Chris Knowles | XF-ULTRA, Conspiracy Culture, & Anne Heche

The planet's puppet master's almost surely. There's clearly me. Find the more. Just don't know to what degree. I'm company. Serenity now, higher side chatters. From the Sunshine State, I'm Greg Carlwood. And while I'm not sure I agree with those who say we all died in 2012, I will say it wouldn't have been a bad place to pause the timeline. Even better would have been somewhere in the late 90s, just before the technocracy got to work on infecting our every waking moment with manipulative devices that project a never-ending scroll of attention-grabbing nonsense, overhyped headlines, anger-inducing algorithms, and a firehose of infinite, uneducated opinions we didn't realize we were so lucky to live without. It felt like there was just a bit more cultural glue holding us together back then. And from its first episode on September 10th, 1993, The X-Files' 13-year run was a big part of what made that decade so interesting. It wasn't the only show, or even the first, to fold in nearly every theme of the conspiratorial counterculture, but few weaved a tapestry so rich that apparently even the CIA started to wonder where some of these ideas were coming from. Secret cabals, covert alien invasions, hybrids, implants, mind control, brain-scrambled assassins, lab-engineered viruses, black goo, secret cosmic wars, super soldiers, and a cornucopia of conspiratorial goodness right smack in the middle of prime time. Not so subtly, reminding viewers to question everything and not to trust what you're told on the surface. Something they don't really let happen these days. Well, our good pal Chris Knowles of Secret Son fame not only co-wrote the complete X-Files behind the series The Myths in the Movies back in 2008, but he's hot off the presses with a new deep dive into the show titled XF Ultra, The X-Files, Conspiracy Culture, and the National Security State, which explores its cultural impact and the stranger-than-fiction real-world stories that the show sometimes pulled from or even inspired. So let's go. The X-Files obsessed, deep-diving synchromystic decoder and cultural scryer extraordinaire. Chris, welcome back. Oh, it's so great to be back. So great. Always great to be on THC. In more ways than one. Yes, indeed. And congrats on getting a new book out there, so dense with details and an entire episode-by-episode exploration of such an iconic show covering all our favorite conspiratorial subject matter. You co-wrote The Complete Guide eight years ago, and it certainly seems like this is a more raw, unsanctioned exploration that Disney or Fox wouldn't actually probably endorse. But I did hope we can mainly explore some of the real-world stuff that often was inspiration for the show. But let me just say, getting ready for this thing, I looked up when The X-Files pilot aired, and it was September 10th, 1996, exactly 32 years to the day of the Charlie Kirk shooting, an event peppered with Freemasonic symbolism, and that, right out of the gate, is just a very odd sync that I'm still thinking about. I haven't revisited the themes of the pilot to see if there's even more alignment, but just that alone is very weird. It really is. I can't think of any parallels in the pilot itself. I mean, there are other episodes that you could probably look to. But the pilot itself is basically straight up. The whole dialogue is about aliens, but you don't see any aliens, really. I think it's, as I lay out in the book, I think that people are watching the series wrong. And one of the reasons I wrote this book is to get people to watch the series correctly. Okay. I mean, there's so much going on. There's so many layers. There's so much going on beneath the surface. There are so many, you know, you talked about all those themes and such that we saw pre-saged in The X-Files, but there's a lot more than that. It's an incredible rabbit hole. And I really wanted people to, you know, particularly people who want to get into it. You know, that's kind of what I was aiming towards, which is why I have that very detailed episode guide. But I want people, you know, to understand what they're looking at. You know, a lot of things we see on television when it's just like, oh, you know, whatever. And it just sort of, everything just sort of goes through, you know, we're so bombarded with information all day. I think a lot of people throughout the years since day one have kind of overlooked what is going on. Now, the interesting thing about Charlie Kirk's assassination is that I was actually going to publish on that day. I was having terrible troubles with a Kindle app, which is just the most ridiculous app in the world. So I wanted, my original release date was that day. And, you know, it's good to get it put on that day because it just would have been totally overshadowed. And to be honest with you, I was really kind of waiting to publish until all that sort of died down in the news. We were going to talk about one other thing related to the Charlie Kirk assassination. As you said that, you know, if we were going to touch on that, because it is such a huge cultural event. It has nothing to do with the book except for this weird date sync. But you said we could draw parallels with Kyle Odom and Kirk's assassination. I had to remind myself of that situation. But via Wikipedia for context, it says on March 6th, 2016, Kyle Odom, an individual fixated with alien conspiracy theories, shot Pastor Tim Remington six times in the back and once in the head at altar church, believing that Remington was hiding shape-shifting extraterrestrials within his congregation. Odom approached Remington in the parking lot of altar church and fired at him six times with a .45 caliber pistol in an apparent attempt on his life. Despite plans to kill Outreach Pastor John Padula, Odom left the scene without any further incident. Remington survived and underwent several hours of surgery. Odom mailed a manifesto to his family and media outlets expressing his intent to murder Remington and his belief that he was part of an alien conspiracy to enslave humanity. Police found his vehicle at the scene of the crime. After successfully evading police, Odom boarded a flight to Washington, D.C. and approached the White House, at which point he began tossing items over the fence, including flash drives and a 25-page manifesto addressed to the then-United States President Barack Obama. Odom was apprehended by United States Secret Service members at 8.27 p.m., though the arrest was related to his activity at the White House and not on the attempt of Remington's life. In July 2017, Odom pleaded guilty to aggravated battery with a felony firearm and was sentenced to 25 years in prison. Ten of those years are fixed, and after he will be eligible for parole. So, very interesting story. It does sound like the plot of an X-Files episode, but how is there any parallels, really, to the Charlie Kirk situation? Well, I think the obvious one is like an attempt of assassination of a religious leader. Fair. But there's also a political connection there, because Ted Cruz had spoken at Alter Church the day before. So, there's that connection, you know, Republican Party, religious right, Christianity, so many different layers that I was really thinking about. And also the fact that he had like this just very strange motivation, you know. He had this worldview where shape-shifting Martians that were sexually obsessed were, you know, taking over people's bodies, possessing people. And I guess they were like the ghosts of Martians or something. And it's interesting, because he drew a cartoon of one of the Martians in one of his manifestos, and it looked eerily like Keck or Pepe the Frog, you know what I'm saying? And you might want to pull that up for your visuals, right? Taking a note right now. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And a lot of people on 4chan sort of pointed that out as well. That happened shortly after the season finale of season 10 of the X-Files, which was the so-called event season. And that episode was the one that a lot of people have been looking at as sort of a prediction of COVID, because it's all about this pandemic, this Spartan virus that's going to, you know, kill off everybody. But there's all this stuff. I mean, Chris Crotty has taken terrible, terrible abuse from the media, because he's talking about like chemtrails being used to distribute an airborne virus, and electricity, and all these kind of things. And then also people like drawing sigils in certain areas that have already been infected. I mean, there's this whole thing, this character that is partly very much based on Alex Jones. I think he's also partly based on Richard Dolan, because a lot of his presentation was paraphrasing Richard Dolan's speech at the Secret Space, I guess, conference, whatever, in 2015, the one that Dark Journalist had hosted. The one in San Mateo? Just let me throw this out there. I was there, and that is when I met Tom DeLonge in the parking lot, and I was so not expecting to meet Tom DeLonge, I was like, hey, you're one of the Blink-182 guys. And I think I used a different name, and he was like, no, I'm the other one. I was like, oh, all right, well, interesting that you're here. You thought he was Mark Hoppus? Yeah, and that was way before. I just couldn't remember the names. I hadn't thought about Blink in a long time. And that was before To The Stars or anything like that was happening. Just a weird little personal sync with what did become a big part of the disclosure movement that came from that same conference? I guess you didn't see it. Well, maybe you wouldn't recognize him. He was there as a guest of Catherine Austin Fitz. She had invited Chris Carter to come, because he was working at the time on this miniseries about Area 51 that I don't think was ever produced, ever got on the air. It was for sci-fi, I think. But he used a lot of the information that he had heard at the Secret Space conference, whatever it was called. A lot of that information was folded into those two revival seasons. You know, stuff with like Secret Space program and off-worlding and all these kind of things. So it's very much taken directly from that. But anyway, the point being is that this Kyle Odom thing happened like, I think like a week afterwards. But that thing where, you know, that plot line where he... Plot line, right? We can't even tell the difference anymore, right? Where he hops the White House fence and he's thrown his manifesto. But that's directly... I mean, that's directly from an episode of The X-Files called Three Words, where this guy who's part of the sort of abductee cult hops the White House fence with his manifesto to warn the president that people are being taken over by aliens. So it's... There are several... There are actually several different X-Files plot lines. And I spell them out in the book that like, was Kyle Odom just like a really hardcore X-Files fan? And that kind of inspired this whole thing. You know, I mean, obviously the thing with aliens possessing human bodies and so on. That's like the whole thing with the black oil and the super soldiers and everything. So that was a really interesting timing. I was really fixated on that story when that happened. But the fact that it's this kind of weird loner, the connections to religion and politics, it all did strike me as being not directly connected, but certainly thematically similar to the Charlie Kirk thing. I'm just glad you reminded me of it because it is such a wild story. Then, you know, we have so many random brain scrambled nuts out there with weapons that it's sometimes hard to remember who did what. But, you know, you throw in the alien stuff and the manifesto and you're really cooking here. Well, the thing is, is what Kyle Odom said that I think is kind of a good point is that, you know, he shot this guy six times, squaring the body mass with a .45. That's a lot of punishment for a human body to take. Odom had said, see, that proves that he's an alien. You know, how could he have survived that? But that's another plot line in The X-Files is that aliens can't be killed through just, you know, aliens in human form can't be killed through simple gunshots. You either have to hit like a particular area of their body or use some sort of special weapon. So that was really freaky. And that was not the only time that people sort of manifested themselves from X-Files stories onto quote unquote real world because we had Max Spears coughing up the black oil before he died. Gary McKinnon, whose whole story, you know, the UFO hacker who broke into the Pentagon and found out all these files of off-world projects and off-world missions. And that's straight from The X-Files too. That's straight from the episode Anasazi. It seems that like reality such as it is sort of flits in and out. But that's what happens. You know, this is the thing I've been telling you and I've been telling people for a long time is that when you start playing with all these kind of themes and all these symbols and stuff, like things happen, you know, things happen that break that veil between our reality and fictional reality or, you know, internal reality, that veil gets pierced and things, strange things start to happen. Yes. And the Max Spears thing, for people who don't remember him, he was a UFO investigator. I had to be reminded by, you know, reading the book, but he spit up some black goo material and then he texted his mom, if something happens to me, investigate. And that's all I really know. Well, he's somebody I'd follow. That was like the old days, like the Project Camelot days. The glory days. Yeah, it kind of was the glory days. You know, this is when everybody had like embedded video before everybody was just going to YouTube and so on. That whole UFO counterculture that I would argue that Tom DeLonge killed, you know, because that whole culture was really heating up, particularly in 2016. And then, you know, the following year, he and Podesta come out with this whole to the stars and AATIP and all this kind of, I mean, you know my opinion on that kind of stuff. But that to me, I think that killed the UFO conspiracy counterculture. And I don't think it ever recovered from that because that's the ultimate buzzkill, right? The government admits it, but it's a really lame admittance, you know, their admission, right? Exactly. I mean, I tried to drill that into Stephen Bassett's head and it just wasn't working all that well. But you mentioned that people are maybe watching the X-Files wrong and you want them to watch it right. What is right to you? What are they missing when they remember X-Files or revisit X-Files that you just wish that they would get? Well, there are a lot of things, but, you know, one of the things that I wrote about in my Ultimate Fan Theory is how often stories about aliens and ancient astronauts and all the rest of it are twinned with episodes about mushrooms, LSD, hallucinogenic drugs. Hallucinogenic drugs, particularly mushrooms, are a constant through line throughout the entire series. You know, this is my theory, right? And I'm sure the people writing these stories would either disagree and not admit that they agree, right? But if you really start to look at things like particularly like the black oil, I mean, the black oil is basically a hallucinogenic drug that takes people over, you know, possesses them and turns them into basically alien demons. But you see that throughout the entire series and the thing that really blew my mind and I kind of felt like Chris Carter wrote this episode to me, in season 10, there was this episode called Babylon and it was all about like taking mushrooms to go, you know, the descent to the underworld, like straight out of the mystery religions and they had smoking man playing Chiron. And I mean, the whole thing was just everything that I've been talking about as far as like the connection between aliens and hallucinogenic drugs and all the rest of it that I had picked up on throughout the entire season. I think most fans didn't because I don't think they had it. Most fans had experience with hallucinogens. They wouldn't know what to look for. But I mean, one of the, here's my favorite example though that I think is almost like the argument ended. There was an episode they did called Field Trip, right? Already from the title, you get the inference there. But it's about, you know, the Brown Mountain lights in North Carolina. So they go to investigate, but they don't realize that there's this giant man-eating hallucinogenic mushroom colony underground that like drugs people, lures them in and then consumes them, like digests them as they're having these trips. The episode right after that was about these quote-unquote alien tablets that a Dr. Sandoz had discovered. You know, Sandoz being the pharmaceutical company in Switzerland that had basically invented LSD in the first place. You know what I mean? So they, this is what I'm talking about, the twinning. They have this whole episode where basically Mulder and Scullery are having this 45 minute long mushroom trip, you know, that, that we see that, you know, the aliens are coming and, and Mulder captures an alien and all these kinds of things. And the next episode, like Mulder is affected by these quote-unquote tablets that a Dr. Sandoz, you know, was in possession of. So it's just like, come on. You know what I mean? It's like, when you do that back to back and it's like, that's like really obvious, but you'll see this throughout. Now, Chris Carter was like a surfer in the seventies in California. I mean, that dude probably dropped a lot of acid. You know what I'm saying? And, and here's an interesting thing as well is that in, I think it was in between the first and second seasons. No, I'm sorry. The second and third season, he had gone to Sedona at the invitation of some Navajo and took place, took part in a peyote ritual. You know, and he was very upfront about it. He didn't try to, you know, disguise it. And then that was written into the, the third season opener, this whole thing. They didn't have the mushrooms or the peyote, the peyote buttons explicitly in that episode, but it's, that's clearly what it's riffing on. That's the first thing you really have to notice is that first of all, it's never really clear if there actually are aliens. You know what I mean? If we see aliens from time to time, but not as much as you might think, but we're never really sure if, you know, this is the unreliable narrator. What we do see explicitly is mushrooms, LSD, peyote, you know, I mean, all this kind of stuff. So I said in the book, and I've always said that I think this series is about hallucinogens just as much as that it's about conspiracies or aliens. Yeah, it's interesting to make that connection because obviously disclosure and this traditional ETH narrative is so aggressive within the community, like forced on it. But yet, you know, we see these other layers, like maybe they aren't from space. Maybe they're just from a different dimension. Maybe that's the same. The psychedelics are the same type of trigger to facilitate an experience. And then, yeah, a lot of people, when they think back to the X-Files, they just think of it as a UFO, traditional alien show. And you're saying, no, actually, a lot of this stuff is peppered in there. And a thing to me that is interesting, having grown up in the 90s, having seen this in the zeitgeist, even though I was young and watched it later when it was maybe a little past its prime, it just is so interesting to me that a show like this would be the primetime thing, the water cooler talk the next day. I am nostalgic for the glue of those kind of cultural shows where now it's like you have to ask someone, are you watching this or this or this? Because who knows what people are watching? There's nothing connecting us, not since maybe Game of Thrones. So I like that idea. And then also just the trust level of people. I don't know if they put a show like this on the air because the internet was so new that you couldn't look this stuff up and then make these connections. But if a show like this was on the air today, I don't know if we would be sucked into that government trust that everybody has that really made COVID possible. It seems like the people in the 90s were way more willing to be like, yeah, the government probably is involved in some shit like this. Well, you got to realize that this is falling on Iran-Contra, all these things like Ruby Ridge and Waco. Waco was about six months before the X-Files premiered. There was a lot, there was the rise of the militia movement, George Bush's speech about the New World Order, you know, the Gulf War, Gulf War sickness, which the X-Files referenced several times, you know, talked about Gulf War illness. So I think that there was, it was in the air. And there were also like UFOs and abduction and all these kinds of things were very much, very, very much in the culture, particularly following Whitley Strieber's communion. I mean, people don't remember that that was a bestseller. I was working in New York when that book came out and you could not pass Barnes & Noble or B. Dalton or Walden books or, you know, all these chains that most of them don't exist anymore, but you couldn't pass a bookstore without seeing a big display with like several copies of Communion in the window. That book was huge. He did all the sequels and then there are all these people who sort of try to steal his thunder. But this was also following on the whole thing with, with Bob Lazar and Area 51. Again, tons of references to Area 51 and all the rest of it, reverse engineering from the very earliest episodes in the X-Files. So they're really picking up on the zeitgeist. So there was this kind of, I don't want to say skepticism or distrust or whatever, but there was definitely a lot of this kind of stuff in the air, conspiracies. And this is a couple of years after Behold a Paled Horse was released. You had books like Holy Blood, Holy Grail. There was so much of this kind of stuff in the mainstream. And this is hot on the heels of Graham Hancock and Fingerprints of the Gods. So all this stuff with alternative history, alternative archaeology, but also the ancient astronaut stuff became really big again when like all of a sudden Sitchin, Zechariah Sitchin's in everywhere you look. And there was also a show that was on just before the X-Files premiered. It was a show called Sightings. It was sort of like a paranormal news show. And it was hosted by a guy named Timothy White, who was a retired Air Force general. There's a lot of this stuff in the air. There were UFO conventions. I mean, UFO conventions were a big thing in the 90s. And actually that guy, George Knapp, actually did a documentary on how big UFO conventions were. I mean, there was like one somewhere in the United States every weekend back then. So this was all very much in the air. Yeah. And you mentioned Gary McKinnon and that plot line for an episode, Anasazi, season two, episode 25. I actually had notes about this episode of all the ones, but the plot line is a hacker breaks into Pentagon files, revealing the truth about UFOs. The files are encrypted in Navajo, leading Mulder and Scully to New Mexico. And that is a tie-in with the Chris Carter Navajo peyote ritual. But while we're talking about UFOlogy a little bit, yeah, obviously there was a lot happening at the time. But one thing that I keep coming back to, another, really, the reason I had Stephen Bassett on is this photograph. It's also mentioned in the book, at least the conferences, but this photograph of the Lawrence Rockefeller retreat that has all the big names in UFOlogy there. Linda Moulton Howell, Stephen Greer, even Bob Bigelow, like, I don't know. I just think multi-billionaires and a hundred millionaires got better things to do than hang out with Stephen Greer. When I keep bringing this photo up, I've shown it to, you know, Richard Dolan and Stephen Bassett, and neither one of them has the same visceral kind of skepticism about what this is as I do. And when you put it in the context of the X-Files, this was September 14th and 15th of 1993, the very weekend after they launched the X-Files pilot on primetime TV. The damn show comes out September 10th, and then the following weekend, Linda Moulton Howell, Stephen Greer, Bob Bigelow, about a dozen other people are meeting at Lawrence Rockefeller's ranch. I don't know. I mean, what do you think that this, what does this mean to you? Is this the seeding of the op? Is this the meetings of the minds to structure how they're going to control and frame high strangeness for the next decade and a half? That could be part of it, but remember who Lawrence Rockefeller was. I mean, Lawrence Rockefeller gave the seed money for Esalen. He gave the seed money for the Noetic Sciences Institute. He gave the seed money for the California Institute of Integral Studies. He was basically building sort of a New Age empire at that time. He was funding a lot of ufology. He was funding people like Roger Lear, I believe. A lot of big name ufologists were actually getting on his payroll, and that's something that people don't remember. This is something that we discussed when we talked about He Will Love Up in the Sky. I think one big mistake that a lot of call, and maybe I shouldn't use the term, but sort of amateur conspiracists make is that they make the mistake that these people involved in this stuff can't be true believers. They can't actually believe in this stuff. That is mistake number one. You have to realize that people who get into this stuff believe it, and I think Lawrence Rockefeller was involved in this because he was trying to build, it was part of his New Age religion empire. I think that's more like it, but I think he was a big believer in it. There's that famous photo where he's walking with Hillary Clinton and she's carrying some sort of UFO book that he gave her. I think he was genuinely into it, to be honest with you, and I think that Greer has talked about this. Greer talked about how Rockefeller was a true believer in this phenomenon. Yeah, I don't doubt that. I'm only saying, and I think it's a current that goes through all of our interviews, they definitely believe something, but it's not always presented to us in the same context of what they actually believe. So basics of it, the 101 is that I think they're trying to promote occultism, which you can't just come right out and promote, but you can do a bunch of university studies on psychedelics, you can seed the culture with UFOs and space aliens because it just doesn't have the same religious residue, even though it really probably is a more religious type of thing. I don't know if we talked about this, but the ufology has always been a top-down phenomenon. Ufology as we know it was basically the creation of a bunch of Navy admirals back in the late 40s. Yeah, one with your name. Yes, yes, yes. So, but if you also look at NICAP, which was like the big UFO investigation project for a number of years, the board of directors were all retired military, mostly from the Navy or the Marines. This is something that was kind of an aha moment. And I have their article somewhere, but somebody's in some, it was in some left-wing magazine, it might have been Mother Jones or the Nation or something, who was writing about how the whole UFO thing was really the creation of these admirals. And they've been sustaining it. And if you look at what's going on today with this whole disclosure movement, I mean, look at people like Grush and Fravor and Elizondo and Semivan and Mellon. I mean, these are all very high-placed people in the military industrial complex establishment, all of them. And that is kind of why I don't really pay too much attention to it because, you know, what is their agenda? So I think there's always been an agenda and there's still, there remains an agenda to create a UFO religion. I think that absolutely is probably what Rockefeller wanted to really do. I don't think he was running an op. I think he was trying to start a religion, to be honest with you. Fair. So let me read to you a random post I found on Reddit from a guy who goes by Jesse James. He says, X-Files is a favorite show of mine of all time. I think someone high up allowed the X-Files to be released. If you look at the evidence in the way the average person thought about UFOs slash government conspiracy when the show aired as compared to now, it's 180 degrees different. Who was talking about Project Paperclip in 1995? Let's go one step further. Who was talking about Unit 731 and the Japanese Biological Weapons Project in 1995? Nobody. There's a guy named Chris Knowles who wrote a book on the show years ago. He was buddies with Frank Spotsnitz and had a behind-the-curtain look at the show and someone definitely wanted the show to stay on the air. The ratings were pretty bad the first two seasons but the show was never canceled. There's way too much I could write here but I'll point you towards Bruce Rux's Hollywood versus the aliens. It's all about slowly bringing the public along and not scaring the hell out of them along the way. We've come a long way from little green men and flying saucers. So I like that. It's nice to see you penetrating the zeitgeist like that to see a Chris Knowles reference in the wild unexpectedly. But would you agree with that comment? Did the show seem to be engineered to reveal with help staying on the air despite low ratings early on? You have to remember at that time Fox was still a fairly new network. They didn't really have a lot to put on the air. They weren't even airing a full week of programming at that time. The X-Files was just basically like a sacrificial lamb at the time because they thought the big show was going to be the show called The Adventures of Briscoe County Jr. starring Bruce Campbell. Yeah. So the whole idea was like that was going to be the draw. That was going to be the big hit. That was going to be the show that brought people in. The X-Files was just basically going to be there to set it up. You know, it's like sort of like the support band at a concert. Like they were just basically going to be the opening act for this Briscoe County. Now Briscoe County just died on the vine. I think what really saved the X-Files was they realized because of the rise of the internet, it was all still dial-up back then, but they realized that the show was appealing to what they call the demographic and the demographic being like 18 to 49 people with a lot of disposable income. At least they did back then. But as far as UFOs go, I mean, most of the episodes in the entire series, but particularly in those first seasons were not about UFOs. I think they might have been like six out of 25 episodes in the first season were about UFOs. It was more like horror and sci-fi because the monster, what they call the monsters of the week, were much more the meat and potatoes of the show. You know, because Chris Carter was really inspired by Kolchak the Night Stalker, which was way before your time. It was a show that I watched when I was very, very young when I could get away with it because my parents didn't let me watch it. But I don't know particularly if it would have been part of Agenda because also it was depicting aliens as being rather sinister and hostile. I mean, it wasn't part of this agenda that you saw in films like E.T., Close Encounters, Taken, a lot of movies. There was a lot of other movies in the 80s that, you know, aliens were our friends and they were just basically these cute little visitors and so on. I mean, there's a lot of pedo nonsense under current flowing through all those kind of stories. But from the very, very start, from the pilot episode, aliens are bad. The people who corroborate or collaborate with the aliens are bad. They're evil. They're demons. They're here to harm us. They're doing experiments on us. I mean, this is not the kind of message that somebody like Lawrence Rockefeller would necessarily want to let slip. And one thing that I would also remind you, in the midst of all this UFO hysteria or whatever you want to call it in the 90s, you started people like Bill Cooper started to come around. He, you know, he had been putting out the most ridiculous UFO nonsense out there, but he started to wake up. Carla Turner, who had written a couple of books on UFO abduction, was starting to think that we're really looking at my labs. Jim Keith did so as well in Saucers of the Illuminati. And what do those three people have in common, Greg? They're, no, what? They're all dead. Well, I was going to say that, but I wasn't sure about, I wasn't sure about the, I know Jim Keith obviously and Bill Cooper. In the expanded hardcover, I basically list a lot of these people who were involved in ufology who came to unnatural early ends, which is also very curious to me. And this is something that I've paid attention to for a long time. And, you know, we talked about Max Spears, right? It's a very complicated issue and I think it tends to get simplified by people who maybe have some other agenda. But, again, when you look at those stories, it's very, it's very difficult to argue that the X-Files was part of some agenda to acclimate people to aliens and alien religion. You know, some sort of childhood's end scenario where the aliens are our friends, but we have to, you know, they look like devils, so we have to wait 50 years until they reveal themselves. I read that recently. It holds up and it's basically a recommendation of yours. Well, yeah, obviously the tone is different and the orientation, you know, the good-bad orientation of the beings in the show is different, but if you're trying to say that they're trying to take high strangeness things in general which are more of a multidimensional phenomenon and cast it out into space in people's minds, I guess it could kind of fit, but I hear what you're saying. So, we have talked about Stranger Things before and how that first season reveals so much about MKUltra. You could say that, like, they're giving you what really was going on with MKUltra and MKOften and then they're saying, but it wasn't so bad for her because she got superpowers and now she's great. When, really, it is, it's torture of a child. We talked about how it seems like the Duffer brothers likely had some assistance in writing out those details because it maybe was a limited hangout or for some reason somebody wanted to popularize the MKUltra program. Do you see anything like that happening? I mean, because as you say, the show is about much more than just aliens. There's the syndicate, there's the bio labs. Was there someone connected kind of helping with the show? Because you do have some quotes where, I guess, in one of the DVD commentaries, someone says that FBI agents had told them that it wasn't all that far off. Things on the show aren't all that far off from the truth and that CIA agents would go to parties in Hollywood and give Chris Carter ideas. So, I mean, we're talking about exactly what I'm saying. Well, my theory on Stranger Things is that I don't think it's the same thing with the X-Files. People had very low expectations and this whole idea that, you know, the Illuminati are micromanaging everything that goes on the air just doesn't really hold water. I think that Stranger Things was sort of a dark horse, right? They weren't expecting it and I don't think when you watch the advertisements or the, you know, the previews or whatever before it came on, all the NK Ultra stuff wasn't really referenced. It was more about like the sort of Spielbergian 80s fantasy movie with kids and so on. I think what happened with Stranger Things is that after that first season aired some people approached those guys and said, all right, listen, this isn't going to fly. We're not, we're not doing this anymore. You know what I mean? It's like, you're not, no, this is a little too much and that's why the very next season like all of a sudden, you know, you had the Paul Reiser character who's like the nice NK Ultra guy. They spun it off in a weird direction from where it started. It's amazing to me when I rewatched the first season, which I do periodic basis, let's just say, how different it is and how much heavier it is and how more similar it is to a lot of early 80s, you know, movies from 1983 that seem to be telling tales out of school. You know, I'm thinking of Wavelength and Brainstorm and maybe even War Games. I mean, there were a number of movies that took a very jaundice look at the military establishment, military intelligence, military industrial, all these different various power structures that you didn't see by the end of the 80s. It was something, it wasn't cool and it might have almost been like a leftover from the 70s because you saw a lot of films in the 70s that were very conspiratorial, that were very skeptical of state power and so on and that kind of just evaporates by the end of the 70s. I'm sorry, the end of the 80s. By and large, The X-Files is really a show about monsters and the paranormal. People think of it as a UFO show but as I said, the UFO episodes are very much the minority in every single season. Every single season. I guess you could maybe argue in season 10, that six, that little mini series, that you have three of the episodes that are oriented towards UFOs and stuff so maybe that's a little different but the full seasons and a lot of fans don't like those what they call the mythology and they find those stories too hard to follow and I was the same way. I was the same way back when the show was on the air when I called them conspiracy episodes I'd be just like, oh, let me get out my charts and graphs and my flow chart and see who's this guy, what's going on here. It just got to be like homework. It just was too much to follow and it wasn't until I started watching those episodes in order without all the stories about werewolves and vampires and all the rest of it that I was like, oh my God, this is incredible. It's this incredible novel that just spreads out over the seasons. There are two things that I want to address here. You can watch that show, the entire series, and think, there are no actual aliens because there are all these references throughout the show that this is all being staged, this is all a hoax, this is all some sort of PSYOP, and that the aliens, when we see them, it's like we get these little fleeting glimpses. So are they seeing something because they expect to be seeing something? We do see UFOs, but we know from the very first actual episode past the pilot that the government is making UFOs, you know what I'm saying? at an Air Force base based on Area 51. So you can watch that series and think, well, all this stuff about aliens isn't really about aliens. It's really about the government experimenting on human beings, you know, psychologically with drugs, with technology, and all the rest of it. Yes, actually, that's a great point. I actually wanted to talk about the unethical human experimentation examples you have in the book, but I wanted to throw this out while we're kind of equating Stranger Things and X-Files and real reveals. So most people listening will know about the Lone Gunman 9-11 sync. So Lone Gunman was a spinoff that came on after X-Files had wrapped and I'm going to play it in the final version of this real quick. It's only a couple minutes. This is the pilot episode of the X-Files spinoff. It aired six months before 9-11. What the hell are you doing? Why can't you stay out of this? Leave me buried. What is Scenario 12D? We know it's a war game scenario and it has to do with airline counterterrorism. Why is it important enough to kill for? Because it's no longer a game. If some terrorist group wants to act out this scenario, why target you for assassination? Depends on who your terrorists are. The men who conceived of it in the first place. You're saying our government plans to commit a terrorist act against a domestic airlock? There you go. Indicting the entire government as usual. It's a faction. A small faction. For what possible gain? The Cold War's over, John. But with no clear enemy to stockpile against, the arms market's flat. But bring down a fully loaded 727 into the middle of New York City and you'll find a dozen tinpot dictators all over the world just clamoring to take responsibility and begging to be smart bombed. I can't believe it. This is about increasing arm sales. When? Tonight. How are you going to stop them? Why didn't you tell the world this? Go to the press. You think I'd still be drawing breath 30 minutes after I made that call? The press? Who's going to run this story? We would. This? It's a birdcage liner. Wild-eyed crap right up there with Elvis as an alien and two-headed babies. You'll obviously read it. Don't be so damn naive. You think this is going to save the world? I'm doing what I can, John. I don't have all the specifics on scenario 12D, but I think I know the flight they've chosen. You stay out of it. I don't want overload gunning for you, too. Find anything? The luggage hole's clear if this thing can be trusted. What'd you do, make it with your erector set? You're absolutely sure that this is the targeted flight? This flight was chosen primarily for its visibility. It's scheduled to pass over Manhattan on its way to Boston. You said they intend to bring this down in the middle of New York City? What if there is no bomb? The way a dead man can drive a car. What do you mean, no bomb? Okay, go into headsets. I'll clone the air phone's carrier. Make them think we're sending a ground air fax. That's one twisted. Star 69. I'll just get ready to ride the wave, hippie boy. Just get me on that plane and I'll get you autopilot access. How are you gonna do that? Airline telemetry systems use processors similar to those found in CB radios. I'm in. We got ourselves a convoy. What's your progress? I've hacked into the flight control system output. With that little bit of help. It's what the brains of the plane is telling the little black box. Force heading, attitude hold, yaw axis stabilization. What the heck's that? Is that what it looks like? I think it is what it looks like. What does what look like? Modem protocols. Remote access. Somebody on the ground is flying your plane. Bogies, sir. Keep your course. I need to know our flight plan. I'm mapping the data now. Liars. Your flight's gonna make an unscheduled stop. The corner of Liberty in Washington. Lower Manhattan. I'm gonna crash the plane into the World Trade Center. All right, try cutting electrical power. I've thought of that. I've thought of everything. Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We're experiencing some technical difficulties up here. At this time, we'd like you all to return to your seats. And kiss your asses goodbye. Anyway, we're getting close. I know. I know. New York Center. This is Atlantic National Flight 265 Heavy. We are declaring an emergency. We have 110 souls on board, 16,000 pounds of fuel. That is so wild, and it is interesting that remote-controlled is even mentioned, which is what a lot of people seem to think about the real event, if there were any planes at all, as they're saying now. But they even say in there, it's not the government. It's a cabal of people with a secret agenda using the government. There's just so many little layers to what is said in that dialogue, as you know, that it's like, wow, what a hit. I don't know if there's other things you can think of from the main show, X-Files, that have that kind of, like, foreshadowing potency to real events. I'm sure there's a couple, but you did have something to say about that Lone Gunman clip and how you think it emerged to have been possible to have been in the show and aired so soon before the real event. Yeah, one of the problems that I have with people who make opinions about that is that they've never actually watched the episode. And if you actually watched the episode, this is all being staged. It's this program called Overlord by this cabal within the government, basically the neocons, pretty much, and to start wars and ramp up arms sales, which is exactly what happened following 9-11, isn't it? Now, if this was all some sort of predictive programming or whatever, that wouldn't fly. They wouldn't let that go. You know what I mean? The government, the CIA, I mean, we know for a fact, I mean, this has been documented over and over again, that the military and the CIA were all up in Hollywood's grill for years and just basically dictating terms, you know, just basically say, if you don't write the stories that we want you to write, you're not going to get any of our cooperation and our money and so on and so forth. Exactly. So that is not a story. We actually watch the actual episode. That's not a story that anyone in the government or the Pentagon or whomever, anybody in a position of authority, it could well be somebody was feeding them information and saying, you know, something's coming, something's going to happen and we want this out there so people can reference back to it, you know what I mean? And maybe wake up, you know what I'm saying? I mean, that's just a theory on my part. You know, it jibes with all all the things that have just fallen down the memory hole that people like Bill Cooper, right, was warning that something of this scale was going to happen and it was going to be blamed on bin Laden well before it happened. There are all these kind of stories that summer of warnings that there were some sort of plot to fly planes into skyscrapers and so on. I mean, this was all being talked about in the media well before 9-11 and it all just got flushed down the memory hole but as I detail in the book there were plots to fly airplanes into buildings going back to the 70s. This was something that was always in the air and I think it kind of started when a, I think it was a B-29 flew into the Empire State Building I think in 45, like somewhere in the 40s there was a heavy fog and this plane just like crashed into the Empire State Building. Yet it's still there. Yeah, well, there's all these, yeah, well, exactly. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know my thoughts on 9-11, you know, what that was really about but that's too much to go into here. Right. But I think, yeah, I think a much more sensible theory that I think is better supported by the facts and evidence is that if it wasn't just some weird coincidence which things do happen, you know, I talked about Jack Kirby through a story about somebody flying a jet that was loaded with like nuclear devices into a skyscraper, you know, that was in 1984 but, you know, Kirby also did like the face on Mars in 1957. Kirby was just like on a different level. If it wasn't just like some just weird fluke which I have trouble believing it was, I think that because there were so many people who had dissented from that whole neocon Gulf War II agenda and so on since Carter did have these connections with people like in the FBI, mostly in the FBI as far as as far as what I've heard, what better way to sort of at least put your marker down than a, you know, a very high profile show airing on, you know, on a Sunday night after The Simpsons and so on. I mean, that is a speculation on my part but I think that a lot of the theories that people espouse about that episode, they just don't hold water because it's so clear that the people's, you know, espousing these theories never actually watch the episode. Fair enough. I mean, with 13 seasons and a couple of movies and all the conspiracy tropes peppered throughout The X-Files, are there any similar scenes that stand out as predating a real event that is like a pretty big nail on the head like that one was? I don't know that. You know, that's pretty, that's hard to beat. It is. You know, you can't, you can't really overshadow that one. There are a lot of episodes with storylines that, you know, we've kind of taken for granted these days. Just for an example, there's an episode called Heronvoke, which is how the smallpox vaccination was used to collect genetic information that was being used to tag and catalog us. And that's something that, you know, we've heard talked about. All the storylines with vaccination and engineered plagues go back, way back in the series, at least to the second season, if not before, you know, by inference. They did an episode on, called Red Museum where cattle were being injected with alien DNA. So this whole idea that our food supplies are being used for delivery for genetic experimentation, which I think Bill Gates was talking about a couple weeks ago. Yeah, yeah. Right? You know what I'm saying? You know, I mentioned Deep Throat where UFOs are being used as cover for experimental aircraft, right? There's an episode called the Pine Glove variant where a far-right militias are all under government control and used for, you know, for terror purposes. And in this particular case, it's to test this really horrific toxin, you know, biological warfare kind of thing. My struggle too, I think you might have mentioned this, where the pandemic is being used as a cover for genetic manipulation via CRISPR-Cas9. I mean, who knew about CRISPR-Cas9 in 2016? Right, exactly. Those are just some of the ones that come to my mind off the top of my head. And, oh, this is a really big one because in the expanded hardcover version, I did a chapter on Edward Snowden. Well, they were doing exactly what Snowden was talking about several years before he came out of the woodwork. It was an episode called Trust No One, which is all about, like, specifically about the NSA doing, basically collecting surveillance on everyone. And who knew about that? You know, who was talking about the NSA and broad-spectrum surveillance in 2002? Right. Not many. It's funny because, like, after 9-11, it's like, it almost seemed like the stories got more extreme, you know, because you had a lot of storylines that were much more confrontational, I guess you would say, and Trust No One is a perfect example of that. But that was, like, really gutsy when they're talking about the Patriot Act to do an entire storyline about the NSA just basically hoovering up all our data everywhere and having everyone under surveillance. Right. Who was talking about that? Absolutely. Yeah, that is a big one. Okay, so before this interview ends, I did want to at least touch on Anne Heche because you did a really great, great deep dive on this, and then you did a presentation on Tinfoil Hats two and a half hours. Anybody who's interested in really the long form of this should really check out that Tinfoil Hat interview. But that footage of Anne Heche being put in the ambulance, rising up after her fiery car crash, it definitely disturbed me, and I will play it as we're talking about it. But I didn't really know much about Anne Heche except I've heard the name a couple of times, and I don't know why I didn't look more into it, but it just seemed like one weird event and a continuum of weird events. It's probably more relevant with some of these facts. So if people don't know, she did date Ellen from 1997 to 2000, being in the first openly lesbian couple in Hollywood. The premise of the overall material that you did, I would say, is that she probably knew a little bit too much about the dark network of Hollywood. Ellen, of course, wears that white, bloody face hoodie along with Diddy. Why Diddy and Ellen are wearing any similar wardrobe, I don't understand. Don't forget the set that looks like Jeffrey Epstein's temple. Absolutely. We'll throw that up there. If people haven't seen Ellen's set, it does look quite a bit like that strange temple. Diddy was also on the show sometimes, which was weird, but Diddy was formally charged in 2024, the year Ellen moved to the UK. And funny, rumors seem to be that Tom Hanks moved to Greece in 2024, too. I hear he bounces back and forth, but that's another person associated with the bloody face image via the Wilson castaway volleyball. Anyway, in 2001, Anne Heche published a memoir titled Call Me Crazy in which she alleged extensive sexual abuse by her father. Seems like she wanted to talk about such things. Also, the film she had just completed before her death is The Girl in Room 13, Apparently it sucks, but this is the plot. Grace becomes addicted to opioids after suffering a sports injury. She's ready to leave her addiction behind under her mother's watch, but her past won't let her go. Richie kidnaps her in a motel room to sell her into human trafficking. Probably would have been a hell of a press tour if Anne Heche was around to have it. Her crash in 2022, the same year, Ellen's DJ Twitch was found in a hotel room dead of suicide. Autopsy report showed no drugs or alcohol in his system and the wife filed a missing persons report the day before. Family says he was in no way depressed. Sketchy. The ring camera footage of the crash looks like she couldn't stop. Maybe the brakes were cut. They didn't get her out of the fiery car for over 49 minutes, which you've said is a detail to pay attention to. You wrote that this is one of the most unsettling cases you've ever investigated, and I have a feeling there's a lot more disturbing on the bone. There is something seriously wrong with what's going on here, you say. So I just kind of want to ask you to give us the brief overview, but I do think when you add up all these facts, it does seem like a cleanup of people who might have known about the dark stuff at the Diddy parties or the Frazzle Drip video or something, but two people around Ellen who know her intimately, dead in the same year, and then she leaves the country. Ellen was tied in with a lot of people. Well, first of all, Ellen, her first girlfriend in 1980 died in a car crash as well. Apparently, this woman was tied up with, this is in New Orleans, she's tied up with an organized crime and so on. Three years later, Anne Heche's brother dies in a car crash, and Anne Heche later said that she thought it was suicide. Her father died of AIDS that same year, and that's like really early. That's, you know, two years before the whole Rock Hudson thing hit the news and so on. You talked about the whole Frazzle Drip thing. We both have seen something. Actually, the thing I saw was a little, you know, it was a little bit, a little bit nebulous. You know, I'm not exactly sure what I was looking at, but another person you didn't mention was Justin Roiland of Rick and Morty fame because he started off doing this cartoon that was basically this weird pedophile monster who liked to, you know, basically Frazzle Drip kids, like just rip their faces off. Yep, I found that too. A lot of people might not remember that a couple years ago, a few years ago, before he was canceled, basically, he did an ad for Pringles where he basically, they redid that, like they redid the Frazzle Drip thing, but when they tore the face off, there was like an Android face underneath. It was, you know, it was Morty's face underneath it or was it Rick? I don't remember. I heard you say that and I couldn't find that one. I saw a Wendy's commercial he made. Yeah, I think they might have memory holed it because I think people might have said, what are you doing here? This is really sick and weird. Right. You revealed it on the Super Bowl, basically, and then you got hit with a sex scandal and your career was ruined. Funny how that worked out. Inheesh was, as you said, with Ellen. And there's been a lot of talk that maybe Ellen was involved and I don't really believe that. I think it's very possible, if not likely, that Inheesh was killed to send a message to Ellen because Ellen, don't forget, her show had been canceled just a few weeks before Inheesh dies in that accident. Was she planning on talking? She had nothing to lose. You know, she basically said that they destroyed her career. And if you look at the way that all played out, it was so clearly orchestrated. It was so clearly one of these operations that was run out of these big agencies in Hollywood when they want to get rid of people. People who are basically not producing what, you know, as far as income, what they need them to produce. And that's why, you know, we had Me Too and all the rest of it. Look at the people who were taken up by Me Too. It was people who had once made a lot of money for a lot of people and then lost a lot of money for a lot of people. Harvey Weinstein being a classic example. That guy made a lot of money in the 90s. Then he starts the Weinstein Company and I don't think any of those films that they released made any money. So how do you get rid of them? Because, you know, here's a guy who's got a lot of dirt on a lot of people. You know, everybody's in each other's business. So my working theory is that because the Diddy thing was heating up behind the scenes, you know, as you mentioned, what was her name, Destiny, I think. No, who was her name, the woman who brought the charges? Cassie. Okay, Cassie. So that's really what opens up the whole floodgates. But that story was boiling under for several years, for at least five years before that because, you know, I'd mentioned how Cat Williams had been talking about Diddy and the white parties and all this stuff for ages, for ages. And there's always been talk that Diddy might have had Tupac killed and all these kind of things. Luckily for Diddy, they put in James Comey's daughter to prosecute that case and she just totally mishandled everything. Right. And all these people who I think would have been exposed by whatever tapes, whatever evidence Diddy might have been collecting to blackmail them, which we now know that he was doing, it was going to create a lot of problems for a lot of people. And I think it was going to end up going very high up. And one of the people that Diddy was associated with was Clive Davis. And if you don't know that name, that dude is like, you know, basically one of the emperors of the music industry. You know, he started Arista Records and had a ton of major artists, Whitney Houston being one of them, who's now also no longer with us. Things got very dark and bad at some point in the music industry. And maybe like the money evaporating because of Napster and downloading it. Maybe that had something to do with it. I don't know. I think there were a lot of people concerned. And again, this is just a working theory that because Ellen was so tight with Diddy that she knew a lot of things that he knew. But you can't kill Ellen. Why? Because she's too high profile. And I'm sure she probably had Dead Man switches and things filed away. I'm sure once you get into a certain level, they all kind of tell each other, hey, if you see this now, I'm going to show you something here now and we're going to have to put your name on the thumb drive that we got back there in the safe so that people know that you have this too. There probably is like that conversation. Like if you go past this threshold, then, you know, you need insurance. I think that's exactly correct. You recently had John McAfee's widow on. Yeah. And, you know, we know all about those stories with Dead Man switches and so on. So I think killing Ellen would be extremely problematic. People don't remember that she was also in a car accident. She had T-boned somebody at an intersection and maybe that was an attempt. I don't know. When you look at the timeline and you look at some of the evidence, Anne had gone into a boutique or some sort of salon or something and bought a wig and, you know, the guy who owned the salon said she was, you know, perfectly normal, perfectly happy, didn't seem stressed or anything like that. Didn't seem like she was high or drunk. You know, just seemed like just very happy and normal. And then all of a sudden she's cruising down, you know, a side street in Santa Monica at 100 miles an hour. I think that's, I think her car was commandeered by remote control. I think when she had that little accident when she hit some garage in some crappy apartment building and then drove off, I think she was starting to panic and then she, like she almost hits a woman. I think she gets into another thing. I think she had lost control of her vehicle and she didn't know what was going on. But I think by the time she's barreling down that street at 100 miles an hour and you hear this like screeching sound, which to me sounds like she was trying to engage her parking brake, which as you know, if you're going 100 miles an hour isn't going to do shit, right? I think that she knew by then that, you know, that somebody was trying to kill her and the fact that she was allowed to sit in that car, that burning car in a burning house for 49 minutes is just, I can't even wrap my head around that. A long time. That's two episodes of Seinfeld. You know, particularly since, you know, the fire department was already, you know, on the scene fairly quickly, but somehow there were no paramedics there. There was no, there was just a, one of these kind of fire ambulances, but there was no paramedic team. There was just a couple of firefighters who just basically tossed her into the back of this truck. The way she was strapped in, you know, they said that she had like a neck injury or something. Well, then why did they put basically a seatbelt across her neck? You know, they said that she was having oxygen, starved brain. Well, why wasn't she unconscious? They said that she was severely burnt, she had severe injuries, but if you look at the autopsy reports, she basically had patches of secondary burns. She was very, very lucky. You know, despite the fact that they let her sit in that car for 49 minutes, she only had fairly small burnt areas of burn and there were second degree burns. They weren't even like third degree burns. None of it adds up. At one point, they say she's doing fine and Thomas Jane, who was her ex-boyfriend, comes and said, oh, you know, she's going to make it and she's going to recover and she's in stable condition. Then all of a sudden we hear that they're getting ready to carve her organs out. The whole situation is just very weird. But the thing that I was looking at was like the ritual dates because it, you know, took place in basically an ancient festival to Hecate, who was like a witch goddess. And Anne, I'm sorry, Ellen came out on April 30th. That program, it was called The Puppy Show of all things, you know, because there's all these serious tie-ins again, serious and flame and so on, you know, the burning star and everything. That episode where Ellen came out in 1997 again aired on Welpurgus Night, which is basically the witch's Sabbath in Europe and is very popular among people who practice what's called Dianic witchcraft, you know, in particular. You know, Heche is actually a derivative of Hecht. So you have that same kind of consonant sound between Hecht and Hecate. And then I connected it to, we talked about the situation at the Super Bowl, right? Remind me. Super Bowl back in 2015 when that woman was just basically incinerated, like she lost control of her car and it drove straight into the train tracks. Didn't we talk about this? I don't think so. We could do a whole show on this. It was one of the most horrific things you'll ever see. It was after the, it was after Super Bowl 49, so there's the 49 again, the woman who is basically incinerated alive was 49 years old. She's hit by a train that's going 49 miles an hour. So there's all that, that symbolism there. And that ties to Libra 49, which is Babylon in like Jack Parsons version of Thelema. So there are all, you know, all these connections with witchcraft. But also that day that that woman was basically incinerated, her name was Ellen, by the way. Her name was Ellen Brody. Now, what's the significance of that? Ellen Brody was the name of the wife of the Roy Scheider character in Jaws. If you remember that Super Bowl, Katy Perry's dancing with the sharks. Ah, yes. For some bizarre reason. And before the Super Bowl, she says, Jaws will drop and faces will melt. You know, she didn't, I'm sure she was told to say that. Yeah, yeah, of course. You know what I'm saying? So this is, it takes place in Valhalla, New York. Another hot topic right now. Yeah, exactly right. With Charlie Kirk. And it's pretty much right on the Hudson River. Katy Perry's real name is Katy Hudson. And that's when she came in, she came into the song Roar and she's basically doing the Whore of Babylon. She's riding on this giant golden idol of a lion with these ruby red eyes. but she's also wearing a flame dress. Yep. You know, her dress is all flames and she sang Firework. And again, Ellen means, did we mention that Ellen means torch? No, I don't think so. Ellen is derived from the Greek word for torch. I just want to fold in a couple other things about this. So if we are kind of taking the premise that it seems like around 2022 there was a cleanup maybe of people who could be called to trial, something like that. You know, they're getting rid of people, getting rid of Twitch, getting rid of Anne Heche. Well, this is also the timeline of Obama's chef drowning in 2023. And you noted in that interview with Sam that Bill Clinton had a chef drown in 2015. So obviously a little off the timeline but why do two presidents have chefs who drown mysteriously? Maybe they could have been called to talk about things they were asked to prepare or maybe it was just like a Buckley kind of ritual too, you know? Well, yeah, possibly. And then the other big thing, the twinning aspect. So Anne Heche's car hits a bungalow by the beach, a small little bungalow. We know these things and you say that you think that the woman who lived there was supposed to die. She looks a lot like Anne Heche. You showed the side-by-side in that interview. So what are the chances that a person who lives in the house you hit looks a lot like you? Odd. She also had the two dogs and, you know, that connects to Hecate and to Sirius. There you go. So this woman didn't die and you say that another woman four days later was found hanging from a tree on fire in Griffith Park and it was said to be a suicide. She was also a victim of sex trafficking, Vanessa Garcia. So if you're doing a ritual and you're trying to take this woman and give her a fiery death because that's the ritual and you hit this woman and it doesn't go right, you find another woman and you light her on fire and hang her from a tree and you say, well, that works. Basically completes the ritual there. Yeah, that's how people commit suicide. They set themselves on fire and then they hang themselves or they hang themselves and they set themselves on fire. I'm not exactly sure. Yeah, what is the order? The other thing too is that the cops didn't investigate and say it was suicide. The cops said right away that it was suicide. They just flat out said that it was suicide and it wasn't like they said, oh, we have, you know, surveillance video of her coming in along with a can of gas and everything. They just said it was suicide. This is why I'm so glad you're out of California and I just always tell people, particularly if they're in Los Angeles, to get the hell out of Los Angeles because I just think it's become total dominion of demons to be honest with you. But that story was absolutely nuts. But there are all these ritual dates with the dog days and so on and also this connection to the Hecate and Ides, which is this festival to Hecate who is known for the two dogs and the torch. So you ask about that woman who's not only basically a human torch, a twin of Van Heche, but she had two dogs and her house gets set on fire. So the whole situation is just, it is one of the most disturbing things I've ever encountered because with a lot of these stories, there's always sort of like an out. Like, okay, well, you know, this looks bad, but there's some other explanation that we can make. There are so many moving parts with this story and again, that connection to that situation with that woman in Valhalla in 2015, Ellen, who dies on the, the day of the Festival of Torches, by the way, which is also connected to Hecate and so on. It was basically a twin of the day that Anne Heche died on the Hecate, or when she was declared dead on the Hecateanites. So the whole thing, there are just too many ritualized connections for me to say, oh, well, this is weird, but maybe it's just all syncs. Well, a lot of people try to say the Anne Heche thing. They say that, well, if you're in trauma, you might jump up and that kind of thing, but that is not what it looks like to me. But if you watch the video, every comment section, top comment is saying like, well, when your body goes through a traumatic event like that, you don't know how it might react. And it's like, sure, go ahead and say that. That's your swamp gas weather balloon explanation. But what I saw is a woman who's like, don't shove me in this ambulance and don't cover me up. I want to get free. She was trying to get away. Yeah. And the guy doesn't act like he's surprised that she jumped up. You know, if I'm pushing a gurney and someone jumps up, I'm like, whoa, look, you know, you might get them to lay back down and stuff, but he has no reaction at all. He's just like subtly like go into the vehicle. So, but let me try to wrap a bow around this. So you also did a two and a half hour, I think maybe three hour event the other night that was quite good. And I want to bring out a couple of little facts that draw a line between the beginning of the show and this Anne Heche thing here at the end of the show. And of course, the Sybil. Cocktooth twins have an album called Bluebell Knoll. Well, Boulder Mountain, also known as Bluebell Knoll, is in Utah and it makes up half of the Aquarius Plateau of South Central Utah and Wayne and Garfield counties to get to Orem where Charlie Kirk was shot is less than 200 miles and you have to drive right through Aurora to get there. James Shelby Downer, where are you? We need you. So then five blocks from where Charlie Kirk is assassinated is a Best Friends Animal Sanctuary. Why is that relevant? Well, it seems to be a front for something because according to your slide, according to the FBI, David Berkowitz was a member of the Process Church and was associated with the individuals running the Best Friends Animal Sanctuary. Leaders of the Best Friends Animal Sanctuary were allegedly involved with Berkowitz in several of the Son of Sam murders and who's one of the big donors? Ellen and her wife. It never ends. It never ends, Chris. Yeah, it really doesn't. I'm going to be doing a live stream on the Process because that's a story I've been following for a long time. I wrote a lot about the Process in The Endless American Midnight, as you probably are well aware of. When I saw that situation with Charlie Kirk and as you said, like just a few blocks away is Best Friends Animal. But you've got to be very careful because they're extremely litigious. Allegedly, supposedly. I mean, this is just what I heard online. The thing, they're well known that they're an outgrowth of the Process Church. It was started by Marianne de Grimstead after she split up with Robert. But there was another split off in the Process Church and where were their headquarters? Rockefeller Plaza. What an interesting place for a cult to have their headquarters, right? Very, very strange connections there. With the Charlie Kirk thing, so you mentioned Bluebell Knoll, but there was also the fact that the Cocktail Twins played Utah a grand total of once and their opening act was a band called Luna. Now, Luna is the name of who they claim is Tyler Robinson's trans boyfriend. His birth name is Lance and he changed his name to Luna. Now, the Cocktail Twins were touring for an album that was released four days before Charlie Kirk was born. You know, so basically the same week. Same birthday as George Floyd, by the way. A couple of sacrifices, one for each team. Everybody pays the piper. Well, it's interesting because I was going back and looking at a lot of my old tweets because I was trying to figure out why I got shadow banned on Twitter for so many years. And then I kind of realized, well, yeah, I was not going along with the program. I was writing all these tweets exposing BLM and Antifa and George Floyd worship. Did we tweet? I believe we talked about on your show my big post on the connection with George Floyd and some of the rituals that took place in the spring in the ancient world. Yes, I do recall that. You know, that very much seemed like a fertility sacrifice. But that's probably why I got shadow banned on Twitter before. Elon bought them. Well, although the big ritual never ends, these interviews have to sometime. I'm on studio time now. I did expect this to be a fun talk about some pop culture 90s X-Files nostalgia, but it did break into the heavy reality of our times. This just happens. But thanks, as always, for doing it. Tell the fine folks at home where they can get the latest from the Secret Son Institute, details about the book, all the rest of it. The Secret Son, substack.com, secretson.blogspot.com. You know, you can find all the other places that I am. The book is out now. Amazon, it's available in paperback, hardcover, and Kindle versions. The hardcover is huge. It's over 400 pages long, and there's a lot more of the kind of conspiracy and parapolitical stuff that we've been discussing in the expanded version. And I'm sure most of your viewers know where to find me by now. I mean, I'm such a known quantity, right? Yes, yes. But again, yeah, just secrets on Secrets on Speaks on Twitter. I'm easy to find. I'm easy to find. I keep a high profile. Well, if I had a Mount Crushmore, I'm sure you'd be on it, but unfortunately, that's been copywritten by someone else. My 30th or 35th. I don't know how many times I've been on. It's just the Chris Knowles chats at this point, but you are the man. I appreciate it. Thanks for sending me a copy of the book. Anyone who's an X-Files fan or fan of the themes in the X-Files would learn a lot. Thanks again and take care. All right, guys. Well, that was fun, but I do know what you're thinking. How could I record a two-hour interview with the Secret Sun's wise sage of synchromysticism and not mention Snake Eyes? Maybe the most potently layered synchromystic pop culture conspiratorial event of all time. Well, easy. So we recorded this interview last week and then later that afternoon I hit him with the thread on Snake Eyes and we were both blown away with each additional layer of detail. And then Chris did a member's live stream that night and I helped him get some of the facts together and I hung out a bit for it and it was great. He broke it all down and connected a lot of dots with the larger tapestry that he tends to cover and it was just wild. But then yesterday I recorded an interview with Richard Willett who is Wayne McCroy's co-host for the Synchromystic podcast and we covered it all and he even blew my mind with some things I didn't know like writer-director Brian De Palma for Snake Eyes of course actually has his birthday as 9-11. Is anything real? So I'm kind of talking around this because I assume 80% of our listeners already know and as I just said I have this other interview where it is a big part of the show coming right up. Just to bring people up to speed there is a Nicolas Cage movie from the 90s called Snake Eyes and he plays a detective who is at a live boxing match on September 10th and a senator named Charles Kirkland gets shot in the neck and so you have the name the date and the method if we were playing Clue it would be game over but it does go deeper still the boxer who takes a dive as a distraction intentionally his name is Lincoln the executioner Tyler and then also there's this Trump character where you know you go to the IMDB trivia and for a long time it's been known this character is based on Trump it's not some new thing it's not a stretch and this character who is the billionaire who owns the casino he's friends with the guy who got shot and then as the film unfolds it turns out he was in on it because Charles Kirkland wouldn't just go along with the plan and you know how that goes but it is very wild maybe the most layered detailed example of Sink ever and also the movie Snake Eyes relating to a real event that took place in the year of the snake and then the Charlie Kirk Memorial is at the State Farm Arena in Phoenix and the only sports team I know of represented by a snake is the Arizona Diamondbacks it is wild but I'll have to just shut up or I'm repeating myself for the next episode though I think this is so crazy it deserves to be talked about more than twice it is part of our secret sauce here synchromysticism you know but as for what this episode was actually about we even have a weird sync with Charlie Kirk being shot on the 32nd anniversary of the X-Files airing isn't that odd sharing a birthday with George Floyd it's all getting far too weird and something is definitely up with the Best Friends Pet Sanctuary funny because when we finished recording this my man in the booth was like damn not only was that a great interview but that's where we got our dog Best Friends Pet Sanctuary so it definitely hit him with a nice personal touch to cap it all off and big congrats to Chris for getting this book out it's very detailed I know the X-Files might not be a big part of every listener's life anymore but thematically it is all there and we tried to stick to the themes and inspirations and real world events that were related to the show rather than the plot or behind the scenes drama and all that I hoped that we could fold in a little something for everyone while paying our respects to the best of the best and the work that it takes to get a new project out but I think we really stuck the landing putting the Anne Hayes stuff there at the end with the Ellen overlay and the Charlie Kirk shooting connection bringing it back to the beginning it really was full circle anyway yes some somewhat current events on the front and back end with a lot of great stuff related to the book in the middle the second hour got into the Falklands War and extraterrestrial involvement and the black goo which is a big theme in the X-Files we talked about that latest black goo story from the kid who found the meteor I think I even threw that up on the screen too if the guys in the studio could find it hard to find the original footage and I don't TikTok I guess I have to it's kind of part of the job now but we went down a big list of unethical human experimentation throughout U.S. history I brought up the St. Louis Pruitt-Igoe housing project and the sprayers people said they remember there and their health effects and I mentioned at that part that my memory was fuzzy but I was pretty sure that the architect of the Pruitt-Igoe building was the same main architect of the Twin Towers and that fact is correct I looked it up afterwards and both of them have the same chief architect and funny enough both buildings went down in professional demolitions we also talked about cults in the X-Files and in life cultural shifts and the rise of the nerds and just what Jed Apatow did to all of us the Kellogg's legacy and the food industry we talked a little bit about how I really am into Matt Leshack's work Leshack Leshack the Fiat Food book that really talks about how getting this off the gold standard was a big part of trying to find some bullshit cheap cardboard-esque food that could hide that inflation we talked about the whole drama with Scully's pregnancy and maybe some other stuff going on there if you heard it you heard it and I hope you could read between the lines and all that sign up for Plus if you want to support a show that does it all without interruptions and unrelated sponsors or networks or managers or agents or anything links right there in the show notes if you are an X-Files fan you would love this book the episode by episode guide really does give you a lot to think about going back through all the different episodes I actually probably will go back through the series myself and just watch the ones that Chris gave five stars because he does rate every episode too alright oh and I think at the end there Chris had mentioned the frazzled drip inspired cartoon that Justin Roiland had made when we were talking about the idea that this video got out this little piece of insurance and they wanted to shut it down and maybe killed a bunch of people who knew anything about it if it did go to court and could be called upon but Justin Roiland yeah apparently he made two videos that were allusions to the frazzled drip video and one of them was Rick and Morty and it was an actual Super Bowl commercial and I went and watched that is for Pringles yeah Chris is right Morty's face comes off and he's a robot underneath it does seem like Justin is trying to allude to that without getting caught you know you can't spell it out so it's always going to be a little iffy but I think I could see him as the kind of guy who would get a charge from coming right up to the line on something like that especially during such a high profile event and that's one thing but I want to play the non Rick and Morty cartoon that he made it is a lot more overt and remember cartoons take a lot of effort to make for the audio listeners I'm only going to play the relevant 30 seconds or so and hearing it is really all you need but a guy comes home from work and he has two kids tied up in his living room and gagged and then he just pulls out a switchblade and cuts off their faces use your imagination the time has come for me to dispose of you I've had my sexual fill and I cannot allow your presence to distract me from my job as head writer and host of the wildly successful television show Unbelievable Tales God forgive me you're my inspiration you're my inspiration you're my inspiration ugh it is just so sickening why would a guy do this is it to reveal or is it to celebrate hard to say but the PR machine definitely took him down right after he wouldn't shut up about this much like Charlie Kirk if you start to say too much or the wrong things then they just take away the audience that you were allowed to have one way or another that's the world alright as far as higher side news goes obviously I tried to rearrange my office here it's a bit better for filming wrap ups I still do have some work to do but that whole long shot across the entire room that was very weird I wanted to fix that but everybody films in this sort of way where they're backed up right to a wall and think about how unnatural that is now my desk is in the center of the room but I guess it has to serve its function anyway this is at least progress I still don't think you can really read the titles of the books on the wall and that would be nice if you could so the shelf needs to be organized but whatever what else what else I don't know if there's really anything else pretty standard stuff don't fix it if it ain't broke right so let's do the review thing for the last episode Richard Grove you know he was really good if you ask me some people were critical of his ego but I don't mind the little ego if it's earned you know I've talked to a lot of guests who wrote mediocre books one time and I don't understand why their ego is so inflated or you know various reasons but Richard had great recall and he had a source book for pretty much everything and then he presented things really well audio listeners didn't see this but when Richard would reference a book he could typically grab it off the shelf and then put it down and cut to a different camera that would display the cover I mean who does that you know that's going the extra mile so I appreciated the attention to detail I thought he did a great job even when I asked him about a few things outside of his wheelhouse like the secret societies and what the secrets are and cultists and all that stuff that's not exactly his layer of the conspiracy but the plus listeners were impressed he got a 4.7 and that makes sense he was very good so I'm glad that we are in alignment there and I put out a show that was well liked that's all I'm trying to do now as for the meetup calendar two new events have been added let's get into that all right October 8th at the Coal Bitter Collective at Riverscape Metro Park in Dayton, Ohio October 9th New Haven, Connecticut Three Sheets that's where it's going down October 17th in Elkin North Carolina at the Rail Yard okay and I thought I saw another one here oh September 28th that's actually today if you still have time to attend it is tonight at 6 o'clock if you're in Portland, Oregon go to Bunk Bar and Portland's in the news actually stay safe stay out of it don't let yourself get swept up in craziness and I'm not trying to say that if we just keep letting it go that totalitarian authoritarian stuff won't get worse it probably will but just stay safe I mean it's pretty basic stuff anyway that is tonight at Bunk Bar if they're still open in Portland, Oregon alright I think Higher Side Chats fans are pretty savvy when it comes to navigating stuff like that without getting too emotionally riled up I don't know I'm kind of just bullshitting because I haven't really looked at it that much except to see that it was a trend and that it's because the troops are coming out and they're going for Antifa which I don't even think is a real organization with the headquarters or anything it's just kind of a vague thing like terrorist and we know how the game is played you use a vague term so you can basically do whatever you want in the name of getting X, Y, or Z anyway stay safe out there and it's nice to see a couple more events added to the calendar it's great to meet like-minded local people and put the screens down for a while especially when things are heating up and that's basically the show thanks for keeping me in your rotation I know there's a never-ending stream of attention-seeking content so sticking with me is much appreciated take care of you and yours big thanks to Chris as well I have done my part your move synchromistic pop culture template takers conspiratorial showrunners and engineers of those so-called real-world events your fucking move Chris says AI is useless he thinks that it's all hype but as he tried to make a song from whatever he can type it may be just a parlor trick but life is just a parlor passing we're pushing this shit farther a prestigious place to learn watch the world burn and so fun decoding all the things some second to none something in the wires sing something in the wire 밥 what is just what i 有 Quel- i i i i i a took irl resp middle self i you i i we i i i i i we i