Free Plus Show: Dr. Gregory L. Little | Origins Of The Gods, Sentient Plasma, & Shamanic Contact

Hey there, free first-hour listeners. It is that time again. I try to remember at the end of every month to pull a full two-hour plus show from the archive and put it in the free feed for you. This is really just my way of giving you a taste of what you would get as a plus member, so if the beginning of this episode sounds familiar, jump 50 minutes in and the rest will be all new to you, which of course goes for any show you liked in the archive once you jump over. And I'm sure there's no shortage of old guests you'd like to hear an extra hour from. They're sitting there waiting for you. The archive goes back to 2010. Also know that we made a big upgrade to the plus system, and now when you sign up, we send you a welcome email with an RSS feed link that is unique to you. All you gotta do is copy it and paste it in whatever app you use to listen to shows, and boom, you're in. No need to mess with a username and password again if you don't want to, but if you do, log into thehighersidechats.com. You see the category display. We have a good search-by-topic feature. You can rate the shows and check out the comments section, which is pretty much the best discussion of THC episodes anywhere, and you get access to the forum, too. It really is a private community that is unburdened by the censorship platforms, bots, and even just the general squawking masses that it's nice to get a break from once in a while. And you can use it like that if you want. But I know that most people just want a quick and easy way to listen to the plus show the same way they listen to the free show without any hassle, and now with that personalized RSS feed, it really can't be any easier. As always, the only place the RSS feed doesn't work is Spotify, and if you want to get plus and still use Spotify, you can. You just gotta sign up through the Patreon. The links are right there in the show notes. It's eight bucks a month for five two-hour shows. Always ad-free and action-packed. Enjoy this one on me, and maybe I'll see you on the other side. In the 1930s, President Franklin Delano Roosevelt addressed the nation through a series of radio broadcasts known as the Fireside Chats. His aim was to reassure the common man that our society would recover from its troubled times. Well, we're far from 1930, and I deal with a different kind of fire. For a new era of worldly frustration, we offer a fresh conversation. I'm Greg Carlwood, and these are the Fireside Chats. Rock me like a hurricane, people. From sunny San Diego, I'm Greg Carlwood. And it's a little crazy how much mystery remains in life when we watch the same sitcoms over and over and sedate ourselves with the endless digital scroll of the smartphone. We somehow take for granted how much of the great unknown is left, and rarely let our curiosity drive our nearly never-ending opportunities for adventure. It's easy to feel like it's all been done, but when we only see 5% of the electromagnetic spectrum, and people are having paranormal experiences of a vast variety, there's still a lot more mystery left on the table. Disc-shaped, physics-defying crafts, orbs of light, fairies, elementals, angels, mothmen, little green guys, thunderbirds, skinwalkers, and more. Oh my. And although people have pondered for years what the real meat of these experiences might be, we haven't had a great deal of fresh perspectives on it lately. That is, until the latest book by the great Dr. Gregory L. Little and Andrew Collins, Origins of the Gods, Kiesem Cave, Skinwalkers, and Contact with Transdimensional Beings. It connects all the right dots, and I'm sure you're going to love it. As for Dr. Little, he has a master's degree in experimental psychology and a doctorate in counseling and educational psychology from Memphis State University. He's the author or co-author of over 30 books and 40 treatment workbooks. He's been here twice before, first talking about another book he co-authored with Andrew Collins, titled Denisovan Origins, Hybrid Humans, Gobekli Tepe, and the Genesis of the Giants of Ancient America. And then again last year, talking about the incredible Edgar Cayce, his uncanny diagnostic accuracy, and the Atlantis readings. It's a real pleasure to have him back and break open the case made in Origins of the Gods, so let's do it. The North American Mound Master, Edgar Cayce, educator and paranormal puzzle solver, the Greg Superior. How you doing, man? Welcome back. Holy cow, what an introduction. You even called me great. That's, uh, I need to get a copy of this to play it for my wife over and over and over. Particularly when she goes to bed, I just want to play it and let her hear it over and over that I'm so great. Thank you so much. A pleasure to be here. And I don't know how many other people you've had three times. I was actually kind of surprised, but I know this book is different and I know you want to talk about it. And I will say this, that back in 1984, in a book that I published then called The Archetype Experience, I said then that I thought plasmas and Earth-based energies were the key to all of it. And Andrew actually wrote some things back at the exact same time, essentially saying the same thing. So we both were on the same trail this whole time. I have been into UFOs since the 1970s. It's not what I'm best known for. But anyway, it's a pleasure being here and we'll see where it goes, Greg. And you have my deepest sympathy, new child, and having work done and all that. And I know that it's a hectic time for you. Yeah, it is a little crazy over here. I don't have my usual recording environment, but the show must go on. And I appreciate the kind words. If you keep writing such great books, of course I'm going to have to ask you to come back more than once. And so as you might remember, and for the listeners' context, last year I contacted you because in our first interview we touched on your books, Grand Illusions, the spectral reality underlying sexual UFO abductions, crashed saucers, afterlife experiences, sacred ancient ritual sites, and other enigmas, as well as the archetype experience resolving the UFO mystery and the riddle of biblical prophecy using Jung's concept of synchronicity. And that brief section was great. And I really thought your work, Into the Paranormal, deserved its own interview. And you said, well, we have this new book coming out down the road called Origins of the Gods, and that would be a better time to get into it. So we talked about the incredible Edgar Cayce and Atlantis instead. And I'm glad we did because there was a lot more meat on those bones than I realized. And it was a lot of fun to hear about your personal hunt for Atlantis. But we are officially down the road now, and the new book is out, and this is going to be a lot of fun. You said the magic word right up front, and that is plasma. And that's something that I think piques interest around here. So let's start by giving the people an overview of your half of the book. How would you set this up? All right. Well, I can give a brief overview of the half of the book that I wrote. And I will say this. Andrew and I both had to cut out massive, massive sections. My portion of the book is a little over 50,000 words. Andrew's is about 55,000 words. That doesn't include references and notes and index and so on. And we were told to keep it at 100,000. And we both wrote about 100,000 words. So there's a lot that was not put in there that we may save and put out at a later date. But right now, we're both kind of busy. But anyway, the very beginning of the book, if you look at the very beginning of it, where I talked about this 30-some-year quest that I've been on, in the start of it, my wife and I went to a place in Utah called Hovenweep. And Hovenweep is an old Anazazi, not really a good term Anazazi is. It should be the ancient Puebloan people. But we went to this site called Hovenweep, which is an old Puebloan site. And we had been there 30-some years ago. But that's how this new book started. We revisited that site and tried to make more sense out of what I was picking up back in the 1980s, when we very first visited it. To some extent, the book is about trying to explain the entire UFO phenomenon, the paranormal, all the aspects of the paranormal. When I talk about the UFO phenomenon and the paranormal, I'm also talking about the contactees, mainly the people in the 1950s and 60s who claimed contact with aliens and flying saucers. The abductees, which is kind of a modern, updated version of it. Whitley-Strieber would be a really good example of the abductees. Loads of others, though. There's loads and loads of abductees. And then you have the UFO reports where people see odd and unusual globes of light. Sometimes there's something in those globes of light. And all that's part of this phenomenon. So what Andrew and I wanted to do was to try and explain the entire thing. And there is no one explanation for everything. For example, some of the more recent things going on, such as the Tic Tacs, a lot of this Navy stuff, it's probably not what it appears to be. It's probably something else entirely. I do mention that in my part, I did have to cut out a great deal of it. So some of the really deep information about all that is not in the book. I worked for the Office of Naval Research back in the early 1970s, 72, 73, and 74, and had a chance to go to the Pensacola Office of Naval Research facility back then and talk to some of their researchers. And I was young at the time. What I found was that they were engaged in a lot of what we call, I wonder what if research, which is like, I wonder what will happen if we do this. And I think a lot of what is going on goes back to, I wonder what if research, and maybe we'll get some time here to discuss some of that. But that's the kind of thing that will probably tick off quite a few people. Secondly, in this field of trying to explain the paranormal, you have all these ancient reports like ancient aliens. So I want to immediately address that. Andrew, of course, is on the Ancient Aliens show pretty often, almost every episode. And Eric Vondonikin, who many consider the father of the Ancient Aliens theory, Eric Vondonikin wrote the introduction of this book. He actually did read it. He likes the content in it, and he likes the direction it goes. So what I'll do right now is acknowledge that it is very, very likely that Earth, in fact, has been visited by extraterrestrials probably many times. However, in saying that, I have to immediately add to that, that what people are seeing in the skies today are probably not alien craft in that they're extraterrestrial beings. There is clearly something going on, but it's probably not alien craft. So the real proof of ancient aliens doesn't come from the show, doesn't come from the people that pretty much are the proponents of it, but it comes from the mainstream skeptics. And probably the most famous and most important skeptic of all time, Carl Sagan, astronomer Carl Sagan, Carl Sagan in 1963 published an article in a peer-reviewed journal called Space and Science. And in that journal, in the article, he calculated the odds that there are aliens and advanced civilizations throughout the universe. And he figured just as virtually all other astronomers that have done this have calculated that it's definite. There is life out there. Some of it is probably far more advanced than us. Some of it's less advanced. And then he calculated the odds of them actually ever visiting the Earth. In his article is a rather astonishing calculation and statement. He is certain that Earth was certain. He's dead now, of course. But Carl Sagan was certain that Earth has been visited in the ancient past. And he calculated the number of visits that these aliens made to Earth at roughly 10,000, 10,000 times that they visited or monitored what's going on in Earth, basically over the last 2 million years. He said they really would have focused on the last 2 million years. So if you add all that up, and if you do a little bit of division there, you've got an average of one alien visit every 200 years. That's what it comes out to. Now, what he said in this article was that initially they wouldn't have visited very often. But when humans started appearing, and at the end of the last ice age, they would have increased their visits pretty quickly. And he said the place to really look for the evidence of this is like go to ancient Baalbek, go to Lebanon, ancient Baalbek, or go to the area around Iraq, to ancient Mesopotamia. Now, the greatest skeptic of all time wrote that back in 1963. He didn't start the whole idea of ancient aliens. But I'll tell you what, when you've got Carl Sagan on your side in this, you've got somebody who really, everybody respected. Even the skeptics respect Sagan. So do all the, what you might want to call true believers. Everybody respected Sagan. But Sagan did not believe the modern UFO phenomenon were these aliens visiting. There was something else going on there. And that something else is what Andrew and I really wanted to get to in the book. So that's kind of my summary of what it's about without getting into the specifics. And I'll let you guide me into that if you want to. Sure, sure. I love it. And we're already 15 minutes in. I know you are one of those guests who can definitely talk at length. And we already mentioned the magic word of plasma. And I was going to slowly build up. But let's just dive into it. Because there's so much stuff on the back end. Yeah. That is really, really interesting. So over the course of doing this show for 10 years, we've done many episodes comparing and contrasting aliens and demons, aliens and fairy folklore, angelic visitations and UFOs, the paranormal and shamanism, the overlaps between the occult and what people are said to be able to do with a pentagram and grimoires and then also like abductees. So there is a lot of weird overlaps in that soup that we have talked about many times as to why they are similar. And we might have other stuff going on too, like you mentioned. But how might plasma be the connective tissue between all these things, these weird experiences people have in the general paranormal soup? Okay. So very good question. You really set that up well. I love that. I love the way you worded all those things and brought them all in. So they all come from a common denominator. All of the phenomena you discussed, everything from the angels to fairies and demons and all that, all of those come from the same source, but they're not all the same thing per se. They're not all the same manifestation. So here's the thing. So for literally hundreds of thousands of years, shaman have been engaged in performing rituals to make these other forces manifest and to like bring them into the open with the hopes that they can manipulate them or control them somehow or get something out of it, maybe health or whatever. So my big interest in this was to go into the Native American beliefs about it, the really ancient Native American beliefs. And that is the way that I like to really get into the whole idea of plasma and what's going on. So in the book, I call these plasma forms time, T-I-I-M-E. Andrew calls the same thing end beings. He takes it a step further. So we'll talk about end beings last, but let me explain what time stands for. Again, it's T-I-I-M-E. It stands for transient intrusions of intelligent manifesting energy, transient intrusions of intelligent manifesting energy. So they're always transient. So let's look at a couple of very strange things. You have contactees in the 1950s and 60s who claim that a flying saucer landed maybe in their backyard, maybe on their farmland. And they walked out. And sometimes it's a beautiful Nordic woman walks out. Sometimes it's some sort of an alien walks out, gives them the message. But they don't just sit there. The percipient or the person who is interacting with whatever this force is, they don't run into the house and get a bunch of people and call the neighbors, you know, and everybody comes over and they bang on the sides of the UFO. No, it's always very temporary. It's very transient. It doesn't last very long. And it's only for the percipient. It's only for those few people that are in the immediate vicinity. So it doesn't last long. It is an intrusion because it's suddenly appearing in our physical reality, our four-dimensional reality, with the fourth dimension being time, of course, in this sense. So it's intruding into our reality and into our four dimensions, but only for a brief period of time. It does have intelligence. We know that it interacts. Loads of research by mainstream scientists tell us that these, whatever they are, whatever these entities are, they have a form of intelligence. They have some sentience to them. They have some sort of thought process. We can't always understand their motives. And that's something we can get into. What exactly are they after or what are they doing? But they have an intelligence. So it's transient intrusions of intelligent manifesting energy. So they are manifesting in our physical reality and they're made out of energy. The type of energy that we believe they are are plasmas. Now, back in the 1950s and 1960s, when plasma was kind of a dirty word in the UFO field, all that was known about plasmas at that time, that it was just a ball of superheated gas. That's all they knew about it at the time. Now, physicists knew there was a lot of exotic aspects to plasma, but they really didn't have a way of studying it then. So back in the 60s, when some skeptics said, oh, we believe UFOs are plasmas, like ball lightning, that's what people are seeing. That actually was considered a really negative thing in the UFO field. The people that speculated about plasmas, Philip Klass and some others, were kind of blackballed in the field. People didn't like them as skeptics. So plasma became a dirty word. Today, we know a great deal more about plasmas. And so let me just get straight into this. Back in 2007, not too many years ago, there were six physicists, mainstream physicists, who published an article in a peer-reviewed physics journal called the Journal of New Physics. And in this article, they stated that plasmas have all of the characteristics of being alive. They appear to have some sort of intelligence. They appear to interact with us. They appear to multiply, or that is to reproduce. They have aspects of evolution in them. And here's what they observed in the lab to come to these conclusions. Number one, when the plasma forms. Now, you have to put a whole bunch of energy, and they've used lasers to do this, a whole bunch of energy into a small space to create this ball of superheated gas. And what happens there is that it becomes so energetic that electrons are torn off of the atoms in the gas, and the electrons begin swirling. And then there is an electromagnetic field, almost like a shield or a cell wall. You know, our body's cells all have an exterior wall, and on the interior of that cell wall is liquid. Usually, it's like salt water. The exterior wall of a human cell is made out of basically fat, almost like a soap bubble. So when a plasma forms, it forms in a very similar way. It has this exterior shell that forms around it, a lot like a cell does in a human being. And then they observed, the physicists observed in the laboratory, that within the center nucleus that was forming in the plasmas, what they saw was what looked just like human DNA, a double helix forming. Now, the way to think of a double helix, imagine a wooden ladder. And then imagine that you can twist this wooden ladder down. That's a double helix. The ladder has rungs on it, and it has sides to it. Well, the rungs in human DNA are made out of amino acids. And that is literally what makes us us. But within the plasma, they observed something very similar happening. And then they watched this double helix split, just like it does in human DNA, and it reproduced itself and created a second plasma. And they saw those split and create more plasmas, just like human reproduction in cells occurs. They saw what they interpreted as evolution in that some of these newly formed plasmas were very weak. And whatever that structure was on the interior of it, that structure would look weak in some, and then they would literally disintegrate and fall apart. That is, cease to be anymore. So that is where they saw evolution coming into it. They could interact with the plasmas, and they literally said in the article, if we could sustain these long enough, they would probably interact with us and be almost like life as we know it today. So that is mainstream physicists saying this. Physicists back many, many years ago, probably a hundred years ago, suspected that plasmas were, in fact, some sort of a life form. So they're found all over the Earth. Plasma is the main building block of the entire universe. There's more plasma than anything else out there. It forms naturally on Earth, and we can create it. And so the question is, then how does plasma fit into this? Plasmas, and that's where I go back to the Native American stuff. So do you want me to go ahead and go there, or should I? What do you want me to do? Just keep going? Well, you were going to tell us why Andrew Collins uses the term N-beans, but definitely get into the shaman stuff, because we know that was a great breakdown of what's been seen in the lab with plasmas. But yeah, tell us about N-beans and then how they occur naturally to where shamans interacted with them. Okay, well, Andrew's half of the book goes very deeply into physics, and particularly the last four or five chapters. He talks a lot about things like the Ark of the Covenant. He talks a lot about the light of God, what people were interacting with. And in essence, he believes that the Ark of the Covenant was a plasma generator, a way to interact with some much deeper force in the universe, something that is far more profound. He calls, in his case, the manifesting time beings that I use. He's calling them N-beings. And the word N means, the letter N means that there could be any number of them. We don't have a good term for them other than that, but they simply form from this energy, and they form for a purpose. He goes into quantum mechanics rather deeply, into non-causal physics. There's some really deep stuff in this, and I consider what Andrew wrote about the physics portion of this book to be some of the most brilliant writing I have ever seen anybody do. And I've talked to other people now that have read this and said they agree. They think it's just incredible. So what Andrew wrote is far more impressive than anything I wrote. And I'd leave it to him to really get into the quantum mechanics on it, because I know my limits, and that's pretty much pushing me right up to the limit to where I don't know anything else beyond it. But he calls them N-beings, and he says that they interact with us the same way that I say it, and that is when you are in a sacred space, doesn't matter even if it's just in your bed and something manifests, whatever these N-beings are or time forces are, being a plasma, a plasma manifestation. It has some purpose, and its purpose interacts with us. And when I say it interacts, it is interacting with your unconscious, the your meaning the percipient, the person that's interacting with it. They have their own unconscious expectations, their own belief system, and the manifestation that's occurring in front of them interacts with that, knows what it is, and it adjusts and modifies its behavior to interact with the percipient, to make it more relevant to the percipient. Often it pushes them a little more than what they expect. So that's kind of a thumbnail of it. Native Americans had procedures to interact with them. That's how I got into that. That's why I like talking about the Native American side, because they had really specific things you needed to do to interact with these forces, and they even told us why you needed to. If you didn't voluntarily interact with them, then they would come to you anyway. So if you voluntarily interacted with the forces, then you could control it somewhat and you would be blessed. That was the idea of having all the rituals time throughout the year to get these things to manifest so the whole tribe could kind of get in sync and harmony with them. On the other hand, if you ignore them, then they cause chaos. They come to us anyway. And one of the things that I put in the book was about all of the electromagnetic frequencies and fields that are around us all the time now that have really caused, well, I call it a electromagnetic cesspool that we live in. When I wrote the book, I was living in a different house in downtown Memphis on an island, densest part of the city. And I checked my Wi-Fi connections while I was there, and I had 21 different Wi-Fi signals I was getting at the time. That does not include the thousands of cell phone bubbles that I'm in. What people think when they think of a cell phone and connection to whatever the closest tower is, they think there's like a straight line beam going out. There's not. It's a bubble. Every phone creates a big, gigantic bubble around it. And we're walking through these all the time, not just from the cell towers, but from everybody's phone. And what that does biochemically, and when I say biochemically, I'm really talking about brain chemistry here. It is causing like tremendous disruptions to our natural rhythm, our natural electromagnetic ambient frequency, which is known as the Schumann resonance. So we're living in this cesspool now, and things are getting weirder. That's part of the point of this. Things are getting increasingly weird, and it's very difficult to harmonize with these forces anymore, although Native Americans still attempt it and still do it. But you have to be in very specific places to do that. So, okay. So did I answer the end beings part of it? Absolutely. Absolutely. And you mentioned the mechanisms that shamans have developed to get these things to manifest. I'd love to hear a little bit more about those mechanisms. To understand it, you've really got to understand the creation of the universe from their point of view. And this is going to sound exactly like modern physics. And in fact, I was kind of shocked when I pulled all this information out. So there's two types of Native American beliefs that people are accustomed to knowing about. One of them is the most common. These are children's stories about creation, stories about animals, and most of these stories are about teaching morals and right and wrong, and just entertainment. So children's stories are the most common ones. Then there are the sacred stories. And those were basically kept secret. Those tell what they really believe, things about life and death and where we came from. All of those things are part of the sacred story. So I'm going to only talk about the sacred story here. So the sacred story of creation begins with a singularity. And I'm not making that word up myself. That is actually in the ethnography books. At the very beginning, there was a singularity of spirit, spiritual energy, the great spirit. That's all it was. One piece of spirit. And then they say that for its own reasons, this singularity of spiritual energy divided itself into two parts, like the yin and the yang symbol. People have seen the yin and yang symbol. It's like a circle. And then it has like two drops that fit perfectly and they rotate around like they're two opposites. Well, that happened with this singularity. And of course, it's a contradiction in terms. You can't have a singularity divided into two parts. So the moment the two parts occurred, the singularity split. That was the creation of the universe. Modern physics calls it the Big Bang. The Zuni tribe, the Zuni are probably the oldest remaining of the ancient Puebloan people. And the Zuni called it a container of all that thought outward. That's their term for it. That's how they explained the Big Bang. The mound builders and the Cheyenne called it a singularity. And it developed these two portions. And then the two portions literally blew apart. And what it did was create a three-part universe. An upper world, a lower world, and a middle world. The middle world is the physical universe. The upper world represents one of the two powers that the singularity split under. And the lower world is the other power of the singularity. So what the two powers are, the upper world is creation. Literally creation. The process of creation. And it also represents order in the universe. That there are orderly things and cycles that go on in the universe. Like the movement of the sun across the sky every day. It's orderly. If you follow it long enough, you'll see the order. Same with the moon. The moon's movements are predictable. They're very orderly. So those are powers of the upper world. The lower world is disorder. It's all the bad things that can happen. All the bad weather. Animals are involved in it, like animal attacks. But it's also the process of entropy. And I like the term creation and entropy here. Entropy is a term in physics that simply means that from the moment something is created, a process begins that degrades whatever's been created back to its most primordial form. So entropy is the instant. It's the process of something degrading and falling apart. And everything eventually falls apart. Everything is in a degrading mode. You can keep working on stuff to keep it in working order. Even with relationships, relationships are subject to entropy too. But eventually all of it ends. So you have these two great forces, creation, which is putting things together, constantly bringing new life into the world, and entropy, removing life from the world, things are falling apart. But when that happens, it's allowing things to then be used for creation. It's part of the great cycle. So from this belief system, you have to understand that everything is spiritual in its nature because it all came from this great spirit to begin with. The physical world or the physical universe, which they usually refer to as the middle world, is made out of, let's go through some of the elements, dirt, for example. Dirt is the most primordial form of energy, spiritual energy, that there is. So they would use dirt to create certain types of geometrically arranged earthworks that allowed the movement of people in them along some prescribed order and used in rituals. Stone. Stone is a type of solidified spiritual energy. Water is moving and liquefied spiritual energy. Fire is the release of spiritual energy. You've got crystals, which are a type of purified spiritual energy, which then can be used and manipulated in certain rituals. So everything in this belief system is spiritual. So they would build mound sites, pyramids, and so on, out of earth and rock. Water was always involved in this, and crystals are almost always found adjacent too because all of these spiritual elements are part of what they were trying to do with this. So the final piece to this is what the heck the world represents and why we're here and what are these entities that we're talking about. How's the paranormal fit? So in their belief system, they talk about why humans came to this earth and what the earth is, is a three-dimensional double-sided mirror. Let me say that again. Earth is a three-dimensional double-sided mirror, and it's a mirror double-sided because it's reflecting the power of the upper world, creation, and it's reflecting the power of the lower world, entropy, at the exact same time. It's three-dimensional so that these two forces can play themselves out. It gives them a playing field for this cycle to continue, to just keep going. You have constant creation and entropy, order and disorder, and it happens over and over. So, on this three-dimensional surface, humans were placed. Humans were placed here, according to this belief system, for two reasons. One, we have the intellectual capability of understanding and appreciating the cycle that is going on all the time. These two great forces in this constant cycle, around and around it goes. We can see that, we can perceive it, we can understand it. And secondly, in the Native American belief system, we are here to harmonize with those two forces, to keep it in harmony. And so, the tribes, the tribal shaman, were tasked with maintaining the harmony with this spiritual entity, this spiritual force, and us, and so that they would maintain this harmony. The purpose of it is to allow the tribe to have good things happen over time. So, they would heal people with it, they could ensure that there were good crops, so they could ensure that there would be rain. And that is what the shaman were supposed to do. They were supposed to harmonize with these spiritual forces. So, they erected different kinds of geometric earthworks, circles and squares and so on. They would erect mounds that would point to certain stars for certain times of the year in order to hold the rituals. Supposedly, in the literature and in the book, I talk about a meeting with a fellow by the name of Lou White Eagle, who was a Cheyenne, he was one of the arrow priests of the Cheyenne nation. I talked about him and his experiences with us here in Memphis, where I am in Memphis. He said and told me it's the first time I'd heard this, this was back in 1988 and 89 when I knew this guy. He said that they actually physically manifested these forces inside the sacred enclosures. Now, he led me to certain literature and I read the same thing in this literature from the 1800s and even in the 1900s, that some of the early ethnographers did in fact watch the manifestation of some of these entities. So, there you go. That's a thumbnail of it all. Native Americans believe that we are constantly interacting with these spiritual forces. They call them spiritual. Based on everything Andrew and I have looked at, they are talking about plasma forms. They have their own word for them. They call them the Mayan. They usually come when they're first encountered. They come as tricksters. This also fits the thing and that is you really can't trust what they tell you. And if you think about all of the contactee experiences, well, the contactees were a group of people who claimed that again a flying saucer landed and out walked some alien and the alien would say, oh, I'm from the planet Mars or I'm from Venus or we live on the moons of Saturn or we're from Jupiter or wherever. They almost always were somewhere in the solar system. Sometimes they were in a hidden planet in the solar system, a planet called Clarion or whatever. But we know that they often lied to people. that is, they couldn't be trusted. So even Native Americans said that when you are very first interacting with these beings, these forces, they almost always come as a trickster. And the trickster, you have to navigate. You have to show that you are spiritually harmonized enough to get past the trickster aspects of it. when they appear as a trickster, they're not going to kill you. They simply mislead you. But again, they read what's going on within you. They read your own unconscious contents and your belief system. And then their manifestation takes all that into accordance. And that's how they basically trick us. They trick us using our own proclivities, whatever they may be. I know I've gone a long way around here and hit a lot of stuff, but I tried to summarize that Native American stuff pretty quickly, and it's just so detailed it's hard to do very fast. Yes, yes it is. And I know I have way too many notes for this interview, but the trickster thing is super interesting. I had a quote here where you say, the trickster is a temporary entity that can create fear, distrust, and confusion. In brief, the trickster seems to be one thing, but it's actually another. It seems to relate truth, but it often leads to deceit. It makes you think you are right when you're actually wrong. It is a creator of chaos and instigates entropy, the breakdown of order. However, as it fulfills that role, it also facilitates creation and can lead to a deeper understanding of life's many mysteries. If you can move beyond the deceptions of the trickster, you can come to see reality more clearly and gain power from the interaction. And this goes hand in hand with what a lot of paranormal researchers say, that when they start investigating this intentionally, something looks back at them and sometimes follows them and latches onto them throughout their life. And this is, seems to be how the trickster operates. And two other little things I wanted to throw in because what's really great about the book is for anyone who's looked at a lot of Fortean paranormal experiences, there are little commonalities and there are little things that it's like, huh, that's weird. I wonder why that is. Well, this plasma argument takes a lot of these little things and it makes sense of them. And two that I think are interesting are this envelope thing and caves. And I just want to throw these two things out together. I love this paragraph about interactions with these plasmas because it's a visualization of the paranormal encounters that I've definitely seen a ton of times. To quote the book again, you write, when the plasma forms, it creates an electromagnetic shell or bubble around itself. When one of these forms appears near a human, the electromagnetic bubble surrounds both the plasma and its participant. The electromagnetic field creates an energy wall forming a consciousness interaction field, meaning that the beliefs and mental state of the human inside the bubble interact with the purpose of the plasma. Science completely breaks down at this point. Which is a great last line, but seriously, there are many Christian depictions of angels, and oftentimes there is a bubble around the person of glowing light. And it also kind of invokes the whole beam of light taking me up to the craft theme of a lot of UFO encounters. They're hit with this beam, and it envelopes them. And so to me, that was a good parallel, but also caves. So the Earth can create the right conditions for these plasmas to form, and we didn't really talk much about that, but maybe earthquakes are a factor. I'll let you explain further. But for them to appear solid, they rip electrons and particles from nearby objects and sort of suck them up. And I love this idea, and we so often hear about sightings or beings coming out of caves, and that's eye-opening because there is so much dust and dirt and general material to suck up that when some paranormal being comes out of a cave, now we have a pretty good explanation, it seems. So these are like the little details that I think are explained pretty well by this overall case. That's very insightful about all those little things. That's quite an insight you have there, and you're absolutely correct with it. We did try to explain all of the little nuances in the paranormal and the UFO field. One of the ideas that people may get is that there really is nothing behind plasma. Why would it have its own intelligence? And I tried to answer it already by saying that it's part of the whole to begin with. All things are connected. That's the first half of the book that I wrote. That was the title for the entire first half, which is a Native American belief that all things are connected. There is a web, like a spider's web, and I deliberately chose the spider's web in this. I did a book called People of the Web about the same time the internet came out, and everybody thought it was about the internet, but it was about spiders as a trickster, and the idea that all things are connected. So a spider's web, which could get huge, if you vibrate any part of a spider's web, it all vibrates. And that's the way the universe is. That's the way this operates. And that's also the way, if you think about the singularity that started everything, everything was part of that initial piece, so it became a huge web throughout the entire universe. But it has intelligence, it has a purpose. The purpose of it, even Native Americans would say the purpose goes beyond what we can understand. They're simply supposed to harmonize with it so that good things would happen. That's basically what the whole harmony is for with it. But things like when the plasma forms, yes, it has to have something to pull in to become physical. If you have a physical manifestation, we already know this occurs. The military calls them dusty plasmas. The military has actually picked them up on radar and has seen them on radar. And they call them dusty because they're pulling in little physical particles of matter. And they pull them into this ball, they can become saucer-shaped because they begin to spin and it starts to flatten out. Lights come out of them. They sometimes look like they have portholes on the side. So all those little aspects of UFOs are explained by this. As far as the entities coming out of caves, in the Cheyenne Massim ceremony, which is the main ceremony meant to manifest these beings, they opened up one side of a sacred circle toward a mountain. Bear Butte was usually it. And the mountain had caves. And the caves are the dwelling place of the Mayan. And the Mayan is the Cheyenne term for what the Muslims might call the djinn or what the old British people might have called fairies. All of these are interconnected and they're all culturally determined beings, entities. the Mayan looked appropriate to Native Americans, just like the fairies were dressed sort of appropriate to the Irish or the British or the Scottish that would interact with them. And the Muslim djinn dressed and appeared appropriate to them, to their culture. So these things are, they interact with us in ways that it's very difficult for us to understand. but they do read our unconscious. They do know what's happening with us and they have their own purpose in these interactions. And the purpose can be to create chaos, but it's usually a test of some kind. I know a lot of people have gone off the deep end after interactions, but I know a lot of people become very, very religious and very, very spiritual after these experiences, which brings me to a point here. And the point is that skeptics say that people that believe in all this have what's called fantasy proneness. There are psychological tests you can give people that will determine if you're prone to having fantasies, such as UFOs. That's a good fantasy. Well, the thing the test doesn't measure is this. It assumes that if you believe in these things that you're going to be prone to see them then. That's what the test assumes. But my belief is this. I don't think that fantasy proneness is causing UFO sightings. I think when people see UFOs and when people have really strange paranormal experiences, they come to believe pretty quickly that there's something out there. So that when they take the test to measure fantasy proneness, it says, do you believe there's something out there? And they put, well, of course, I've seen it. So it's like, what is causing what here? I think fantasy proneness can be a consequence of realizing there really is something out there. So skeptics, don't let skeptics ruin this idea for you. What Andrew and I have done with this is to really create a very unpopular idea and try to make it understandable and try to throw all the little elements into it that it needs to have in order to explain everything such as ancient aliens, such as the possibility that there may very well be some modern UFOs that truly are what they appear to be, extraterrestrial, probably not very many, but we also wanted a way to explain the strange experiences that Shaman had. And we know they, this takes this into Andrew's side, we know that they have been doing this, that is interacting with these forces for a long, long time. Because while I stuck with Native American stuff, which might go back to, you know, 12, 15,000 years ago, their belief system, Andrew starts out with Kessim Cave in Israel that we now know goes back over 400,000 years. It is a shaman's cave near Tel Aviv. He got to go into the cave with the archaeologists that excavated it. He got to go through all the artifacts, and a lot of the artifacts that they found in the cave are related to shamanistic devices and shamanistic materials, such as the wings of swans, which we know were used in a whole bunch of rituals here in North America, as well as those in the Middle East where this stuff was found. So Andrew takes it back 400,000 years, which is actually astonishing when you think about it. Yes, his part of the book is great. He talks about this Kessim cave and Mount Garrison being near it. Yes. And the whole story of the Ark of the Covenant, these tablets, it says very clearly were made from the stone of Mount Garrison, and it's like this plasma said, hey, if you want to communicate with me, if you want to be able to take this connection away from the mountain, make these tablets, put them in this box, do this certain stuff, and then you can carry this away, and we can communicate. And that seems to be the crux of what it was. And when people talk about, oh, you get too close to the Ark of the Covenant, you get ill, well, radiation poisoning. I mean, this is kind of the thing. It all starts to make sense. I really like that section. He talks about Skinwalker Ranch as well. I heard an interview recently where he was talking about this. And he presents it kind of as if he considers Skinwalker Ranch this big area, almost one giant blanket bean over the area. But in the book, there is a pretty incredible photo he took of a weird, I would say, feathered serpent in the sky at Skinwalker Ranch. But I guess that kind of brings me to a question about portal places or places of heightened activity. What makes a place a portal place? I mean, obviously our modern industrialization and smart cities and the EMF environment dampens the ability for these plasma beans to manifest and do their thing. But how do they occur naturally and what makes a portal area a portal area? Well, obviously a portal is a place where activity occurs over and over. It just kind of spontaneously occurs. So, for example, Sedona, Arizona is considered a place where there are portals or vortices is the term they often use. But these vortices are places where they claim that there are manifestations of paranormal activity that occur regularly. So, the idea here, and I'll stick with the Native American belief, they look at areas that have very specific types of rocks and rock formations. They like the movement of water nearby. That has to occur. We know through research with physics and earthquakes and so on that the movement of water through the cracks in certain types of structure, underground structure, generates huge amounts of electricity, which then becomes plasma-based. We know how plasmas can form through natural geological processes and things like tectonic strain, which is not an earthquake. Earthquakes stop it. Earthquakes will stop the generation of plasmas because an earthquake is a way for the strain to be relieved. It is the pressure that builds in tectonic strain. It is the pressure that produces the energy release. That is exactly what does it. The greater the pressure is, the greater the energy release is. This has been studied in two places, Yakima, Washington on the Yakima Tribal Reservation, which was not too far from Mount St. Helens, where in the 70s and 80s, actually from the 50s till the 80s, there were loads of UFO reports. A lot of them were studied by physicists. They concluded that these are plasma forms. Another place where it occurred was New Madrid, Missouri, that area, and the Piedmont, Missouri UFO flap of roughly 1964 through the 80s, and that appeared to cease after an earthquake hit the area. It was in 1987, I believe, because I was actually here when the earthquake hit and felled it, but that kind of cut the activity. So earthquake activity actually reduces the number of UFOs after the earthquake, because your tectonic strain is reduced. So Native Americans knew that places where water was moving through stone, places where they could expose the real dirt, the subsurface, not, they didn't like to do their ceremonies on sod, so they would remove the sod and expose bare earth. They didn't like doing it on rock either, they liked to have it on bare earth, and then they would remove whatever they were wearing on their feet and have their feet grounded into the bare earth. That's also the way kivas were done in the southwest. The kivas of the southwest tribes, same thing, bare earth at the bottom, not stone. So, I believe that the shaman are different in that they had certain senses where they could feel or sense the presence of geomagnetic anomalies. They knew they were in an area where this stuff could emerge, where they could make contact with it and commune with it. And I believe, and put this in the book, I think it probably has to do with the amount of magnetite that's in the brain, particularly in the hippocampus of the brain. I thought that as long ago as 1992 and wrote it up back then. And magnetite is in the human brain. It aligns to basically whatever electromagnetic field we're in at the time. So, you have these little crystals of magnetite in your brain that are aligning to electromagnetic fields that you happen to be moving through. some people naturally have more magnetite in their brain than others. And I think that's the genetic difference. I think shaman were probably born with more of that particular mineral in certain areas of the brain so they're sensitive to it. And they may simply be more spiritual because of it. And years ago I speculated, hell, the whole idea of the chosen ones, chosen people, well, they may be chosen because they can sense things because in certain areas of their brain they have a structure that can communicate with things that most of us cannot communicate with. And I think the mechanism involved with that is probably the mineral magnetite. Anyway, it may or may not be true. That's real speculation. Not a lot of research has been done with it. We just know it's there. Magnetite is what homing pigeons use to find their way home from pretty much anywhere you release them. They'll find their way back. But there's magnetite in pigeon brains. That's what they use to navigate themselves. So, okay. I don't know if I answered what you asked or not, man. I got all over the place. I like it. I like it. Yeah, I mean, basically just how these things form, that's a great explanation. Like places where the geological conditions are right and someone can sense them. I was going to ask you about magnetite because I'm notorious for saying that I'm not very energetically sensitive or sensitive to spirits or any of this kind of stuff. Maybe I need more magnetite. Is there any way to increase the presence of magnetite in one's brain? Is there anything we can eat perhaps? Probably not. I don't know of any research that has indicated that no. And I'm not sure you'd really want to do that. The amounts we're talking about are probably very, very small. So, no, I don't know of any way to do that. I have had that theory for many, many years. I'm not the only one that has had it. There's another guy named Albert Budden, who's a UFO researcher in England. He and I communicated back in the 90s when we both found out about magnetite at the exact same time when it was very first announced. But I do think that is the key. But what we can do is what the Native Americans did, and that is you tune yourself to it. You go through a set of rituals. You engage in a set of rituals that basically attune yourself to the other side, to these other forces. And in essence, the whole idea of a ritual is you're trying to call them forth. You're trying to get them to come forth, to emerge, and to manifest themselves so you can commune with them or interact with them. The occultists did it. Black magicians do it for basically negative purposes. Native Americans had, there are two types of shaman. There are shaman that are healers, but there are also witches. And once a person became a witch, supposedly that was it. And it's like this. They found a way to tune themselves by using a pull. It's a psychoid pull. I know we haven't even mentioned that at all, but it's a pull that comes from the axis of the earth and it points to the northeast and it's vibrating. So what they would do is engage in a ritual that would vibrate themselves to the same vibrational frequency as this pull does, the pull that holds everything together. And that allowed them to mentally move their consciousness up and down this pull almost like it's an elevator. And when I say up the pull, it's like, okay, you want to interact with the forces of creation, which is where I suppose health might be. If you've got somebody that's sick, you have a shaman that might want to go to the upper world to try and interact with the force of creation to help someone that's sick. A witch, on the other hand, uses the vibration of this pull and then the elevator to go down, to go to the force of entropy or disorder. And it's usually to bring ill will to someone else. That's what a witch would basically be doing. To get revenge on someone or to get revenge on your enemies or bring bad things to happen to your enemies. But once you do that, there is no coming back. You can't go up the pull then. You're only then a witch. That's all you can do. So they tried to interact with it. They taught people to interact with it. They created spaces, circular spaces and squares. All of them have slightly different meanings. There's a meaning of where an opening is or if it has no opening. There are some circles that you'll see that mound builders made where you have like a wall of earth. The exterior wall might be 15 feet high. In the center of this, you could have this wall enclosing maybe three or four acres. In the center of it, it's perfectly flat, but there's no entrance. You have to climb over the wall to get in it. What were they doing with that? They would hold a ceremony in that to manifest something that they did not want to get out. The idea is that these spiritual forces that they are manifesting travel in straight lines and a wall would enclose them so they cannot escape out into the real world. They cannot escape. They would do a lot of rituals that way. Some of the rituals had an opening to allow the Mayan, these earth beings that are similar to the djinn, to get in and sometimes to get out to go back but they lived in caves to begin with so they came back and forth from caves. Sometimes the openings occurred towards certain stars such as Cygnus, the Cygnus constellation, Deneb, the star Deneb would be involved in it and also Orion's Nebula was involved in a lot of these rituals. So openings would be aimed directly at those stars setting on the extreme western horizon early in the morning and all of that was done as a way to commune with the spiritual world. But it's very complicated. There's lots of different ceremonies they performed, different times of the year. There were probably dozens of ceremonies and I've thought about this a lot. It's not that different from what we do today. How many ceremonies, religious ceremonies, do we have a year? How many holy holidays do we have a year? Loads of them. And so they simply were doing the same thing. But they were a little more interactive with it. Although some churches today definitely manifest spiritual energy. All you got to do is go to some of those churches and get involved in it and you'll see they do manifest a lot of spiritual energy. Yes, yes. And man, so many interesting little details there. I like the idea of a circle, an enclosure, and you mentioned that these beings are thought to move in straight lines and it makes me think of the western esoteric tradition and these old grimoires. I have talked to a lot of guests who pretty reliably say, hey, you draw out a pentagram, you do these incantations right out of the book, you get in the right mental state, there's little theatrics involved to probably get your mind into that state, and something will show up in that circle and be careful what you're doing. You have to be maybe a spiritually strong person, an emotionally strong person, and you have to close the ritual out or all hell breaks loose. These things can get out. And they just talk about how important it is to keep it contained in the circle. And like, what is a pentagram? It is a circle with a series of straight lines that go all over the place, like all sides of the circle, for lack of a better term, circles don't have sides, but if you think about a bean trying to escape a circular container, you would think about this pattern of the star inside just bouncing all around. And it's like, man, it all kind of coalesces into a pretty well-thought out idea. I think this is the crux of so many different paranormal things. Well, of course, the circle does have a wall, has one wall. Right, right, right. One giant wall, that is a great way of putting it. And when you said that, that suddenly occurred to me, well, it does have a wall, but it's just one. That's interesting. But yes, these things can attach to you if you don't do the right thing. John Keel, who we talked about in the book quite a lot, and Carl Young, both of them said the same thing. And in the movie, The Mothman Prophecies, the guy that played, his name was Leek, which Leek is Keel spelled backwards, of course. But John Keel often said that once you notice this phenomenon, you notice it. if it notices you, it will start following you. Now, one of the things that relates to this, there was a chairperson, the chairman of the physics department at Southeastern Missouri State University in Cape Girardeau, Missouri, did a field study of UFO reports in Missouri, Southeastern Missouri, from roughly 1973 till about 1980. His name was Harley Rutledge, PhD, physicist. He did a seven-year study, and what he found over the seven-year studies, he had 600 people working with him. They did field observations of UFOs, they saw lots of UFOs, filmed them, they had all kinds of exterior devices that they used, everything from field meters to magnetometers and telescopes and binoculars, you name it, they had everything that was available then. He concluded that what they were seeing were intelligent plasmas that interacted with the observers, and what he found was this, when he realized that these were plasmas and they had intelligence, they began following him. They showed up in his university hallways and the laboratories in the university. the plasmas literally followed him to the university, and then they started appearing over his house along the Mississippi River in Cape Girardeau. So he noticed it too. Once you notice them and they notice that you've noticed them, they will start following you. So that's the importance here in the occult literature. It talks about, okay, if you're going to interact with this stuff, you need to close the circle. You need to somehow close it out and disattach yourself from all of it. Otherwise, it may well follow you home, whatever that means, good or bad. It's not necessarily a bad thing, doesn't have to be bad, but that boils down to what your motives are. And that's a real key to this whole thing anyway, it's motives. I mean, why are you into this? That is what's going to show up. That's what's going to appear to you. And when I say that, what I mean specifically, if you believe that all UFOs are extraterrestrial beings and aliens, and they're just alien beings, and you interact with this force, that is probably what will be shown to you. You'll see that they are extraterrestrial beings. That's what will appear to you. If, on the other hand, you believe they're like fairies, or as the Native Americans believe, that they're trickster forms like the little people, and there's a story of that in the book, that is what will appear to you then. You'll see the little people. So, it all boils down to what your expectations are, and what's going on with you internally. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's a lot of interesting nuance in that aspect of interplay between the observer and this plasma intelligence. You know, I've talked to a lot of researchers who put a major emphasis on the inner world. Some say that our imagination, the dream world, and the spirit world are all aspects of the same non-physical dimension. I think the Dogon or the Australian Aboriginals have that kind of view. And if you talk to meditators, they'll say, well, one of the big things is you're trained to observe your thoughts. And the aha moment, I think, is when you realize, wait a second, if I'm observing these thoughts coming and going as almost a third party in my own mind, then are these thoughts even mine or are they something separate? And that seems to relate because when you're looking at a plasma being, you can also, it's like you're kind of observing your thoughts, so to speak, right before your eyes in the physical. And it's almost like a dream. As real as dreams can seem and as bizarre as they get, it's almost like a plasma presents you with like a waking dream. Who knows why our dreams are so weird or what's really happening there? It's not a screensaver for the mind as we're often told, but like what drives the experience of a strange dream? Is it your thoughts on the fly? It gets really strange, but there is definitely an inner and outer world and this seems like these plasmas are able to present aspects of the inner world to us in waking life. Well, absolutely. Remember what I said about the earth being a double-sided mirror and it's reflecting ourselves. It's reflecting our inner world onto the outer world. That's one way to look at it. It is reflecting these two great forces of the universe, all of which are in us, by the way, creation versus entropy, order versus disorder. That is built into us, but it's also reflecting what is going on in you. This world does. As you look out and you make judgments about the world, those judgments that you're making are coming from your own belief system and it's all filtering through. What you're observing is being filtered through your own belief system. That's how we make sense out of the world. What you're seeing out there is really what is coming out of you. Now, I'll add one more thing to this. I know you're getting close to the end here. I want to add something that I did not have space to put in the book and it's kind of the final secret about this because you're the only one I've talked to where we've really talked a lot about rituals that are intended to interact with these. For many, many years, I've wondered, like with the sand paintings that are done with the Navajo, I've observed some of that. I've interacted with some shaman. They're very specific about how the rituals are done and the words that are said and the movements you have to make and the colors that are involved and all those things. Not just the sand paintings, but I'm talking about all the rituals that are done. How you might pass a pipe around the room, how many puffs you might take, all those things. All those are taught to novices and all that is part of the learning process. There is a final secret to it all, though, and the final secret actually negates a lot of that. And the final secret to it is this, for say, the shaman who wants to really be a shaman, it is that you have to believe in what you're doing and you have to believe to such a degree that what you are doing is real that it not only convinces you to where you have no doubt at all that what you're doing works, but everybody around you senses your beliefs so strongly that they also believe. That is the final secret to this. So, in essence, all of that earlier training that you have about here's exactly the way we want you to draw this line or this circle or to make this formation, and here's the exact colors you need to put at each of the four corners, these are the exact motions you need to make. In essence, none of those exact things matter. What matters is that you 100% buy into it in order for you to interact with this, whatever it is. And I've never, this is the first time that I've actually talked about that or revealed it. I don't think I've said it anywhere else ever. I like it. I like it. And that is something occultists have said, too. And I've asked about, you know, why all the theatrics? Why the robes and the candles and the gems and all that? And that's their answer is it's like crutches or training wheels to help you get to that absolute belief. And it is very important. And it's obviously a little bit of a catch-22 to believe something before it occurs. but another little thread I wanted to ask you about is the fact that we have in these experiences, we have a visual aspect of the experience and we have an auditory aspect, usually the message that they come with. Well, if we're saying that the visual appearance of these things is heavily influenced by the observer's mind and what they expect to see or their worldview, why are we assuming that the messages are completely separate? Because it seems like the premise is that these beings come with a message and that message is theirs or theirs to deliver, but why wouldn't that message also be a projection of the observer's mind or what they might expect to hear in the same way it appears as they expect to see it? It is. You're absolutely correct. That's actually what Carl Jung said. When Jung studied the flying saucer phenomenon and he talked about the contactees, he said that the message that they're getting and that the message was, oh, you people have nuclear bombs, you're going to destroy the world and you need to do something dramatic here so you don't destroy the world and we're here to help you and all that. And that's what he saw. That's what he saw the UFO phenomenon, that it was about that people were getting this message of destruction and they were hoping and looking for salvation coming from space. So the message does relate to it. However, they are delivering this and it's like whatever the essence that they are to begin with. And when I say they, I mean whatever the underlying thing is, the force itself, we never get to see what it really is. I used a couple examples in the book, it's like the masks or the clown masks that were worn by the Zuni and the Hopi in their rituals. They would wear a mask and the reason they wear a mask is because the mask represents what they want the world to see, but you're not allowed to see what's behind the mask. You can't see it. And it's because what's behind the mask actually doesn't have a real form in the sense that a human being could understand it. It's like when I say creation, what would you visualize? Or when I say entropy or order and disorder, what would you visualize? You can't put a face on those really. It's just a force. So that force is manifesting. The underlying force, creation versus entropy, the trickster is a little bit of both. That's what most people are seeing, a little bit of both. So it's doing both at the same time. Its message does relate to whatever's going on with the person, what they might be expecting or what's bouncing around in their unconscious at the time. But they still, whatever this force is that's manifesting to them, it's still reflecting its essential essence, whatever that may be, be it a trickster or be it a representative of order or disorder. I don't know if that makes sense or not, but it's interacting with us. That's the whole thing. The message is an interaction, but they're still getting across whatever their fundamental purpose is. yeah, that makes sense. And a lot of the emphasis in the magical occult community is the honoring or fulfilling of requests. And you mentioned this also comes up with Native American shamans because it's like, oh, we're going to have a good harvest or something, you know, by communicating with this, it's going to bring us good fortune. I wonder how that works because I think everybody would like to improve their life somehow. And if communing with plasma intelligence from another dimensional aspect of reality could do it, we might. It comes with risks, I guess, if you get this trickster thing attached to you. But is that also something that comes from within? If you really need this job to happen or you really are looking for a house to buy and it's tough out there and you decide that you're going to invoke some kind of entity that is in the grimoires pegged to fulfilling these types of requests and you call it up and that actually happens, I mean, there's just something weird about that. Is that also coming from within or is there an archetype or an egregore that's been formed for those purposes over time? I think that it's probably several things at work. One of the things that I was thinking of when you talked there is prayer. Why do people sit and pray? Why do we pray? People pray to find a house. People pray for good health all the time. People pray for world peace. People are praying like crazy now for the world to try and straighten out. So when we pray, and I know my wife is Catholic, I know that some Catholics pray to saints and they pray to the saints to intervene in certain things. When we travel, we have a saint of travel, of safe travel, then a lot of people carry a little chain that has that saint dangling on it. Why do we do that? Do we really believe in it? Is it just superstition or whatever? In my belief, I think that there is something that we interact with. In fact, I know that we do. The most profound experiences that I have ever had are not ones that I produced deliberately. They are ones that came during times, I won't necessarily call it trauma, but when trauma was very close perhaps to happening and then something really profound rather happened and something might have manifested in my life and it fixed things. An example that I've used before is when my wife's mother died and she died at 3 o'clock in the morning in Missouri and my wife was there and she woke me up at 3 in the morning. I was in Memphis. I had actually driven back from Missouri and gotten home at midnight and was asleep maybe two and a half hours or so when she called. She told me to get stuff to bring up for the funeral and so on. So I got clothing and all that and got in the car. And then on the way up there, suddenly, unexpectedly, Laura's mother, my wife's name is Laura, her mother appeared in front of me and she had on this blue sort of gown thing and she had this huge rosary that was hanging around her neck with a cross at the end of it. And on each side of her, she could barely stand up, on each side of her, she had what I have to describe as an angel. I didn't see wings, but it was apparent to me that these were angels. And so I'm watching her and she is talking to me. and she's asking me to do certain things and at the end of this, at the end, she says, oh, Greg, one more thing. And I said, yes. And she bobbed her head at me and stared at me and she put a finger out. And again, she's being held up by these two angels and she almost fell when she did this. She yelled at me, wake up. And I opened my eyes and I had fallen asleep and I was about to run into a center divider, concrete divider, where an overpass went over on an interstate highway. The road had been pretty solid. So that would be a time where something really good happened. I have a couple other examples from my own life where something manifested. You can call it a dream or anything else. The timing of it is certainly very impressive. Probably saved my life. I have no doubt about that. I have never fallen asleep driving before, never have after, and I've sworn I'll never do it again because it's so easy when it happens. But that's an example where it happens spontaneously. I wasn't looking for it. I had been praying some the night before, but I wasn't praying for her to appear to me like that. I was just praying for her health. Yeah, that's a very interesting story. It jives with a lot of these encounters. I've also heard people talk about how they were in nature, and then they had the thought, man, it'd be cool if I saw something right now, and then bam, that triggers the experience. So there are these weird triggers that happen. You also talk about in the book someone who you refer to as the first contactee and their range of experiences, which might make a good example of the deceptive trickster experience, but who was that person? Talk to us a little bit about them and the wild accounts that they seem to have had. Well, okay, that person, one of the most impressive scientists of all time, very famous man. He was a nobleman in Sweden, a scientist who had written many, many books in physics and in chemistry and anatomy. He was a mathematician. He was offered the head of a department at the most prestigious university in his country of Sweden. He turned it down because he had a stuttering problem, but he was also an ambassador for their government. His name was Emanuel Swedenborg, very, very famous man. There's actually a religion formed around his beliefs and some of the things that I'm about to talk about here. So, it was in 1743, and I call him the first contactee. 1743, Emanuel Swedenborg was on a diplomatic mission to England, and he was in London. When he traveled, he traveled alone, he ate alone, he did not like the company of other people except women. He had women all over the place that he enjoyed their company very much. And that relates to some of his moral issues that some of his books have talked about. But anyway, he was in England, he was in a tavern, he was in a side room of a tavern eating, which the people that ran the tavern, he was a regular when he came to London, and he had his own room that they fed him in so he didn't have to be around other people. So, he was eating, and suddenly, a very strange man simply manifested in a chair in front of him, just manifested physically. He said the man was, he looked like any other man, but he just kind of odd looking. And the man looked at him and said something that is just bizarre but inauspicious. He said, don't eat too much. All he said. It so frightened Swedenborg that he leaped out of his chair and he ran back to the hotel where he was staying. Now, there are several accounts of what happened in that hotel that night, but Swedenborg had his own diary, and he talked about odd stuff happening the next night. But what we know that happened when he got back, there was some sort of a disturbance in his hotel room. He was the only person in the room. The police were called because Swedenborg was an ambassador and a representative of Sweden. So, the police came we don't know exactly what happened, but there was a policeman that sat outside of his room the rest of the night. So, the next night in Swedenborg's journal, he said, what happened was this. He went back to his room the next night, laid in bed, and the moment he laid in bed, his room filled full of light. And then in the midst of this light, this man materialized again. The man, he said, looked just like any other person except he had on purple robes, this giant purple robe set. The man sat down in a chair and told Swedenborg that I am going to open your mind. So, for the next 28 years, Swedenborg had not just this man, but many other beings manifest in front of him, these beings told him that they were from the other planets in the solar system. They were from Mars, Venus, the moon. He went to Saturn and Uranus. He went to Jupiter with them. He took rides with them to these planets. The planets were all inhabited by people. They had cities just like we do today. They were a little more advanced. He talked about their clothing. Swedenborg wrote books about this, a whole series of books. Remember, he interacted with these beings for 28 years. He said they were physical, just like us. He hugged them. He touched them. He shook hands with them. They took walks on the street with him. I can't find anywhere where he interacted with them and other people. It may be in some of those obscure books that he wrote, but I've never found it. I have some original copies of his books on this. In a book called Earths in the Universe, they gave him a lot of information. He said the entire universe is teeming with life and the life has been visiting Earth. These beings have been coming here for a long time. That's like your ancient astronaut theory also from Immanuel Swedenborg. Here's the weird thing. Swedenborg said that they're physical beings, that they live on these other planets. Well, we know that the other planets are not covered with cities just like here on Earth. We know Mars is not covered with cities and there's people just like us living in cities everywhere on the surface on Mars. We know that's not true. We know that they're not living on the surface of Saturn, for example. We know that they're not on Venus or the Moon, for that matter. I'm not saying that there's not civilizations perhaps hidden inside of those places, but Swedenborg didn't say they were hidden on the inside. So here's what we know. Whatever these creatures were, whatever these beings were, well, they deceived him. They were deceptive. I don't know that Swedenborg actually went on trips to these other planets. He certainly thought he did. So again, here you go. Here's the contactee. Exactly the same thing that happened to the contactees of the 1950s and 1960s. Exact same thing. But we're talking about 1743 with Emanuel Swedenborg. So he was lied to by them. That's the trickster aspect. Does that make sense? Why it's a trickster then? It definitely makes sense why that would qualify as a trickster. I still scratch my head as to why provide those experiences and why create those lies? Like what is the motivation to make a person believe that there's life on these other planets when it seems like these beings are only around temporarily? It seems like it's maybe taxing on them to make these visitations. I'm not quite sure, but they seem rare enough that that might be possible. And then why use that time, that precious time, to simulate, I guess, journeys to the other planets and stories about life there? Well, if you recall where I started this, I said, what did I say that Swedenborg was? A scientist. Exactly. And Swedenborg had already believed that there was life on other planets. He came along after there were some other people that were burned at the stake for believing there's life elsewhere in the universe. Giordano Bruno was the first that we know who said that there was life elsewhere in the universe, and that was in the 1500s. So we know that loads of scientists around the time of Swedenborg, they believed there was probably life everywhere. And that created a sort of conflict for them because it made them wonder about their beliefs in Christianity. Swedenborg very, very much believed in Christianity. but then you have the scientists saying that well, there's probably life everywhere in the universe and probably everywhere in the solar system. And at the time of Swedenborg, they didn't have any way to really look at the surface of all the other planets. There was no way really to look and see, but they suspected that well, there might be people there just like us. So what I'm telling you is that what this force did, it pretty much interacted with Swedenborg's own unconscious belief system and fed back to him what he believed to begin with. Yes, that totally makes sense. And it's just a no-brainer, I guess, now that it wanted to play with his belief systems and just mess with him a little bit. Well, I think he probably got to some deeper aspects of it. If you really read all of Swedenborg's writing in this, the modern Swedenborg society, really dislikes this ancient alien aspect of it. And what they'll tell you is, oh, it's all just the spiritual thing. He told us about the reality of the spiritual world and these were spiritual beings. And I think Swedenborg eventually came to see that, yes, it is all about the spiritual world manifesting to him and it wasn't people in other planets. But for those 28 years, he wrote that these were people from other planets coming to them. I think later he came to see that oh, there's a spiritual reality that's manifesting to me. Just like Native Americans say, it's all a spiritual reality manifesting. Right, right. And remember, demons are spiritual beings too. There's good and bad. It's all spiritual in this sense. Good and bad stuff alike, it's all spiritual. Yes, yes, that makes sense. And you mentioned Lou White Eagle briefly earlier on and you do have a great story about an experimental device you had in your office called the Graham Potentializer and Lou White Eagle's experience with it. Can you tell people a bit about that? Because it is telling in terms of the mechanisms and the proper EMF environment that can trigger these beings coming into the visual parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. Yeah, all right. So that was in 1989 when this occurred, early 1989. Lou White Eagle, he was an arrow priest of the Cheyenne tribe and he became much, much more impressive over the years and had all kinds of titles with them. But anyway, he and his wife and family stayed with my wife and I for 30 days in Memphis. At the time, I was the head of drug and alcohol treatment programs at a local prison, but I had a small private practice. And so it was on a Sunday during this 30 days that Lou stayed with me and I took him over to my private practice office and I was going to do some paperwork and I had this device in the office where I worked with a psychiatrist and a psychologist that were both friends of mine. And I asked Lou if he wanted to try this device. So what it is, it looks kind of like a big massage table or almost like a couch with no sides. So you would lay on this device, you'd recline on it, it was very comfortable, and it created an electromagnetic bubble around your body. This electromagnetic bubble was tuned to the exact frequency of the Schumann resonance, the Earth's ambient electromagnetic frequency. So as it did this, it also did this rotational up and down movement, and it was every seven seconds it would go through a complete cycle of going up and down in a circle. Very gentle, very gentle motion. The times that I used the device, it simply felt like you're going down all the time. Even when you're moving up, it felt like you were going down. And you could change the experience by moving your head from one end to the other. That is, put your head on the north pole or put your head on the south pole. So I asked Lou if he wanted to try this device, and he said, yeah, he did. So I put him on the device. I turned it on. I went to another room to do paperwork. I had to file some insurance forms. So it was about 10 minutes later, 10, maybe 15 minutes later, Lou came into the room where I was doing the paperwork, and he was visibly shaken. I could tell that. Now, this is a big guy. Lou was probably about 6'3", 6'4", weighed about 260, 270. And he came in, and in that deep voice that he had, very stereotypical Native American voice, he came in, and I looked at him, and I said, what's up? And he said, little people. And I said, what? And he said, little blue people, little blue people. I said, what are you talking about? And he said, little blue people are in the room. They're all over the room. So I went into the room to look and see. I didn't see anything the device was still moving up and down, still doing that motion. So I turned it off. It took him a while to really talk to me about it. I asked him if he wanted to use the device again. He did not. So what happened to him was this. He laid on the device and closed his eyes, and after a few minutes laying on it, he felt the presence of something, like somebody was watching him. So he opened his eyes, and there were three big windows that looked to the outside. This machine was in its own room, and there were three windows that went to the backyard and the outside. And what he saw were these little tiny people in blue, just blue. It wasn't like they had clothing on, it's just like they were blue beings, little people, and they were looking in the room through the windows at him. And then he saw them literally melt through the window and melt through the walls, and suddenly he was surrounded by these little blue people. And he said it was very terrifying. And then they had their arms out, and they started poking at him with their fingers. fingers, and he was paralyzed up to that point. They could not move. He could open his eyes and look around the room, but that was it. So when they started poking him, that must have broken the paralysis that he had, and he immediately got up and walked into the room to talk to me about it. Later, I showed him the cover of Whitley Streber's book, Communion, and he said they look sort of like that, but not exactly. And he described them as the little people in Native American lore, which are very, very famous. They are tricksters, but they're the most powerful form of tricksters, and if you can get by their trickster aspect, you get a lot of really deep spiritual insights from them. But that's what he said they were. They were the little people that came to him in that room. Very strange experience he had. I used the device numerous times, had my own experiences with it, but I never saw the little people. So it really weirded him out quite a lot, because the Cheyenne really are the main people who talk about the little people and have given the most information to the ethnographers about the little people. They're known throughout mythology and history, lots of classic stories about them. So that's the story. I love that story, and it does speak to some of the mechanisms and how we might be able to create the conditions, because I think for a lot of people who haven't had this type of experience, they would kind of like to have it triggered. Obviously, there's some trepidation, be careful what you wish for, but I certainly would like to have that experience triggered and to know that there's a device that can cause something to happen, whether it's little people or something else. I mean, that's really exciting. Yeah, now the device was removed from our office about a year later because they found that, I got to be careful saying this because I haven't really followed up on it. I know you can still buy the machines, but they're different because the early device put out too much electromagnetism. So that's all I'll say about it, but they have an updated version of it. Fair. And we talked a little bit about the military and them looking into plasma. And there's also this thread about military intelligence and disinformation agents in the ufology community. And some people think that these whistleblowers or experiencers who've gotten a lot of fame on the circuit, they're plants to try to make people believe certain things about these experiences. Probably the main one being that they are from outer space or there's this theme that expectation becomes the reality of these experiences. You can see the expectation that there are little green men in these silver crafts and then what do people see? Little green men in silver crafts. You can kind of probably monitor the data and collect a lot of information about how that interplay takes place. And I do think that goes on on the ufology circuit. There's also a thread of people thinking that the military will weaponize the paranormal or create a fake alien invasion using Project Bluebeam. And I wanted to read this interesting paragraph from the book because you do talk about some of their developments. You say, in 2018 the military created a scalable compact ultra short pulse laser system. It produces flash bangs of plasma of any size or duration and causes skin pain and burning. It can also transmit verbal messages a mile in distance. In 2020 Popular Mechanics issued a follow-up report on the U.S. Navy's new plasma-based missile fooling technology. A laser device was described that created three dimensional plasma objects in the air that rotated moved as directed and could be picked up by radar. The plasmas can be tuned to any electromagnetic frequency signature desired and can create a ghost image that is real but temporary. This was first reported by Forbes when they discovered that the U.S. Navy had filed a patent on this technology. Well, I mean, wow, man, this is exactly what people speculate might be possible and I'm skeptical of now I don't know what if I see something I'm like, is the military messing with me or is this one of the natural ones? Well, I've believed for years, well, I know this, I know that they've already militarized a lot of this plasma stuff. I mean, we're talking about plasmas here. People think laser, you know, it's that lasers can produce plasmas very easily. And most people think of a laser as like a beam of light going out, but you don't necessarily, depending on what frequency that they're sending the light out with, because all electromagnetic energy technically is like light, it's just not visible light, they have different frequencies so you won't necessarily see the beam. So I believe that a lot of what is reported by the Navy being seen is real field experimentation that the pilots do not know what's going on, nor does the ship know what is going on, and what they are doing is field testing the radar in the planes and the radar on the ships, and field testing the pilots' reactions and what the pilots see, and remember very little of this was really visible, they were looking through infrared and a lot of the radar images, they couldn't see anything visually, but they could pick it up on radar, and I think that there is some field testing going on of weaponized plasma devices, and I know it's been going on for years, they can literally, there's a device that they have, the first one that you discussed is called a scupples, the scupples, but they can literally put words in your head, so you would hear spoken words in your head from miles away, it sounds bizarre, and it is bizarre, but it's already been done, the devices already exist, it doesn't take as much energy now for these laser-based devices, because now they're using solid state rather than just purely energetic devices, the solid state uses less energy, but they have developed loads and loads of things from what I believe is the military's research on UFOs, and if you go back to a 2006 report called the Condign Report, C-O-N-D-I-G-N, issued by the British Ministry of Defense, you will see in that where they discuss plasma research being developed by the military based upon their belief that almost all legitimate UFO sightings are plasmas, so they took that information that UFOs, legitimate UFOs, are plasma-based, they took that information and they began using that information to develop weapons, that's it, and they've been doing that for a very, very long time. I gave several examples in there of what I thought they were doing, I saw the Gulf Breeze light back in 1989, I believe, or 92, can't recall now, it's in their book, Grand Illusions, and when I saw the Gulf Breeze light with 106 other people at a park in Gulf Breeze, Florida, I was certain that there were observers of the Office of Naval Research in that group of people taking notes, watching what people were doing, what they believed when they were observing the Gulf Breeze light back then, and I had done work, I think, I said this, I believe we said this in the beginning, I worked for the Office of Naval Research on a contract for two years, 1972 to 74, and I definitely know it's something they could do and something they would do back then, so, yeah, I think that a lot of what's going on out there in the real world right now is we're seeing the results of military research with plasmas being field tested right now, yeah, I think that's been going on. So that makes me wonder, is the plasma a vessel for this intelligence or is it the plasma itself? Because now we're talking about kind of a simulation or a technologically generated plasma, does that make it different? Is this just like a new type of trigger for a plasma to emerge? Well, let me ask you this, is your body the vessel of the essence of you? Is it just the vessel or is it you? I think it's a vessel for consciousness. Okay, so don't you think that plasmas could be a vessel for consciousness? Coming from that spiritual side, wherever it's, remember, no matter what it is in this universe, no matter what you're talking about, its essence, at least with the Native American belief that I really adhere to, it's all spiritual energy to begin with. So it is simply when it manifests, it's going to exemplify whatever its basic spiritual essence is. So yes, it would have a form of consciousness. So yeah, I don't know that the military's application of them, though, would give it enough time to manifest that consciousness. That I don't know. And I've never experimented directly with this myself. I have experimented with archetypes and I've experimented with using ways like the psychomantium that Robert Morse, Don Morse, who started the near-death experience stuff, he believed that you could meet dead people from a mirror and he called it a psychomantium and I actually set that up and did experimentation with that some years ago and brought people in and did experiments with them. So you can experiment with this stuff, but I've never experimented with plasmas and all that. I think lasers are kind of dangerous. So I've kind of stayed away from that. Yes, yes. And one, I guess, last thing we could touch on in terms of your vast experience in experimenting and adventuring out to get out of the books and into the field. I heard you talk about an experiment done with plants and of course the term animism does come up in the book. That is kind of a buzzword around here now and as you say in the book it's not really a proper term but it does kind of get the point across that consciousness emerges from all things. Well, you did a plant experiment that kind of showed the consciousness and intelligence of plants with an encephalograph or something like that. Could you relay that story? Yeah, okay. Physiograph and encephalograph is for the brain. We used physiograph. So this was back in 1972 when I very first started graduate school in psychology and the area that I was in was psychopharmacology which is a study of how drugs work in the brain. But I had a major professor had his PhD in pharmacology from Vanderbilt University. He had a wife who was a psychiatrist had her MD from Vanderbilt University. And in 1972 it was kind of the heyday of the new age movement. So around that time you had lots of people that were doing spoon bending parties, key bending parties. Uri Geller was a sensation then. You're a bit young to remember this but have you ever seen do you know what a spoon bending party is? Oh absolutely. It makes its way into the matrix. Yeah people were doing that at the time. They were building pyramid. Pyramid power was a big deal. But my major professor and his wife were very very interested in all of this as they knew I was. So some of the things that we did in the lab is we built pyramids based upon what the book pyramid power and what other people wrote and said that if you build a pyramid of these dimensions with these angles out of this material you could put like a dull razor blade in it and it would sharpen and you could put food in it and it wouldn't go bad. You could put a plan in it and it would do better and all those things. So we literally tested that didn't work for us. We had nothing in the pyramid that worked really well. We went to literally hundreds of trance channeling sessions. I was never impressed with any of them. My major professor and his wife were impressed by some. My guess is because they talked about them a lot in their trance channeling. Maybe I wasn't impressed because they never talked about me. I was a lonely undergraduate student at the time in my first year and wasn't very important so I was never really mentioned in the trance channeling experiments that were done. So I wasn't impressed with that. We all tried spoon bending and key bending. Didn't work for us. We watched people do it but it never worked for us as individuals. And the last thing that we did was there was this idea that plants could feel plants could feel things that had they had senses and they had some rudimentary form of consciousness. So one of the experiments that we did we used several plants but the big one was a philodendron and we did it with two different philodendrons. We did the experiment three times and we had a copper shielded room a Faraday cage where subjects would sit. We put the philodendron in the room and we hooked it up to an eight channel physiograph which took readings from like the soil, from the plant itself, from leaves, from the stem, different areas of it. There was a full professor who ran the physiograph who stayed in the room with the physiograph and made a notation of the person who went into the room. There were six of us who got a piece of paper and five of the pieces of paper were blank. One of the pieces of paper said tear a leaf. So our instructions were this. If you have a blank piece of paper, you go into the room, you shut the door, you stay in the room for roughly two minutes and then you leave. If your piece of paper says tear of leaf, go in the room for two minutes, find a leaf that's not attached to the physiograph, pull a leaf off and stay in the room for two minutes and then leave. All right. So then we waited roughly an hour and then we basically duplicated our movements where we each went back into the room and sat. We didn't tear a leaf, nobody tore a leaf and the idea was this. Would the philodendron know when the person who tore a leaf came into the room? Would it know because that person had literally torn a leaf and caused it pain or damage? And the answer every time was yes, it knew. It didn't respond when those of us that just went in and sat down, it never responded to that. It's like it was neutral. It didn't care that we were there. It didn't nothing. But when the person who tore the leaf came in every time, it went off the charts. It's like it knew. Wow. That's the experiment. I love it. A great story about an interesting experiment. Wow. Well, this was amazing. I have been waiting for a couple of years for someone to really flesh out this paranormal connection with plasma, and you guys did an incredible job in this book, also with the shamanic overlap. It all ties together so well. I'm very thankful that you were willing to break it all down for this audience. Let people know where they can get more Dr. Gregory L. Little in their lives before we close it out. Well, just Google what he just said. Gregory L. Little. Put my initial in there, otherwise you'll get football players, but if you put Gregory L. Little in Google, you'll find me in the first couple pages. You can find just about whatever, everything you'll find it all there. That's the way. The books are available everywhere, not just Amazon, but Barnes & Noble, Books A Million, you name it, available everywhere. All the formats are available. If you got 10 hours in a car, buy the audio. I actually bought the audio myself, and I was astonished at the guy that did the audio recording, Micah Hanks. Oh, very professional. He pronounced things that I wouldn't even know how to pronounce. He wouldn't even begin to, and Andrew's part was especially interesting because Andrew has all those words from other countries in it, and Micah just did a great job at pronouncing them. So, yeah, just Google me. I'm there. Read the book, if you will. Critique it. Give us a review, if you will. More reviews, the better. But it's always a pleasure, man, and I appreciate you having me on three times. I feel very honored about that. I appreciate it, and this has just been really great. Thanks so much. I'd love to get a chance to talk to Andrew about his half of the book. Maybe you can put in a good word for me. I know he prefers the one-hour interviews, but I'm stuck with this. I got you. But I can at least throw it out there, and either way, great to talk to you again, and take care out there. All right, you take care, too. Give your wife and child, my hello. Yes, people. My man, the Greg Superior. Ah, he's the best. He has quickly become one of my favorite people to have on. And he is right about repeat guests. Outside of a handful of people, the vast majority are one-and-dones. Not that they aren't great, but so many guests focus on just one area or have only written one book that they might consider their master work, and it's usually very good, good, but we talk about it for two hours, and that's that. Dr. Little, though, has covered multiple topics that pair nicely with what we do around here, and he operates at a high level on all of them. I had mentioned to him right before recording that we had a pipe burst in the wall between my office and our kitchen, and that's been a big nightmare, and I've been trying to do my work the way I used to do it for years, jammed up in a corner in my bedroom. But it's all good. I really wasn't going to bore you guys with my life stuff, but that is what he was referring to at the beginning of the interview for those who were curious, and the show must go on, right? Really happy with this one, though. I have brought up this plasma aspect as often as I could ever since the Eric Dollard interview where he generated a little humanoid-shaped figure of light doing plasma experiments in the lab. If you remember, I asked Richard Dolan about the plasma paranormal overlap, and it resulted in our interview with the semi-anonymous guest, Kosh, who talked quite a bit about it. Obviously, I am but a simple stoner podcast host, and I don't know why, but this has resonated as true to me for quite some time, and having Dr. Little apply his talents to the topic is really great. Of course, he too has been thinking along these lines, and way longer than I have because his early books on the paranormal touch on that. So kudos to him, for sure. But this plasma thing does help me to make sense of the natural hotspots overlap and the sort of indigenous shamanism kind of stuff. That there are these ritual places where these things can be called over and over and sustained. Longer contact can be established. And, you know, it's not a total solve for the paranormal. There are still plenty of mysteries as to what motivates these intelligent plasmas and what they can do and why they show up. We're kind of just saying, hey, paranormal entities might be made of plasma. And it's like, oh, cool. Well, that's something. It's interesting to me, and I don't really understand why it bothers a lot of paranormal researchers, but I have seen the evidence that it does. But getting back to the natural hotspots and indigenous shamanism, there is one paragraph from the book that I didn't read in the interview, but I liked a lot, where Dr. Little writes, The elite of ancient cultures used natural landforms to connect with the time forces, but it became known to shamans that landforms could be shaped to allow the masses to commune with these spiritual forces. Many of the most incredible sites, such as the circle and octagon earthworks in Newark, Ohio, were made in a way to evoke, contain, and control spiritual manifestations. Earth, as the most primordial spiritual substance, was carefully piled in specific formations as a barrier. Circular enclosures without an opening were made to confine the manifesting spiritual entities. Lines of parallel earthen walls were used to move both the spiritual forces and participants from one sacred location to another. Rituals that vibrated the electromagnetic web were used to connect with the time force. This knowledge was, and still is, known by the shamans and medicine people who are entrusted to maintain the connection. Medicine people and shamans understood that there were specific angles of earth and rocks that enhanced the effects of rituals and attuned the participants in such rituals to the time forces. I like that. I mean, he makes it seem so matter-of-fact. Doesn't he? And it explains a lot. It kind of aligns with the geometric aspects of occultism and the Pentagon usage. Only the Native Americans really did it at a much more epic scale. So to me, this felt like a pretty fresh take on things, and fingers crossed I can send an interview request to Andrew Collins and have him actually take me up on it, but we shall see. It is a marathon session around here. It's definitely turned off more than a few potential guests. But in higher side news, a lot of people have been very cool and supportive since the Kathy O'Brien wrap-up. I guess I was a bit down that day, and people reacted, but you know, it's hard not to be a little down after reading about nothing but that stuff for a couple of days in a row. But I just wanted to say I appreciate it, and it's all good. Plus members have even been as gracious as to suggest things like me taking a month off every year, or even going down to four shows a month, which is really over-the-top kind of them. I think no matter what a person does for work, it can become routine, and they can go through periods of being burnt out a little bit. But hey, with my job, I can just pivot over to something like this, and then I feel totally refreshed. And as good as the first hour was, in the second we added some great logs to the plasma fire. I asked if there's anything we could do to increase our cerebral magnetite. I think that's where the free plus hour split is going to be, and short answer is no. Spoiler alert. But we also talked about the imagination, thoughts, archetypes, and plasma beings, the importance of belief in these situations. I asked how do plasma being encounters overlap with good fortune and manifestation? Are the messages from the observer's mind, as well as just the physical representation of these things? We talked about the wild experiences of Emanuel Swedenborg, as well as the experience of Lou White Eagle, the Grand Potentializer, and the Little People. We talked about military research and weaponized plasma, which Dr. Little knew quite a bit about. And we also got into his experiment proving plant intelligence, intelligence, and of course, spoon bending and pyramid power. What show would be complete without it? But you know, I really don't need to take a month off or cut down to four shows a month. All I really need is for more free listeners to convert to plus and enjoy the longer episodes and for people to spread the word that we have a pretty good show here that stands out from the crowd. I guess reviews help too, but not really. I care more about spreading the word because when people hear THC, they usually like it. And who knows if we'll even be on iTunes in a couple of years anyway, so don't waste your time with a review if there's just somebody you can tell about the show. Although I'm sure if you had people you could tell about this show, you probably would have already. It's polarizing. I understand. But maybe if you have friends who are paranormally inclined, this is one episode that might be worth spreading around a little bit. It helps me, it would help Dr. Little, and it's just a fresh idea in a somewhat stagnant field, if you ask me. So, you can look like Mr. Cool Guy bringing it to the table. And if we go to the calendar at HiresideMeetups.com, we do have some events to plug, which I really appreciate. I feel kind of dumb when we have this pretty large audience and I can't even plug one fan meetup? Don't put me in that position, guys. But in the next couple of days, we have two. June 8th, that's actually today. Okay, this event is happening right now. The Milwaukee Metaphysical Society, not the Milwaukee you're thinking of, this is Milwaukee, Oregon. And I don't know how much awareness there is about this one. See, this is why it's important to make these events at least a week or two out so people can hear the announcement on air a couple of times. But I'm going to go and tweet about this and hopefully some people show up for you. But then tomorrow, we have the East Austin Easy Tiger Higher Side Meetup. They say, hey, I'm a new THC Plus member and I know we have the Higher Side Soup Meetup on the 25th, but I'm scheduling this in response to Greg's tweet asking us to get more stuff on the calendar. Well, thank you. They say, I don't expect anyone to show up, but I'm giving it a shot. Well, come on, people. Don't leave my man hanging here. But he says he's going to be camping out at a picnic table in the courtyard. Just ask the person at the entryway for the Higher Side Chats Meetup and they should bring you right to them. In case anybody does come, Easy Tiger offers a little bit of everything. Beer, coffee, bratwurst, sandwiches, etc. I figure we could discuss recent shows and whatever you've been reading or looking into in the worlds of esoterica, conspiracy, the paranormal, etc. Plenty to discuss. Well, cheers to that. There's always plenty to discuss. Go on out there if you're in the Austin area. Make a new friend. My man put himself out there. I'm happy to plug it and maybe some of the people that I'll be meeting on the 25th in Austin will get a little preview meet and greet before we before that happens. Takes a little bit of balls to put yourself out there and make a meetup and go to a place and see if anyone shows up. So, help them out. And if you're not in Milwaukee, Oregon or Austin, Texas, then go ahead and hit up that calendar. Make a free meetup at your local watering hole and the people will come. It's good fun. And with that, I'm getting out of here. I love you guys. Big thanks to Dr. Little. Check out Origins of the Gods. You will not be disappointed and I'll see you next time. I've done my part. Your move, otherworldly intelligences, time beings, and plasma summoning shamans. Your fucking move. From space it was falling, it's light started calling, it's making crop circles again. Just as I was looking up, it showed me all the hidden stuff, and now I'm all enlightened and zen. Silver ships or cars set me straight. You two go, when you see the sauces glow, one by one, we'll all end up awake. Dumb starts to die. Come.