Episode #101: Atlantis Quest; Hapgood Crust/Pole Shifts; Bronze Age Collapse; Science Censored

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We still haven't quite managed to get the view we want of the current ripples in Camas Prairie. You know, with the sunlight. But it's still, it was a beautiful trip. Montana is, of course, gorgeous. And I think the year before we did it in the spring. This time we did it closer to the fall. I couldn't tell any difference, except there was less water this time. It was still just as green, just as beautiful. Um, but yeah, it was, it was really an amazing trip. It's a, it's interesting. I would, I, again, I've said this before. I would say it again. It's not as, not maybe not as like visually mind blowing as the scab lands, but you still have to see the Montana. You still have to see all this stuff in Montana to get the scale and understand that this is where this stuff is supposed to have started. Uh, but there are beautiful canyons and the current ripples is amazing. You know, looking at Lake Pend Oreille and just Flathead Lake and then the moraines, all that stuff is just really awesome. Give you a picture of the size, you know, we're like, okay, we're looking at one lobe of this enormous ice sheet and it would dumped all this material here and we're standing on top of it, looking out at this hole. That's now a lake. It's really amazing. Right. And we pulled in the, the drumlin field also dog leg, almost all the way to Canadian border to see the drumlins and Eureka and the Rocky mountain trench. That was pretty outstanding. I thought we were there looking at cows. Oh yeah, that's right. We were accused of looking at cows. The farmer was, I still, I, I tell you, I was chuckling over that for the rest of the day. I mean, I'm thinking here's this old, this farmer up there and it's at four, four passenger buses pull up and what, 45 people get out and they're all lined up. They're looking down at the drumlins and then the cows come up, the three cows. And he thought that we all pulled over and got out to watch his three cows. Cows go to the county fair. Cows go to the county fair. Well, yeah, these are the most interesting cows. These people have never seen cows before. They're from, uh, what? Somewhere. They don't have cows where they come from. Yeah. No, that was, uh, New York city. They've never seen a cow. Oh, we thought they were elk. We thought that was an elk herd. I think the cows came to look at us. Yeah. There were no cows there and we're looking at the drumlins and suddenly these cows come up over the hill and stand there watching us. Yeah. That farmer was accusing us. I mean, it was the cows that were there to look at us. Yeah. I think just to provide a little context for the listener, you know, we, we were looking for a kind of a, uh, an overlook so we could see down onto the drumlin swarm and we kind of just, it was a country road and we just pulled off there with the, with the, what about seven or eight vehicles we had. Yeah. Yeah. So we're all lined up there and, uh, we're looking down at the drumlins and it just so happened. It was a cow pasture and three cows came up to see what the hell we were up to. And the farmer came out, thought we had all stopped there to see his cows. He's going to be telling of that story about for the rest of his life. Yeah. But this is, this just goes to show what you always say is like, all these people are living here and they don't even know what they're living on. Right. They don't most likely, probably most of them don't realize that these formations are living on or how they were created. And this guy's just thinking, we're looking at cows. I told the one guy, he said, what are y'all doing? I was like, we're looking at the drumlins. The what? Yeah. All these glacial hills are, uh, he sped away. Just takes off. Yeah. Was it Ben that said we should be telling him we're from the government. We're here to build an interstate. Yeah. That's what he told me. And we're going to have a landing strip right over here. Yeah. Yeah. Oh boy. Next time. But then, you know what? That's why it is gratifying when you do run into somebody that actually knows a little something. And we do. I, there was at least one fellow, where was it that we ran into and he definitely knew what was going on around there and his, when we came out of the, uh, the first stop at the Yokelops point, the local guy at the gas station there. Yeah. He knew what was up. Uh-huh. Oh yeah. Right. Matt, maybe. Um, Hey buddy, if you're out there. Yeah. And then we, okay. And then there was, uh, yeah, we, we, one of the last days we stopped in for gas and I went in, what place was it? And the guy behind the counter, he, I was getting the look. So, you know, the look like. Aren't you Jerry Garcia? Aren't you Jerry Garcia or his younger brother anyway? No, but it's funny. I start getting recognized in places where I just wouldn't have even imagined that I would get wrecked, like in stopping at the convenience store in, you know, Montana, the guy behind the counter recognized, Oh man. And he, of course he knew who you guys were. He's been watching a podcast. So you never know where you're going to run into somebody. Well, yeah, that was a, what was it? The scab lands trip. We were sheriff. We were having lunch and then the cop car comes up and not, I'm like, Oh no. I thought we were getting busted. Yeah. I got to walk over here to talk to this guy. Nope. He's like, is that Randall Carlson? That was cool. Yeah. We were on the way to step toe, but you didn't sign, you didn't sign anything. Randall. Did you from the cop? Just don't, just don't sign anything. No. Okay. Can I get your autograph? Just don't say anything. Don't sign, you know? Yeah. Yeah. He says, are you Randall Carlson? I don't answer questions. Right. I don't answer questions. You guys here on a, on a tour. I don't answer questions. Is that Russ and Kyle you got with you? The Serpent brothers. I don't answer questions. Talk to my manager. Yeah. Excellent trip. Yeah. It was. We'll do, we'll do more, but next year we're going to do a different one. Yeah. Well, yeah. We talked about some of that last, last episode. Well, you know, interestingly, I'm going to be due to do this disclosure. And one of the speakers there is been making studies. And apparently there's a lot of paranormal type phenomena in the Columbia Gorge. Had not heard that. I hadn't either. Like Sasquatch, but nearby, but not other things. Well, that's one of his, I think that's covered in his presentation, but it's a bunch of, there's a bunch of stuff. I was just looking very briefly, but yeah, that. Well, what do they mean paranormal? Like lights or ghosts or beyond normal, well, we got a newbie. Like what? Like what? Well, I can tell you in a second here. I mean, if you're going to be that way about it, Mike, I would just get to mention it as a, and then, you know, move on, but no. Oh, okay. Let's see here. I bet you I can get it up in about a second here. I don't, you don't remember his name. Let's see. But yeah, he, uh, in fact, uh, one of the, uh, publicists and producers wanted to know if I'd be willing to have a, uh, uh, uh, do a interview with this guy. Cause on a, on a, um, and I got, I didn't remember his name, but, uh, I should have it right. I know you've, you've talked a lot about the Hudson Valley and there was some really famous UFO sightings in the Hudson Valley as well. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yep. And it could be, you know, not for tonight's, uh, conversation too much, but we certainly could get into some of the interesting work. Uh, I'm thinking primarily of Paul Devereaux's work, you know, the earthquake lights and things and other phenomena that's well-documented to have occurred in association with seismist seismicity. Um, well, let's see here. That was like episode two. We, we did talk about that, but it certainly would be worth. Maybe we do more in 102. Yeah. We certainly be worth revisiting. There was a story on CNN recently about earthquake lights. Uh, the, uh, was it down in Peru? South somewhere, South America. I think there were, uh, there was one of the few recorded instances of, of earthquake lights. It was on video. Uh-huh. So they're real. Yeah. I mean, they are definitely real. Um, the, the, the story said that it was one of those things that people often heard tales about, but there was little documentation, but, uh, this was, uh, one of the first instances of video recording on, of earthquake lights. It was real impressive. Yeah. It's good. It's like, uh, it's like ball lightning or the giant squid, right? It's like, yeah, for a long time, but no actual evidence until, or anything other than anecdotal evidence until more recently. Mm-hmm. Uh, well, I have here. What are you looking for? The paranormal stuff in Columbia Gorge? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, let's see. There's going to be a live show. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I've got it here. The, it's cryptids, UFOs, and portals. Um, James Zuzsky, Zuzsky, uh, former volunteer search and rescue EMT, wild land firefighter and mountain guide, James. Oh, this is spelled differently. Sub, subski. So they've got his name misspelled here. Anyways, we'll discuss the wide array of paranormal activity in the Columbia River Gorge, including the click-a-tat, ape-cat, Sasquatch, UFOs, portals, and small humanoids. Wind, wind surfing aliens. Don't forget them. Uh. They're bad. So apparently, uh, no, no wind resistance. Hobbits and ape-cats? What's an ape-cat? I don't know. Look it up. Click, click-a-tat. K-L-I-C-K-I-T-A-T. Click-a-tat, ape-cat. An ape-cat? You ever heard of that, Kyle? No, but I can guess what it is based on the name. Okay. I'm looking at the Columbia Community Connection. Strange panther-like creature. Prowls the Gorge. The Ebony Ape Cat. Oh, really? I, I... By Cole Goodwin. Realtors warn their clients that they may encounter an indescribable black creature while visiting remote properties in Snowden. A driver in Click-a-tat Canyon spots a hulking black beast with a long tail lurking near roadside homesteads at dawn. Rumors have swirled in Trout Lake for close to three decades about a family of sable-colored mutated cougars. These paranormal reports received at Margie's outdoor store all seem to be describing the same thing. A beast that is being called the Ebony Ape Cat. Okay, well, so this guy, maybe he's been looking into that, and he's an expert on that. So he's going to discuss, well, the Click-a-tat, Ape Cat, and Sasquatch, and UFOs, portals, and small humanoids. There you go. I don't know why, but the first thing that popped into my mind when I read that was soul. Yeah. I was looking for a way to... It's a possible soul sighting. Yes. He might have been spotted in Columbia Gorge at one point. Yes, well, he was certainly spotted in Montana. A small humanoid. Yes. For those that don't know, Kyle's son is soul. And is he seven yet? Yes, he's seven, yeah. He's seven. What a great age. Yeah, we had a lot of fun. I'm glad. Yeah, he was. He was a lot of fun. And his name is Soul? Soul, yes. Yep. I like it. He got to travel with us, stay up late with the boys, jamming out. Yep. You know? It was a lot of fun. He's a trip. A lot of fun. So, yeah. So, the tour will be based out of Columbia Gorge for at least three nights. So, yeah. Who knows what we might see now that we know there's options. Well, I'll be meeting this guy at the Disclosure Fest on the 10th and 11th. I believe it is 10th and 11th of November. So, it ought to be fun. I'll be out in Vegas. Is there any way you could get out there, Brad? And we take off for a couple of days and explore? I have to look. It sure sounds tempting. Well, we'll see what... We got a little time to think about it. But... So, yeah. I'd probably do that. And I mentioned to you guys earlier that... You know, I'm going to do a panel with Scott Walter and Tim Hogan. And Tim Hogan has got some really interesting things. You know, he's been over in Egypt. And, you know, he is the head of the International Order of the Templars. Right? You guys know Tim Hogan. You met him, right? Or you know of him, right? Yes. I haven't met him. Okay. So, he's a good man. Smart. Done some amazing research. Amazing traveling. And he's been in Egypt getting into places maybe even Ben can't get into. But anyways, he's supposed to be showing some photographs of things that have never been photographed before. So, I'm looking forward to seeing that. So, he's going to be up in... I know he's going to do a presentation with the boys at the Lodge in Nashville. Warren and Ryan. Right. So, I made... October. Yeah. In like three weeks. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm going to try to get up there for that. So, yeah. So, Montana. Awesome. I have to agree. And if I had any criticisms, nothing really other than the fact that it was when we did the spring, when the water... We came in there right after a couple of days of heavy rain. And... It was mid-June. Mid-June, yes. And that made it... I mean, it was flooding. They had... Yeah. It was pretty severe flooding last time. Record rains for two days, yeah. So, it was interesting to get that perspective, to see some of... You know, like the water going through the Clark Fork River there, Clark Fork Canyon, and by the dam. Not the Noxon Dam. The... Cabinet Gorge. Cabinet Gorge Dam. That, to me, I still got that vision in my head of that incredible pressure. And what I saw there, to me, was really an important... It was great, because it was almost how I was envisioning the origin of Boulder Park up in the Scablands, of course, you guys have seen. And how those boulders got transported from the Columbia Valley up there, north of there, down to be spread out thousands of them on the plateau. But I think we would have seen exactly something similar, is that you had this tremendous gush of water under enormous pressure coming under the ice sheet. And then, when that hits the cross at right angles to the Columbia, it just rips, just rips. And remember how the water was shooting up into that arc like that? So, you can picture the same thing, except now the wave is coming down all over the Waterville Plateau, charged with these gigantic 10, 100, 200, 300-ton boulders. Anyhow, that will be... We'll be back at the Channel Scablands in May, correct? Yes. Do we have any dates for the Columbia Gorge tour? Not yet. It's mid-September, same week, basically, as we just did Montana. Oh, okay. All right. It's like the 15th through the 21st, or 14th, 20th, yeah. Mid-September, 24. Well, that'll give me some time to look into this paranormal activity dimension of it. But, hey, if there was a place that could possibly be prone to that kind of thing, the Columbia Gorge is... I can still remember my very first impression of the Gorge when I was 19 years old and went through there in 1970. I was like... I almost felt like a character out of Gulliver's Travels. Like, I was in... What was the... What was the Land of the Giants? I mean, you guys know the story, right? You guys are literate enough to know the story of Jonathan Swift's Gulliver Travels. Yeah, I don't remember the name of the Land of the Giants. It was with... It was Brabim... B.R. Bo... Brabim... Brabimid... Something like that. Lilliput... The Lilliputians was the land where he went, and he was a giant. And then that was followed by going to the land where it was the Giants, and he was just this little diminutive thing. And that was kind of the feeling I got through going through the Columbia Gorge, is that everything was on such an outsized scale. And, of course, having no concept at that time of my life of what actually happened in the Gorge. But now that I do, yeah, because everything that happened there that left its imprint in the Gorge in that landscape was gigantic and outsized. Brobdingnag? Brobdingnag. B-R-O-B-D-I-N-G-N-A-G. Yeah, Brob... Brobdingnag. Yeah, excuse us for not remembering that. Yeah, sorry, Randall. Geez, I tell you, I'm just you guys... It's a letdown, you guys. I said I know you guys are literate. Negative attaboys. Yeah, yeah. It was full of the Brobdingnagians. And, of course... Who were apparently giants. They were colossal. Yes, they were colossal. And everything about the land was colossal. Yeah. And you get my point, my analogy here was that that's kind of how I felt. Like I was in this land of colossal things, of gigantic things. Yeah. And that, of course, was the first year that I went across the scab lands, but I don't remember anything about the scab lands. Too much at all. Maybe even drove across them at night. I don't remember. But I didn't learn about them until like five or six years later I learned about the channel scab lands. From the book on Atlantis by Cedric Leonard that we talked about. And he had a little chapter in there, and a section of the chapter was about the channel scab lands. And I think that book came out in 1978, and I probably read it about then. And then reading it, I go, okay, yeah, I've been out there. I remember going across that, but I didn't know anything about it. But that was my first awareness, I think, 1978, in reading that book. Atlantis, you can look it up. Cedric Leonard was the author. It's actually a pretty good book. And he gives a fairly coherent and scientific discussion of catastrophism in there. He has a chapter that's actually called The Catastrophe of 12,000 B.C. Or no, I'm sorry, The Catastrophe of 10,000 B.C., which would have made it around 12,000, which, of course, is close enough for government work. And, you know, in the 70s, you know, and really, when you look at the Younger Dryas, Lower Younger Dryas Boundary that has now been precisely dated to somewhat less than 12,900, actually 12,860 or something around there, give or take. And if you go back 40 or 50 years to the 1970s, well, being within a millennium certainly is going to be close enough. But, of course, what we now know, I think, is that what we're not looking, I think it's an oversimplification to think of it as just a singular catastrophe. I think we're looking at 3,000 years that saw a succession of catastrophes. And the end result is that when it was finally over at Meltwater Pulse 1B at 11,600, at that point, the planet had completely shifted gears from the Pleistocene to the Holocene. So, what is it? Quest for Atlantis by R. Cedric Leonard. Yeah, that was the book. And it's actually a pretty good book. It's a good introductory book. People are asking me, what are some introductory books? That's actually not a bad one. It's a little bit dated. But, hey, what was the publication date? Was it 78? Hmm. Doesn't matter. But it was around then. I could find out. And he had a chapter in there, like I said. Manor Books, 1979. 79. Oh, gosh, I was off. There goes my credibility. Yeah, your credibility is shot. It's shot, yeah. False claims. Fake news. Yeah. So, anyways, yeah, I wonder if it's still in print. No. It's not. We don't need print anymore. You got the internet. Yeah. It's, you can just download it on the. Amazon has one paperback used for $80. Oh, my God. Really? Really? Somebody scanned it for sure. Yeah. Probably. Well, I have a paperback. And, hey, if I signed it, could I get $180 for it? No, but I do, I have that original, Jesus, I better not talk about this. I've got some pretty amazing books that I do know are worth lots of money. Because they're rare out of print. And you know what I, it makes me think, okay, these books, some of these books are so interesting, so profound, and so important, and so relevant, but nobody's reading them. That's why they're not getting reprinted. Because nobody's reading them. What are they reading these days? What kind of BS? We do have some friends with an audio book company. We do, don't we? Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Darren and Graham. Yeah, that's the kind of book. This would be a good one for them to do. Yeah, it's the kind of book you want. Something that's not many people maybe are familiar with, but that has good information in it. It's nonfiction. Yep. Well, yeah, so that's probably pretty obscure and, you know, no demand for it. Yeah. Well, that was the first place that I ever remember hearing about the Missoula floods and the Channel Scabland. was that book that you're looking at right there. But, yeah, that was a good one. And the other one that I read right after that, I believe, was 1980, called The Secret of Atlantis by Otto Muck. And he was a German physicist, and he proposed that the Carolina Bays were caused by a fragmenting asteroid that outer layers of it spalled off, and all of these fragments laddered across the southeastern coastal plain. But the main chunk of asteroid went and hit into the Indian Ocean, and that was the basic thesis of his catastrophe that wiped out Atlantis. And the original object, I thought, was interesting in retrospect because he was speculating that it was six miles in diameter. And that's exactly the diameter of the KT object that took out the dinosaurs, and those papers were published in 1980. The same year or a year after, Otto Muck published his book, where he's speculating that Atlantis was destroyed by a cosmic impact into the Atlantic Ocean. Are you by any chance looking that up, Russ? Which one is it? Do you want me to look up? Muck is like muck with an umlaut, I think. Yes. M-U-C-K. Otto Muck. The Secret of Atlantis. The Secret. I'm trying to trace how we got back here. We started, you started talking about the Montana trip and what was not so great, and that we had the big rains in June, and yeah, I'm trying to retrace. How we got here. Well, the Channel Scablands, well, because if I hadn't read Cedric Leonard's book, it's possible we would have never done a tour to the Channel Scablands. Right? Well, there it is. I'm sure I would have come to it. Sooner or later. But yeah, I mean, that was my first exposure to the Channel Scablands, and then it became a topic of interest and further research. So for the next 20 years, I was researching it and learning everything I could about it, and in 1998, Bradley and I, with our friend Wilbur Adcock and Bill Phillips, made our first recon, scientifically-oriented recon, to the Channel Scablands. And that was great. And that was great. I have great memories about that first trip. Yeah, no doubt. Well, I'm wondering if you went across, if it was I-90 at that point when you went in 1970 or 71, right? You really wouldn't have seen hardly any Scablands. You would have been real close to Frenchman's Coulee, and you would have gone by Sprague Lake, but you really wouldn't have seen too much on I-90, other than going down into the Columbia River Gorge there, where you crossed it at that- Well, that's why I- The lake, that big lake might not even have been there behind the dam in 1970. Right, right. Yeah, which is probably why I don't have much memory of that. But I do have very distinct memory and impressions of the Columbia Gorge, because we came in. We came in driving from the east, so we drove, you know, down to Columbia Gorge, and then I remember we stopped and stayed in Portland for three or four days, and then we went up to Seattle, and then we went out to the Olympic Peninsula and camped out. Under a picnic table, you told us about that. Yes, under a picnic table. A miserable night spent under the- Wet and shivering under a picnic table. But it was worth it. Do you find anything on AutoMOOC, The Secret of Atlantis? I see it on- They also have it on Amazon. They're all used, paperback versions. This one was also published in 1979. Okay, yeah, so- By Pocket Books. The reviews are great. People are just like, this- Even today, this book is excellent. Aha. Geology, historical geology, climatology, and links to myths passed on by ancient civilizations. So yeah, it looks good. But I don't see- They don't seem to have a digital version or any new ones, so. My name's Mackenzie, and I started a GoFundMe for the adoptive mother of a nonverbal autistic child. The mother had lost her job because she wasn't able to find adequate care for this autistic child. So she really needed some help with living expenses, paying some back bills. So I launched a GoFundMe to help support them during this crisis. And we raised about $10,000 within just a couple of months. I think that the surprising thing was by telling a clear story and just like really being very clear about what we needed. We had some really generous donations from people who were really moved by the situation that this family was struggling with. GoFundMe is the world's number one fundraising platform trusted by over 200 million people. Start your GoFundMe today at GoFundMe.com. That's GoFundMe.com. GoFundMe.com. This podcast is supported by GoFundMe. Yeah, well, I thought it was both of those books back to back were really good books. I think I read the one I read the Cedric Leonard book first, followed by the Otto Mook book. And the Otto Mook book was the first place I really began to shift my thinking because up to that point, you know, I had met Richard Noon, who was writing 552000. And, you know, his whole scenario was pole shift based upon Charles Hapgood. And you guys, of course, are familiar with Charles Hapgood. Yeah. Right. Haven't you even done a Serpent Brothers podcast or something where you've talked about? Yes, we did an 11-part series on Path of the Bull. Yeah, Path of the Bull. Oh, well, okay then. I knew you guys had done something. So, yeah, I was introduced to that through this work of Richard Noon, who's no longer with us. And he was the one that was predicting that the world was going to end on May 5th of the year 2000. And, of course, last time I checked, that hadn't happened. But, anyways, his book was selling quite well up until May 5th of 2000. And, I don't know, it may have sold one copy since then. Oh, well, I just, anyone listening to this, they only had one left. I ordered it. So, you guys are screwed. I'm getting this book, Secret of Atlantis. Did you really? Yeah. Well, I mean, it claimed that there was only one copy left. You never know, but, like, I ordered it. It was $9. One copy in the world. Yeah, the last used paperback. There's one more copy. It's going to be $85. They have hardcovers. Yeah. Oh, if you guys want it, I'll sell it to you for $100. They have hardcovers, though. I just ordered the last paperback version they had. So, I'm definitely going to read this. Yeah, yeah. And so, that was the first place I ever heard of the Carolina Bays. And Cedric Leonard's book was the first I'd ever heard of the channel scabbling. So, in 1979, the three teams, including the Alvarez team that published their paper in 1980, were writing their papers, but it hadn't come out yet. So, a year after, Otto Mook's book, where he's proposing that a six-mile asteroid hit the Earth. Of course, it wouldn't have been six miles when it hit the Atlantic Ocean because so much of it had spalled off. And I believe, and when you read it, you can clarify this for me, if memory serves me correctly, he had the asteroid coming in from the northwest, right? So, that the path in of the asteroid was more or less parallel to the long axes of the Carolina Bays. Then, large sections of the outer layers of the asteroid spalled off, broke up, and those fragments, thousands and thousands of fragments, rained down over the coastal plain of the southeast, creating the Carolina Bays. The nucleus of the asteroid then plunged into the Atlantic Ocean. And he has found a feature on the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean that he believes was a remnant impact site. And this is how he theorizes the civilization of Atlantis was destroyed. Now, a year later, here comes the Alvarez team writing a major scientific paper, game-changing paper, Extraterrestrial Impact at the KT Boundary, where they're proposing a six-mile asteroid hit the Earth and caused the extinction of the dinosaurs. So, what I was getting at there is reading his, up to that point, I've been probably immersed in the idea of catastrophism since 74, 75, when I read, probably the first catastrophist I read was Emanuel Velikovsky, right? And you guys have probably read Velikovsky, right? And it was his Earth and upheaval that made the biggest impression on him. And that was the one that actually has stood the test of time. His documentation of the geology and paleontology and mythology of catastrophism was really a major milestone. Even though he went off into the fringe when he started talking about Mars and Venus being disgorged from Jupiter and all of this, and he earned the enmity of the astronomical and astrophysical communities who savaged his work, but his work really is two parts. One, the documentation of the evidence for catastrophism, both from the scientific realm as well as from the traditional and mythical realm. That was one thing. But then the other thing was his attempt to explain the catastrophism. What was the trigger? What was the cause? And that's where, you know, I still think his astrophysics went way off the rails. But nonetheless, a lot of people read Velikovsky and isn't, to my knowledge, isn't the Electric Universe kind of an outgrowth of Velikovskyism? Yeah, a bit, yeah. A bit, yeah. I thought there was some link there from decades back. Anyways, a lot of people were introduced to catastrophe and the links between geology and paleontology, archaeology and mythology, which to me was very valuable. But the point is, is that I guess I was trying to make was that following his work, he proposed a pole ship caused by a comet passing by the Earth or Mars or Venus. I've forgotten which now. And then I encountered, I met Richard Noon, who was writing the book on 55-2000, and it was a hodgepodge. Richard is no longer with us. He's the only person that I've ever heard of that he got depressed when the world didn't end on May 5th of the year 2000. And he developed a drinking problem and got dementia, and he's gone now. But he mainly played an important role, even though I read his book. It was a hodgepodge that just was not coherent. It was this and that. He took everything in the kitchen sink and threw it all together. But he was drawing very heavily on the work of Charles Hapgood. And what he was predicting was that May 5th of the year 2000, there was going to be a planetary alignment. And because the Antarctic ice cap had grown so big, it was causing an instability. And this planetary alignment was going to act on the crust of the Earth, and the Antarctic ice cap caused it to be unstable, and the crust would slip, a la Charles Hapgood. And this was supposed to happen on May 5th of the year 2000. Well, interestingly, I'm like, nah, really? A planetary alignment? So I had been studying some astronomy, and I had my ephemera back then. And so I started looking in there and finding that the planetary alignment he was invoking didn't seem to be me to be that huge of a deal. That there's been many planetary alignments without necessarily triggering a catastrophe. But what happened was, it's not long. Probably even before he got the book published, I went to a used library book sale. And there was a hard copy, a hardback copy of Path of the Pole for like a buck or something. So obviously, I snatched it, and then I read the book. And you know, he's got an extensive bibliography in there, like maybe over 300 references anyway. So I made a project over the next year or two to like hunt down as many of his references as I could. So this would have been between 78 and 8. So come to 79, I'm still thinking pole shift, pole shift. But the more I'm learning, the less plausible pole shift seems to be. And then, you know, Otto Mook's book comes out. I read that in 79, and now he's talking about asteroid impact. So now my thinking begins to shift in that direction. And then the following year, 1980, you know, there were three separate papers that came out. The most famous is the Alvarez paper. Walter and his father, Luis Alvarez, and their team who discovered the iridium layer at the KT boundary in Italy in 78 or 79. And they published their paper in 80. And they propose a six-mile asteroid, but they don't know where it is, other than the fact that somewhere on the Earth was impacted by a six-mile asteroid. Because based upon the concentrations of iridium, that I think by the time they had published their paper in 80, they had found the iridium layer in Denmark and New Zealand. So from that, they were able to infer that the entire planet had probably been blanketed in iridium dust. Well, and given the concentrations and mass of iridium dust they found, they extrapolated backwards of how much would this total iridium be if the whole planet had been blanketed roughly? Then how big of an asteroid would you need to have, to deliver that much iridium to Earth's atmosphere? And the result when they did their calculations was a six-mile asteroid. So I remember reading that paper and then thinking, well, that's Otto Mook was saying, to my knowledge, he didn't talk about iridium, but a six-mile asteroid. Of course, then as I began to learn more about the impact consequences at the KT boundary, I realized, well, if a six-mile asteroid had struck the Earth a mere 12,000 years ago or so, we probably wouldn't be here to talk about it. So something happened, but it wasn't that severe. I still kind of like both ideas. I mean, we went through Hapgood and, you know, Hapgood was in some cases at pains to say, like, this is not like a massively fast, catastrophic action, this pole shift. He thought that it would take thousands of years. He basically describes it near the end of the book as like, think of it like an accelerated tectonic movement. Yeah. You know, so he's like, it just moves faster. You'll have more earthquakes, more volcanoes. But it isn't like a catastrophic event that only takes a couple of days or weeks. But I have a question for you about, I thought one of the most compelling things was the presence of trees in, like, tundra and stuff that can't survive with the amount of sunlight that these northern latitudes get. How do you explain that? Like, there were forests up there that just doesn't get enough light with that being that high. How did they live there? Well, I thought that was really compelling in terms of the crust moving up there, at least that tectonic plate shifting north. Well, and then when you look at the maps of the distribution of the North American ice complex, the Laurentide and the Cordierin. Yes. You take the center of the ice mass, and it's pretty much Hudson Bay. Right. Yeah. Now, here you've got ice thousands of feet thick down to, like, the 48th, 47th parallel in America crossing the Canadian border. But then it more or less terminates at the Arctic Circle, and then you cross the Arctic Ocean, and you're in Siberia, and it was much more diminished ice mass over there. Yeah. And you apparently had this whole ecosystem, Beringia, that reached from Alaska across the Bering Straits into Siberia that was densely populated with megafauna. And, of course, for this large population of megafauna, you had to have plenty of biomass for them to consume to, you know, maintain the big herbivores like the mammoths and the woolly rhinos and all of the other animals that lived up there that then sustained the predators. So, I mean, there had to be a whole functioning, high-productive ecosystem during the Ice Age. Yeah. How do you explain that? I don't know. I still grapple with that. I feel like there's still a lot of elements of his, just the way he looked at it that are very compelling. And it's the data that he's analyzing. Now, his Hapgood's, all of his ideas, you know, maybe he's got some problems with these ideas, but I feel like it's still a compelling argument that a lot of these questions he has have not been answered. Yeah, I think the biggest, like the strongest argument against his general overall idea that I've seen people make is that, you know, that the tectonic movement was still in its infancy of being considered at the time that he was putting together the book. And so people were like, a lot of the stuff that he points out as being strange in the book can just be explained by a gradual, very slow tectonic shifting, right? The stuff about the massive ice sheets in southern India and Africa that, you know, he was pointing out, like, look, how do you get ice down here? Or, you know, or ice in areas where it seems to be, not only is it down in the south, but it's flowing in the wrong direction, right? It's coming from the wrong way. It starts in the south, it goes north. Well, if you actually take more or less the center of the ice mass, which is probably on the western side of Hudson Bay, where the ice is the thickest. Yeah, I'm talking about old ice, long gone, like old ice. I get that, right, yeah. Okay. But let's say you plant a pole there, then you draw a circle around it, the size of the Arctic circle around the present-day north pole, it pretty much encompasses the ice, the Laurentide, Pannoscandian, and Cordier and ice within that circle. Yeah. So what do you think? I mean, you think it still might be possible, like his ideas? Well, okay, so my thought, and again, this is not mature in the sense that I've really followed up the physics of it. It's really still kind of a speculative notion here, but I think it pretty much follows the laws of geophysics, which is this. You see, the question is, first of all, let's assume that there is some component of truth to the pole shift idea. If it's a 3,000-year process, though, is that going to be adequate to explain the catastrophic extinctions, the gigantic floods, the things that we've seen that are clearly on such a huge scale? You know, if it takes 3,000 years for that shift to occur, are we going to see floods on the scale of the channel scabbling? No, that's why we're saying we like both. They're not mutually exclusive, right? Like, could an impact actually trigger sort of the more rapid movement? Yeah. Okay, I see. Now I think we're getting on a feasible pathway here. Yeah. The question is, and this was my thought, maybe we're coming at it from the wrong direction. Maybe the movement of the poles, and in the case of the Hapgood model, it's not, let's be clear on it, it's not the entire mass of the Earth that shifted. Right. It's the crust, right? The crust will shift, yeah. Presumably, I'm guessing the asthenosphere is the boundary layer between the mantle and the lower crust. Is that feasible for the entire crust to shift? That's the question. The objections would say that the friction between the crust and the mantle, even though it's riding on the asthenosphere, is so huge that it would take a tremendous force to cause that to begin to move with respect to each other. But suppose that we say that a pole shift or a modified pole shift is not, and again, like you said, he's proposing these, first proposing these ideas in the 50s. So this is 20 years before plate tectonics, continental drift is even being accepted, right? Which wasn't really even considered dogma until the 1970s, okay? Yeah, and that's, so the path of the pole, which is the revised version of the original book, Earth's Shifting Crust, was published maybe in 69, something like that. So right, right there at the 70s. I think it was actually later than that. Maybe it was. I think it was. I think it was like 76. Maybe it was. I can look it up. Good. Okay, so what if we're looking at it from the wrong end? I think now here what Kyle, you just said, could an impact trigger it? Well, perhaps through a cascading series of secondary consequences. You have something, whether it's an impact or the sun or some combination thereof, causes a very rapid melting of the ice sheets. Okay, now we've had extensive discussions about the phenomena of isostatic adjustment of the Earth's crust, which has to be, to me, contrasted with the lateral movement, which is continental drift, isostatic, which is horizontal, basically, or more or less you could think of as tangent to the sphere of the Earth, whereas isostatic adjustment is the vertical, right? Well, I would think that they would, of necessity, have to be interconnected, that one could affect the other. Because if you think about the Earth spinning on its axis, the equatorial bulge is 13 miles greater, farther away from the center of Earth's mass than the pole. So that means that there is a distance, a vertical distance, that changes with latitude. Right. Okay, so now, what happens if you change the vertical distance by thousands of feet? Is it possible that there then has to be an accompanying adjustment in the latitudinal position of that crustal mass that is now, I mean, we know that Hudson Bay has raised up maybe as much as 2,000 feet. Well, what that means is that if it's in more or less equilibrium, you know, if we calculate the distance from the Earth's center of mass to its surface under the center of a mile-and-a-half-thick ice sheet, and then in a geological time frame, we instantaneously remove that ice sheet, now the land starts rebounding as it's moving away for thousands of feet from the Earth's center of mass. Now, is it possible that it is not in equilibrium anymore, and it would almost require an adjustment laterally of the Earth's crust to try to seek a new equilibrium? Because now it's like, you see what I'm trying to get with this? I do, yeah. So that the accelerated plate tectonics may be a consequence rather than the cause of the catastrophe that caused the destruction of the ice sheet and the gigantic melting and all of that. Sorry, the dates. Originally, so the original version. Oh, the original version. Okay. Earth's shifting crust was 1958. Path of the Pole was published. The revised version basically was published 1970. 70, okay. Yeah. That's what I thought. You get the idea when you're reading it that he's working on this revised version in 69, you know, 68, 69, but then a lot of the stuff is from the original version from 58, which he has decades of work into that. Right. And in between there, he worked on Maps of the Ancient Sea Kings, 1966 is when that was published. That was awesome, too. Oh, yeah, right. I'd forgotten about that. But, yeah, I've got an original beautiful copy of that book. Yeah, but so the other thing I was going to say is, you know, you're talking about the asthenosphere, and he has a whole section where he's talking about the friction and, like, there's a measurable, and this, again, this is probably some of its old science, but, yes, there's friction between the crust and the mantle and the asthenosphere, but that it's still, you can calculate the force necessary to get it moving. Uh-huh. And then one thing, I can't remember if he mentions this or not, I don't think he does, but, like, one way to overcome friction and make something move easily when it wouldn't otherwise is vibration. Right. Yeah. So if the Earth is being bombarded in a series of impacts over a long period and it sets up vibrations within the entire inner, you know, body of the Earth, then maybe it would make the crust easier to move, you know, to overcome the friction. So maybe it would be the same principle that, you know, when you have mass wasting events in mountains, landslides and things, or even the formation of submarine canyons. Right. And you have these turbidity currents, which create the turbidites, which are these huge, massive deposits that look like they were laid down by, you know, turbulent waters. Well, if you've got that, you've got the situation where two things can trigger a big landslide. One, excessive rainfall, which saturates the ground and makes it not so adhesive. And the other thing is seismic shaking. They can, either one working separately or together. Yeah. Well, it can, and certainly together, when you have saturated ground and then you have seismic shaking, yeah, it's almost inevitable that you're going to get large mass wasting. The sheer friction is going to be overcome. And you're going to have one massive section of land sliding over the other one. Is that called liquefaction? Is that, I'm thinking the right thing? Is that? Yeah. Yeah. Earthquakes. Yeah. Kind of. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Fluidity. And it's able to move and slide and slip easier in those few moments. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, can that happen on a grand scale, continental scale, not regional or localized? Yeah, and get that whole crust to move. I remember reading, I don't think it was one of those books that I did read Path of the Pole and was going through your episodes, the book report. Great job. And I want to finish that, all 11 episodes. But, yeah, it was like comparing, if the Earth was a basketball, then the lithosphere is, say, 7 to 27 miles thick is like a sheet of paper. Uh-huh. Yes. Covering the basketball. So, it's really, you know, super thin. Yeah. But just the forces, it's just so massive. But the Earth is massive itself. So, yeah, maybe it can be overcome. That's right. He actually spends a lot of time, he says that critics talk to him about the equatorial bulge, and he's like, they're saying, look, you can't just slide this stuff around because it has to slide over this bulge, and that would cause, you don't just have a friction problem, you have a shape issue. Yeah, that was cool because he talks about the tensile strength of the crust, too. So, if it's moving from a position at the pole down towards the equatorial bulge, it actually has to spread out. Yes. So, it's got, there's like tensile strength in the rock, but it's easy to just, much easier to pull it apart than the compression or what is it, the crush strength. Yeah, the crush strength of stone is high. Ridiculously high. The tensile strength is low. Yeah. So, the compression strength. It actually, yeah, compression strength, it takes, so it sort of sets up this. He's like, when it's moving away from the equator, the bulge, it makes mountains. Yes. It has to compress. When it's moving towards it, it makes these, you know, rift. Rift. Rift. Rift valleys, yeah. Yeah, and he shows these patterns of rift valleys and just like, you know, it's such a great book. It's so good. Now, is that like the stretch marks along the mid-Atlantic ridge? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool. Yep. Let me do it. Oh, go ahead. I was going to say, where are we on time? We may need to take a break here. We're almost an hour. Almost an hour. Yeah, it's break time, Randall. You want to take a break and come back? Yeah, I was going to do a share screen. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect time for a break then. We'll do a share screen after we come back. All right. We'll be right back, folks. Bye. Tired of your car insurance rate going up, even with a clean driving record? You're not alone. That's why there's Jerry, your proactive insurance assistant. Jerry compares rates side-by-side from over 50 top insurers and helps you switch with ease. Jerry even tracks market rates and alerts you when it's best to shop. No spam calls. No hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year. Switch with confidence. Download the Jerry app or visit jerry.ai slash libsyn today. That's j-e-r-r-y dot a-i slash l-i-b-s-y-n. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen, to Cosmographia. Cosmography 101 today. Still talking about Charles Hapgood and Path of the Pole, and I think maybe there's a question about ancient rock bands being evidence for possible evidence for crustal shifts. Yeah, one of the interesting things, I'll just sort of go through it real quick. Yeah, please do. Yeah, that Hapgood mentions in his book. He actually goes through it in detail that there are deep sediments that appear to have climatic bands, B-A-N-D-S, that are not aligned with our current axis. And he says that this is evidence that the crust has shifted, putting those climatic bands out of alignment with the current axis. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So ancient rock bands. Proof. Yeah, and we're not talking about the Grateful Dead or Deep Purple. Are those guys considered ancient already? Well, Mick Jagger is. Yeah, Mick Jagger. Okay, Mick Jagger, you're right. And Keith Richards, yeah, I would think what they qualify is. Is Mick Jagger from the Shifting Stones? You got to, listen, you got to hand it to those guys, especially Mick Jagger. I saw this thing where when they do a two-and-a-half-hour show and he doesn't stop dancing and prancing, it's like whatever, going up. But, you know, he runs long distance in order to get in shape and other things. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, you got to, look, I mean, who could have imagined that? Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. It is. It really is. And Keith Richards, you know, he actually has cleaned up his act. He even quit smoking a couple of years ago. Oh. The guy who was never seen without a cigarette, quit smoking. And he still sounds like death warmed over. Okay, Mike. Now he's got to have the cynic. I know. No, not cynic. I was admiring his perseverance, his survival. So here is my copy. Still, you know, still with the library. There we go. Oh, you stole it from a library. I didn't steal it. I told you it was on a library used book sale for a dollar. Okay. Probably one of the best dollars that I ever spent in my life. Open it up. Show me. After you put it on that shelf. Yeah. Show me it doesn't have a library card in there with a stamp from 1972. No. It does not. Randall's just like, I'm going to just set this here for a little bit. And while you're looking at thinking about their question, Mike, I have a question, too, about the shifting crust idea. How does the core play in all this? How does the iron core figure in all this? Because it's got to be shifting around, too. No. No. No. Yeah. The mantle and the core are not. They don't change. The crust itself just slides over the top of these. You know, like across the top of these things, they're sort of in a liquid state. The core itself is not, obviously. But they don't change. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Let's see if we can. It's rotating, though, at a different speed than the outer mantle around it, though? Have you guys heard that in the last 10, 15 years? Mm-hmm. It's not all moving, spinning, rotating together. Yeah, well, I know it's supposed to have, yeah, and it's supposed to have, like, flows. And Hapgood spent a lot of time talking about that, the movements of the amount of material. You know, when you're talking about trillions of tons of molten rock moving around in these, yeah, in these, like, mantle flows, you know. I don't remember all the details, but he does mention how much material that is. You've got these huge flows of rock, and that's running along underneath the crust. It's pushing on it as well. So, the other thing I would say before we get off the topic of Hapgood is, and we mentioned this in the break, is that people seem to get hung up on Hapgood's proposed mechanism and say, like, oh, this can't work. You know, that's been disproven, like, the idea that if there's ice at the poles and they get out of their imbalance, then that is what moves it. But that's just his proposed mechanism for how it might start. You know, maybe the mechanism doesn't end up working, but that doesn't mean that, I mean, all this evidence he's found that seems to show that the crust may have shifted or that it's at least different now than it, or it was different in the past than it is now, doesn't change. It's sort of like what they did with Bretts, you know, like, where they start demanding, like, well, where's the water? Yeah. Where are you going to get all this water from? It doesn't matter. You have evidence that the water is there. You can't say, well, if you can't tell me where the water came from, then it didn't, then there was no water here. Yeah, exactly. So, it's like Hapgood's mechanism. Yeah, Hapgood's mechanism may not work, but that doesn't mean that he didn't come, like, show a lot of evidence that this, these events may have taken place. Well, if you look in his bibliography, I was way off. It's 456 entries. Oh, yeah. In his bibliography. And so I used that. Man did his research. Man did his research, yeah. And when I got this book, one of the things I set out to do was to get, acquire as many of these references, track as many of them down as I possibly could. And I got a bunch of them. I probably got three quarters of them. And that is what is in, some of that is what's in those bound volumes. Because we didn't have PDFs and digital downloads in the 70s and 80s. So, it's easy to do research now. Back then, there was, you know, it could, it was a life and death matter. I mean, you could literally die on your way to the library. If you weren't, if you were not careful when you were jaywalking. Yeah. So, Randall could have very easily just been a skeleton in the corner of the library, folks. Covered in cobwebs. Surrounded by obscure tomes. Yes. His one hand stuck in the Xerox machine. It could have happened. There were times, I tell you, when I'm like, I'm getting in zombie mode there. And then, you know, oh, shit, that one got crooked. I got to redo it. Blah, blah, blah. Anyhow, I want to do a quick share screen here because, you know, let's see. Okay, let's try. Randall's day 45, water supplies low. Still copying book number six. All right. Are you guys seeing this? We are seeing this, yes. Oh, okay. Elimated and abandoned shorelines along Hudson Bay. Yeah. Ah, well, going way back to 1896, proofs of the rising of the land around Hudson Bay. The, just from Lake Huron, let's see, 1,300 miles from Lake Huron, the increase in elevation might there amount to 1,000 or 2,000 feet. So, anyways, this is where the maximum rise was, was Hudson Bay. Here's another view of these elevated shorelines. And this one here, I copied out of a journal many years ago. It would be good to get some original photographs. But you see, here's the bay down here. And then it kind of almost looks like it's sloping downward here, but it's actually sloping up. And one of the things that comes out when you look at these, the shorelines and the spacing is that there's greater spacing amongst the earlier ones. So that, and then as you're getting into the later ones, the spacing is much closer. What that is telling us is that the rate of isostatic adjustment was at its maximum immediately after the deglaciation. So, can I ask a question here? Of course. Does this mean that the whole lake was, is moving, I don't know, southward or whatever, away from these lines? Yeah. You know, in other words, there aren't corresponding lines on the other side? Yes, there are. There are? Yeah. So, the water is staying in a pocket and the land around it is lifting up? Is that what's happening? Pretty much. But also what is happening is that originally, after the deglaciation, the Hudson Bay was a giant freshwater sea that was not connected to the ocean. So, somewhere in that uplifting process. It drained. It drained, and it probably, it probably occurred because there was ice masses blocking the exit of Hudson Bay, maybe to the north. There was residual ice. What is it? The bay there, where I think they think most of the drainage occurred. I've forgotten the name, but anyways, there is one. Yeah, there is a, oh, what is it? There's a channel, a large channel up there that. Where Lake Agassi drained or Hudson Bay, or was it the same thing at that time? It was probably not the same thing. I can tell you in a second, I got it right here in front of me. If I can just scroll up. This was, let's see. Up into the Arctic Sea. The Hudson Strait. Okay. That's what it would have been. The Hudson Strait. It drained out through the Hudson Strait. And I could actually close this share screen. Here you can see Hudson Bay. And this was pretty much the center of the Laurentide Ice Sheet, which reached all the way here into Alberta. And actually, at the late glacial maximum, it sort of bumped up against the Cordier and Ice Sheet. The two of them merged temporarily right along here, along east of the Rocky Mountain front. But anyways, this is the straight right here. It's Hudson Strait. I couldn't remember, but that's what it is. Hudson Strait right here, which was considered the main drainage out. At the same time that the saltwater, because now Hudson Bay is connected to the ocean and it's saltwater. But in the immediate aftermath of the deglaciation, it was freshwater and not connected to the ocean. So somewhere, the amount of water increasing in the bay, the rise of sea level, and the diminishment of the ice all reached the point where whatever was separating Hudson Bay from the North Atlantic was gone. And they were able to establish this flow through here, which is Hudson Strait. And this area, I believe, if I recall, the models was still glaciated at that time. So the water wasn't flowing out through what they call the Northwest Passages. It was flowing pretty much out through Hudson Strait. And Lake Agassiz was all in this area and came down and Bradley and I visited the southern outlet of Lake Agassiz when we were carrying Graham across the country when he was researching magicians of the gods. And the outlet, this bump right here, is kind of a legacy of that outlet. When I was a kid, I would look at Minnesota maps and I would always wonder, why is there a big pimple here on the western boundary of Minnesota? I said, why didn't they just make a straight line here? Well, because the border is following the erosional channel. Let's zoom in and see if we can see it. The border is following Big Stone Lake. Exactly. The border is following the channel, the drainage channel of Lake Agassiz. That's what it's doing. And this was, yeah, you can see here now. Now, these, of course, are lakes. So they're not giving you, and here you can see the river flow in the channel. And again, here's classic underfit river. You see, so obviously this here that we're looking at, this flowing water right here, did not carve this channel here. This channel, this big old channel here, is a result of the catastrophic drainage of Lake Agassiz. The other drainage of Lake Agassiz, and interestingly, this drainage here dates based on the work of, oh, it'll come to me in a second, yeah, occurred right at the Younger Dryas boundary. And then if we zoom out and go up here to Canada, the other outlet is up here. Was that Teller, or he was farther north? Teller. That was Teller. Thank you, Brad. That was Teller. So here, actually, and we probably are going to need to do a recon trip up here at some point, because this is all scab land, and it's gigantic outrush of the catastrophic draining of Lake Agassiz north into the Arctic Ocean. And it's dated right at the lower Younger Dryas boundary. So, yeah, this is all scab land in here. Is there, you know, major evidence of gigantic water flows to the north? Now, that's interesting to think about, too, is that you're draining into the Arctic Ocean just after the ice sheets were, like, you know, two miles thick. Like, why weren't, why wasn't there ice in the Arctic? Like, how is it just draining? I don't know. That's just strange to think about. Yeah. But it's draining north into a place that should have been frozen solid. Mm-hmm. Well, of course, now the difference is that the Arctic is, as it says right here, it's an ocean. Yeah, it's not landlocked. I get it. However, however, during the Lake Glacial Maximum, this over here was a continuous landmass. So there was no warm Pacific water then, like there is now, flowing through Bering Strait right here. And all of this was blocked off with ice. So there was no flow here. So any flow into the Arctic Ocean would have been up through here, what they're calling the Norwegian Sea. I should go to Google Earth. Yeah, I mean, that outlet you're talking about is, you know, I mean, there's all those islands. It just seems like there would be miles of ice in there. It just seems like a weird place for it to be draining. Well, yeah, and I think obviously the Earth wasn't, I mean, the Arctic Ocean wasn't completely frozen over. Yeah. So if I zoom out, they've made some changes to Google Earth, which I'm still figuring out here. But I'm going to zoom out. Oh, we're not get oriented north. There we go. We can go up here to the drainage of, here we go. Let's see. So here you see the Mackenzie River. And again, here you can see the channel. So this was the channel conveying meltwater, and this is the modern Mackenzie River, which is not a trivial river. But, and you can see all of these other rivers that have created this anastomosing pattern on the floodplain. We can come down here, and you can see this is where the drainage into the Arctic Ocean was. So this would be a very interesting place to explore and get some drones. I don't know if anybody's studying ancient giant floods who has done much up here other than Teller and some of his colleagues, but their work certainly has not made it into any of the mainstream. So yeah, there was a major flow north through the Mackenzie into the Arctic Ocean. And of course- Yeah, it's a huge delta out there. Yeah, there's a huge delta. This is your delta here. Then you've got your coastal shelf, and look how wide it is. And most of this shelf would have been above water. And then over here, this is where it gets interesting. You know, you think of the Bering Land Bridge. I remember my first concept of the Bering Land Bridge was I looked at the maps and I thought, okay, there was a piece of land, you know, connecting these two here. But in reality, it was the larger part of this whole continental shelf that formed the lost ecosystem of Beringia. And then like we talked about in the first half of the podcast, this area was supporting a tremendous biomass, while the other side of the world over here was completely buried under thousands of feet of ice. So there's a lot of things that have yet to be explained and worked out in the history of this planet. So I will stop share for the moment. So let's see. What else? Oh, well, it's October. So within the next few weeks, Earth will be entering the Torrid Meteor Stream. Draconids. Well, the Draconids come first, but there's actually a little bit of an overlap between the Draconids and the Torrid's because the Draconids are a much more confined meteor stream and the Torrid's are a huge diffuse meteor stream. So we actually start going into the outer edges of the Torrid stream like the second or third week in October. But then we cross the midpoint of the stream like that first week in November. So we'll be doing our Cumberland tour. We'll be up there in the Cumberland tour on Halloween during the peak of the Torrid Meteor shower. So hopefully we'll catch some Torrid. The Torrid stream every once in a while catches some really spectacular fireballs. And probably those are just a mere remnant of a remnant of what would have occurred in millennia past when the Torrid Meteor Stream was a much younger stream. And of course, now, you know, in terms of what we were talking about, the Younger Dryas boundary, like William Napier, who's in the Comet Research Group, totally supported the idea that it could have been part of the Torrid Meteor Stream that the Earth encountered that was the Younger Dryas impact, which I find extremely interesting, particularly when you realize that how the important role mythologically that the Torrids would have played. And, you know, it brings into the whole issue of the symbolism and mythology of the bull. And you recall the imagery of Mithras slaying the bull, don't you? And if you look at the traditional depictions of Taurus the bull, the Pleiades, which is the radiant point, or very close to the radiant point of the Torrid family of meteor streams, is the shoulder of the bull. That can't just be a coincidence, can it? I remember you breaking down some old images of the bull being slain. Yeah, the Mithras stuff. There's all these symbols, or all these little characters all around, and I'm still wondering what it all means, Randall. Well, then I guess we should circle back to it. Because, you know, it's part of this whole complex of things that we've inherited from the past, whether it's, you know, the Mithraic tradition, which is rich, the Ellicinian mysteries, or the Masonic traditions, or the Kabiri, or the Templars. There's all of these various groups who, it seems like some of their primary purpose in existing was in the preservation and amplification and transmission of knowledge. Knowledge of certain kinds, and one of the vehicles for transmitting knowledge was certainly symbolism and mythology and so on. Maybe we could segue into the time we've got left here. Let's see. I'm going to close this. I mainly want to understand why the Scorpion is doing what it's doing. Oh. Yes. We've never gotten an answer to the Scorpion question. I do not understand that at all. The Scorpion question. Well, first of all... Behind the scenes episode. Okay, first of all, the Scorpion, you know, obviously, I think the place you have to look is, okay, astronomically, what's the significance of Scorpio and Sagittarius? And part of that is the fact that the galactic center right there sits right on the cusp of Sagittarius. And it's almost the traditional depictions of Sagittarius drawing his bow. The arrow almost points. Points, yeah. Right at the center of the galaxy. So, I think we need to be looking at some connection with the galactic center there. Maybe as a clue to... Okay. Yeah. More about yuds and seeds. Yuds and seeds, yes. Yeah. Yuds and seeds. Sure. We should look at that, and then we're probably going to need to wrap it up because I can see Brad's water has turned into wine. So, we don't have much time left. Cranberry juice, but okay. He had a cup of water, and then he picked up that same cup. It's now definitely wine. So. Well, okay. Cranberry juice, totally. Okay. So, these are some of the themes I would like to explore in, you know, upcoming episodes. This is a paper that came out actually way back in 2000, but it's still completely relevant. And it's, the title of the paper is this, Poseidon's Horses, Plate Tectonics, okay, relevant to our discussion, and Earthquake Storms, Plate Tectonics and Earthquake Storms in the Late Bronze Age, Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean. And so, that's what this is about, and it's quite interesting. It says here, a new study of earthquakes occurring in the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean region during the 20th century, utilizing data recorded since the invention of seismic tracking devices, shows that this area is crisscrossed with major fault lines, and that numerous temblors of magnitude 6.5, enough to destroy modern buildings, let alone those of antiquity, occur frequently. It can be demonstrated that such major earthquakes often occur in groups known as sequences or storms, in which one large quake is followed days, months, or even years later by others elsewhere on the now weakened fault line. When a map of the areas in the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean region affected, i.e. were shaken by 20th century A.D. earthquakes of magnitude 6.5 and greater, and within an intensity of 7 or greater, is overlaid on Robert Drew's map of sites destroyed in those same regions during the catastrophe near the end of the Late Bronze Age. It is readily apparent that all of these LBA, Late Bronze Age sites, lie within the affected high-shaking areas. How's that for interesting? And so now it gets into the geophysical evidence, and then what happened to the settlements and urban areas that were involved in this shaking. And then the other part of it is something that would be a great theme to follow up on, is the repeated correlations from archaic and ancient accounts of celestial visitations and earthquakes. So, in this one, it goes into some of the, you know, the archaeological evidence, which is very compelling. Mycenae, what happened there with these buildings that collapsed, it's very clear that there was a catastrophic destruction during the Late Bronze Age, which falls very close to the Taurus-Aries cusp in the Great Wheel, in the Great Year, usually dated at 42 to 4,300 years, which pretty much is right there on that transition from the age of Taurus into the age of Aries, which would have occurred, you know, using the classical sacred numbers would be 4320, 4,320. But then, what do you measure, what's the zero point you're measuring from? You know, just like the Younger Dryas falls very, very close to the halfway point within the Great Year, 12,960. But it's actually dated about one century earlier than that halfway point. But the halfway point, you've got to decide, well, where's the zero we're measuring from? You know, and I don't know the answer to that, and probably nobody else does either, other than you have to look at it within a band, within a margin of error. And I think that one of the messages that the ancient systems, that the ancient traditions of knowledge are trying to preserve for us, is that that Great Year model can actually be used as a predictive mechanism for knowing when the vulnerable phases are occurring. Not that it's going to occur on a specific date, like May 5th of the year 2000, but that it may occur within a window that might be several centuries on either side. Because after all, this is nature. This is not a, you know, it's not a human construct. It's not a machine in the sense that it's going to have precision timing any more than, you know, in a northern latitude, what's going to be the date of the first fall freeze, like where I grew up in Minnesota. Well, we can predict within a week and usually be 100% right that it's going to occur within this week, but not to the day and certainly not to the time, right? Well, so there's, yeah, there's some stuff to look at here. And then we can get into some symbolism, because so much of the symbolism is bound up in catastrophes. Um, so yeah, like there's a photograph of the city wall of Mycenaea included in its lower part and its foundation. And as its foundation, a natural fault scarp dipping here at 60 degrees or so, uh, even a very modest earthquake on this fault would cause the wall to tumble and render it ineffective for defense against attack later. And, uh, yeah, they're basically like, oh, I got to share this, uh, this is pretty incredible here. Let me, uh, enlarge this and then I'll share it. And you'll see that this is, uh, this is the kind of things that they're, that they're finding in these, okay. So what they're finding is the walls have toppled over and killed people and their skeletal remains are still there under the rubble. Yeah. This kind of puts it into perspective. Very interesting paper that we could, we can get into more as we come up here. And so these were the walls, but here's what was part of the walls. So the walls have just been pretty much demolished. Yeah. Those are the foundations of the walls. Yes. And then these, all these rocks, broken rocks strewn all around, they were the walls. Right. So here we go. Tilted Eastern and Western walls within building six. See the, the walls are tilted in. Yeah. You can see the tilt there. Mm-hmm. Yep. So this was a very interesting time. I mean, this bronze age collapse probably set history back at least a millennium, at least because all of the cultured civilizations around the Mediterranean pretty much all collapsed about the same time. So whatever happened, it was an impressive event. And there's evidence that suggests that, you know, okay, obviously here you've got, you know, earthquakes, swarms, or what the authors are calling storms, earthquake storms, but they're happening at the same time that there's stuff happening all over the world. So what triggered that 4,300 years ago? And then, of course, now we have the studies on Abu Hurrera, which you are, of course, are familiar with. And let's talk for a minute about, just for a second, we can get into it more as we're all reading them. And that is the papers that are not getting published, papers that are being co-authored by some of the finest, most knowledgeable minds on Earth about cosmically induced catastrophism, and they're being rejected by mainstream scientific press. And, you know, I talked to George Howard today, and he put it this way. He says, it's always been challenging to get these kind of catastrophist evidence into the mainstream journals, but we did it. However, now it's impossible. So why has it become impossible? I think that's an important question. So they're doing an end run, and I think this is amazing. They're going to open source all of their papers from now on. And we've got four papers. I'll get Laura to post links to them. So anybody who's interested can go in and download freely these four papers, and they're game-changing papers. Really, really good stuff. Yeah, I've got them. I've got the little synopses pulled up here. What do you got? One is microstructures and shocked courts linking nuclear airbursts and meteorite impacts. And then three Abu Huraira parts, papers, part one, part two, and part three. Shock fractured quartz grains support 12,800-year-old cosmic airbursts at the Younger Dryas onset. Paper two. Additional evidence supporting the catastrophic destruction of this prehistoric village by a cosmic airburst 12,800 years ago, and part three, comet airbursts triggering major climate change 12,800 years ago that initiated the transition to agriculture. Yeah, I mean, this is really, really interesting stuff that these guys are doing. And they can't get it published in the mainstream journals. And you look, if you look at the names, these people are some of the top in the world in their field. But they can't get published in the mainstream scientific press. I think that raises a whole host of questions that I suspected we were going to be seeing in the aftermath of when I saw the mainstream press and the mainstream archaeological response to Ancient Apocalypse, the Graham Hancock series that I was in in the last episode, taking the camera crew around some of the sites of the Great Floods in the Channel Scablands. And if you guys recall, we talked about that. And what I think is clearly evidence of a central script being disseminated amongst the archaeological profession, amongst the journalists, that this is what you're going to say. You're going to say that he's promoting white supremacy, that he's denigrating the role of ancient cultures, that he's a racist, that he's promoting conspiracy theories. All of that stuff kept recurring over and over again in all of the attacks. Now, I think that what they're doing is we're seeing perhaps something that's a part of that whole same process, because it looks like they're very scared that their whole contrived narrative is going to get exposed, especially if people start realizing that, wait a second, we're in a climate crisis. If we're in a climate crisis right now, then what was the Younger Dryas? If things are happening faster now than they've ever happened before, what about ice core evidence that shows 10 to 18 degrees Fahrenheit in five years or less? Wait a second. Then it's not, if that's true, then things can't be happening faster than they've ever happened before. And those kind of questions, I think it's about the fear that people are going to start looking and recognize how dynamic, we're just talking here about the Bronze Age collapse, okay? But the idea that not only was there earthquake storms, but there was also major climatic changes at that same century around the entire planet. So something was going on that not only involved the tectonic structure of the Earth itself, the lithosphere, it also involved the atmosphere and the climate. Well, what exactly happened? Was it volcanism? Was it impacts? What was it that caused these changes, massive droughts found around the world that caused the collapse of the Chimert civilization, the early classical Mayan? We find the imprint of this Bronze Age collapse all over the planet. Well, see, here's the thing. If you're going to believe so much that we're now facing an impending human-caused climate doom, if you're going out and gluing yourselves to the interstates, it means that people, there's a lot of people who are pretty far invested in this narrative. And you can't have the people who are on the margins, who are sitting on the fence, asking questions like this. Well, if we're in a climate crisis now, what was the Bronze Age collapse? What was the Bronze Age catastrophe? What was the Younger Dryas catastrophe? What were the other four or five climate catastrophes that we can now document just in the Holocene? See, those are questions that shouldn't be asked. And I think that somewhere in this mix, there is a political agenda. I mean, why? Because this is really solid, important, interesting, valuable science that these guys are doing. You know, Dr. Moore, James Kennett, Napier, LeCompte. Remember LeCompte was, he came on the Joe Rogan show with the Great Debate with Michael Shermer. Remember Michael LeCompte, I mean, Malcolm LeCompte was our guy. He came on in our corner. And then you guys weren't there. Brad, were you there with the scientific roundtable a few years ago, organized by George Howard? Yeah, down in Wilmington and Graham. Yeah, you were there. Yeah. Yeah, so you met Malcolm, you met Chris Moore. Chris, yeah. Yeah, you met Chris, these guys. And the fact that these... And Tony Zamora was there, yeah. Tony Zamora was there. The fact that these guys who are heavyweights in their field can't get published. To me, that... I mean, what's going on there? Didn't they tell us at the time, though, that they were... One of the blockages was they had to pay to get published? That there was, like, costing thousands of dollars? Well, yeah. So there's that. And lots of times, your university will pay for that. But it was, like, it was kind of up to these individuals or, you know, that were part of the comet research group. And they were having to pay. And that was, you know, like their first way of keeping them from getting their work out. And now it's just like, okay, well, it's just totally shut off. And it just outwardly seems that politics is running science here, controlling what actually is the new terms of evidence that comes out as dictated by politics. I think you're exactly right, Brad. And as distasteful as that is to me, because I hate politics, it's what's going on now. But there are strategies, because I think in the end, they're going to lose, because they don't have reality and truth on their side. So they have to, I think they know on some level instinctively that they've built a house of cards. And it encompasses so many different things now, all aspects of life in civilized world today that, and they even said in one of the, I should quote this, but I won't do it now, in one of those hit pieces on Graham, and it might have been Dibble who said it, if you believe Graham Hancock's conspiracy theories about ancient catastrophism, well, you might believe that the vap in that is phony. You might believe that 9-11 was a conspiracy theory. I mean, it literally said that. If you believe this, yes, you would believe that doctors would lie to you. You might even believe, and this is almost an exact quote, you might even believe that politicians would lie to you. No, seriously. Oh, my God. People actually believe that? That's crazy. That's a huge conspiracy. I mean, think about that, though. So they've got to attack ancient apocalypse. And if you read any of the attacks, there was no substance to any of them. There was no effort to actually refute the actual evidence. It was just a hit piece against Graham. So, yeah, and now we, well, look, now they're pulling the thing on Russell Bram, not to get off on that conversation, but look what he's been doing the last couple of years. He's got six and a half million viewers now, and he's talking about the bullshit. The bullshit that's coming out of Washington and the rest of the, you know, the governments. And so, yeah, I mean, a lot of people actually predicted this, saying they're going to come after Russell. At some point, his audience is going to grow to the point that they're going to come after him. And that's the first person Tucker Carlson talked to after he got ousted from Fox. And those were some really powerful interviews. I watched those. With Russell Bram. Yeah. Yeah, I haven't seen those, but I bet they were. Yeah, I mean, he wasn't afraid to speak out. And this is the thing that can't be allowed now. People are not supposed to speak out and exercise their first amendment. And it's spilling over into everything. That's why we're sitting here talking about having to open source these papers that have been authored by the Comet Research Group, because they cannot get mainstream scientific press to publish them. And they've tried. So if you want to support, one way to do it is to check out the papers. The links will be, I guess, in the show notes. And spread them around. Share them with your friends. But also, you can support the Comet Research Group by donating. Yep. Brothers of the Serpent podcast is, we're monthly donators. The Comet Research Group, you can go to their website, CometResearchGroup.org, slash donate. Simple website. Great website. They take PayPal. So that really helps. That's the point. They have to pay. Yeah. And a lot of this research is being done out of their pockets. It's not university funded. It's like, it's rogue science at this point, which is crazy. I know. Yes, that's right. Yeah. So these guys, like, you know, they came to the Cosmic Summit. People like George Howard trying to connect, you know, sort of this podcasting world to these scientists doing really good work. And all of you people out there who support podcasts, support those guys. Yeah, support these guys, because they're doing the stuff we talk about. I mean, they're doing the work. And we've gotten to know a lot of them over the years. And so we're kind of going to, anything that they do, they discover, we're going to kind of be on the first tier of getting that information that we then would share on our podcasts and all the things that we're doing. Um, so yes, uh, definitely. And, and I got a personal thank you from Alan West. Uh, he said that somebody heard me talking about Comet Research Group. I got to get the details from him on Joe Rogan and donated, uh, I think he said it was one and a half million dollars. Oh my God. That's great. That's awesome. Yeah. So they're going to, they've got some plans in the works for that. And we will be, yeah, we'll have front row seats. Well, I've got, I've got a scenario coming up where I, you know, I've been working on it. Brad kind of knows where I'm going with it, but, um, I think we can, at this point now we can, we can make a pretty strong case of where the impact occurred. All right. Uh, are we doing that on episode 102? Yeah. Can we do that on episode 102? Come on, man. Why are you holding out on us? Crank it out. Well, yeah. I mean, it, whether it's 102 or 103, or maybe it'll be 108. I don't know. But it'll, it'll be. I see. All right. Well, wait a second. Hold on. 108 it is. I got, I got to be careful about what I say we're going to talk about because Brad is monitoring everything I say. Multiple times. Yeah. I don't know if you know this, Randall, but it's being recorded. Like we have evidence. Yeah. We can play you clips of you saying stuff. I know. I know. That's. Yes. Don't. I feel the pressure. I do. I like, okay, gosh, darn it. I can't. But no, it's one of the things that I think is right up there with the moon stuff. Mike obviously really wants it to happen as well. Look at him. Well, you can tell by the way he's trembling. And at that round table in Wilmington, Randall did show it to the common research scientists that were there. But they weren't ready for it yet. They weren't. But yeah, it's been disseminated slightly. Yeah. Initially. Initially. Yeah. And we do have, yeah, we do have it on record, don't we? And that was recorded also. Brad. Brad follows the rules. I was there. Yeah. Laid down by Tenacious D. Slip that on switch. Randall Talks flip on the on switch. Last thing. Record everything. Last thing. I'll just remind everyone that Sacred Geometry International website is selling my stuff and it's a total fraud. And he's trying to ride on our coattails. As our numbers go up, he's trying to optimize so that he can ride right along on our coattails and embezzle as much money as he can out of my work before the hammer drops. But if anybody here is interested in helping this, just spread the word that Sacred Geometry International is a fraudulent website, fraudulently selling my work. And it has been served with two cease and desist letters, which he has ignored and has had the website shut down once. And he relocated it to Malaysia, where he believes he'll be able to get away forever and ever by profiting off of my work. So I'm just bringing this up because he has sort of ramped up his game again recently as as we're getting more and more attention and we're getting greater numbers of people following what we're doing. He's trying to milk it. So I want people to know about that and and and to really to spread the word that Sacred Geometry International is a fraudulent website in terms of selling my work, which is no connection with Randall. Randall, no, no, no remuneration, no remuneration. There it is. No payment to Randall from what is brought in through that website at all. And in about five years at this point, close to five years since I've received a penny. And if you knew this guy, you would not want to give him a penny of your money. So Randall Carlson dot com Randall Carlson dot com is the place to go. So, yeah, thanks. All right, guys. Certainly enjoyed it. You know, I was going to say last thing. Yeah. You're talking about the Bronze Age collapse and then all the climate stuff. And, of course, the younger dress you have. You've said this quote on the podcast before. I don't remember who said it was something like civilization. Civilization exists that geological consent subject to change. Civilization exists by geological consent subject to change without notice. That's it. Yeah. That was the great historian Will Durant. There you go. Who wrote what was an 11 volume like history of civilization. Right. So you said that. Yeah. You were saying that the that Bronze Age collapse set civilization back maybe a thousand years. Yeah. And it was maybe a swarm of earthquakes, you know, something, something happened. I mean, there you go. Consent was revoked. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Yeah. All right. Thanks, guys. Good show, guys. Yeah. Good night. Good night. Thanks, gentlemen. Good night.