Breakdown: New data, deception & missed opportunities

I am George Napp, listening to That UFO Podcast and having one hell of a good time. I literally did this this morning and then realized that Always Sunny had started the new season. So that's my new series now. Yay. Not for us in the UK, Dan, obviously yet. Oh, is it not? No spoilers yet. I'll find it. Yeah, I'll find it. I'll find it on the high seas. It's on the high seas. Yeah. I'll find it on the high seas. All right. But yes, a lot has happened. And some of the stuff that's kind of came and went. First off, it's an oldie, but it checks out, to quote Star Wars. Age of disclosure, right, for me is a big talking point here. Have they missed their window? This is something we heard about for a lot. You're nodding away. So this is something we heard about for a long time, right? Even before we knew the name of it and who was properly involved, there was rumors of a game-changing documentary was in the works. Dave Fravor and others had mentioned it on various conferences, podcasts, and it was kind of murmured and rumored for a long time. We then found out it was going to premiere and debut at South by Southwest Film Festival. Great place for that to happen back in March. It had two showings. And that's not just your elite. It was your normal pond scum like me, general public, Dan, were able to go in and see it if they had tickets to the film festival and got in. Reactions were positive. I spoke to a few listeners who were there at the time. But it's been seen. It's not got a proper release yet. It hasn't changed the game. It seemed interesting. It's a lot of talking heads. We've been told that there's no footage. It can be quite dry from what we're told. I'm looking forward to seeing it. I don't think it's going to tell us anything that we don't know. And I think me and you talked about this before, that for folks involved in the topic, it's not going to be anything we don't know or don't see. Even a Mike Rounds recently with Ross Coulter coming out and saying, you know, it's crazy to think that there aren't other intelligences out there. That's quite a big statement, but this to me just seems like it's that in documentary form with lots of people where you would go, oh, that's great to hear them say that, but it's not going to change anything. So for me, first big question, age of disclosure, have they missed their window? I think, sadly for me, I was literally talking to someone about this the other day. Yes, they have. I think they had the hype in the community on their side. I think they had the energy to kind of push it from the community. You know, James Fox's films have done really well because of passionate community members, kind of free marketing and word of mouth kind of getting out there. I think they might have lost their window. And I hear that it's due to the fact that they're trying to get a good distribution deal. They want a cinema run. But I got to say, man, like when was the last time you went to see a documentary in the cinema? Yeah. Right. Even if you're actually asking me. Yeah. Have you ever? I think The Cove was the one I went to see. It was an Oscar winner one a while back about the kind of shameful practice of capturing dolphins and whales to put in aquariums and, you know, illegally sell them as food and things like that. Harrowing documentary. But what I think that was, I want to say like 2012, 2010, somewhere around there. I can't even remember. It was so long ago. So, I mean, I've had to Google famous documentaries just to find so much of it as stuff. Final Tap? Nah, I've never seen it. Have you not? I've still never seen it. Final Tap. Total mistake. I'm even looking back at things like Bowling for Columbine back in the day. Oh, sure. I don't know if I saw that in a cinema or if I rented that when I worked in Blockbuster. Sure. So much stuff. Incomitant Truth. Like, they're the ones that I think did well in the cinema. But, yeah, I don't know if I have. They just don't do well in the cinema. You know, you have something like The Blair Witch, like a mockumentary or a comedy or a horror kind of films like that. Great. It'll do gangbusters in the cinema. But people just don't go see documentaries. They're more like, you know, you're not going to go to Odeon or these big AMC cinemas out here to see a documentary. You'll find them in like these small arse house cinemas kind of scattered around. So, even if they got a cinema release, I don't think it's going to be crazy wide. People aren't going to see movies in the cinema. They're really struggling for just movies unless it catches fire or goes vital or even look at Marvel are now starting to struggle in a cinema. I was just going to say, like Thunderbolts. Like, I re-watched Thunderbolts last night and I know I've told you, like, watch it. It's really great. I really enjoyed it the second time through. I mentioned this last week, Dan. I hadn't seen it yet. Loads of people were like, you need to see it. And I will. It's good. But it kind of touches on what we're talking about. It had good word of mouth. It's a goddamn Marvel movie. And it face-planted at the box office. You know, people just don't. Like, we change things when it comes to the cinema. People know that they can watch things at home within two, three months of something being in the cinema. Sometimes even two, three weeks now. And so, you know, are you going to spend a hundred quid to take your three kids and partner to the cinema to see a UFO documentary, popcorn, you know, all that kind of stuff on top of that? Are you going to do that? And then it's a UFO documentary with no footage, with no explosive reveals. It's a very dry talking heads type piece. So, yeah, for me, unless I can only see, unless they have this put aside for a reason, for a certain time, for it to coincide with something. But I think, like you say, they're just looking for the best distribution deal. And it really just seems like Homer Simpson cashing on his pumpkin shares right around January. Like, yeah, like, in a way, I can understand because Dan Farah, the, you know, the guy who made this, he was involved in like Ready Player One. He's a big Hollywood guy. So I can understand why people in Hollywood are like cinema releases of the cream of the crop. That's what we got to do to be a legitimate film release. We need that. That's classy, you know. But times have changed. The models have changed. Is it better in a cinema where no one sees it? Or is it better on the front page of Netflix worldwide for 24 hours? Because more people are going to see it the second way. It's just the way things are now, you know. And then it will be broken down into clips for TikTok, 30 seconds, 60 seconds. You know, like, that's just how things go these days. Yeah. Yeah, for me, I think it's missed its window. I don't think it's going to get a cinema release. I think you'd be lucky to have it in a couple of small art house type establishments. Even then, is it going to do anything? Is it worth doing that? For me, it should be on the Netflix ASAP. We've got hearings, apparently scheduled for July, are going to be happening in July. Can you even get it on a platform that quickly? If, like, that's this month. So if the hearings happen this month, the film's outdated. Like, I would argue it's outdated now. But it's majorly outdated if more hearings happen and they don't include them in the documentary. James Fox spoke about this, how you keep up with this constant churning kind of thing that is the UFO subject and legislation and so on and so forth. If it's old, it's old. You know, people aren't going to eat it up. It'll be a nice on-ramp for people that haven't followed it. But are they going to go see it on that? Are they going to switch it out? Devil's advocate. Is it going to be now a good on-ramp for that? Because people who aren't into the subject, they're still generally on TikTok, on X, on Instagram, whatever platform they use for social media. And they're seeing all this kind of stuff already in a thousand different clips. Jesse Michaels is getting views into the millions. Lex Friedman, if he does any kind of UFO stuff, would get that. Joe Rogan is obviously going to get that. Stephen Bartlett would get that. So all these platforms are there, which are getting huge numbers of views, whether it's social engagement clips or whatever it be. Long-form interviews, quick snappy reporting, articles, blogs, all this stuff is out there already. Carl Nell is saying stuff. Mike Rounds is saying stuff. Rubio, Warner, they've all said stuff. Do you need it packaged in this? It's almost like, you know, you've got the seven series of 24. I think they made more than that, right? But there's seven series of 24, and you've got them all already. But here's the collector's edition box set. Is everyone rushing out to buy that? Some people will, but most folk will be happy with their seven individual series. They've got them all already. Yeah, but there's some bonus content here and some bloopers and some alternate takes. Cool. But again, I've got mostly everything over here. Or I can find it online. So, yeah, for me, they've missed their window with it. And I wonder, is that just going to be detrimental to them now trying to get their window, their distribution deal? Because who are you pitching this to in a volatile market? Because right now, you even look at Superman is literally about a drop. When this comes out, it's the day of release for Superman. Yeah, that's right. I've seen good reviews so far. I've seen other people say they've seen bad reviews. I'm quite excited to go and see it. But I'm taking the two boys to go and see it tomorrow. My youngest is really happy that Superman's dog's in it. That's the selling point for him. He thinks this is really cool that Krypto's in it. My older one didn't want to see Jurassic World. Isn't too fussed on the Marvel movies now. But he was like, oh, go and see Superman. Like, kind of, eh, just out of interest. I'm intrigued to go and see it. Because it looks like it could be awful or quite good. But yeah, I just think when something like Superman, like a proper brand, you know, a name, a staple in people's homes, they know Superman. What chance does Age of Disclosure have? Yeah, I think that's the sickly put, isn't it? I would much prefer to see a four-hour interview with Dan Farah on Joe Rogan where they watch this together and just do a commentary. Pause it every now and then. Talk about the statements that are being made. Talk about the behind-the-scenes of it. I think that would be richer. I think it would move more people. I think more people would watch that, probably, given, you know, the size of Rogan's audience. Did you take it and make it a series? Did you go, look, we've got 90 minutes of footage. We've got a couple hours we didn't use. Let's maybe now splice in some stuff, some stock footage, some famous sightings. Do they have to change it up a little bit? I don't know. Maybe that's what, because I can imagine a world where Netflix is like, yeah, a UFO documentary would be good, but it's an hour and a half, so we're going to give you X amount of money for it. But if you can get us four episodes and it's a series and maybe we can do a season two in a couple of years, we'll give you a little bit more money for that. That'll get more eyeballs. It's more watch time, and that's what we care about here at Netflix. It almost feels like I want this in the cinema and it has to be a proper film is the opposite of what the current kind of media consumption climate is. For this especially, yeah, for this especially. And the Netflix CEO must be looking going, I've got 100 UFO documentaries in my archive already. This will be a nice addition to the collection. Yeah, so I'd be interested to hear what people think on that. I will guess that most folks would agree or fall down on a similar side to us that they've perhaps missed our window unless something big happens. Who knows? Next one for me, Dan. Again, one where the clock is very much ticking. Skywatcher. Skywatcher is my number one. I was just going to say, do you want me to do one first? Do you know what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is my number one. Do you want to go on? Go on. Cat Skywatcher. Well, I guess we both have stuff to talk about with it. So for me, you know, what's happening with Skywatcher? Their initial claim at the beginning of the year was that they had the footage that was going to blow the doors off this thing. Ross even said all hell was going to break loose. And he's never said that it was Skywatcher he was talking about when he said that. But this is Skywatcher came out just after he said that. So I think it's logical to connect the two. But again, just connecting dots. But there seems to be a, you know, there's a finite clock on it. They've said that by the end of 2025, they're going to have, you know, they're kind of the house in order and their proofs kind of put down and their science plan kind of progressing. But we just keep getting these episodes that they're well made, well produced. You know, it's like Skinwalker Ranch, but Skywatcher Ranch without the ad breaks, of course. But we're not seeing the stuff that they've promised, the proof, you know, we're getting blurry videos. And I think I'm happy to wait and see what they come up with at the end of the year. But the clock is ticking. And I think looking from January to now, I think the trust in the organization is kind of diminishing in the community. There are a lot of kind of naysayers against what Skywatcher are doing about their transparency, about how much they're letting us in on, who's involved, their actual techniques, and so on and so forth. I think a lot more transparency from them would go a long way to making people kind of trust them again. Yeah, I spoke to one or two people involved. Nothing major, and that's not me being like, oh, super secret sources, right? Because it's people people know. Just it's their own opinion. So I'm not sharing that it's up to them to do it. That Skywatcher has something, something big, and, you know, it's exciting. And, you know, they'll show the goods. However, we talked a lot, didn't we, Dan, back in the last few months of recording, where it almost seems like some of it got walked back from what they initially were announcing they had. Maybe there was a rhyme or reason for that that could have made sense. Here was a great point that Sneaky Dave made on the Discord chat. Skywatcher, who Ross Coulthart brought forward in his interview with Jake Barber, have said they have summoned a tic-tac. If the tic-tac is human technology, how are they summoning it with a dog whistle? Very good point, Dave. Go on, Dan. Is there just like an Achilles heel in the technology that, like, I don't know, like, you know, I could kill my phone, but if I had like a certain frequency there, is it like an unintended consequence? Is it the frequency thing, though, where whatever these things operate on, they can, but then imagine you're Lockheed Martin and you're going, right, guys, we're going to test today on the Omaha fleet. And where are they going? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. All the tic-tacs are fucking off and they're all flying off into the distance. And you call the boss, I did it last time. Yeah, like, tell the boss we've lost five tic-tacs. They're off again, man. You're going to have to build new ones. What frequency were they on? Did you have it on 1.6? Oh, shit, sorry. I imagine when the Gallifreyans in Doctor Who created the TARDIS and switched it on and it went through time, you know, they probably lost a bunch of models. That's probably the reason we don't have a time machine. It's very nerdy, but I know some listeners will. It's relevant, no. But yeah, so for me, the clock's ticking. It's been May was the last time they released some of those instructional videos. Again, I suppose you've got to look and go, who is the audience that they're aiming those videos at? Because it's people like us watching them and people who listen to this and watch this who are going, okay, we kind of know this stuff. So who is that being marketed at? It's almost like you'd be better putting it. I know people are going to revolve at this, but you'd be better having it on a history channel because I don't know who those videos are for otherwise. Not that TV's to be on end all, we've just said that. There's been some conversation, wasn't there? I know we spoke about this before, that Skywatcher were less talking to us and more kind of posturing to the people in the Legacy program to kind of go, look, we're tiptoeing close to the line. We're going to do this. And that you either let us back in or you come out with a bit of information here that backs us. But so far, no one's come out with information that backs them. I don't know if that technique is working for them or what. Yeah, it was no one from Skywatcher that has spoken to me about that technique, by the way, that they're trying to kind of nudge the Legacy program Secret Keepers to come out with more info. So it's just conjecture in the community because I guess we're all watching kind of going, like you say, who is this for? And that's one of the theories. And at this point as well, though, it's like, what are we actually watching? Because there's nothing to watch. And even like, I'd argued, I'd made the point, which I think is only fair. They don't owe technically any of us anything. They have got private funding. They're not crowdsourcing. They're not openly asking for cash from people where you'd maybe be due or owed updates or some kind of forum to log on and access and see what the guys are doing. Some kind of almost like a Skinwalker 24-7 type app. They have given their updates and then perhaps it's been a deliberate move to take a step back from that public conversation and public interaction. And then before you know it, bang, they drop a video one day and here's psionic stuff. And while there's really something to this, that very well could happen. And I'm going to give them every faith that it does. But it just seems like they went from being quite loud and noisy about it to very quiet without any, oh, okay. You know, like when you've got that mate who just stops talking for a few months in a group chat and then comes back in with a bang. It's like Skywatcher's got a girlfriend now and they're not getting involved in any nights out of group chats. And then we're going to find out one day they've broke up, but hey-ho, we're right back into it and yeah. Yeah. I think it's an interesting question that you pose as well. Like what do they owe us? And like, again, devil's advocate, I can see a lot of people in the community kind of saying, well, where would they be without the community? You know, Ross kind of platformed them. They got a lot of attention very quickly. They got a lot of promotion from people who were hopeful that what they would do would be transparent and solid. And now we're in this wishy-washy stage. I can definitely see people kind of saying, well, they actually owe us quite a bit in the community because they've made all these claims and we've promoted them and we've spread the message of Skywatcher. And yet we're in July and it's wishy-washy. They're quiet. They've pulled back. They've even, you know, stepped backwards on some of their statements from January where they said, we have this proof. Now it's, we plan to get this proof. And it's like, well, which is it? You know, there's just some frustrating tension there. But like we said, it is a finite amount of time that they get with this. They said by the end of 2025, why can't I say that? They're going to have XYZ kind of sorted out in their white paper they published. So that's what we hold them to is their own words and we see where they go, right? So should we just say right now, we just need to be a bit more patient with this one? Yeah, I think so. Like, good things come to those who wait, right? And whether they are successful or aren't, it's going to happen without our input. They're not asking for our money. They're just asking, like, just watch what we do. You know, they YouTube. What are the views like on the YouTube? Are they making bank? Are they millionaires from YouTube? Or is it just... Oh, I doubt it. You say good things come to those who wait. I think the Ocean Gate guy was quite patient. This is the really dark touchstone for this whole episode. I'm just checking out Skywatcher's YouTube. I'm doing that cool kids thing of like, oh, I'm live pulling stuff up. I'm curious. Half a million views, 400,000. That's... Wait, is it going down in viewership since the early one? Part one was 644,000. Part two was 435. Five months ago, three months ago. So, that's... They're not making, like... They are not getting rich off that, folks, right? Put it that way. No. No, they're not. And just as a quick aside, I'd really recommend, if anyone's curious about money in the UFO kind of industry, and, you know, like what we do here, how much money is made through YouTube and stuff like that, Jimmy from UAP Files put up a really good video where he was very transparent with his earnings and just gives people a good idea of what kind of money YouTube makes. And it's not much, folks, but go watch. He shows you the proof and it's really good to kind of go, oh, okay. There really isn't that much money in the UFO world unless you're like the cream of the crop, you know? I think even for those getting like the half a millions of views, they'll make all right money. But again, if you then have a crew behind you and production and people you're paying and all that as well, like, but yeah. Yeah, make sure you like and subscribe, folks, and hit the notification bell, do the comment thing. I need to get better at that. Sign up for the membership and the Patreon too. Yeah. I've heard folks say that by signing up to the membership, they've actually, their life's got better. I don't know. I'm just, I don't want to say that out there without it being true. Was there someone that couldn't walk and they can walk now? I vaguely remember that kind of happening when they signed up the membership. I think. Might have just been a story. I don't know. Yeah. Back in December, Jake Barber signed up and then in January he thought Skywatcher. Bang, there we were. Yeah, not saying it's directly. That's not true. Because anyone's like, yeah, Jake Barber signed up. On that note, right. Go on. No, no, no. I was going to say my other point, right, is Jake Barber, Matthew Brown, the next whistleblower could be the most important. So we've had a few this year come forward. A couple of things I'll throw out there, Dan, and then get your take on it. Given we've had, I suppose just this year, Jake Barber, then Matthew Brown coming forward, will gatekeepers get their own guy out in front that could sabotage this down the line or be disinformation or muddy the water? Have we already had that? Have the gatekeepers got their man, their woman out there already? If the next whistleblower coming forward is a dud or it's something repetitive, is that going to hamper this whole whistleblower route? Because the whistleblower thing, something, for me particularly coming into this topic, not coming into it, I've been into UFOs for my whole life, like I said, but really getting involved in the social stuff and the podcast from 2020, whistleblowers were always like the holy grail. People wanted whistleblowers. Is it almost like we really need to see something substantial from one of them or that becomes a bit of a dead end? And then with the hearing scheduled for July, is there going to be anything around that? So yeah, I don't know. Thoughts? Yeah, so for me, I think if the next whistleblower was dud, it wouldn't necessarily affect kind of what I thought of the subject because, you know, bring the evidence, we'll investigate, if it shows up nothing, it shows up nothing. You know, that's the fair kind of route to this. I'd be biased if I said, you know, we just have to believe whistleblowers. Everything they say, we have to believe them without evidence, you know, or equally the other way around. Like, we're just going to ignore everything if they don't have a piece of a UFO to show us, you know, like I think both the bad faith positions and just look at the evidence, investigate, it shows nothing. Great, that's something off our table. If it shows something, awesome, that means we're progressing. But for the public, I think a dud whistleblower, every single one of them damages the conversation around this subject in the kind of the wider public. We saw the Wall Street Journal recently kind of trying to play that angle as well. Like they put out two articles that were really strange and misinformed in a lot of ways and pushed a particular narrative. And a lot of the public will have seen that and they'll just switch off now to the subject. And so they'll stop paying attention without anything substantial from a whistleblower. You know, if Bob Lazar came forward with his 115 now, conversation changes, I think. But if it's just more stories... We didn't talk about the Wall Street Journal stuff. No, we didn't, no. I have the opinion that most of the talking and interaction with those articles were done by the UFO community. So this kind of panic around, oh, the public are going to read these and be really put off. Again, are the public going out their way to read Wall Street Journal articles that are behind a paywall on the UFO? What does this describe a bit as? I think it's into the hundreds of thousands, potentially. But again, it's a niche within a niche, isn't it? So you've got people who subscribe to this kind of stuff for a reason. For business news, I'm guessing is a big one. You're then going to have a smaller subsection going into it for that kind of stuff. I just felt there was a, I don't want to say overreaction, but there was almost an unnecessary fear around the impact of those articles. Unnecessary fear, I would agree with that. So they have over 4 million paying subscribers including both print and digital. Of course, that doesn't mean that those people are all going to read it, just like if I pick up newspaper, I won't read everything in it. You said print though, does that mean people who buy the Wall Street Journal as opposed to they're not subscribed just to the online? Oh, no, it means they're subscribed, but getting the hard copy to the door instead of just doing the digital stuff. I don't know how the subscription works. I would imagine there's two levels. If you want the paper, you can pay for it, but otherwise you just use the website and can read their stuff. But yeah, you're right, it's behind a paywall. And the most commentary on it I did see from the UFO community. And there are certain things in these articles that are spoken about as this is a debunking article where they say they're working with the intelligence community or they're being influenced and so on and so forth. I like to kind of think of the writers as just like you and I, just human. You know, like maybe they came into this very intentionally to be fair and that was the information they were given, so that's what they're passing on. They spoke to a lot of names in the community like Stephen Bassett was in touch with them. Sure. So you think that, I mean, yeah, to speak to like Greenwald and to Bassett and, you know, they've done a fair bit of legwork to identify those people. But then we had Greenwald kind of saying that they spoke to him for like hours and hours and hours and hours and they only included this tiny bit that kind of backed their narrative. I don't know what the development of the article looked like. For all I know, they came in very kind of sincerely and this is what they put out and they just got some stuff wrong or maybe it was a complete conspiracy. But I think you're right in kind of saying that the Wall Street Journal, it's a niche of a niche of a niche. You know, how many subscribers to Wall Street Journal of those 4 million are going to stop in their tracks and read part one and two of the UFO article? I can't imagine many, right? So it almost comes across like it's just created for noise or to just feed in because it's popular or to have the community fight amongst themselves or something like that and that's what happened. But yeah, like I mentioned it in relation to that public thing with a whistleblower. I kind of see it as a little bit separate but I thought I'd bring it in because we haven't spoken about it. But I think the more weak whistleblowers we have that don't come with evidence, the less the public pays attention to the new ones. Yeah, and I'd like to see some follow-up as well because Jake Barber came out, was pretty prevalent back in January, February, March, early Sky Watcher days. I was looking with the YouTube stuff there, his appearance on American Alchemy with Jesse Michaels has almost exactly the same amount as Sky Watcher's most popular video. So there's a similar audience going back and forward there. Same with James Fowler, really similar numbers, 400,000-ish. So yeah, Matthew Brown as well came out with Knapp and Corbell, eventually seemed to date itself to around about March, I think it worked out roughly, towards the end of March because they referenced the 60 Minutes episode and that talk, but then we've not heard any more from Matthew Brown other than some tweets and stuff, but he's not come out and spoken. So that was one of my three, was Matthew Brown, and it felt to me like a kind of a reinvigoration of what the community was there for, what we're all pushing towards with transparency and holding the government to account and stuff like that. I felt like Matthew was very down to worth. He got people a bit more focused again, and then a couple months later, he posted this tweet from his Twitter account, son of Abra, Melon, and I don't have the full text of the tweet, but it got weird a little bit, right? There were references to angelic beings, it was nodding towards some really esoteric stuff. It gets very necklace-caged national treasure. If you fold the $1 bill counterclockwise and then look at it this way, it opens up a gate if you take it to the museum. I watched those again recently, they're great movies, they should definitely make more of those. But yeah, it spoke about the death of AI as well, Sam Altman from Open AI, ChatGPT had created an artificial general intelligence and murdered it. And he was trying to get Elon's attention as well to talk to him about stuff. And I think if that had come out first, people would have been a bit more kind of stand back and watch what he had to present with Jeremy and George where it came out after. So I think the interview was well received, it focused us, but then this tweet seemed to fracture the conversation around him because I've spoken to you before, I've been to Boleskine House in Scotland and meditated in the room where Crowley did the Admiral Ritual and visited all these places like in New Orleans that he also went to. And I have some friends who are in the OTO, which was Crowley's, I guess you could call it group or collective or organization or religion, some people would call it. And it's seen as very, anything that Crowley touches is seen as evil by people because of the way that it's been kind of spoken about in the modern day. He gets referred to as the great beast and that kind of gets brought up a lot. But that was actually his mom, like his mom was very Catholic and he would always misbehave so she called him the great beast when he was a kid, you know, and it just stuck. He took her on ironically as a nickname. But he also entertained these kind of darker things, you know, like in some of Crowley's writing, he will say, like just as an example, kill a thousand children and that will get people's attention and people will talk about it and his word will spread. What he's actually referring to is masturbation and killing a bunch of semen in the text when he's kind of talking about those things and he's just talking about it in a really cheeky way that's going to be provocative for people. Yeah. So, and as well around the Admiral Malin ritual itself where people say that he was summoning his guardian angel, that is what the intention was. But Crowley actually quit that ritual six months in and had to go to France to help a friend, which is wild to think about because he would have had to go from bumfuck nowhere in Scotland to France back in the day when there were no trains, cars. Yeah. That's a bit of a journey, you know, like there's got to be a good friend that you drop in that for to go and see in France. But he never completed it. Um, and the actual ritual is meant to be 18 months long. You're meant to eat certain things. It's not a violent ritual, as I often see kind of people talking about, especially when Matthew put that tweet out, but it's all about kind of sitting with yourself in quiet and darkness and reflecting on your lesser parts. You know, do I get jealous of people? Am I a bit greedy with things? And kind of honestly having that conversation with yourself and coming out of it with a bit of knowledge about who you are and how you could be better. Right, exactly. And this is exactly what Crowley kind of was into. He was taking things from all of these different religions, bringing them into this one kind of organization to kind of go, this is kind of self-help with tongue in cheek. You know, it's Freud before Freud, essentially, because it is, it's all self-help stuff, you know, be kind to yourself, know your darker parts so that you know who you are and how you operate in this world. And it's just like I say, it's just self-help stuff and all this mystique around it makes posts like Matthew Brown's one come across like this crackpot thing when actually there's some interesting things that he's kind of playing with that even the fact that he knows this esoteric stuff, like for you, because, you know, obviously I'm talking about Crowley here. I think for people that are informed about that, that tweet didn't really rub them too much the wrong way, but it made him kind of raise an eyebrow and go, oh, he's kind of into this stuff. Interesting. Like that's, that's an interesting, well, interest, I'm saying interest too much. What did you think? What are your impressions of Crowley and what did you think when you saw that from Matthew Brown? I don't know much of the Crowley stuff other than bits of documentaries and what you kind of talk about. I think for me it would have been more like without more of a knowledge, kind of a culty guy and sitting around with loads of candles lit and screaming incantations into a big book with fucking spells flying around them, you know, like I've seen in a thousand movies, which isn't the case. Are you talking like what people imagine like Satanism to be? Yeah, basically, yeah. Slitting animals' throats and getting a blood. Pentagrams on the floor and all that kind of stuff, yeah. But then I think it speaks to what I've mentioned about whistleblowers where we've all got these ideas of what these people should be like and then when you speak to them and meet them and if you put Jake Barber, David Grush, Jason Sands, Matthew Brown, Lenville Logan, Sarah Gam and you line them all up and then you hear their initial, oh, they worked on this and they saw this or they had access to this. But then you find out about their personalities. Oh, and Sarah Gam's got a cat picture behind her. Oh, so she's a crazy cat lady and you know, yeah, it's like Dan's pointing to a cat picture behind him. But it's like people have got a view of what they expect whistleblowers to be. That doesn't take away that these people had access to what they had access to and they open up and give you a little bit of insight into their life on podcasts like this and interviews and everything else and and maybe reaching out on social media and posting some tweets. And then there's almost an outcry of well, they can't be serious if they're into this and they can't be someone who worked on a UFO program in any way, shape or form. Bob Lazar can't have done what he done because he was a pimp that ran a brothel and was involved in this illegal stuff, right? So I see what you're doing there. I see. But there just seems to be a little bit of a theme, doesn't there? Sure. Yeah. All these people are imperfect and flawed because they are human. It doesn't mean they didn't do. And again, for me, it's the perfect folks to have involved in this stuff. And yeah, it's just you shouldn't. Again, I've always said before, like the famous one being like Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings, you read it in novel form and then someone brings it to life on screen and it's their interpretation of what you've got in your head. And then when you see it, you go, oh, I like this. I like this. I like this. I don't like this. I thought this would be different. That's all we're getting now with these whistleblowers where they've got opinions and biases and they've got sources and they've got narratives or agendas that are made up of all these opinions and people they've spoken to over months, years, people they've been involved with because that's just what we do as human beings. It's not all a rigid one-size-fits-all approach with this, especially because it's not as if I've got someone coming out now who's like a major general who literally was Bob Lazar's boss who used to oversee him working on the craft. We've not had that yet. It's still a relatively surface-level whistleblower involvement. Even if you want to call it, let's just presume Bob Lazar's telling the truth. even a Bob Lazar is still relatively surface level. He done a job. Do you know what I mean? He was just a small cog in a wheel. We've not got the bigger cogs or the hardware yet. So, yeah, I can see that. I think I don't read too much into it that people have got all kind of weird afflictions and whatnot or, you know, yeah, people are people. Yeah, I would agree with that. I'm sure there's some people that won't listen to you because they're Celtic supporters, right? Idiots. We're all, everyone has their thing that they're just like, I don't believe that because of X, Y, Z. And it's just, it's just their thing. There's a few Celtic fans listening to this. Oh, yeah? Hi to them. Yeah, I wouldn't say hi to them, but you know. Andy said he stands for everything you don't, if you're listening. Won't disagree. Your shed's going to be on fire next episode. Some of them, some of them will reach out now after that. So I wish you nothing but ill in the new season. But yeah, did you have a third or have we covered all three? So I have potentially two more. Okay, go on. One is more that I just, I want to talk about because I'm curious. I've done my three, so take it. Oh, you're doing your three? Okay. So my third one would be, is 2025 the year of change for Arrow? Arrow, you know, we kind of have had Kirkpatrick representing Arrow for a few years now, and I think it's safe to say that people don't really like the dude, and you know, that's fine. Kirkpatrick, he seems to play coy with the UFO thing and kind of make underhanded statements about the kind of people that would be into the UFO thing and so on and so forth. Now, he's gone. Who we have is Koslowski, John Koslowski. Is that correct? And he seems more open to talking about the anomalous kind of stuff in the data piles with the press. We've also had Tim Phillips, you know, you spoke to him. He's been on a few other shows, too. He seems a lot nicer in interviews than he is on LinkedIn, I will say that. But his attitude seems to have changed a little bit. You know, he's not so, at least in the interviews that I've watched, he hasn't been super disparaging towards the subject. It just kind of comes down to, yes, there are stuff that we don't know what it is, but I don't have any proof that it's aliens, so I'm not going to say it's aliens, which is kind of a nice neutral place. You know, there's no animosity in that, right? Like, that's kind of where we all are. We're like, yeah, I don't know what it is. I want to know where it is. It doesn't seem to be anything humans can make. So there's this tantalizing mystery there. So we're now at a place where people are kind of becoming dissatisfied with Arrow in Congress and the progress that they're making, even though they're, you know, simmering nicely now, I would say. But there's been talk of the FBI kind of being given their lead with some legislation kind of moving through. And that gives me pause because the only place that we've, you know, we've have Koslowski given interviews and stuff like that. Phillips is out giving interviews. We've seen Kirkpatrick giving interviews. The FBI people, where are they? There's so much less transparency from this FBI department supposedly investigating UFOs than there is from Arrow that I've got to wonder whether that's a good idea or whether people are just seeing the grass is greener on the other side. What do you think? How would you review Arrow's 2025 and do you think they've changed? I think the big one for me is the legislation coming in that's potentially going to give the FBI the lead on investigating the UFO, UAP stuff. That could be the death of Arrow then. And the way the Trump administration seems to be going with a lot of organizations, budget cuts and whatnot, where it can, it would make sense that Arrow will have the plug pulled on it then at that point and not be required anymore. So I could see Arrow being gone by the end of 2020, by the end of 2025, potentially. Do you think that would be a good thing if the FBI replies? Do you know, I don't think it matters anymore. I don't, I'm not expecting anything from Arrow. They've not delivered much either way. I don't think they've delivered much even in the way of a good round of debunking. I think it's almost seemed quite clumsy and kind of poorly done. You would expect better from your enemy if indeed that's what it was for a lot of folks. So it's just been a bit of a bit of a nothing. Ultimately, and I'm not fussed if it goes. I don't think, do you know what? I think it's one of those things that see if I'm like they done, see, see it was abolished today privately. I could see it being one of those organizations and like a year's time, someone one day tweets and goes, is Arrow still a thing? And we all go, and then you look back and go, oh, they've not done anything since last year. I honestly see it being like that. So yeah, for me, I can see Arrow going by the wayside now. John Kozlowski seemed to have a little bit more of the bit between his teeth. I still think, honestly, I still go back and forward on Kirkpatrick being a guy who was really out to be proper disinformation, really malicious on the UFO topic. I still think there was a large element of almost lethargy with it and just not really having an interest in doing it. Going to just do this for a couple of years, go and deal with these fucking whack jobs and conspiracy theorists and you'll get a nice cushy number afterwards. And the guy was just like, oh, yeah, can't really be bothered, but I will. I could still see that being a part of it as much as there's some stuff going on. We're always reading this from one side, aren't we? Yep. So yeah, I think Arrow can eventually go. It's a fair point, I think. Kirkpatrick, for me, I lean to the side that there's something fishy there in terms of his dealings with Enigma and being at that Skinwalker Ranch presentation and stuff like that and then saying he had no interest and so on and so forth. But on the other side, people are people. They forget things. Maybe it was one meeting, one day of a thousand meetings that he's had every day since, you know, and he's just presenting what he's been given and someone else is the one kind of feeding him the bad stuff or the dishonest stuff, I should say. You know, there's a lot of conversation from the hearings of last year. And whenever Koslowski and Arrow seem to be in interviews, we seem to have a hovering Susan Goff, the spokesperson for the DoD. And I think, yeah, people want their subject away from her. So, and whatever's going on inside the DoD, you know, even Ross alluded to it in his, the Tic Tac is Lockheed kind of energetic rant, I'll say, where he was saying that the DoD don't actually know what this is or what's going on with it in the legacy program. They don't have access and this is the problem because they're making these statements out of hand when they actually know nothing and it's being hidden from them too. So I think we've got to almost hold all these things lightly instead of going after people who are declared enemies of the subject, would that make sense? Like, I feel like there's almost a new person to be mad at every single week and their name always seems to be Mike. Yeah. And do you know what? Even, even in all of that, I get a lot of correspondence from folks who don't care about the government position and they actually don't care to hear what the government think and what the government may or may not be coming out and saying about the topic or which representatives, whether it be Arrow or DoD spokeswomen or a major general or CIA intelligence, whatever it might be, they don't care. They prefer to hear from experiencers, witnesses, from authors, whatever it may be, that the last people they want to hear from is anyone involved in an official capacity. But on the flip side, there's a lot of what could do. So I can appreciate that. But yeah, for me, on your Arrow one, Dan, if it goes, it goes. Sure. Cool. So then my last thing that I was super excited about when it happened was a couple of weeks back, maybe not a couple of weeks back, the Vero Rubin Observatory in Chile kind of put up their first images from their sky scans. And this is a particularly cool one because, yeah, it's beginning full operation soon, but it's designed for what's called the LSST, the Legacy Survey of Space and Time, which, you know, if you're into the UFO subject, they're two things that we want to investigate for UFOs. It scans the entire visible night sky every few nights, capturing about 20 terabytes of data per night and creating a 10-year movie of the dynamic universe. So what we've got is something that looks at the whole night sky on a regular basis. And before, we're kind of looking through pinholes at particular parts of the night sky we're pointing at, whereas now we've got this sweeping mega high definition. It's 3.2 gigapixel camera, the largest ever built. And it's going to be looking into like a lot of dark matter conversation is kind of coming from what it's looking at because it's looking at such a large swath of the sky. But also, any astronomer can just jump on and start pouring through the data that this telescope is gathering. So if we think about anything visiting from other planets, this thing, the Vera Rubin, should be, you know, if the visitors are aware when they're being watched, they're not going to be here half as much basically with this thing looking at the sky and sweeping it every few nights. It's a crazy amount of data, a crazy amount of detail. They've already found like exoplanets with it and stuff like that. And it's not even officially like, you know, doing its mission yet. But just like the James Webb, this thing is going to, you know, revolutionize astronomy. If you're reading into astronomy, you'll see like a lot of new developments and stuff like that. But it could also find something that will break out of that nation and be front page news, I think. What do you think when it comes to this stuff? Do you just look at it and kind of go nerd and move on or do you like, oh, that could be good? No, it could be good. I've looked it up. It looks really cool. I always enjoy seeing the emojis. $800 million was funded to the tune of, which is no, again, that's you're close to a trillion dollars there, folks. Yeah. Close to a billion dollars, trillion, fucking hell. Close to a billion dollars to fund this, which is no small amount of money looks really cool. Again, I suppose if I'm really lazy with my language here, cause it's late at night and all that kind of stuff, you're allowed. I would like one of these things. The images look spectacular, right? However, I'd like one of these things to pick up a Dyson sphere or something really cool that looks alien. You get these wonderful sprawling terabytes worth of data of images of gassy clouds and stuff like that, which are incomprehensibly big because it's just like, that's ridiculous that something can be as big as that. That it's not just a cloud you can look at. Like you wouldn't be able to look at that cloud of gas because it's so, you wouldn't even see it. But also like a lot of what you see in it is, you know, it's scanning in infrared and stuff like that. So our eyes wouldn't even pick it up. You know, these things are there without us seeing them. So it's one of those things for me. It looks cool. Technology's advancing. Getting better. You know, we're seeing further than ever before. We're seeing more than ever before. We're traveling further than ever before. But, you know, Ocean Gate. We still have issues. Yeah. But if we're so advanced, why would we crash? Is that? Well, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, no, it's an interesting one to bring up. I know you like your 90 stuff. Yeah, and I think it's relevant. And I would like to see something like, you know, I'm not going to go hard at him on it. But I saw Jesse Michaels offering Kirkpatrick $100,000 to do an interview on his channel that I don't think you're going to get more truth or crazy, dramatic kind of things out of an interview with Kirkpatrick at this point. People feel how they feel about him. I would love to see that $100,000 given to Avi Loeb to set up, you know, five more observation statements across the world. And maybe we can get a country re-blanketed or something. I was really, really annoyed. I offered Kirkpatrick $25,000 and he was thinking about it. And yeah, so I got one-upped by Jesse Michaels there. Really frustrating. Well, I mean, say what you want about Kirkpatrick, but he's not gone for the easy $100,000 there, right? He could just take it and just sit there and just nod. Play on his phone the whole time. Well, do you know what? He could, because if I was him, I'd be like, I'm just going to take this guy's money and I will sit there and be like... I'll just do the worst interview ever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. See your standards last night. Yeah, yeah. Jose Mourinho done it once, a couple of times actually in his career now where he's went into... He's done it for Real Madrid. He went into a press conference and just sat and he got asked questions and just never spoke and then left. That's the way to do it, see? That would have qualified him for the $100,000, right? But if he does take it, oh, you've took the money. If he doesn't take it, oh, you're avoiding the questions. So it's a bit of a lose-lose. It's a lose-lose, absolutely. And that's the thing, when I saw it, I was like, this is nothing but... It reminded me of Mr. Beast, you know, the kind of stunts that he pulls and it's just for clicks and stuff like that. I've still never watched any Mr. Beast stuff. Maybe Jesse's heart is in the right place, but that just reeks of not a good thing to do for me. Just a waste of money, you know? It could go so much further in other places for this subject. Yeah. And yeah, Dan, I've got a lot of questions I might park those for another day because we've gone quite long. I know you've not got hours and hours and hours. Yeah. Well, why don't we do like an AMA or something? Yeah. And we can just gather all the questions and we'll just do that. I'll get them all there properly. So off the back of anything we have said, I do want to finish up with something though. So off the back of everything we've talked about, folks, if you want, we'll do proper AMA in the coming days or week or so when Dan's got availability and so do I. So if you've sent in questions already, I've got them. I've got a huge list. Anything you want added, use the contact form on the website. Ideally, it's the best place for me. Thatufopodcast.com contact form or you can email. Either way would be great. But Dan, do you want to finish off? There's some news items in the last couple of months since you've not been on that we haven't talked about. We can kind of fire through those kind of quick fiery style if you want to bring those up. Yeah, for sure. So what did you think of the Booga Sphere? Am I saying that right? Is that what it's called? I saw these videos around of in South America You'd ask a guy with a Scottish fucking accent in some Colombian city. I think it was Booga, yeah. Booga, Booga Sphere. Booga, Booga. Yeah, Booga. Booga. I thought it was interesting. I know there's another video came out, isn't there, in the last couple of days of another one allegedly. Rony Verne had tweet that it looked like a fuel tank that had been kind of rendered a little bit. But then I know who was it said it was Eric Burleson said seeing up close the holes in it look like they're filled with little fibers. It's not like a hole. It's not been painted on. It does look interesting. For me, it seems really easy to do the science on this stuff and we should be getting that done. The videos do look quite interesting. But again, can you take any video anymore as evidence because they don't look great but in a good way because they don't look really clean and polished and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, kind of like the science video of the alien. It's like, yeah, it looks like someone just in panic kind of trying to film this thing. Yeah, that one, it's another one like the Naskimami's. I'm following it. Jaime is involved again so my flag is up because he's involved in so many hoaxes and things like that. And his son's involved. And his son's involved. His son's done the introduction stuff for the conference. Yeah, that's right. So, but Parmi wants to believe that he's sincere and good-hearted, you know, and is really believing, like, thinking that, yeah, people can give him a hundred hoaxes but he just needs one video to be real and that's it, you know. So I think he's just operating in that way, hopefully. Yeah. Yeah, they're on the drone, sorry, on the bugosphere, I thought, in the videos, they look cool, know exactly what you mean with it to kind of look in real but also they don't really make any movements that aren't just drone-like movements, right? If you just went and bought a DJI, you could move it in the same fashion as that thing in the videos. The only weird thing about it is that what we've been told about what's inside them and the markings on them and stuff like that. The markings for me are kind of janky. They look really bad. They don't look graphic. No, we always talk about when we're talking about ancient Egypt and some of the markings on stuff there. Some of them are perfect and some of them just look crap. Crop snorkels. You can see. The ones that look phenomenal and so intricate and in other ones you look and go, yeah, that was a couple of guys with boards on their feet. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it's just, you know, people mark things. So it could have been found and it's a genuine UAB but some numpty decided to do something cool on it and make it more intriguing. I've seen some people bring forward bits of art that kind of resemble it and they've said they've ripped it off. It's not similar to the art. Like, oh sorry, it looks similar but it's not exact with the art but it's janky enough that I can believe a human kind of did it after it was found. The idea of the fuel tank I thought was really intriguing. The seam is in the correct place. There's cold fusion in terms of pouring it together so that you can't see the seam and also in those tanks they have fiber optics that kind of stick out on the outside which also has been said about this bugosphere. So right now I'm leaning sceptical but follow it along as always. I imagine this happens outside the UK but you know in the UK you do that thing in school where you write a note on a balloon and you tie it up and you let it go and then someone in Cornwall writes to you one day and goes oh I found your balloon Dan here's five pounds for having your balloon or you draw a little picture or something and it floats away and they find it and usually you give your school address and someone writes to you that found the balloon. Perhaps this is just was some NHI juvenile infant that sent off this is like their school project send these around the galaxy see where they land and there's Dan sitting on his fucking high horse going oh I wasn't too impressed with the symbology and some little entity sitting there crying somewhere going and the parents trying to comfort them be like there there don't worry it's just a horrible little man with a cat picture behind them having a go at me about my symbology it's fair have you seen a sphere across the fucking cosmos no you haven't like a message in a ball yeah could be just gotta kind of continue to pay attention to these things right yeah and then the other one that came out that I don't think we've spoken about was the disc in the clouds released from Corbell they had several clips the thing going where you couldn't really see it very clearly and then they had like an AI interpreted one which initially I was really down that Jeremy even included it but he said it's included in the briefing so he was just presenting it as it was given to him totally fair in that regard but I think the AI one was what I saw passed around most and what people were talking about most about it being a sphere whereas in the original video it's quite hard to discern what's actually there what did you think I thought the content is potentially really cool very gave me like nope vibes to it the movie because it looks sideways as well right yeah if it was a disc it was like almost sideways through the clouds ghosting along I get when I saw folks saying you know we are being told it's filmed from a platform above looking down okay but other folks are saying it looks like it could be from below shooting up it's hard to discern so I'm going to take it face value but to be fair to both Jeremy and George again I think they learned really quickly if you're going to put stuff like this out embrace the community and the crowdsourcing of people who can look at this stuff and very quickly determine what it is and they put it out and say look if you can read all the shit that's on the screen if you can find anything in this that gives us size location position all that stuff that would be great I've not seen anything personally in terms of follow up that's debunked or shown that it's 100% all good so for me it's probably amongst the more interesting stuff that they've managed to get out what it is though I don't know I've seen people saying like Eclipse and stuff like that which could it be potentially but somebody would have to tell me that's got knowledge of those camera systems to be like this is why somebody would probably look and go of course it's not fucking Eclipse look at it it's okay I can't tell that do I want it to be a huge disk flying about the clouds absolutely of course I do so I would love to see more hear more on that get some follow up I think we've been burned a lot this year Dan I don't think I have to go into the detail of people presenting stuff saying it's one thing and it's something else that we talked about a lot this year I think done a lot of damage and if you look at any you know when we talk about the Wall Street Journal articles yes if I look at anything that's more public facing or if you're on Reddit or Facebook and you click on comment sections something you see a lot of or I sorry I see a lot of now is people referencing misidentifications from the last year and yeah I've seen a lot of damage to that kind of thing so I'm very wary when stuff like this goes out but I think Jeremy and George have at least put it out in the right way yeah I would agree with that the misidentifications over the past while have been frustrating and I can it's one of those things where I understand the mistakes happen and so on so forth and then you've got to kind of entertain the fact that maybe this wasn't a mistake but at the same time it's frustrating because it just gives so much ammo to the people who just don't even want this subject spoken about you know Mick West was clicking his heels jumping around his garden when he saw that and you know and it's just like one of those like ah I imagine somewhat how you feel when Rangers play and they lose 1-0 you know if there was an own goal you just be like in the lot last season oh my god you like you still come back next week to watch the game right but you're going to remember that for a long time and it's gonna you know the guy that scored the own goal you will remember that's the defining thing about him right so you're just going to remember it yep yeah 100% but no I thought I like that I've said so many times I like seeing footage especially when it comes from people that I see as credible sources not that everything they put out is 100% you know on the button but I would still like to see any of the big names in the UFO topic whether I like them or not follow them or not if if Stephen Greer puts out some footage I will go and check it out and chase it I'd rather see it than not I'm not going to be the guy who goes oh Stephen Greer's put a video out of a disc in the cloud not interested and I think I'm being a hypocrite as well this is what I like about our conversations the fact that both of us will inform ourselves about the devil's advocate position of what we speak about it we're not just like I know what I know and I am correct it's more like I know what I know I think this but I'm gonna check with x y and z I don't know and that's okay yeah 100% good place to be I think and then there were a few other things that kind of came out over the past week I want to touch on so yeah I saw something that the UK the headline was the UK to host the US style UAP hearings for military whistleblowers and then that headline's great it's really provocative and I'm like what the UK are doing hearings you know I'm hosting and then well I mean if you're hosting them your plans are further than the actual people who made this claims plans who basically when you read the article you find out that a new UK UFO disclosure group which is just you know like we did with UAP media is a collective people who just want to move the ball down the field cool very cool led by filmmaker Mark Christopher Lee has secured a meeting with the House of Lords Minister to launch public hearings now the House of Lords Minister doesn't know what they're meeting about he's not going to know until he shows up in the room with them so to say to launch public hearings that's the hope it's a good hope I'm with you but that headline really annoyed me when I read the article essentially the headline might as well have said it would be like do you know what it's like me going to the local council and inquiring about using an empty piece of land to play football on and just going yeah if I wanted to use this and if I wanted to build on it and all that kind of stuff and create a team and a newspaper then running with new football team enters English Premier League yes absolutely maybe in 25 years time with hundreds of millions of pounds of investment and things going well and yeah but all I've done is ask the council could I play football here with my mates yeah exactly that's a really good way to explain it their goal is to create a parliamentary forum and potentially a select committee empowered to hear witness testimonies shielded by non-disclosure rules but whether that happens or not remains to be seen lovely thought million miles away from it in the UK yes absolutely then we have senators around saying that the UAPDA is likely to be resubmitted to be considered this year what do you think like is that gonna would it change things because Ross interviewed senator rounds and one of the things that surprised me here in senator rounds talk was that rounds said that including NHI in the UAP disclosure act wasn't because they knew something it was because they were trying to close all of these loopholes yeah that could make the legislation ineffective they wanted to pass this legislation and go okay we passed this with sincerity we've investigated we found nothing so there's nothing there they just wanted to give it the best shot of succeeding so I would that surprised me because I can't remember if anyone explicitly said it but I certainly had the impression that they knew a bit more and therefore they'd use this language in the UAP disclosure act because they knew a bit more am I wrong on that was that your impression as well or yeah I think if they're trying to to go down the route of let's get this act through and we're going to use all the legislation that gets passed to really push things forward then it's the same as me messaging Sydney Sweeney every month and hoping she replies so yeah that isn't happening I think that I don't see the point in it at this point as a little bit like you know when we said Skywatcher are they talking to someone else in the background have they got a different modus operandi then we can actually see from a public perception I think and I think we've talked about this before that there's a chance that the UAP disclosure act they're doing it for reasons such as like you say around mentioning we're trying to close loopholes we're trying to go well why can't you put this through why won't you put this through I think again there is this broader issue of the world right now is a shit show and I appreciate how hard it must be to get anything put through Congress and the Senate the way things are right now well depending what they are I see stuff as going through to then be the folks trying to get the UFO stuff through which surely is still how a lot of this stuff is looked at again age of disclosure timing the right people seeing stuff like that whistleblowers coming forward hearings having a public impact I think there would almost have to be a perfect storm of various things just falling into place at the right time that a UEP disclosure act gets passed and it's in its full form but that would be new whistleblowers coming forward a big public interest a David Grush times 10 you know yeah multiple David Grush's coming forward real real progress real tangible wait a minute not only when have we knocked the door open I've mentioned before and it opens a bit and then closes no no this time someone sticks a foot in the gap and goes no it's not closing this time and we would need a few things I think to fall into place for it to really really have that impact and again plenty of people get in touch with me to let me know that the eminent domain stuff of course is already in the US Constitution so it's a bit of a unnecessary thing to have there almost more of a I don't know a public it's a bit of a show like yeah but we want this approved what's there already it's funny you mention a bit of a show because and this this came up I think it was Eric Weinstein that kind of first put the idea of kayfabe out into the world with this subject but it's come up again recently where I'm seeing a lot of people talk about disclosure this process that you and I are you know we're commenting on through through the whole of this show I guess that it's like professional wrestling that you have opposition you have a heel everyone knows what's going on and actually they're just playing kind of you know play fighting for our benefit to put on a show and that kind of stuff it gets under my skin a little bit not not in a bad way I just mean it makes me think because you know you look at for example you know Mike Turner was told we were told that he was blocking a bill the passing of the UAP still called Mike Turner that's right but then when you look at someone like Senator Rounds or Schumer and you look at their funding you can see that they're being funded by the same people that have funded Turner Lockheed all these people that are said to be the secret keepers so why on one side have we got people being paid by Lockheed trying to get this out but on the other side you got supposedly being people being paid by Lockheed to conceal it and it's just like is is this all just for show like you just slow walking us down this path into the inevitable we are not alone and no other information whatsoever is this what control disclosure is is this kind of kayfabe wrestling kind of thing I don't know I'm entertained just like with wrestling but all I could think of there is the undershumer I know there's a few folks that do various different podcasts and attitude of aggression I think it is there gets in touch quite often and they'll appreciate that one so but yeah I get folks who are like wrestling rangers and UFOs all on the same podcast so that's a neat that's a really good niche maybe we should give all the figures in disclosure a wrestler alternate just so we can be like oh it's Gary Nolan with the steel chair at times yeah who's going to cash in there Ross Kultak would do the cash and the money in the bank contract things get a little bit dully runs down and goes no no it's Lockheed Martin tech everyone kicks off we could do that as bonus content perhaps one time yeah everybody but yeah anything else then the only so actually two more things sorry so one you know Tim Phillips has been doing interviews we know that because you've awesomely got to talk to him but he addressed something that has been a point of contention for a long while about people showing up to the tic tac events the ships the Princeton the USS Princeton after it happened and taking these data tapes yeah and we've been told no there were no data tapes we've been told well where the data bricks are meant to be they're not so they're missing well Tim Phillips kind of confirmed in a recent interview with Event Horizon that UAP data from the tic tac incident was taken by DARPA scientists dressed in black he said they did land they did retrieve the materials and they left was that to do with the tic tac maybe we don't know it could be something else but I wanted to be sure to bring that up because I thought that was really interesting that arrow found that yes someone did land and they did take the data tapes after I remember Dave David Fravor kind of David Fravor the pilot saying no that couldn't have happened I knew I was so high rank that I would know everything that happened on both those ships turns out he didn't so I guess right there we have we've been told several times that fighter pilots there's a little bit of ego there so I guess maybe that's just that so yeah we know now and I hope that gets followed up on I'm sure we'll hear more about it in the arrow historical report and then the last thing I wanted to bring out was that when the Wall Street Journal articles came out a kind of response article came out from a New York Times columnist it was like an op-ed and he posed a question that I just wanted to leave people with and have them think about and send in their answers and we can talk about them so he says no one should assume that debunking explanations filter through Kirkpatrick and other sources are themselves trustworthy if we've been living through a golden age of strange leaks and insider claims then what exactly might this era's particular psyop be intended to conceal so what I'd like people to let you know so we can talk about is what do you think if this is a psyop what is the UFO psyop covering up are you asking me no you can give me your answer now you can think about it if you want and we can talk about it when we talk about other people's but what do you think it would be I think that's all for today I think I will think about it and we will kick off if Dan can be available in the coming days or week or so unless he gets kicked out the US and oh my god it's ice in the background then I'll do it you'll just see like the alligator Alcatraz behind me you know you remember they were doing that thing for a long time where people were like swatting gamers on live streams which is a really really bad idea because people died with that kind of shit didn't they and that's why I don't do live streams because Dan would get one of those ice raids done in his home like as he sits like in the background the guys coming in taking them right out you fucking get but no no we can leave that one there and that's I'll think about that one because it's late here at night and my brain switching off and yeah it's been very good no yeah and half an hour catching up again before and uh clearing the deck I guess yeah and and just catching up yeah um so get in touch folks anything you want to contribute uh to the next mega so give us a shout uh thank you very much for listening thus far as we rambled on a little bit towards the end but in a good way I would like to thank people enjoy that Dan um and yeah Dan are you doing anything right now you want to plug promote or let people know of uh not quite yet I do have something but it'd be about a month and I'll come in soon what it is coming soon yeah I'm going to use that hashtag soon the soon inning for people that love that will it be before the age of disclosure probably yes yeah you'd fucking hope so and coming the side of 2025 anyway but yeah thank you folks check out the that ufo podcast.com uh for slash contact fill in the form submit your questions thoughts opinions everything like that and or you can stick those in email format ufo uap am at gmail.com as per usual and of course don't forget to go and pre-order your copy of the book is available now for pre-order and the pre-order grifter look at that proper grift no you're not and you're providing my fucking one yeah well I I get a pound I think for every book that sells so you know and you work hard so so you should get a pound for almost cried several times doing that fucking thing can promise you I don't cry so yeah so when people read it and there's like a little splodge of blood on the page they know it's because the nose bleeds from the crying and the pressure absolutely sometimes there was generally times I was like oh fuck this not even like an emotional way would even been dramatic just me gonna fuck this seriously man this is too much effort um I'm not it's like schoolwork yeah I'm not a big effort guy so but yes no thank you so much folks for checking things out Dan thank you very much for joining us again it's been a while uh don't leave it so long obviously the next week would be ideal and we'll sort something out thank you for listening to everyone and uh yeah hopefully see everyone soon and we can get into the why of the psyop and all the questions people have sent in yes and Dan remind me that that's the question I have to start off the the next one with so okay awesome thanks folks speak to you very soon that is all for this episode thank you very much for tuning in don't forget to leave the podcast a review on your chosen platform apple and spotify do make a huge difference to the algorithm if you're checking the show on youtube please don't forget to like and leave a comment on here as well any sharing you do is very much appreciated on any social media platform and finally you can listen to shows ad-free and sponsor-free and their glorious full versions by subscribing for less than the price of a coffee on apple spotify just search that ufo podcast premium youtube you can sign up and be a member or you can do that through patreon.com thank you very much for listening folks