Bryce Zabel on UFOs, Hollywood, and the Fight for Disclosure

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Now this is Taxes. Intuit TurboTax. See guarantee details at TurboTax dot com slash guarantees. Only available with TurboTax experts. Real-time updates only in iOS mobile app. Hi everyone. And welcome back to That UFO Podcast. My name is Andy. And I am joined today by an award-winning television producer and writer. He is the creator of the cult classic series Dark Skies. Has developed and produced numerous TV and film projects. And even served as the chairman of the Television Academy. The organization behind the Emmy Awards. He is also the author of books like A.D. After Disclosure. Co-authored with Mr. Richard Dolan of course. And most recently co-hosts the Need to Know Podcast. Where he explores the mysteries of UFOs and UAP. Welcome back to the podcast Bryce Zabel. Bryce welcome. Thank you so much. That sounds so good. I feel like we should stop now while I am ahead. But I am ready to plow ahead. Well do you know what Bryce. This is your second appearance on the podcast. And the first time we have gone into a little bit more detail. On your background and things like that. But if someone is listening right now. Let's give them the Cliff Notes version. Of you know. Who is Bryce Zabel. And kind of what has brought you to the dance. Sure of course. Well I mean the short Cliff Notes thing. Is literally that I started out in journalism. I was a broadcast journalist. Trained in college. And worked in local news. As an anchor and a reporter. And ended up at CNN in Los Angeles. Where that was my best. I think I was the youngest correspondent. In the world at that time. Not true today of course. And then a funny thing happened. I thought well I am going to end up moving around the world. Trying to be an anchorman in various markets. And my wife said have you ever written a screenplay. Read a screenplay. And I hadn't. So I read one. And I wrote one. And they bought it. And they made 100 plus episodes of it in Canada. And I said if people are going to keep paying me to do this. I'm going to keep doing it. And so here I am. Almost 25 years later still doing it. So yeah. And so I have semi specialized in science fiction. And UFO projects. But not completely. And I'll just leave you with this thought. The one thing that I'm very excited about right now. Is I have a movie scheduled to shoot. Early next year in Italy. It's called The Last Battle. And it's about the last battle of World War II in Europe. And very excited. And it has nothing to do with UFOs. So that's my story. I thought there was going to be a connection there. Because the Sol Foundation has the third symposium in Milan. Or just outside Milan in a couple of weeks. And I don't know. Are you going Bryce? I'm not going. I'd rather go as a speaker than as an attendee for something like that. I'd rather somebody else paid the hotel bill and all that. But it was good. I went to the second one last year in San Francisco. Met a lot of people. Had a great time. Learned a lot. So if anyone is in the neighborhood and can pop into that Sol Foundation gathering in late October. Which is this month. So late this month. I thought it was worth it. I enjoyed it. Yeah. I'm going to this one. This is my first event. And people listening to this might be thinking Andy is being paid to promote it. I paid for my own ticket. My own hotel. My own flights. I am very much going as an attendee. But yeah. Looking forward to it. Andy. Don't you wish that you actually were paid to promote all the things people suspect you're paid to promoting? It's maddening. I mean the only time I ever get any money from anything is I put ads in a podcast. You know. I don't paywall anything. It's too complicated for me. I just show up and see what happens. Yeah. Nothing like a cool refreshing Pepsi Max. No. Well I'm not being paid to promote that either. Well on the other hand. I'll see that Pepsi Max and raise you a Coke Zero. Ah. There you go. Listen. Let's see who gets the first opportunity to promote that product. Yeah. Yeah. Listen. It's been a hell of a crazy year Bryce. Yes. For the UFO topic. And I'm going to say for you. It's been a real year of change. Need to know has undergone a transition. I think that's fair to say. Ross Coulter departing. Richard Dolan coming in. What an incredible substitution for me. I'm personally a big fan of Ross Coulter. I'm a big fan of Richard Dolan. Richard was very kind to write the little bit on the back of my book for me. Very early on. And they're two very different characters. But I want to start there and get that conversation out the way. Because when I said you were coming on. You can imagine lots of questions had a similar theme. How has that all been for you personally. With the change from Ross to Richard. And the whole situation. Well. Let me just start by saying. Just like you. I'm a big fan of Richard Dolan and Ross Coulter. I like them both. I've worked with them both. I've partnered with them both. I mean Richard and I partnered going back to 2010. On writing AD After Disclosure. So it's not like. You know. I'd never heard of a guy before. Never worked with him. We knew each other very well. And Ross and I did 65 episodes of Need to Know together. Which is not nothing. I mean as you know. You're a podcaster. And you know. Let's face it. Ross and I are 17 time zones across. Now I realize I get less sympathy from you. Because everyone you talk to is probably in a different time zone. But for us it was very difficult. Because 17 time zones. That's literally a different day. And we also had a producer on the east coast. I'm on the west coast. It was just very hard. You know. To keep a strong schedule. And also. Let's be honest. Ross has created quite a career for himself. Over at News Nation. And he has a podcast there. Called Reality Check. That he does. I mean. Way more often than he and I ever did Need to Know. I mean. Reality Check seems to have a new show on every three days. Or something like that. So. You know. I wish Ross the best. And you know. Honestly. It's a. It was a gift to work with Ross Coulthard. Okay. He's super talented. He's super informed. He's hard working. He's a terrific journalist. His opinion is valid. I respect his opinion. And I valued it. And you know. When he and I started doing the podcast. We didn't know anything about podcasts. We were just on a Zoom call. And said. You know. I wonder. This sounds like it might be a podcast. And we said. Well maybe we should record it. Do you want to do one? I think I'm the guy that said. Do you want to do one? And Ross goes. Yeah. What about Thursday? I mean. You know. Ross is a man of action. And I'm a producer. Who's also a man of action. So we just made it happen. And you know. I mean. Probably people would like there to be a lot more intrigue to it. But there's just an ebb and flow in every relationship. Personal or professional. And it was just very hard to keep. You know. Getting it done. I'm thrilled that Richard could step in. And it's a different show. You know. Shows are defined by the people who are on them. You can have all the content distinctions you want in mind for like. Well what is this show going to be? What is it really about? But then you put real world people into it. You get a different show. Ross is a hard charging journalist. Who showed up for every episode. And said. Here's what I got going mate. You know. And it was like. It was like being chained to a tree in a hurricane. You know. You just got to hang on. And I really had to bring my game up. To play on that playground with him. Fantastic. Rich is a different guy. He doesn't. Like me. He's less compelled by following the constant daily chatter of this thing. Like who's going to be the new whistleblower? Where are they going to speak? Who said this about that? Both Rich and I have always from the beginning of when we met. Been very compelled about like. Well if you accept that there is a phenomenon. And it involves UFO technology and appearances. What does it mean? And so I hope to have. Where Ross and I had a report. I hope Rich and I have a conversation. It'll be different in that way. But you know. I mean I'm open to any other questions you have. But that's my take at the moment. No and listen I'll be you said beforehand you nothing's off limits. And I think the listeners appreciate that honesty as well. Because it doesn't always happen in the UFO topic. And I'm also not a drama podcast. I don't like all the the rumors and gossip. To an extent you know. Unless it's UFO related. And people people are different. People change. There does seem to have been like a point though. Where the tic-tac conversation. The Lockheed Martin thing came up. Was that something to do with it? And there was a kind of real difference of opinion. Because I can appreciate that when someone has one stance. And it really seemed like you challenged Ross on that. And I can really respect that. I think as an interviewer. A host. A co-host. Whatever you want to be. You've got to be able to professionally push back on something you don't agree with. Otherwise you're just sitting nodding like a nodding dog all day. So was that something that caused an issue? Or was it naturally a breaking point? Well listen. I hope that if someone is going to take these comments. They don't take them out of content. Out of context. As again. Ross is a very good friend of mine. I like the guy. I'd have him on the show tomorrow if he wanted to be on. You know. I mean. He's a terrific guy. And a terrific journalist. I've learned a ton. Preparing these shows with him. So. You know. There's not some deep-seated conflict. But I will say this. You know. You raised the question. People that host together don't have to have the same feelings about everything. You don't have to agree about everything. In fact. I always thought that the show actually was kind of elevated when Ross and I might disagree about something. Right. Because it was like. Yeah. We shouldn't all be nodding to each other. This is a mystery. It's a large. Grand. Mystery. And all of us. Yourself included. And the people who are listening today. Are all chasing the facts of this mystery in our own way. Okay. So. Without getting too deep into it. I mean. The truth of the matter is. I do disagree with Ross. On the Tic Tac issue. Potentially. I mean. He said on our last show. Something about. He could state categorically. That the Tic Tac was Lockheed Martin technology. You know. He's got sources for that. I can't take that away from him. He's got sources for that. He believes it. And I. He has every right to believe it. I don't think I believe it. But I don't have sources like he has. It strikes me as odd. I mean. I have a hard time. Getting my own brain wrapped around how that would actually be true. But you know what. I've read a lot of different people in the aftermath. And there's a very wide divergence of opinion on this topic, Andy. So it's really hard to say. I guess for me personally. On that issue. I mean. Again. I want to emphasize. This is on the issue. It's not about a personality conflict. Or whatever. We were both busy guys. I got a lot of things going on in my life and career. And so did Ross. And it was. You know. We did 65 episodes. There's nothing wrong with that. But I just have a hard time for myself reconciling that the technology in particular that was on display with the Nimitz case in 2004 was made by Lockheed Martin or controlled by Lockheed Martin or anything. I just. I look at that technology and what I understand about it and say that feels very anomalous to me. But again. Let's just underline this. Ross and I are friends. We can disagree. Disagreements about issues is hardly why we're not doing a podcast together. I mean. In fact. In fact. I always made a joke about it. If Ross and I went on every episode and just argued with each other tooth and nail. It'd be the most watched podcast. You know. Out there. Because it's. Conflict's interesting and all that. So. Anyway. That's the best answer I can give you. That. I think it's okay. I'll disagree with Richard Dolan. You know. He and I don't agree about everything. We haven't explored all our disagreements yet. But he and I have disagreed from the beginning. Dolan and I. I mean. You know. When we were breaking 80 after disclosure. One of us would float an idea. And the other would go. Yeah. I'm not sure that's right. And then they'd posit something. And the other guy would go. Well. What about. So I come from a career most recently in Hollywood, Andy. And what happens in Hollywood is when you're creating a show or writing something. It's a collaborative medium in Hollywood. So it's the best idea wins. And so quite often, you know, I'll write the first draft of a script. But man. I mean. I get notes from directors. From executives. From studio executives. Girlfriends. I mean. Everybody gives you a note. You know. And so. The idea that somebody would question something you did. Or that you. That doesn't invalidate friendship or work relationships. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder? With a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales. Another for inventory. A separate one for accounting. Before you know it. You are drowning in software. Instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one. Fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM. Accounting. Inventory. E-commerce. H-R. And more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business. Whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use. Customizable. And designed to streamline every process. So you can focus on what really matters. Running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. No, and that's good to hear. I think for me, selfishly, Bryce, it's been a little bit like, I'm treating it like my mom and dad have got divorced, but I'm getting two Christmases now. You're still getting to hear, Bryce, on Need to Know. And the new stepdad's wonderful. We've got Richard in, and we like Richard. And you've got Ross over on his new show. And not new. He was doing reality check. But like you say, he's got the follow-up, the Q&A. He's a busy guy. And I very much enjoyed the content from both of you. But it has changed. And I think for me, I suppose, I bet you yourself are thinking, am I going to do this? And is it going to feel the same? Do I still want to do it? That would naturally come into it. But has it given you a bit of a renewed energy or enjoyment around the topic, having that change of tact and a change of conversation? That's a very good question. And I'll be completely honest with you. I wax and wane on the energy thing when it comes to podcasts because there are times it just takes so much energy to stay current. And like I said, I do other things. I write feature films and I develop TV series and I write books and I do other things. And so the energy to be up to date on the UFO issue is very strong sometimes, what's needed. And there are times when I feel burned out and I just go, I don't know if I can do this. And so, for example, talking to you right now is an example of something I don't usually do, which is go in, not know what we're going to talk about, and just shoot the breeze. What I always tried to do with Need to Know with Ross and with Rich is not to plan it down to the minute details, but to at least say to each other, what do you want to talk about this time? And sort of have an idea, and then I would like to prepare for it. I find, quite honestly, that my memory is not as strong as some other people. There are other people that just, well, Ross seems to have a photographic memory. I don't know how he does it, but I don't remember the details of things. I have to bone up on things a little bit before I talk. But that's not your question. Your question was, do I feel a new energy? And I always feel an energy when the mics are on and I'm talking to somebody really interesting. And that applied to Ross, it applies to Rich, and it applies to you and all the other people that I've talked to. They provide the energy to me. And if anything, there are times when I feel like I'm letting everybody down because I haven't done my homework sufficiently sometimes. But I will say this, and I can't tell the detail right now, but there is a project that I've just been hired to do. It's big. It's going to be controversial. It's official, and I should be able to talk about it within the month. So I'll send you a text when that happens. But like right now, I'm not at liberty because the contract just got signed and they don't want people talking about it yet. So I keep busy, and I do have energy for the topic. I just, for example, finished writing a draft of a feature film with a director attached that's UFO-oriented. So it's like I guess the thing is I express myself and my opinions on the UFO topic in a variety of ways. Podcasting is one of them, but it's not the only one. No, you're a very busy guy. I definitely get that from your time. I mean, to be fair, it's not all bad. I've seen your Facebook pictures of you at the Emmys and walking the red carpet. So, you know, it's not all hard work, is it? By the way, I have to say, thank you for even bringing that up. September is a particularly strange month for me because that's when they do the Emmys. But it isn't just one Emmy show. There's always the primetime Emmys. That's the one everybody sees. But the week prior to that, there are two creative arts Emmys where they honor the people that are below the line. And everybody from makeup and hair to, you know, production design. So those are three major shows. Then there are these parties. And the thing is, I'm not complaining. I'm blessed that I get to go to them. But they all hit you all at the same time. I'm not the young guy I used to be. I still get tired and I go, oh, my God, do I have to go to the Emmys tomorrow? And I know that sounds so stupid. But you get tired sometimes and you're just like, because it's a big amount of energy because you're on. You know how, imagine if you were on as you are on a podcast for a day at a time. You know, it's just, it's a lot of being on. It's a challenge. But I love it. It's great. My family has loved it. I've been able to take some of them to the Emmys over the years. And, and, uh, I made so many good friends, um, you know, over the years by going to the Emmys that, um, I love it. I'll keep doing it. The Emmys this year fell a few days after the hearings. And I wonder on, on, on the carpet, on speaking to those, the stars, does the conversation turn to UFOs at all? That's interesting. The answer, the, the short answer is not very often. Okay. It depends. Like I saw, um, uh, why am I, I'm now, see, this happens to me. I'm blanking out the lead of the pit who won outstanding actor. Um, Noah Wiley, excuse me, pardon me, Noah. I apologize. I saw him on the red carpet. I have this habit of predicting who's going to win the leading actor thing. I predicted it for Kiefer Sutherland 20 years ago, and I was right. So I keep doing it. So I said to him, you know, you're going to win, you know, congratulations. I hope you enjoy your Emmy. And he was like, boy, I hope he rubbed my little Emmy pin and said, I, you know, I hope you're right. And we did talk ever so briefly about the fact that he was the star of falling skies, which is an alien invasion piece. And I've created an alien invasion piece in dark skies. So we both have that sort of comment that could come up. So Ted Sarandos who runs Netflix and, um, you know, briefly brought up a tangential UFO topic in the conversation. But, you know, most of the people you're on the red carpet, you're being funneled through. So unless you're sitting with somebody during the commercial breaks where you have a lot of time to talk, um, not usually, but I will also put, point this out. When I was chairman, I got to sit with Tom Hanks and Steven Spielberg on the, on the, on the year that they won for band of brothers. Brothers, but of course you're sitting next to Steven Spielberg, who's Mr. UFO. And yet it never came up because I just felt like, you know what? He's here to win an Emmy for his war movie. And he doesn't really need me to be hitting him up about UFOs. I'll just try to be pleasant. So, so the, the long answer to a short question is not very often. You really have to work at it. Well, that's fair. I wonder with your, with your connections and where you're based, have you heard anything as to why this age of disclosure document? Still hasn't seen the light of day. And I wonder what your thoughts are when it premiered at South by Southwest back in March, it seemed like it was very much geared up to be released at a time and place. And that doesn't seem to have happened, obviously. I'd like to tell you, I know the answer to that, but I don't, I do know that it irritates me because I know a lot of people that have seen it. And, uh, you know, when it premiered at South by Southwest, I think there is every expectation that, wow, we're going to see this. And then it's going to be out and take the world by storm. And I've not seen it, but the people I know that have seen it have been pretty impressed by it. However, there's a short life, uh, there's a shelf life, if you will, on these things. And you and I both know every day that it doesn't find distribution is a day that makes it harder because some of the things that are so shocking, probably in the age of disclosure may not be as shocking next week. You know, we've, we've had whistleblowers and hearings and things like that. So hard to say, um, I wish them the best. I hope they find a way to get it distributed. Um, I tend to think that if they haven't gotten it distributed, it's not because of the topic. It's not like somebody is like, Oh, UFO. No, don't do that. I think it's probably because there's some behind the scenes machinations about ownership or distribution or contracts or something. I mean, for the, for something that got that kind of positive reception, not to be out right now, there's just something you and I don't know. Yeah. And I think the longer it's not out, Bryce, like you say, rumors start to fill those gaps, don't they? And there is a lot of talk that person X is putting a stop to it due to money or person Y doesn't want it released yet because of stuff. And that sours the whole idea behind it, which was maybe it was still someone making a feature. They're going to want to make money off it. Dan Farah is going to want to make his money back. I just got to tell you, I, I do not believe, um, for the people who think, Oh, it's got to be interference. I just don't buy that. I, Hollywood, if it's shown, anything has been, they'll make a movie about almost anything if they think that they'll profit from it. And this doesn't apply just to Hollywood. This applies to the film industry where you are. I mean, films and TV get made because people are going to watch it and, and in one way or another, advertising or something is going to pay for it. There has to be a reason that is not government interference. To the extent the government has been involved in UFOs in Hollywood, which is something I do know a lot about. Um, it's usually not overt. That would be fairly overt. There's no reason to do that. I mean, um, the, the, the, the government, if you will, let Lou Elizondo run all over the world saying roughly the same thing. They approved his book. Uh, I, I just, I just don't buy that. I don't think it was interfered with. I think when the truth comes out, it'll be probably what'll happen is someday we'll, we'll hear, Oh, well, it was because of this or that. That's very technical, you know, and, and yet people will say, that's just what they're saying. Right. I know that I, so we'll never know exactly. Although, you know, I've had lunch with Dan Farah before. Um, uh, maybe I should call him up and ask him, but I, you know, frankly, I doubt that he would tell me right now because he's obviously embroiled in something trying to get this thing out on the market. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you're drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload, no more juggling logins, just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process, so you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. And Bryce, you'll know far better than me that movies get made for budgets into the hundreds of millions of dollars that never see the light of day. There's a few famous examples. I know Glasgow City Centre last year was shut down for a long time to film the Batgirl movie, which I believe they had spent well over $100 million, and it was shelved. It's not coming out. It's not going to see the light of day, and it's been binned. And I don't think Age of Disclosure had anywhere near a budget into the hundreds, let alone tens of millions of dollars. And, yeah, these things go away for various reasons. Although, you know, listen, that's an extreme example because the truth is most times if you spend $100 million on something, you're going to finish it, and you're going to put it out. The only reason that explains that one, though, is when you're talking about Batgirl, you're also talking about Batman, and you're talking about DC Comics, and you're talking about Warner Brothers. And there's a lot of brand protection packaged into that. So instead of looking at it as, wow, they lost $100 million on it, they may be looking at it and saying, well, we actually, according to our numbers, we're gaining $500 million because we're going to roll out a different Batwoman. You know, at a different time, in a different way, or as part of this new DC universe, or, you know, whatever. So, yeah, probably that's, but there are films that get started, that get abandoned, and that does happen. Not often, but it does happen. Well, speaking of the current lay of the land, I want to know your thoughts on the hearings that did happen a few weeks ago that have become quite controversial. I'd love to know your take on the testimony that was provided, and also your view of the video that was shown. There was two videos, but the video, the Hellfire Missile video, which has become rather controversial. What's your take on where things are a few weeks on? Well, that's a, I think that is a tough question because, I mean, I've seen the video. You've seen it. A lot of people have seen it. My first response when I saw it was, you know, it's hard for me to tell what I'm seeing exactly. I mean, I understand that it wasn't a normal thing I was seeing, but I'm not an expert at recognition of those things, so I have to rely on other people who do that kind of thing for a living. A lot of people think it's very anomalous. I don't know enough about it to argue with them or to, you know, to proselytize for it. I thought that the hearings, as hearings, were pretty valid. There was a lot said that I found powerful, compelling. George Knapp, to me, who is not only a friend, but I just thought that is the hearings we're talking about, the ones that now present, yeah. I thought he, he's one of the great communicators of our age, you know. Every, when I saw him in his Amazon special, I sent him a text and said, you look like the Hemingway of UFOs. I mean, he's just aged beautifully into his role. He is, he is a person who tells it like it is, who's done the hard work, and I was glad to see him getting the recognition there. And, you know, if anything, the hearings, I can't say I'm not happy they're having hearings, but I am not blown away by the structure of the hearings. You know, bring multiple people up, let them speak. The hearings are a couple hours, and then you're done. Contrast that with how the American nation dealt with Watergate in the 70s, right? That was a Senate investigation, and it was on every day. I mean, people were watching it like a TV series, and everybody came in and testified, and you could draw your own conclusions. If I had my druthers about this thing, I would, I think, if there's ever a topic that would lend itself to that structure, it would be UFOs. I would say, start hearings on UFOs and keep them going, right? Let all the people that have spoken for 45 minutes speak for four hours, right, under heavy questioning, and bring in new people. And when they bring something up, call in the thing that they, there's just a, the hearings as they currently exist are more theatrical than they are investigative. And I don't know whether that's the consequence of who this chairwoman is or whether that's what their estimation of what the public's ability to, you know, handle this information is. I don't really know, but they leave me wanting more. At the same time, they kind of bore me in their, I know a lot of the stuff that's being said. You do, too. So I'm partly tapping my fingernails on the desk while I'm watching them, and at the same time asking for more. I mean, for my money, I'd have brought those four people. Each one got a day. I mean, I'd like to see them talk for a day. And as you well know, when you do a podcast, you know, you and I could do 45 minutes on anything. If somebody wanted, if we were going to talk about our favorite diet drink, we could go 45 minutes, right? But if you were to put us on the spot and say, we need you to go eight hours under heavy questioning, well, at a certain point, your talking points run out. At a certain point, all you got left is the truth, as you understand it. I wish we could get to that. And I actually think we will. I mean, there's my prediction that these sort of showboat hearings, which, by the way, are great. Nobody ever had them before. You know, this is a new thing, but I think they're going to have to morph into something more, particularly if they're going to be presented to the public as an investigation of national security. Well, if it's really national security, then it shouldn't be like, okay, well, we had one in September. Maybe we'll have one next February. That's just, if it's national security, you better get to the bottom of it. Here's a question for you then. And to reference, we talked about the Age of Disclosure documentary. If that was released in cinemas nationwide, across the US, at a time when cinema is struggling, and I'm a big cinema fan myself. I've got an unlimited card in the UK. I like to go and watch. The screenings are regularly a tenth filled here in the UK. So cinemas are struggling. If you released Age of Disclosure, and on that same weekend, you got Super Size Me 2 was released as a documentary. So Morgan Spurlock, you know, I'm going to eat McDonald's for another 30 days. Did he die? I can't even remember, actually. He did. He passed away. Yeah, so he's not doing that. But say somebody else comes in. Folks who are listening, don't try this at home. Yeah. Yeah. So they go for Burger King instead, right? And they're going to do that for 30 days. And if you released that documentary, An Age of Disclosure, in the cinema for a weekend, Barbie Oppenheimer style, do you think most folks are going to go see Age of Disclosure? Or do you think most folks are going to go see the guy eat for 30 days at McDonald's? Probably the McDonald's one. But that's changing a little bit. And, you know, I don't want to be too pessimistic because I do think, okay, if people who are open to a disclosure documentary are this much of the spectrum, and the spectrum's that big, okay, we are now enlarging the spectrum that will pay attention to it. It's not perfect. We haven't gotten there 100% yet. But, you know, let's say that a piece of smoking gun video, real smoking gun, not like, okay, this is gun camera footage, and we think this is being hit by a hellfire missile, but something where you literally see something in HD get hit by a hellfire missile, and the thing it hits, you don't know what it is. That'll get people in theaters. That'll get them to their TV sets. That'll change everything. I mean, all these networks and cables and everybody who's got journalism that looks like it's on its last legs is going to be invigorated when something like that happens. And you'll be doing your share of interviews on those shows, I predict. I would hope so. This is a face for radio, not TV. I'll leave that to the better-looking folks, Bryce. I want to sidebar very quickly because this is something I think you touched on last time as well. You've written several books, including, I think it was 2013, Surrounded by Enemies, What If Kennedy Survived Dallas? So you're a big JFK buff. I am. And I want to take the opportunity to ask you how you've found this Secrets Task Force's work. Now, many folks listening to this will know it from the UFO perspective, which seems lacking in terms of any real progress. But they've done more digging into the JFK assassination. Have you followed that along and kind of where things are at? I have followed it, although there's nothing like writing a book to be completely embedded in the topic, when I wrote the JFK book. And by the way, I'm still very proud of that book. As you said, it's called Surrounded by Enemies, What If Kennedy Survived Dallas? So it's a what if, but it's a pretty educated what if. So I really am proud of it. I hope somebody might read it someday. But I didn't even dip my toe in the JFK book into this sort of the UFO connection. Because as you know, that's what Dark Skies was all about. I'd already sort of done that. Dark Skies, the pilot episode, is about how JFK gets a piece of the Roswell footage. He's going to tell the truth in his second term. And then, of course, he gets assassinated. And that becomes the thrust of the series. He's kind of, that's the detritus that the protagonist has left to try to sort through. It's hard to say. Let me just put it this way. When my co-creator, Brent Friedman, and I did Dark Skies, we actually, you know, this is pre-internet. So we weren't going to the internet or chat GPT and say, tell me about this. We basically said, what if we take the greatest conspiracy of all-time UFOs with the second greatest conspiracy of all-time JFK and put them in an atom collider and smash them together and see what we get? So what we got, we didn't think was part of anything else. But in the years since Dark Skies has been out and since it's on the internet, you see all this new talk about documents. You see talk about Kennedy basically thinking he might do exactly what we said he might do in Dark Skies. And I've kind of looked at that and said, I don't know what to make of that. I haven't seen any documents that are of uncontested provenance that actually proved JFK had a real interest in UFOs. He may have had a real interest in preventing nuclear war and didn't want UFOs or potential UFOs to cause that. So that's a very ungood, that's not a good answer to your question because, yeah, when the Kennedy documents, for example, have been released in various troves that they've been released, I'm just one human being. I'm not the New York Times, you know, I don't have a group of people that will read the documents with and for me and then we'll all have big discussions about it. Instead, I'm looking at 3,000 pages and going, when in the world am I going to read all this? And if I've learned anything, though, as a journalist, it would be, and by the way, in ufology, we know this as well, the Robertson, is it the Robertson? No, the, what's the panel that was empowered in 1969? Was that Robertson? The guy that ran it? Anyway, the guy that ran it didn't even read the report. He wrote the cover page for the report, and that's what every journalist read. And he was negative in his cover document, and the report was far more open to it. And so the problem with journalism, if you rely on them to tell you what's in those 3,000 documents, is it is written by people who are on deadline who don't know anything about the topic to begin with, usually or often. So this, again, proves the point. If you want to know more about it, you've got to get into it. And the honest, absolute, honest answer to your question is, I haven't done the work deeply on that at this point. But I will say this, this new project I'm working on will cause me to do that work very deeply. So in about a year, I'm going to have a lot more to say about that. That's good to know. And I suppose there's probably an element when you get boxes or warehouses full of documents declassified. There's a reliance on people looking at them and going, that's too much to dig through and trying to find the nuances and little bits of information. We're probably fortunate in the UFO topic where there are people who live for that and like to go through archives and documents and pull that information out. And let's tip our hat to one of the great researchers of ufology, Stanton Friedman. Stanton was a friend of mine toward the end of his life, not, well, I actually, I met him during Dark Skies and I optioned one of his books. And he actually used the Dark Skies alien peering through the American flag on the cover of his book. So I got to know him. And this guy did the work. I mean, he would, he knew where all these places were and he, he would go there and go through box after box after box. And in each box, he'd read the documents. And he was all about saying that the big picture is in the little detail. And time and again, Stan would prove that you could find things by just being patient. So he would sit his ass down at a table, you know, at, at, at an archive and he would read for 10 hours and then he'd come back the next day and do it again. And so my hat is off to him. It's more than I've done. And, um, and I think, um, I think he learned a lot of things because he did that. So, um, yeah, let's hope more people can do that. And, and by the way, the Kennedy documents, I still would bet if there's half a dozen people working in the media today that have read them, I'd be surprised. I don't think they have. Yeah. I, again, you wonder how much the appetite is there when the big story right now is the Epstein stuff still. And I've just seen some clips earlier today around Jared Moskowitz, who folks will know representative Moskowitz, who is involved in a UFO topic in some respects asking is Kash Patel, the director of the FBI. Yes. Is that right? Yeah. My American politics is better than my UK. At least for the next, at least now today. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I saw him getting grilled, uh, and he got asked a really awkward question around when are they going to, um, when are they going to start the investigation into the fraudulent signature of Donald Trump, uh, being placed upon the Epstein documents. And he's getting around the question, clearly believing it as Donald Trump's signature and not to get into all of that. Um, right. But it was an interesting way to ask that. And you're like, God, are people really going, and again, this is right now, Bryce, I feel we're in a little bit of a dip with the UFO topic publicly because the Epstein stuff has overshadowed it. And I've said a million times when those first hearings happened with Bray and Moultrie, um, back three years ago, I think it was now three or four years ago. Uh, I was watching it in one room in the kitchen on YouTube and my wife was watching the Johnny Depp and Amber Heard trial in the other room that was getting millions of views, millions of hits. The UFO hearing wasn't, as much as us in the community, the journalists, the podcasters, the bloggers, the folks, the influencers, the people who just keep this up online, the commentators, the fans of the topic are keeping it alive. You're outnumbered by folks who want to see who's going to win Johnny Depp or Amber Heard. And that, that for me, I think you made a point before about, you know, if we got that real smoking gun piece of evidence, whatever that may be, you know, perhaps if you want to get really speculative, this three eye Atlas story doesn't go away. And it keeps coming back and we keep hearing more that there's more than one object that's changing direction, it's getting bigger. These objects, multiple objects are now potentially on a course towards earth. Now, admittedly, a bit like yourself, Bryce, I've not done a lot of digging into this one because I'm seeing so many different reports and stories, but perhaps there's something to it. And maybe it would take something like that, a real interstellar visitor of non-human origin or not, to really capture the public's attention. Hoping we get more of a, more of a, well, God, what movie E.T. than perhaps deep impact scenario to use a movie analogy. Right. Well, more like an E.T. than an Independence Day is what you'd have to hope for. That's a really, well, a couple of things. First, I'm not going to comment on the Epstein files because I don't want to get hate mail from anybody about anything on that. But, you know, it, it, it, it does represent only in some ways the struggle to get things released. It, powerful interests sometimes want it released and sometimes they don't want it released. And that's been obviously the struggle with UFOs, you know, for, for quite some time. And, um, I almost, I lost my train of thought there. Well, there was a part two to that. You mentioned that. And then you, what were, what were we talking about right after Epstein? You said, um. I mentioned the, you know, the public perception. Yeah. Right. I mean, I have to say with some amusement is my old buddy, Ross Coltart fighting with Avi Loeb. Is that what's going on right now? I paid so little attention, but I haven't seen, I've just seen a couple of comments online, but I've genuinely not seen what it was. Um, but yeah, I know both these guys and I, you know, listen, if I had to put money on anybody, I'd put it on Coltart. Cause I believe Ross has probably done some good, um, uh, you know, asking around about it and, um, you know, uh, let's face it. The answer will be revealed one way or the other quickly. I mean, I don't know when this thing is due to be passing us, but apparently it's big and massive. So we'll see. What do you think? You think it's a real, I mean, what's your take? Well, just to comment on Avi and Ross, do you know, the problem? Is, um, everyone's thumbnails are incredibly sensational these days. I try to stay away from it, uh, to my own detriment. Um, but yeah, there's a lot of thumbnails. He's making a living out of it. Avi shouting at Ross. Um, yeah, Avi Loeb responds to Ross Coltart, rude claims, but yeah. So they seem to have a little spat or disagreement on something there in terms of the, the comet. It, it didn't go away and it hasn't gone away. And if there are multiple objects, then God, you could get really conspiratorial with it. And we, we did kind of roll our eyes at the idea that we were going to be, there was going to be a story come out that the U S government would lie to us that an alien invasion was on its way. The old project blue beam, you know, rumors come around that, are we going to have some new world order declared under the false pretense of an alien invasion? And then you see this and you go, now I would put my money on. No, that won't be happening. However, it is interesting timing. Um, I imagine as it gets closer and we can train more telescopes onto it, more sensors, more probes, then we'll find out it's just a comet with some interesting, um, features. However, to my point, maybe it just captures a public imagination again to get us thinking about space. I'm not old enough to remember the original moon landings, but I've seen enough movies, documentaries, and read enough about them to know it captured the imagination of the world. And it just seems like we're, we're probably really, do you know, the only thing it seems to really have a captured imagination of the world recently was Oasis getting back together and touring. Um, I was very fortunate to go and see them, but it kind of brought people back together. And it's almost like we need something like that to get folks back on the same page because it's not the nicest place to live at the minute, um, across the globe. You, I mean, you raise a good point. Uh, I mean that running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting before you know it, you're drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business. Whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. So you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. I guess the number one reason I don't quit ufology and go into hiding, I guess, is that, you know, I'm a father. I'm a grandfather now, right? I don't have as many years left on the earth as I used to. And I'd like to see this thing resolved, and I'd like to see, I see a world that appears to be more, you know, internally divided against itself, not to mention all the external divisions, than I'm used to. And I've seen a lot. Now, I just think that the revelation that we're not alone is, you know, people say, well, that won't change anything. Well, maybe. But if it's honestly revealed and it's uncontested, that might be the Hail Mary for humanity that we need. Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe that'll be the thing that makes us try to get on the same page with each other. And if that's the case, I hope so. I mean, imagine, imagine Avi's right, and some telescope next week gives us an image, and it's pretty darn clear it's not a meteor or a comet. Yeah. Well, that would be pretty shocking. And that would bring in a discussion. And I think about this all the time. One project I do, am working on that is fascinating from your point of view, I'm sure, is it's called Undeniable, and I'm doing it with Lionsgate. And the concept is that it's a TV newscast, and on the first day, there is a crash between a tic-tac, a mid-air collision between a tic-tac and a jet aircraft. And lives are lost. And the news is, you're only hearing what's coming from the news. And on day one, of course, they're covering a crash. But as each day goes on, during that first week, there are seven episodes. By the time you get to the seventh episode, everybody in the world knows we're not alone. And so it's tracking how people start to change and all that. And, you know, I don't know that I'm the only guy that has the right opinion about that. I'm certainly one guy with an opinion. But as I've been writing this thing, I'm done with the scripts now. But as I was writing it, I found myself thinking an awful lot, Andy, about just what's it going to take, you know, for two things. What's it going to take for people to finally wake up and go, yeah, look, I don't know what the phenomenon is, but it exists. And what's it going to take for people on this planet to say, it's a little late in the game. Maybe we should stop doing things the way we're doing them right now. And I keep thinking, and maybe I'm wrong, but I keep thinking the two are related. And if they're related, that might be our last best hope. I think that's a nice segue. And to finish off on some listener questions, Bryce, I got so many in for you, but I've picked a few here. This question came in, I interviewed, for a peek behind the curtains, folks, Dr. E. L. Whiteley this morning here in the UK. And I've got Bryce in the evening. So you're going to hear those interviews both in the same week. And Purple Burglar sent over a question for all three of us. So the question, Bryce, is if you had the chance to script humanity's first conversation with the intelligence behind UFOs, not for TV, but for real, what single question would you write for us to ask them and why? I'm curious if they think there's a God or anything like that, but that's not what I would ask them first. I think the main thing you'd have to ask them first is, why are you here? I mean, I don't, that's, because from that flows everything else. If you could get an honest answer from whatever the intelligence is about why they're here, it tells you a lot. What if the answer was, well, we've been here all along, well, that would be shocking. Or we're here to save you, that would be shocking. We're not here to, we're not going to tell you, that would be a shocking answer. I mean, I'd like to ask that. Why are you here? Which is, by the way, is sort of like saying, what do you want? Yeah, no, of course, I didn't answer this with you, I kept it for yourself. I would ask a little bit of a curveball question, just to be awkward. I would ask them, can you tell us about other species like yourselves? So I'm not asking them about them, but about other aliens, entities that they know that come here. And their answer might be, well, there aren't any, which is interesting. But they might also tell us, well, there's several here, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then I'm kind of negating the fact I've got this alien intelligence in front of me and I'm asking about their aliens. The only knock on what you just said is that's asking them to tell us about somebody else. The first thing as a journalist I'm going for is tell me about you, because at least they can comment about themselves. I mean, if you ask me about what I think of somebody else, I may not know them that well. Or I may only know their public persona, or I may have no knowledge whatsoever. But if you ask me about me, I'm an expert on me. That might be my social media brain fried, Bryce, that I'm already thinking of the next ones. Like, okay, the aliens are here. I'm bored with these ones already. Who have we got? I totally get you. That makes good sense to me. Yeah, the love and light beings from the Palladians or whatever people think they are. Little Glowing Orb says, Bryce is very well read and must be able to speculate from a fairly well informed position. Have you read either of the books Fast Walker, a work of fiction by Jacques Vallée, and evolutionary metaphors by David Moore? Do you believe the abduction phenomenon may be a human psychological program against the world population? Yeah, but I'll leave that one there, that question. I've got to break that down. The second book I have not read. The first book, Fast Walker, I do have. I read it, gosh, like 15 years ago maybe. So I've forgotten most of what I read about it. I do know Jacques Vallée, and I know Tracy Torme, who's passed on recently, who co-authored it with Jacques. I thought it was interesting. I mean, again, it's like trying to tell the truth under the cover of fiction, which I don't think Jacques needs to do. He's been a pretty prolific writer. The question, though, about, I guess, abductions, is that sort of just… Yeah, do you believe the abduction phenomenon is a human psychological program? Oh, right. Well, you know, listen, I'm a big – I've been big on the Betty and Barney case. I've written scenes about it in Dark Skies. I've developed a movie and a TV series about it, which, you know, I've competed with the big boys to see if I can get set up. I haven't succeeded so far. But I will tell you – and actually, I believe Betty and Barney were abducted. However, in my research on it, I came across the fact that they were coming from their honeymoon in Montreal, and I came across the fact that Montreal was the headquarters of MKUltra at that time, that they were keeping MKUltra up there in Canada because they wanted plausible deniability of it being, you know, here in the U.S. And, you know, let's face it. If you were doing some kind of experiment on human beings to see if you could implant memories or whatever, yeah, Betty and Barney might be a good choice. So I'm just saying my mind is kind of open, and I think it might be all of the above. I think it might very well be that there have been and there are abductions. I don't think there seem to be as many as there used to be, but I could be wrong. But there have been some, for sure, that are the real deal. But it seems like with everything in this discussion of the phenomenon, that there are other agencies or types that have other agendas and sort of piggyback on top of things. So even if the abduction phenomenon is a real one, it doesn't mean that other parties aren't trying to distort it for their own purposes. The Truth Is Up There has two questions. The first one is very kindly plugging my own book, and I'll just check, Bryce, did you get the copy of the book that's been sent to you from my publisher yet? And it's very funny you bring that up. My son called me the other day, and he goes, because I gave you his address because it's just easier for delivery. And he said, why are you having books sent to my house? And I went, well, I just thought it was easier, and I didn't really have a good answer. And his attitude was, well, I don't want UFO people calling me. So we go back to where we started at the beginning. But the answer to your question is, my son has it in his possession. He is coming to my house this afternoon, and I will have it in my possession today. And I can't wait to read it. No, thank you. And the book is available, folks, if you want to check that out on Amazon and whatnot, Atlas of UFOs. And secondly, Bryce has a very impressive library of books on UFOs and UAP. Does he have a favorite, specifically one he thinks anyone interested in this subject needs to know, and he's not allowed to nominate after disclosure? I wouldn't nominate it. I do think about that, and I talk about it. And I'll tell you something. I have two. I'm going to get them right now. The first one that I've been showing around to friends is this one, Lou Elizondo's Eminent. I bought several copies of it because what I've been doing is I've got a lot of friends who hear something on the news, and they go, well, I know you have a podcast about it. What do you know about this? Well, that's kind of a big question when they've really got five minutes to discuss it, right? I can't explain the UFO issue to even my best friend in five minutes. That's not going to happen. So instead, I've come up with sort of a lend library, and I go, hey, man, here's a copy of a book. I'm not giving it to you. I'm loaning it to you. When you're done, please sign it and give it back to me. And they've been doing that. But for my friends who say, I don't really know anything about it, do you have a book I should read? I mean, this is the one for me. It's the Richard Dolan book, UFOs for the 21st Century Mind, the new edition of it. Neither of these books are perfect because you've got your own opinion of what should be the basic briefing on UFOs, and so do I. But I don't know. I think Dolan has done a really good historical walkthrough things. He raises all the issues. And I would sort of recommend it to people. If you have friends that need to know more, I'd sort of give them that. And then once they kind of tipped to the topic and said, I like that, I learned a lot, they will have questions. They'll say, but I was really curious about, and then they're going to give you the thing that really turned them on. And that's when you say, oh, I have a good book for that too. But you've got to start with something. The problem is, you know, there's a lot of people in the world right now. You know them. I know them. They're often our friends. And they think the whole UFO thing started in 2004 was something that happened on the Nimitz. And they don't know that this has been going on for at least eight decades and maybe thousands of years, right? So they need a little help. So that's my recommendation. Final question, Bryce, to finish off. The human neutrino says, given Bryce's long interest in the subject, what is his big picture hypothesis of what the phenomenon is? Yeah, well, first of all, that's what I hope to have in this conversation I'm beginning with Richard Dolan on Need to Know, that that is the answer that I want to chase. Now, I can't tell the person who asked this question or you or anyone else that I have the answer. Yeah, I've read a couple hundred books. I've talked to a couple hundred people like yourself and everybody from Whitley Strieber to Jacques Vallée to Stan Friedman. I've had some great insight. And, you know, the one thing I can tell you is nobody seems to 100% know themselves. I mean, if you talk to any of these people. So all I can do is guess. And I know that there are people that say we're in a simulation. There are people that say it's interdimensional. I said it was time travelers in a movie I wrote for the sci-fi channel called Official Denial. But if I had to guess right now, I think it's extraterrestrial still. But I don't know that for a fact. And there's no reason to believe it's only that. It may be sort of some version of all of the above. And I think that that is what frustrates me most to sort of tie in our conversation at this point. What frustrates me most is that we spend our hearings and things like that sort of chasing the idea that, well, are they real or aren't they real? And when Dolan and I wrote A.D. After Disclosure 12 years ago, or however many years it was, we said we're not going to write that book. We're going to accept that they're real and talk about what next. And that's where I'm coming from these days. That's why I'm less slavish to, you know, who's the whistleblower of the day and what are they actually going to say? And can we prove this or that about them? And because while all of those are good questions, I'm not set up to do the investigation myself. And even if I did, it wouldn't cause the world to go, oh, well, the problem is settled. And what I'm not hearing enough of is people of good mind and good intent sort of kicking it around and saying, what is it going to mean for us? How is it going to change the world? How is it going to change my life? And I am convinced, even though I'm an old man right now, by many standards, I'm still convinced that in my lifetime, we are going to come to the realization that we're not alone. And the question at that point is going to be, well, if we're not alone, then what is exactly going on? And I don't know in my lifetime if we're going to get past that one. I just think in my lifetime, we're going to get to the we're not alone. And maybe in my kid, I just like I had a grandson born a couple of months ago. Yeah, congratulations. Maybe in his lifetime, maybe in his lifetime, he is going to have, you know, when he's my age, that grandbaby, he may very well have a very clear understanding of what's going on. And if he does figure it out and there is an afterlife, I'm hoping he's going to tell me. That's a nice place to end up, Bryce. And could you just let folks know how they can follow you, how they can find any of your work that you want to chat about? Absolutely. The main place where need to know is need to know dot today, not dot com, but dot today. But then the other thing is I have a pretty active web page, excuse me, YouTube page. And there's a lot of videos on that. All of the Coltart videos, the Dolan videos. I have another thing, Project Book Club I do with Chrissy Newton. All of those videos are on my YouTube page. So if you just search my name on YouTube, you'll find it. And that's sort of where I do the conversation. And then, like a lot of people, I have an ex presence and I'm not hard to find. But the one that people like the most is at Hollywood UFOs. I'll put all those links in the description as well. And as always, Bryce, good luck with the upcoming projects and wonderful speaking. Thank you so much, my friend. It's been a pleasure doing it. And I know it's later there than it is here. So you should go to bed. That is all for this episode. Thank you very much for tuning in. Don't forget to leave the podcast a review on your chosen platform. Apple and Spotify do make a huge difference to the algorithm. If you're checking the show on YouTube, please don't forget to like and leave a comment on here as well. Any sharing you do is very much appreciated on any social media platform. And finally, you can listen to shows ad-free and sponsor-free in their glorious full versions by subscribing for less than the price of a coffee on Apple, Spotify. Just search That UFO Podcast Premium. YouTube, you can sign up and be a member. Or you can do that through Patreon.com. Thank you very much for listening, folks. Running a business is hard enough. 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