object off the coast of yemen in 2024 dan was it yet 2024 um and he mentions that you're going to see another drone which isn't on camera so you've got the drone from above imagine the the go is it the go fast video yeah yeah the go fast video where you've got that shot from above object in the middle of the camera water underneath flare infrared um black and white look bloody yeah yes but um we'll get into it so uh he mentions you're going to see a missile being fired by the other um the other uh side of things um sorry two seconds don't even know how that happens you're going to see a missile being fired by the other side um of the of the screen and he says i'll let you see what happens next okay what happens and i'm going to put the video on screen at this point as the missile hits the object that we've been told as an orb or an object at first glance dan i'm going to give you my reaction the the object gets hit it looks like the object takes the hit some bits break off but it keeps on going the camera cuts away to burleson that's a technical issue then cuts back and we've got a different view so that was a little technical hitch in the in the arena and the in the hall sorry and then we've got a wider view of the object kind of tumbling away but carrying on so what we're made to believe here or just from watching it what i looked at was shit that missile has hit that object bounced off it potentially done a little bit of damage but it's carried on flying that's pretty incredible so um dan can you just tell me what you thought when you first saw it i i was astonished that was my immediate reaction and and it mirrored i don't know if people have watched the news nation segment with ross where he he is watching the video and he has a host with him his producer and the producer is you know really good at her job but she's not really into the subject i think it's clear this moment you know they were both on screen ross said oh that's new her face is a picture it changes from just like you know smile happy-go-lucky having a conversation to browse furrowed and she just says oh god and and i think that says everything about this video right that free of context that was the reaction that it was designed and intended to give would that be fair yes can i tell you at the end of my note i'll read my exact note i wrote as i watched it dan and burleson shows video of mq9 drone tracking an orb off the coast of yemen another drone launches a missile we see in the video the hillfire missile hits the orb but it spins a bit then carries on wow wow wow wow wow wow so that was my initial reaction good dog impression and the discord thanks and the discord chat even the really skeptical folks and even the really skeptical folks were kind of blown away by it and we all went shit have we just got a really good video from a hearing like that's surprising and it was just it went online really quickly everyone was sharing it and pictures and stuff like that um however did we bring it up here yeah what do you think yeah i'll let you go for it i was just i was just gonna say that this is this video is what has been focused on like if you go on online and you search ufo hearings is this video so it's getting out there and this is the shiny stuff that people want to see and they've grabbed it and propagated it you know the great statements from borland and stuff like that they're all being left to the wayside this it's all about this video yeah so um in the discord chat after it folks i wasn't really looking at too much of the online commentary because i was trying to be in the discord but also watch the hearing one of the listeners like i say at the end will go into great detail it's 25 minutes long and i really appreciate that um on on why they believe if you actually watch it and i'm not telling you for the love of christ the shit i've had today off of people online um it's fine it is what it is it's just the online it happens in any i'm a football fan dan i've told that enough on here it happens when you share an opinion on a football yeah yeah it happens when you share an opinion on a fucking football player or something right as well people get really heated and he's explained basically this is more than likely he thinks 99.9% a stationary object he talks about the parallax effect where we're looking at the movement comes from the drone and the air moving not the object the object will be barely moving if at all the missile if you really look up close to it as well dan i don't think this is being unfair and this is something people posted online quite quick the missile doesn't hit off it and seem to deflect it goes through it and then you see what it looks like and this came up quite quickly three orbs coming off of the object and then following it or it's debris coming off of the balloon and bear in mind folks we're not talking about a party balloon here i imagine it's a kind of rigid material or semi-rigid material it's huge as well yeah it would be big um but we don't know any of this and that's something we'll come back to it then so the three bits that come off it you you could see and people online are certainly doing this you could see it then follows the object or if indeed the object is stationary and the missile has passed through it then it's just bits of material floating next to it in mid-air you only see that for a couple of seconds at most before the camera changes and you don't see it again so there's a hell of a lot of assuming going on on all parties here okay however the the missile as well people are saying this hellfire missile and this is what attracted the listener to come and comment on it because he's like i don't want to be a debunker however i know hellfire missiles he mentioned two types and he went one of them does explode so either it was one of the explosive missiles and because the object was so light when it got to it it's punctured through and not blown up because there's not enough impact on the missile to register that it's hit something or you can see pictures online of the same missile that has no warhead as such or explosive device built into it and it's got blades as part of it and it would just shred through the balloon and cause bits of it to come off and those blades kind of they come out the middle like if you imagine you know the long cylinder of the missile they come out of the middle like a dog chain you know one of those dog chains for pitbulls and the big the comically big ones for mccarton yeah but they're you know these missiles are going to be like it's thick so these things are going to be really long so they're going to slice things out I've seen them used um nice I've seen them used uh in the middle east in the wars out there you know you you can see pictures of what it does to like cars um you know they'll use them to to target an object when they don't want the explosion so if they only want to kill one person in a car they'll fire at the driver's seat you know and it only takes out that one person to be clear it damages the rest of the car on the ground immeasurably and there's definitely other injuries to the people around but you know if you're firing one of these things in the sky at something there's not going to be a lot of collateral damage you're going to shred whatever you come across um and there's not going to be an explosion and to speak to this person's point as well about the things that come off the object when I first saw those it looks like they're following right but you correctly said we see them for a couple of seconds if they did happen to fall they and they're this light material they're not going to be falling for you know a good 30-40 seconds uh you're not going to notice the decrease in size as they get to the floor so the parallax here could cause a trick with the movement and and the way that those are kind of floating down and not doing so quickly uh you know it could be just one of these videos that is a training exercise edited to look strange to someone that is unfamiliar so I'm really glad that you've that guy came forward and that he's going to be on here chatting about it yeah and listen we don't know you have to make up your own mind and I've seen a lot of folks online really pushing the video and sensationalizing it and I think the message from some folks after has changed I saw afterwards um Marek von Rennenkamp and Lou Elizondo both on News Nation and to be fair they largely push the idea that we shouldn't let any video regardless of what it shows take away from the content of the hearing and what's being said and what's been trying to achieve um and and they do say and I think it might have been Elizondo not Rennenkamp who mentions we have had videos like this presented before which have been debunked or misidentified or later analyzed properly and we find it something else so that's refreshing because I think we have to take a step back here and there's a lot of emotion in the room because people feel they're being attacked when they're told this is probably something else I would love this to be a UFO then I don't think it is from if you really break down but I'm no expert in flair I'm not a mathematician I'm not a physics guy I don't know what I'm looking at maybe it is and we're qualified they call podcasters when they want this image analyzed right that's what they do yeah maybe it's an NHI craft orb and it's hit and these three bits follow along behind it for a brief second before it cuts off um or maybe it's a balloon in a training exercise where a missile's gone through it someone was really unhappy with me online Dan because they had asked yesterday and I probably spent too much time and energy online replying to people you know why would the US waste so much money firing a missile at a balloon and I posted the picture of the Chinese spy balloon being blown up I was just gonna say yeah exactly they didn't like my attitude and I was like I'm just saying it's been done but yeah so I think when the emotion dies down folks um and that's really the point I was trying to make I I think I'd love to see some analysts get on a podcast and discuss it side by side like adults and go here's why I think this and have them both go no no if you look at this the issue though Dan to skip to after the hearings it was only after the hearings on interviews I believe News Nation Burleson confirmed there was no chain of custody for the video it was dead drop to him the day of the day before sorry um the day of the hearing the day before the hearing he had no idea who it was from completely anonymous and he had no time to check it or analyse it or vet it so he basically admitted I had to just put it in for me don't put it in or you have to give that context before you show it yeah I mean again just sort of one more thing sure what really frustrates me now and there's a pattern of this and this goes across multiple different shows podcasts blogs newspapers tv shows hearings whatever people are really quick to put stuff out and claim it's one thing but very quickly really quickly a couple of folks online can say it's another sometimes they can't and that's the good stuff or the anomalous stuff and that's the ones you go oh so that's really worth investigating but if you're a UFO person which I'm going to go out on a limb Dan and say you and I both are you can't criticize debunkers who just want to debunk everything if you're going to take every single video at face value and say it's a UFO yeah because it's not completely agree with you like we need to be careful in how we're presenting these things because it's fine for things to be prosaic you know great we get them out of the data pile and off the table that's a positive thing but when they're presented in a context that makes them appear to be anomalous and you kind of lean into that you know when it's out of UFO hearing as well then people are going to have issues with it because they're going to get very excited about it and very passionate and we all have our bias because we just do you know we're trying to kind of get a balance between being informed and also saying hey I'm not an expert you know I'm just telling you what I see you know the camera in itself does not work like the phone cameras we have it's showing you different colors different things you know it's black and white one thing doesn't mean what you think it means and so for casual observers i.e. me and you or you know someone passing a buy on tiktok or spreads or x or whatever they don't know and and they've got to be we've got to be okay to to say we don't know like i'm leaning this way but i truly don't know you know scale of one to ten six i'm convinced it's strange but i truly don't know that's okay and we need that more because this isn't the first time this has happened like you said and i'm just going to speak to one idea that i've seen out there and and i want to hear how legitimate you think the idea is because i'm like huh maybe i don't know yeah see i'm using those words um being dead dropped a picture or a video before an event where someone is no doubt excited to to show people new things and to say things uh this isn't the first time it's happened and i saw someone online point out like this is an active attempt to discredit people who are at the front of the movement what do you think about that idea that someone gave you know elizondo that that crop circle picture or the crop irrigation picture i should say not crop circle um and also gave builders in this video because they knew they were excited and that they would go and show it in this forum and that when it's shown as prosaic the credibility's gone okay maybe it's one thing and i've seen podcasters do it right let's use us um low-level pond scum um where they've jumped in with a guest or a video or a picture for clicks and views without any real checking or they've stuck the word bombshell in a thumbnail okay that kind of stuff yeah cool but if you are at senior level and you're congressman or woman intel officer whatever it might be you need to do better it's not because these hearings were really good dan and we're still going through it now right and we are going back and forward over all the great stuff that was said every single clip i've watched of the hearings after has had that video running over and over and over again that's what the public are going to see and all it's now going to take and you can get conspiratorial with it like like you've kind of done there however it's not an unfair point it's not an unfair point if that now gets confirmed to be a balloon it's it shafts the whole it undoes so much of the good work i don't want anyone coming to me if it isn't going oh you were right and i'm not right i'm just saying i think in my opinion based on speaking to some people and let me just say folks i've spoken to enough decent ufo researchers in the last 24 hours who think the same but maybe don't want to say it online just yet but there's a lot of folk out there jumping on tv and saying otherwise and if it was me and i was asked to do this face doesn't get on tv much for a good reason but if i was asked to do radio or a tv show or anything like that about the video i'd be really fair and say it was really interesting at first glance on a second glance it looks like more work needs done because it could potentially be a little bit of parallax going on a moving object looking at a stationary target all that kind of stuff you have to be fair otherwise long term it just does damage to the subject so you've got two options or three options really one you jump in all guns blazing and we either get proof of alien life great or we don't you look a fucking idiot and just do damage to the topic selfishly but for your own means and celebrity two you take a more measured approach and you go right it could be something interesting but we need to do more analysis data science whatever you want to call it and you go from there and you let the work come out or you just go no nothing's alien and you're a total debunker and everything's ridiculous it just depends for me where you want to sit I like to be the second one I just think this time I moved a little bit quicker to go no I think it's a balloon and plenty of folks did and I had people again with big twitter accounts relatively speaking messaging me yesterday why I thought that and I just copied and pasted and went this is what the guy in my discord said here's his background you don't have to believe it but and even they went huh and one of them is quite prominent online explaining stuff as UAP or UFOs and even they went yeah do you know what rational so yeah yeah no I totally hear what you're saying and I think it's correct you know the message the headline message of the hearing is we need to protect whistleblowers but the headline coverage post hearing is look at this video of an alien basically right of a genuine UFO UFO and so the rug gets pulled if it turns out to be prosaic where had Bullison in the setting said this is anonymously censored to me I don't know what it is but it speaks to the fact that we can't get information on things like this and we can't solve them so whether it's weird or it's not or it's just an adversary attacking you know the borders of our country there's a potential national security issue here and a potential failure here as well and people lose their lives you know it's not about whether the video is alien or not it's about whether the whistleblowers are protective enough to bring the information to people who can analyze it properly and at the moment they're not and that message is kind of lost and it will be because it'll just be oh it was a balloon they all got fooled again and it's like well no a lot of us didn't you know we're just talking about the other stuff from the hearing that was was more impressive than a grainy video and the coming weeks and months then I want people coming back and me going ha idiot you you totally messed up on this one turns out it was truly anomalous it was a great video here's all the reasons it wasn't a training balloon or test event or something like that and I will be so happy and like I say it's very similar and I talk about it so often Dan but my love for football right now my football team has a manager that is failing badly it's not going well and everyone everyone almost in the club wants him gone but the owners are hanging on there and they think otherwise they think it's going to work out the support don't think so I would love to be wrong I would love at the end of the season my club to have won a load of trophies and you know the manager and the owners to turn around and go see you guys didn't know what you were talking about and I would love it as a supporter because we've been successful and got what we wanted I just worry this is something that could do damage because like you say if I'm if I'm a gatekeeper if I'm one of the shadowy cabal and I I dead dropped and make you know what maybe it was somebody well-known in UFO community that gave the video over and just never done the checking or vetting but if I'm if I'm a gatekeeper or a secret keeper Dan I'm laughing just now yeah I'm I'm loving it because I'm going oh we got away with one here job done right and they're tearing themselves apart over it so like I say I'll let the expert speak at the end but please make up your own minds and I would genuinely love to hear from folks Dan and if you can come back on pretty soon because I think we'll leave the questions today because there's so many to get through we're not even finished hearing yet and it's been a while right so yeah we'll do we'll do like an AMA soon yeah yeah yeah we'll go through everyone's questions and maybe another few days we'll give some stuff off the back of it but please listen to to what we're just calling them S just the letter S wants to stay anonymous at the end has to say and if you think otherwise or if you know someone that could come on and speak not someone who I'm and I've seen some folks and they've got like galactic federation and their title telling me why I'm wrong about this right I'm not wrong that's not right I'm I'm just sharing my opinion that's that's it exploring is what you're doing you're trying to make your mind up based on the information you have and that's fine and I hate when people attack each other for those kind of things it's like let them learn like that's that's a great thing to happen so yeah I totally agree people just need to say I don't know let the chips fall where they may yeah and go and buy a copy of atlas of you no I'm not doing that um so then next up um we had uh the the shortest note I've got for the whole hearing um miss lee comes in is it summer summer lee sorry I've not got the name full names um miss lee comes in who is do do do do yes summer lee um really poor used us as a political platform spoke so quickly we're so panicked nothing to add not the time and place for it and that's all I've got to see on that one dan yeah I I just we touched on this bit a little bit before the hearings and I was just saying to Andy about how the environment and the atmosphere in the US right now everyone's on a knife edge wondering what's going to happen um and I think that came through in miss lee's uh questions which was a shame because everyone else was playing ball and being part bipartisan and they could have spent the whole time arguing really easily uh but that's not what this was you know spielberger did great in response to her you know he he said that uh they had 800 tips on the dod given service members extended wait times to get care they need from a rack uh and so he he's essentially using this moment where she's trying to score political points um to highlight the amount of whistleblowing that goes on you know it's not just one or two people every year 800 on one thing and it enabled them to to highlight the abuse of that security uh process and and to actually get them the help they needed so yeah spielberger was wonderful uh miss lee less so but um you know he did great yeah um mr crane comes in and one of the comments in the chat was frazier's let himself go um which i liked um are you good for time at the minute by the way yeah sorry i'm just looking my light behind me is coming down lower and i don't know what's going on but it's fine i'm just gonna look a little weird like moving skin on a craft ride like lava it's not an abduction yeah just in case folks are curious on the youtube um so crane asks um if they were scared or hesitant to come forward because of their stories he kind of gives a generalized sweeping statement won't lie folks at this point my notes get a little bit more shaky because it was going on a while i think at this point dan some of the questioning gets a little bit either repetitive or less specialized it does come back around a little bit more um so forgive me if my notes aren't all there um there's a variety of answers here based on that because um largely because others have paved the way or they were given permission to speak i think wigan says by the navy so he's grateful for that and that's got to be acknowledged um at this point i say i've got the note here yeah at this point i feel some of the folks coming in are covering a little bit of the same ground and that's to be expected like i say people coming in and out they don't all meet before and share questions i think to your point dan if two or three congressmen or women could meet up take all the questions and and ask them they could maybe filter through some of them at that point use chat gbt and say take out the repetitive stuff here it can go badly though to just to that point when gillibrand and i forget the other representatives name they both grilled john koslowski from arrow and kirk patrick and it was really toothless and it didn't go anywhere i feel like luna burles and birchette they wouldn't be toothless but it can go the other way as well you know um the only other note i've got from crane he says uh he wrote to the dod and department of defense in july 2025 so just two months ago about the treatment of david grush and has yet had no reply luna immediately comes in and says we are going to be following that straight up so yeah excellent wonderful yeah that that's an action piece there isn't it so we should see something from luna following that up and seeing what their response is so yeah actionable love it great um anything um anything else on crane for you no uh it was the letter for me that was the highlight there cool um representative gill who is the guy who looks like superman oh wait sorry yeah i forgot nap i think said something important to mr crane um he said that he thinks that the secret keepers hid everything because they didn't want to panic the public way back when and over time it's kind of grown into a bit of a monster where they're racing to be adversaries and also keep it secret uh so yeah there's a that's nap's idea of why the cover-up is happening we always get the why question there is yeah and you know i felt generally through the through it um the witnesses as as expected they're not public speakers um answered the questions they were asked in various ways and to various degrees of success i thought nap was really good at making the most of any questions he was asked and managing to bring in stuff that he maybe wanted to get in there and fair play to him he wasn't mentioning on weaponized i done this or it wasn't like self-promotion he was trying to get names places events contractors and and get the stuff to the forefront so it's there so yeah i thought that was a good job and that probably comes directly from his work as a journalist because he knows how to you know manage the response and and get stuff in even if it's not asked about you know it's the opposite of what politicians usually do you'll ask them one thing and they'll kind of weasel their way around it uh george is using this to his benefit here yeah um representative gill like i say dude who looks like superman and he gives his time to luna and then burleson i've put yeah so luna is given a minute's time and she asks nap how he got the files out of russia or how she knows the files sorry how he knows the files from russia weren't bullshit he said he gave the the documents to robert bigelow and james lakatsky and he did mention someone else i think as well i don't know if you've got that dan glenn gaffney he mentioned was that who he gave the documents to yes yeah uh i think so maybe it's definitely another name he mentioned though i'm sure or it was an organization as well i mean he says they checked over the documents analyzed them bigelow and bass that's what he was saying there um he he gave it so yeah bigelow and lakatsky and everyone had the files the russian files translated uh so they could see whether they were bullshit or not basically and he said grush he said grush um vouched for their authenticity as well yes which is new information right nothing new comes from this stuff burleson commands yeah uh commands burleson commands chief wiggins burleson commends chief wiggins on coming forward while serving really important worth shouting out he's the first person to do so that's an extra level of bravery i suppose is the word there i know it's a strong word but he's got to go back to his job having done this now and deal with the higher ups and everything else so fair play to him for that um he he's also not the first person to say that he hasn't had blowback uh you know i know several other i see people who have reported this stuff and they say you know it's it's been fine for them um so it doesn't seem like everyone's equal you know if you say a big thing then you get a lot of blowback if you say the general kind of wishy-washy thing of you know we are not alone then that's kind of okay because they can wiggle their way around that yeah and maybe it's the behavior around it as well and i don't mean that in a positive or negative way that someone's done the wrong thing but perhaps if someone's pride more than was was wanted maybe if it is just a case of jackson had an incident he reported it properly he went about this the right way and he was like i'd like to come forward and speak about this that's fine but then you've got a matthew brown who goes digging and really is unhappy about what he's found a david grush who was really unhappy about what he was hearing what he found rippled a few waves that brings more of a retaliatory nature to it depending on who you're exposed to and all that kind of stuff as well potentially um borland says and this is the the word and stuff comes in here that they won't confirm et scientifically because we would need to go to their planet and basically see that et species there to confirm that oh well the blue avians come from septali c because we know they come from there and that's why they can get around saying yeah they're not even my address now septali c and nevada um but yeah so i get that and it's a misrepresentation of the full truth um for that so yeah anything else on the gil time to lunarty burleson i i just wonder you know the retaliation stuff we we always talk about the legacy program as if it's one thing but if they are you know their own thing unto themselves um and we bring into account how often these you know heads of department and heads of organizations clash and they want their own kind of you know spin off of it i wonder if there is just one program or whether there's multiple working against each other and the retaliation depends on which one you get some are nicer than others uh could could well be yeah um mr biggs comes in as andy biggs i believe yes andy biggs um he comes in uh remember him from the previous um i liked his statement about no matter your opinion on uap every member of the public should be alarmed by the testimony here today so again i like that just bringing it back into the room you know regardless of videos regardless of what you think regardless of where you're coming from this this is something generally you should set up and take notice of um very much on the side of the whistleblowers reminding us the title of the hearing is there for a reason and again folks restoring public trust through uap transparency and whistleblower protection um biggs says we should look into arrow and luna says with a smile she'd be happy to subpoena kirkpatrick and this gets a round of applause um i'm just not massive i'm just not massively keen on the physical applause in the room a little bit little bit showy and that's that was my thing and people might be sure do you know what i mean though it's just like come on um yeah and i think there was a lot of relief in the applause you know everyone's been screaming for this to happen so i think the room is full of uap people you know they're in this every day so i think that's where it comes from but also yeah totally it kind of turns into a bit of a show right like is it we is this theater or is this a serious discussion well and that's it because ultimately you're looking at people potentially talking about you know um oh shit what was the word i used before for borland talked about treason um talking about death penalties talking about imprisonment talking about lying under oath when it comes to kirkpatrick you know long-term imprisonment for people um is it really a hooping and a hollering type setting probably not and it detracts a lot and then if you're a member of the public watching this for the first time and say you've got a mate that you who is like a gary nolan type he's you know award-winning immunologist and you're really trying to get him into the ufo topic and he sits down and watches this and goes why are they cheering and clapping at the name of someone being subpoenaed there's there's just a look potentially to that so again optics dan is one of our favorite words isn't it um yeah and borland again repeats i know what i know i know what i've seen i know what's true god bless him yeah absolutely essentially alluding to you know if someone anyone talks about this and they hide anything he knows that they're lying uh which suggests he has like a level of proof or knowledge now that he didn't before so you know get him into a skiff and luna does say uh towards the end that um you know they they're gonna get him immunity to get him into the skiff uh we we missed something that i just want to touch on uh mr perry when he was speaking to wiggins um he he was kind of pushing the angle that they could be u.s government things you know craft and he he asks wiggins is it an accident that they showed you these objects uh because you seeing them suggest that maybe the government is okay just blowing their load on on all of these he doesn't say blowing the load by the way that's my language uh blow uh on on these kind of super secret craft and they just wouldn't be doing that so it that it by its very nature suggests something other i thought that was important to bring up yes uh nicholas begich comes in um he asks dylan borland about why in a skiff information would or could be held from congress um borland's quite good with naming names too and he says he would need to speak to the dni uh director of director of national intelligence yes right um tulsi gabbard about that um uh begich then asks the panel if they would name the i like this one because he really kept it really generalized across the board and he said would any of you name the gatekeepers involved nap i love it is the first one to unmute and you can kind of see them all sit back and cross arms and it looked like this was the moment nap had been waiting for like please ask me to name a name do you think this was arranged beforehand dan what nap knew it was coming yeah um so ask the panel if they would name gatekeepers nap comes in to names dr james rider at lockheed martin and he adds he doesn't fault contractors for doing what they were asked to do um by their bosses um the cia told them to keep it quiet these people a lot of them would like an off-ramp on this and that's something i've heard before uh ross cool tart a while back was was talking about that wasn't he that private contractors want to divulge themselves potentially of exotic materials they may have um and they're looking for a way to do it because it's not as easy as going i've got a ufo on this truck uh being delivered to congress this week who do i give it to um so yeah that's that was uh that was the first name mentioned he then asks again the whole panel if there's a security classification guide for uap or nhi uh nusitelli says it's secret or above nap comes back in and says oh glenn gaffney at the cia and glenn gaffney is a name that's been mentioned before on multiple different ways and platforms he has yeah um liberation times chris shop over there brought it up uh you know matt ford if you go back and you look at the previous hearing and written submit written statements submitted after the fact matt ford submitted something that named glenn gaffney as well so a lot of you know people are pointing at this guy he was the director of science and technologies oh the head of the director of science and technologies office of global access this is said to be the crash retrieval program you know long arm reach across the whole world uh with teams set up everywhere to to get stuff not all alien stuff or nhi stuff or you know technology of unknown origin to how you say that uh i don't like that one you kind of read it so much but um this would be the guy that was in charge of it so it looks like you know he's uh being pointed out now in a much more obvious way and it's been creeping it almost feels like you you know when you watch a tv show and something comes back at the end um that was mentioned in the beginning and it's like oh finally and then it cuts for season two uh it feels like that's where we're at finally glenn gaffney has been named and we've got to wait until next time yes um and burleson asks if the task force has authority to request subpoenas luna says there are ways to work around it but they're also trying to get immunity for borland and co to talk without fear i think that's something that's come up before that the task force can't just issue subpoenas left right and center they don't have the power or authority to do it they have to jump through hoops themselves but there are ways and means to get it done so they could be given the power to do it uh yeah but basically the way that it was made was that the luna's boss uh i forget his name now but she has to ask him to to request the subpoena so what i really like to see is for the task force to actually be given the power to subpoena people without going through mom and dad would that then affect all the task force stuff though i.e epstein gfk yes and and that's potentially why they're not being given it right yeah um like we we want you to see that we're giving you uap stuff and trust us again but also remember that epstein stuff see we're being honest about ufo so you know we're being honest about that stuff now right wink let it go away yeah um yeah so luna um throws a swerve and gets another 30 minutes in uh for this i'm not gonna lie at that point dan i was oh christ this has been going on a long time but it doesn't last another 30 minutes i don't think you know you know when you go and see like a good movie and you're like i'm kind of ready for it to end now and i'll be happy i can't there are so many movies i've seen where you're just like yeah that was that was a really good movie and if it ended now it would be great and then it's just there's another hour and you're just like oh no yeah it happens quite often but it wasn't awful um luna asks uh nap about what percentage of russian information he thinks is public he says one percent which is yeah awesome uh nap says a number of programs existed in russia for this there were programs under programs under programs um she gets the orb missile video replayed totally forgot they done this and asks the panel for their thoughts my note here is i went to the blue um not sure what they all said they they just said i don't know basically okay uh they need more information that that was the thing and and i think that's what everyone should should be doing as well um they do show uh the or mr crane right after this asks about uh ask wiggins about his encounter and whether he saw the video and how are the many witnesses there were and he explains that people in the cic i.e the bridge of the ship they spoke about it but it didn't really get passed uh out of there um jeff's sighting of multiple witnesses and he says that tim gallaudet showed him the video which that is new information to me uh apparently wiggins didn't see the video when he was there of the object uh he was just aware of it so on radar saw it with his eyes uh but yeah now this video is is out and apparently it was tim gallaudet that uh did that he testified in a previous hearing if people don't know yeah uh and representative uh ogles comes in um again is it yeah andy i knew there was another andy yeah um he he interrupts the kind of lightning round they're doing for his five minutes um and he asks the panel if they were pointing the american people to one piece of evidence to investigate this topic um don't think the answers here were particularly great i think it was maybe when he put them on the spot a little bit um jeff says you know this hearing in the first hearing the new video um wiggins didn't really i've not got what he said um jeff jeff also said the sentence there is no evidence which i've seen a lot of skeptics uh pick up on but i think what he's speaking to is the fact that like we're trying to get these protocols established we get the evidence that you want so we convince you out yes but so there is no evidence all we've got is this you know you you need to spend a lot of time looking at the evidence and that question gets asked of me probably you as well you know why do you believe in ufos where's the evidence and it's like there's not one thing i can show you but if i gave you all these reports from the 50s up to modern day you'd come away realizing that there's something here and we can't explain it and it's being covered up beyond that yeah i'd say you know it's hard to in 30 seconds say that right nap talked about the amount of evidence showing these things are not ours he mentions that the incident oh sorry he mentions the incident in russia where they had 40 incidents where pilots were sent to intercept ufos most times the things flew away he does mention two pilots died trying to shoot these things down and the government because the aircrafts were stalled and by the ufos is the implication and that isn't something the government wants out there you start to go into that whole um medical issues pilots and military personnel have suffered and just normal civilians have suffered that then goes into whole other time dan other conversation abduction experiences the genuine ones can they do anything about those are they implicit and those happening what's going on with abductions and all that gets opened up um dylan borland says bob lazar because they tried to discredit him what did you think of borland bringing up lazar is the best evidence you asked me this because i'm skeptical on lazar i think it's fair um i think that specifically what dylan said is completely agreeable you know lazar did did take people out to see these lights going over the base on particular nights um so he knew what the schedule was for this you know it's not just like some random thing that he was saying and then he's flying a drone back in the seven seats out and and you know he he knew something was going on he took people to show them they filmed it and he spoke the truth i've heard a lot of different theories about what that was that he was showing whether they were craft or particle beam experiments and things like that but the point is bob spoke the truth he just didn't have all the information um to kind of say what it was um and yeah i commend dylan for bringing it up because it highlights that as i said you know i'm i'm biased against bob because of you know the way i lean on it but it highlights that even if you feel that way about someone it doesn't mean that everything they say is complete crap uh there are things in there that are still true there are still things in there that you have to incorporate and are relevant to the conversation we're having today even you know we said earlier how kind of strange it was the griot was there and even you know the stuff that he said in the past you know some of it's a bit iffy but again he's done some great work and and there's some real stuff there real witness statements you know and so part of what he's saying is going to be true and genuine so we can't just write people off because we just go ah that bit you said i don't believe so therefore it's all crap it goes back to tim burchett to finish off um it gets nap and borland talking about how arrow split hairs around no proof of et nap says he doesn't know anyone who knows where they are from for sure as a statement dan uh nap said that before but i think it's a fair i like hearing that kind of stuff in these hearings because again i like to think take a step back i'm a member of the public i'm watching this oh this guy's just not coming out and telling us what we want to hear and telling us oh there's aliens and there's proof of it and this is where they're from i like that there's still a line there's still a reservation to say look i might know a lot of stuff for the inclination is george nap knows a lot of stuff through other people but he's coming out and saying i don't know anyone that knows for sure where these are from and i like that because it gives you a sense of okay you're not you're not going too far yeah absolutely he also says about um he says people working on this are the the best of the best and i think that's something that we often forget too in this community you know you listen to eric weinstein talk about the ufo issue and he says all our best scientists don't know about this why aren't you bringing them in you're not going to bring in the best you're going to bring in the people that will stay quiet that will take the wage and we'll do what you tell them that isn't everyone you know like a lot of scientists imagine like an environmental scientist they're going to be fairly liberal in the lilings right like they're not going to take money from the government to have their work shut away and then there's the whole ego part of it you know some scientists are going to want their noble prize for this kind of stuff and if they're not allowed to release the data then they'll just be looked at as someone in the scientific community that hasn't released a single paper you know that they played with that in stargate with the scientists that worked at the stargate thing he had all these incredible papers about this incredible technology and everyone in the community just thought that he was you know a lame scientist because he hadn't actually published anything in like 15 years but he's been working on this program so there's a lot of facets that kind of come into it um and we have to remember that a lot of the people that work in these programs uh in many ways you know desperate they're not the best of the best uh we're not making progress on it as george alluded to earlier because they're not the best of the best and you know hats off to them they're smarter than me but if we want the best scientists on the planet working on this then we have to give them a way where they can be transparent and make file papers and go through that usual scientific process instead of just becoming someone shunned by the community i'm just going to give you my last three notes because that's me done uh tim burchett says you know navy folks think deep sea areas need looked at them lovely little drop in there from tim is a sensational quote burleson finishes saying enough talking it's time for action luna finishes things up and says you know five days for additional materials and questions as per normal and that wraps up the hearings dan and anything else you've got notes wise just uh crockett's final line where she said thank you for your courage it's contagious i think that's very true and hopefully more whistleblowers see this happen and see people like bolan come forward even currently active members of personnel hopefully more of them come forward and testify to the reality of this yeah um final thoughts then dan because we've been going two hours now um christ so thank you for the time yeah nearly as long as the hearings yeah yeah wait did you say the same thing as me jinx yeah i did um so cute there's probably two hours worth of questions so like i say we'll get to that another day um thoughts then generally where we are after this hearing yeah um you know i think they made a great case for the stated reason for having this the whistleblower protections need enhanced enhancement um and to a level unseen before because this is all getting too too crazy um the snowball is picking up speed they clearly fed up um i'm pretty sure i've heard senators in the previous hearing say okay enough talk now time for action but it felt kind of propulsive at the end of this one it felt like okay what's the blow protection then the next thing it feels like a really actionable list uh it was covered by cbs ruses bbc like some of the coverage of the tone sorry the tone of the coverage was less than stellar but what are you going to do you know it's great that it's being covered on these outlets um and also i i would ask after all of these questions can uh can arrow be split off and made an independent organization yet we've wanted this for for years and i think the senators and representatives are finally getting to a point where they realize that we need an independent organization to to run this stuff uh i look forward to what luna has to say about borland testifying and skiff i'm sure she can't tell us everything that uh that she gets told but also i thought you know we we always at the end of these things we say okay next witness who who we have testify i feel like we got a list of people named by the witnesses today mostly george knapp of people that they should get to testify that is james lakatsky jay stratton uh calm calla or calla her is that how you say it um kirk patrick and koslowski arrow yep matthew brown um dr james rider at lockheed uh you know i've said that we're due for someone from lockheed to come forward and start talking uh james rider would be the guy he's been named um and also glenn gaffney let's get him in there that's one two three four five six seven seven potential witnesses for a next hearing who many of whom people have been screaming out for them to testify the only one i would add to that would be hal putoff because he's kind of being mixed in with all of this since the beginning and also bigelow as well because he was mentioned a lot so hopefully all those witnesses come forward and for me it's all eyes on the uapda now and i recommend people get in touch with their representatives here in the u.s and just let them know support this bill it's important uh we will be looking for that attached to the ndaa this month uh but again it could go in in conference and then the president's desk it gets to around december so hopefully we'll see it there and we'll finally be able to get this ball rolling um i'll i'm going to give it a few days so when we come back on and do the the questions and stuff i'll kind of see where i'm at um the uap disclosure act stuff could be telling if that doesn't go through at all because agree this for me was a third and done um it's got to um yeah it's got to be it goes through this time or it doesn't at all um the the announcement from nasa dan just to finish off on that so nasa have basically come out and said the sample that perseverance the rover took on mars last year and this ties in um they've analyzed it now for one year and the scientists that have done the analyzing of the data they can't come up with anything other than they think they've got proof of ancient microbial life so given what we're looking at in these hearings and given that announcement how does that tie in and impact things that you've had the hearings one day and then the following day nasa come out and say oh we we maybe have proof of life because i just wonder will that impact how people react yeah potentially right like it's getting to a point now where you know if you are just in the pub and you say to someone do you believe in aliens like it's more likely than ever that they're gonna say yeah i don't think we're alone and it's not a controversial thing to say anymore looking at james webb telescope images and all the things that we do um seeing all the exoplanets out there we we have a much different idea to people even like for example carl sagan he had no idea exoplanets existed so when he was saying like life is not life out there he was saying that with confidence because he had knowledge that there were no exoplanets out there but just like the head of the astronomy society in i forget is paris like 200 years ago he used to say there are no rocks in the sky therefore they cannot fall from the sky and when a farmer came in with a meteor they said that it crashed into a field they would be mocked and laughed at whereas now we have a much different idea about what's in space and what can come from there and land on earth yeah so yeah i just think that we're at a point now where it's almost inevitable whether it comes from science whether it comes from an actual you know ufo group people can hold me to this my idea changes every day so yeah don't be too harsh but you can hold me to it i think in like 10 years we'll just blanket be like yeah we're not alone in the universe whether that's microbes that have a year before us whether it's a civilization that's around now and just on another planet or visits us doesn't matter i think we will be all very accepting of the fact neil degrasse tyson included that we are not alone in the universe yep i would agree um folks any and all thoughts and questions on that please get in touch with us use the email address ufo uap am at gmail.com or that ufopodcast.com forward slash contact everyone has commented on patreon and discord and stuff i can get stuff in there if you want to resend the questions that's fine we'll go through them separately i am flagging badly at this point dan i'll give you the final word though for a change anything you want to mention at all before you head off a little shameless self-promotion from me i think um my new show what it means to be human comes out in the next few days uh i'll try and give any links so we can include it here but we're essentially kind of trying to turn the mirror on us you know we always talk about ufos as if they're out there and something not affecting us um and we're kind of going to look at how the phenomena affects us and changes us throughout our lives and helps us understand what it means to be human this question comes up a lot whether you're watching alien earth or lou alizando or anything like it just comes up all the time and that is why i chose the name and so uh we'll be hitting first with a just like a news roundup very different uh i'll introduce you to ros my co-host a canadian producer that works with indigenous populations there on communities sorry and uh brings like a really just different refreshing perspective to this whole thing and then also i'll have an interview with richard hattom the writer of the mothman prophecies movie uh to talk about all things phenomena and also some practical advice if you're a screenwriter and you're listening to this come listen because he gives some advice on how to actually make it in the industry too awesome um what i'll do dan since we've gone so long like i say i'll put the link in the description for dan's show um best of luck with that with ros um thank you sir i'll i'll release separately the 25 minutes um with s because that's like two and a half hours now to upload and the files start getting big as well folks so um if you want to hear the the breakdown and analysis of what s thinks the video may be i'll release it separately and you've just got the two two shows there so yeah all good dan thank you so much and also obviously best of luck with the the pod when it comes out thank you and yeah it's been a long time coming right i've tried to do this a number of times and finally finally um it's only days away so uh again folks thank you very much for listening and we'll speak to you very very soon that is all for this episode thank you very much for tuning in don't forget to leave the podcast a review on your chosen platform apple and spotify do make a huge difference to the algorithm if you're checking the show on youtube please don't forget to like and leave a comment on here as well any sharing you do is very much appreciated on any social media platform and finally you can listen to shows ad-free and sponsor-free in their glorious full versions by subscribing for less than the price of a coffee on apple spotify just search that ufo podcast premium youtube you can sign up and be a member or you can do that through patreon.com thank you very much for listening folks