From Summoning to Surveillance: The Hidden War with the Phenomenon

This is Ross Coulthard and you are listening to That UFO Podcast. Let's dive in then to listener questions because I got so many in for you and I try not to duplicate what we discussed last time. So, Reid, from Nick. Nick says, I'm curious to get Reid's thoughts on the summoning aspect of the phenomenon, especially as it relates to the history of esoteric or occult magic rituals. There are notable similarities between what the folks at Skywatcher describe and the writings and practices of John Dee and Alistair Crowley. Good question. From my study of the phenomenon, the entities behind this are highly telepathic. They have found ways, neurological and technologically, to break through whatever barrier exists that exists over us currently between mind and higher planes of reality. And so they are able to engage in those higher planes, to traverse them to some extent, to communicate them, to communicate over them. And so that there would be intense interest in certain psi signaling that we could put off in the field is no surprise to me. So the use of psionics to put off a signal, to engage in a bidirectional interface psychically or psionically, I think it's being demonstrated. We have yet to see the data on what that looks like and how it works. But anecdotally, it seems to be a real possibility. And I think we're gaining better insight into the way we function in terms of extrasensory perception, you know, the work with disabled autistics in terms of anticipating, you know, non-visible language and interacting non-verbally and so forth. So, you know, I think it's well within the zone of possibility. Is it within the zone of probability is the question. Increasingly, I would say yes. In the testimonial record with experiencers, a majority, must be a majority, speak of some sort of in-the-mind engagement where information is given and sent. So, you know, would whatever this intelligence is, would it take an interest in our existing spiritualistic practices where we open the mind to other planes of reality, engage with non-physical entities? Why not? I mean, if we're essentially, if that's where we're opening the door and you're capable of going through that door, why would you not want to? Would there even be the promotion of people doing, the promoting of people doing spiritualistic practices, seances, you know, possibly? And I do hear anecdotally that in places of high UAP activity, there are individuals who are promoting the use of those group practices to open up the mind to communicate with other forms of life. And in some cases, that intersects with what are commonly understood as the physical morphologies of NHI. So, yeah, I mean, are we basically, we're already functioning. We have a foot in both reality, the physical, the non-physical. We just don't account for the non-physical. The engagement is intended to fully engage us, right? And so would NHI circumvent the physical and prefer the psychological or the psi level? I think that's very plausible. Yeah, I think I look at the idea that something, perhaps some of these entities are almost administrators for reality. If you want to look at it from like a matrix point of view, can, are some of these craft traversing, not kind of space and time, but they're just coming through to the computer game. They're entering both the admin, you know, admin, admin for password and username. And they come through, again, if you like your matrix analogies, are they in the matrix, you know, Morpheus and the crew. I love the matrix movies, folks, all of them. Not the fourth one, that doesn't exist. Just the first three, the trilogy and the anime. But the idea that they're coming through and freeing people from the matrix and taking them through to the real world, is there an element of UFO sightings or experiences are taking a free people's minds a little bit and it can't all be done at once. It has to be done in small numbers. But yeah, the summoning aspect of it's a strange one. There's a lot of different questions that arise for me on this one, Reid. I'll just get your thoughts on one. If summoning these objects works, how does it work? Say Skywatcher has the dog whistle technology. If we all have a dog whistle and we all turn it on at the same time, are 7 billion craft appearing above everyone at the same time? I don't know if we can trigger the response of the phenomenon like we think we can. I mean, again, they have a choice too, right? So it's not like a mechanistic phenomenon where if we do X, it responds Y. So this is where I recommend to step back and to look at the most plausible explanations for why this engagement is taking place in the first place. I do think there are indications of planetary interest and the intention to establish a presence long term and to influence our technological course as a species. So if that was your intent and if you had the ability to engage with people in a psychic fashion, to plant thoughts, to engender trust, build a relationship, possibly have people re-express or re-communicate certain things you want them to, to affect the information space, then I think that's, you know, then a kind of a psionic engagement is plausible. But, you know, they don't want to be seen and perceived en masse like that apparently. And so I don't think we could summon a mass appearance event ourselves. And this is the question is, you know, are we summoning them or are they summoning us, right? You putting out that signal and they appear, right? We think, oh, wow, we can summon them. We have agency. We have control in this interaction. Of course, go listen to what Skywatcher has said. And, you know, they've been hit with a directed energy weapon. They've had electromagnetic interference, which is something that many field research groups have reported, that equipment goes offline the moment you begin even to think of capturing it. The moment you think to look in the binoculars, the thing disappears. And that's not just, you know, one person or an anecdote. That's a pattern. So who is, yeah, who's calling who in this interaction? What information are they gaining from us, right? Is there some sort of psychological kind of surveillance or information collection taking place? Are they looking for certain populations that have a certain specific profile? Like if you were, you know, herding the, you know, if you were the cattle herder and you look at the herd, you see, you know, an animal that has the best physical attributes that you want to replicate forward in terms of new lineages, you know, you have that bull or that female mate with another, right? You, that's not even hybridization, right? That's just preferring traits over through selection. And so is there some effort to shape the nature of the human species over a very long game approach by selectively engaging with certain groups, certain ethnicities, certain psychological profiles over time? You know, that's what we do with other forms of life. Yeah. And if another form of life came here and had dominance technologically over us and wanted to steer us, whether in our interest or not, I would imagine selectively engaging and different populations and possibly having certain groups go farther than others would lead to those preferred outcomes. Yeah, I wonder from a human perspective, similarly, there are tribes across the world. I was talking to my little boy about this. There was a, he was watching a YouTube video and it talked about, you know, when you get these Christian missionaries and the attempt to go and make contact with a tribe who has never seen technology, they are in the deepest, darkest Brazilian rainforest and someone has the great idea, I'm going to grab this Bible and I'm going to go and talk to these people who have no concept of what I'm wearing, how I'm acting, how I'm speaking, what I'm trying to do and they end up getting shot and killed by spears, bows and arrows and whatnot. It's almost how would we as a species begin to assimilate them into the Western culture? How would you take one of those tribes and dump them into Manhattan and go, okay, let's just train you, let's teach you how to live like us. It would be nearly impossible to do that, wouldn't it? It'd be very difficult. I mean, don't underestimate the long game. We always think in the short game, right? If they're not attacking us, they must be here to help us. There's been no overt hostility, therefore there can't be any hostility. And there's about a thousand other possibilities there that are not being considered. And so, you know, over 500 or 800 years, could we be engaged selectively, certain groups be activated psionically, certain information infused into the human, you know, information landscape, new, you know, symbols, new memes begin to spread. You know, religions start to absorb the concept of NHI and that maybe other super entities are the authors of scripture, are the angels that have been seen for millennia, right? So that their reality begins to weave into our own. We recompose in a kind of revisionist sense, human history, we revise it out of its foundations in human isolation into its potential truthful or not truthful human longstanding engagement with NHI. When I say not truthful, right, any entity can come today and say that they were the ones that we see in the ancient cave art. They were the ones who spoke to the prophets in the Bible, et cetera, right? How do we verify claims like that? Well, when you look at the narrative spreading today, there are a lot of claims about how NHI are the origin of just about everything, right? So where is that coming from? So is there an attempt to kind of shape both human experience, you know, which begins at the level of consciousness, human activity, I should say information, what we say, there's what we think, there's what we experience, and then there's the ideas that are generated from that experience, and then there's our communication of them as information. And then everything that that information builds out as a civilization, right? A slow percolation and a slow and subtle reshifting of the human journey off its former footings and onto another set of footings, which we have to assess, are those, is that what we want to be the prevailing kind of principled truths that guide our life on earth? So this is where we have to claim a degree of agency and psychological sovereignty to, in this potential interaction with other forms of intelligent life. I grabbed this next question off of the YouTube comments from Peanut and Jelly, asked, is a non-human origin soul inhabiting an earth body human? Just curious what you think. So that idea that the soul is something else and say that's kind of meat sack. Right, right. I mean, in my ontology and my spirituality, I think it's absolutely possible that what we are, being beyond body and brain, and even mind, even the kind of like the conditioned consciousness that may exist beyond our body and our brain, could be not fully, could not be bounded, may not be bounded only in human terms. So have we lived lives elsewhere? Possibly. You know, we might wake up and find ourselves in a metropolis when we thought we were sleeping in, you know, the middle of nowhere. And so then what is our relationship spiritually to those other forms of life? Is it really, you know, are we living on the other side of concrete walls and we've literally never seen them, never been over there, never been them? Right. So I think that's an expanded sense of human spirituality and the divine that is very important. Functionally, however, you know, I don't, I do think we should be mentally disciplined in how we imagine NHI inhabiting us. Right. So, you know, and this is part of the problem with disclosure is how do you disclose, this is a question to the viewers, how do you disclose the presence of human looking non-humans? Right. Because from what I'm hearing, that may be a reality. There may be human looking non-humans. Does that mean that there was, you know, this whole soul containerizing thing of, you know, an NHI soul was placed inside of a human body and mind as part of some kind of abduction procedure? What does that mean? Is there a hybridization program? How longstanding is it? Is there one program or several? Right. And so, you know, these are possibilities that extend logically, actually, from the acknowledgement of presence, not just existence of NHI, but presence on earth. If they're present here, have they affected our genetic lineages such that we have expressed on multiple pathways and that there are now multiple types of humans on earth? It's a logical extension of the acknowledgement of presence. So I think it's worth considering. So I don't know quite if the viewer is asking this at a kind of a theological level or at an urgent kind of tactical level. But unfortunately, I think, you know, at the tactical level that may be possible. No, thank you for that. And Algo says, thank you, Reid, for coming back to the show. I have two questions and hope you've got time for both. I'll be the judge of that, Algo, but I'm sure Reid has time for both. First one, do you think it would be better for us if there were one or more NHI factions to deal with? That's a good question. I've never been asked that before. Well, for better or worse, I don't think we're going to be asked. I think, you know, by all accounts, there are multiple, multiple physical morphologies, possibly, well, definitely differing, multiple differing intents. I'm not sure it's a rainbow, right? It might be a two or three colored intent versus a rainbow of intent. Would it be easier for us, yes, to have one entity to engage with? I would say probably. You know, one form of life to figure out, one set of intentions to decode, one set of diplomatic arrangements, one information sharing, resource sharing, you know, kind of regime to work out. Multiple becomes very difficult. And also discerning friend from foe becomes difficult. you know, discerning, you know, in a false flag scenario, you know, if NHI are flying each other's flags, how on earth will we be able to decode that? And so it becomes almost, this is a question, is how would we ever be able to corroborate the claims made by any physically engaging NHI, right? Given their ability, apparently, low observability and cloaking, it's one of the five observables, right? So if they can cloak, I could imagine they could fly a different flag, right? And we have heard in the history that UAP craft have apparently been able to spoof or mimic prosaic craft. And so could they mimic each other's craft? I mean, gosh, come on folks, right? Almost certainly they could. So this is for the policy side of the conversation, how do you manage internationally in the human interest the presence and prolonged activity of non-human technological biological entities considering all of the potential hazards that ensue. Everything from bacterial or viral biome of a non-human origin entering the earth system, influencing technology, making transactions with certain rogue states on earth. It's almost the list, it's a laundry list. And so, you know, one of the potential policies that may have to be considered is a forcible remove and reset of non-human craft from the human earth system until such time as there's an international, you know, regime in place to interface diplomatically with whatever this presence is. That's fair. I'll go expands then. He says, question two, in your model for NHI contact, you seem to envision that a treaty between us and NHI would be negotiated between treaties between nation-states. I'll suggest another scenario. What if NHI choose another approach that unfortunately was adopted in imperialism and colonialism? That is, to co-opt the local elites in order to exert their control. That would be easier for them because then they would not have to deal with the complexity of humanity at large, but would have to deal only with a few that can essentially be bought with access to power, technology, or wealth. How should we react if we were to learn that elites of any government were being co-opted by NHI? Great question. And I actually do not think it would make sense for the NHI to engage NATO or the UN or the EU or the World Health Organization from what I understand that has not happened. There has been no, to my knowledge, overture made to intergovernmentals. There have been overtures made to governments and more specifically non-governmentals, not the intergovernmental organizations. So, you know, I would say it's in our best interest to take this to the intergovernmental space, to take this to the floor of the United Nations, and I do hope that the current administration, through whatever disclosures they make, drive it into the lap of that entity and others like it. So that's on our side. On their side, it's an important thought experiment. If you wanted, again, to establish permanent presence, to secure lines of influence with the least amount of energy inputs and infrastructure required with the highest chances of success and low detectability without raising the ire or the reactivity of the local population, what do you do? And that is the colonial model, right? Now, some would say, well, these are non-human entities. They're not going to do what we do. And I contest that point. If you're a non-human in a human space and you're trying to enact a human outcome, you might do what humans do. You might use the playbook. You might use psychological operations, information shaping operations. You might use some of the insights from the colonial era in which a small exploratory resource-driven group like the Dutch East India Company would set up a small forward operating base, a foothold on a new continent, and begin to influence leadership, would begin to hybridize in the sense of interbreed with the locals, and would exploit local division and vulnerabilities and local religious customs and begin to really install a new operating system on top of that chaotic breakdown of whatever indigenous belief system existed, right? So to install a new book of scripture, a new book of origin, et cetera. So I mean, those are tried and true tactics, and if we've been observed for a long time, even back into the 1800s or 1700s, all of that would have been seen, and its success would have been noted. Colonialism was almost universally successful in the local environments in which it took place. There was Ethiopia, standout countries like that, or Japan, that by and large resisted colonial expansion for a period. There were brief and intermittent revolutions against colonial power like in Haiti, but by and large it was a very successful playbook. So are we seeing any sort of subversive activity at play? By the nature of being covert, not overt, we would have to look for it to see it. It's not going to show itself to us in broad daylight. Interesting. This one is from an anonymous listener. Hi Reid, so many abductions touch on out-of-body experiences and the consciousness topic as well as traumatic experiences. If these NHI are ambivalent or malevolent, why would they be bringing that stuff up? Is it a tool to manipulate us or are they trying to enlighten us? Also, why do abductions often conclude with apocalyptic warnings? If the abductees are meant to forget their experience completely, it doesn't make sense. Yeah. Well, yeah, great question. I don't think anything in the patterned activity of UAP suggests ambivalent intent. It's a word I've actually never considered as a plausible scenario. I think it's highly intentful activity. Malevolent, as those who follow my work know, I don't recommend an evil or malevolent black and white dichotomy. I think detrimental beneficial is a much better way to frame it because then we're talking about human outcomes. Not the consciousness or cognition of NHI. So I don't do the benevolent malevolent thing. I look at beneficial detrimental and the rule stick is regards to a set of commonly held human values and principles like security, stability, and sovereignty and we can then judge UAP activity against that. Why would there be the activation of an NDE or out-of-body experience? I'm not an expert in that field, so I can only speculate as to why that happens and exactly how it happens. But, you know, again, if you want to give an individual an identified person who's been identified for whatever reason, again, ethnicity, nationality, religious disposition, psychic abilities, if you want to give that person an overwhelming experience that in a sense rewrites the operating system, replaces their former belief structure with a new one, which, you know, I've talked to a number of abductees whose lives were utterly changed through one encounter. They've never been the same since. They've been psychically much more active, much more intuitive, much more hypersensitive to the environment. They feel like they're getting communication all the time and that they're not really able to stop that from happening. Okay? So something has happened to irreversibly change a person's internal composition, right? Could an NDE or some sort of powerful experience be a part of, you know, not just a consciousness raising experience, really a consciousness altering one. I think consciousness, I've heard this many times, they're raising our consciousness. Yeah, that's a statement of descriptive value to something that needs to be considered more broadly as simply an event with a powerful impact on the consciousness period. Whether it's an uplifting one is rather subjective, right? We can make each other feel great with chemicals and other things all day long, but is the event a good one? Is it lawful? That's another question. But yeah, so I mean there's obviously some sort of engagement taking place that's not just physical in nature to what end and I would love to have a better understanding of how experiencers have been changed and a better kind of objective way of assessing whether that's beneficial or detrimental. Good answer. Christian asks, do you think this phenomenon is something that will stay covert affecting 1 or 2% of the population as it's done mostly for our history or will it climax at some point where it will affect us all? Today we see mystery drones affecting many airports and back during the December flap people were freaking out. What's your take? Yeah, I would not be surprised if the phenomenon goes into latter phases. There seems to be a phased approach to humanity and it seems to be walking in step with the technological strides that we're making as well as the shifting nature of power. Great power competition over technology and data. Let's be two of those main variables. So would it go into a more overt demonstration of presence? Well, you know, if you can begin to bound a zone of probable explanations for intent, you can begin to ask the question, well, would they want to do a mass appearance? Now, presently a mass appearance would probably cause humanity to come together, to bind together and to begin to scrutinize the non-human activity more closely. I'm not sure that's what the phenomenon would want, right? And so how does broad blanket human awareness of them, not just again existing or being present, but being active in the world, benefit any kind of effort at a long game, long range, you know, effort to establish presence and to influence human outcomes. I don't see it doing that. I would not personally anticipate a mass appearance event unless it was used in response to human-driven disclosures that were not desirable. So that'd be my take. Yeah. I don't know. I think if you go along the lines of the phenomenon being one thing, then perhaps I think that has to come into it. But if you then look at different factions, multiple phenomena at play, there would have to be this grand plan and it does start to get into Galactic Federation territory if you go down that route, very Star Trek, that they're all speaking together, they're all working on this. Let's take humanity through these stages of evolution, industrial revolutions and then technological revolutions, biological revolutions. I don't see that being the case. Perhaps there is that one dominant NHI body, another that's kind of there or in the midst, not to spoil it, but you mentioned this guy. If I may, I just want to clarify, I do not see the phenomenon as one thing and I do not see the NHI as one force or one group. And so I'm specifically talking about ETI right now, extraterrestrial intelligence. So non-terrestrial, physical, biological, non-human entities and this appearing multi-racial, multi- species, organized kind of composition that's been reported by many experiencers, seeing different classes of beings together, doing different functions. and so in my view, if I think of an interstellar space where these forms of life have been evolving for a very long time, where it's almost like we're going from an island reality to a continental one. On an island, it's just you and your own. On a continent, there's been interaction, mixing, melding, competing, collaborating for potentially millions of years. I would imagine that life out there has found a way to hierarchically structure the way it works, so it's not a free-for-all. And I wouldn't imagine engaging humanity would be a free-for-all where there's hundreds of NHI and they're all doing whatever they want with no impact on each other. If that were the case, I think we would actually see a lot more conflict in the air of different craft competing for space and for access and not really caring if we humans saw what they were doing and woke up to it. There seems to be much more careful, again, deep, penetrating approach to engaging humanity that keeps hard evidence out of public purview, that covers tracks very effectively, that selectively identifies human partners, cultivates them, builds an apparatus, a human apparatus, to manage those persons' access and information to what the phenomenon is. And that's what we see, right? So we don't see a chaotic free-for-all. We see a very carefully and precisely engineered kind of engagement. Now, some would say, well, no, psychically, it seems to be more of a free-for-all. And that's our subjective kind of personal take, right? But collectively, you know, the airwaves are not on fire with, you know, millions of people saying they're having dreams about aliens every night, right? I think a lot of people probably are having those kinds of dreams, but the way that they express that, how they transmit that seems to be kind of like a very careful process. So somebody asked, you know, why do many experiencers report having being shown a vision of planetary destruction or of great floods, great fires, et cetera? You could take that in one of two ways. You could say, okay, well, they're warning us of the outcomes of our human activity on Earth left unrestrained. They're trying to impress upon us the risk of our human activity, and I think that may be at play. On another side, it's creating a powerful emotional experience that bonds you to the other entity and to whatever other information that they are conveying to you, right? So they're putting you in a state, a fear, a highly fearful state where you are potentially more receptive to information and may enter into an attachment syndrome with the entity that has, sorry, but by all accounts kidnapped you. I mean, you're in a state of being kidnapped when they show this to you. So any good information you have to take with a grain of salt. Yeah, I think sometimes people forget the word abduction, what it actually means and the connotations of it. It's almost like, oh, I've been taken by some entities. Yeah, you've been abducted. You know, it's like you say, kidnapping. Let's broaden the lens as well. And let's just acknowledge that if the abduction phenomenon is real, it is a sub-phenomenon of a missing person's phenomena. So it's people are going missing, some are returned, and those individuals, if they come into conscious recollection of the experience, are an abductee, right? But we do not understand the full nature of who's being taken from the earth or into facilities at the bottom of the ocean or elsewhere, what is done to them, what if people resist, what if they are deemed non-compliant or not good subjects of study, what if there are unexpected medical implications of whatever is done, right? Mistakes. So, you know, that's a question. And we have really, you know, when you look at human trafficking and the disappearance of human civilization, sorry, human civilians, it's endemic globally. It's not well understood. There are many different criminal groups involved in human trafficking globally. And so, you know, if you wanted to disappear humans in a systematic fashion, it's pretty much a free-for-all. You could take as many people as you would ever want, and we would have very little information or knowledge of that. We'll finish up kind of going a bit full circle back to Age of Disclosure, a bit of David Grush. Dave Smethurst has been in touch and sent me a list of questions. Dave, I've picked a couple of these to finish up with, so thank you very much. First one, Dave says, I think that it's entirely possible that the legacy program has developed a whole range of resources and capabilities, both defensive power and infrastructure, based on recovered NHI tech. They also may have treaties with NHI that govern the deployment of such tech, plus more adversarial relationships. How does Reid plan to incorporate this possibility into his investigations? Yeah, I think at this point, at this stage in the game, the non-human and the human have come together in ways that would shock us if we really, truly knew the dimensions of that. You know, I did take note in the documentary, I can't remember who said it, but I wrote down the quote, the legacy program is in a longstanding war with other nations, which think about that, a non-nation state, non-state actor, the legacy program, is in war with other nations, nation states. So if that's the case, we need to seriously examine our current over 90 hot conflicts on earth, look at combat zones, look at mercenary organizations, look at who and what is fueling these armed conflicts and to understand the dimensions that may be at play regarding recovering crash vehicles, undermining certain nations' technological advances from reverse engineering efforts. So it's an absolute mess. It's going to be highly complex and to fully suss it out would be very difficult, which is why I think taking, stepping back and broadening the lens from legacy program, U.S. government, et cetera, and looking at the whole species engagement taking place and devising broad solutions that can then trickle down into very complex political arenas, I think is going to be necessary. If we stay stuck within one political arena, you're no longer talking to that of others, and you may inadvertently fuel one competitive angle over another. And so I'm, of course, a huge supporter of restoring federal oversight, of declassifying overclassified information and protecting whistleblowers, and it's my hope that at least this government can gain control over this shadow world, this permanent state that's been created, fueled unlawfully with taxpayer funds to keep secret realities that really must not be secret. I mean, and to those who are inside those worlds who think, no, no, no, we can keep this secret and win the war, you can't. I'll just say that. I know you can't. And I know you're trying. I know there are groups deep within the U.S. military apparatus who are trying to fight the phenomenon. You will not win without public acknowledgement and public involvement. The citizenry have got to be a part of this. Otherwise, they will be won by other forces, whether foreign adversary, human or non-human. Others will wage an information war on the U.S. population. And you can think you can downcraft, but somebody else wins hearts and minds. And so for our own leadership to abandon winning hearts and minds and to be so cagey and so cynical as to think that they can either fight this in private or be rewarded in private by working with the phenomenon, I think, is delusional and dangerous. And so that's why I and I know many others in my network are ardent advocates for full disclosure of this to the public and to the global public. So I think that's there are so many compelling factors. I'm aware of some. I'm sure others have other parts of the story. But this has to go global. It has to go full society. And I would say relatively soon. Yeah, I think that idea of the legacy program almost it's a it's almost a disarming name for it, that it's it's a room. It's a boardroom that you could go and if you find it, you can lock it up. You can destroy the filing cabinets. You can throw the chairs away. You can revoke the access and perhaps it would be better. And I hope I'm getting this right, Reid, in some of what you're saying as well. But even my own thinking, it's almost better to think of the legacy program as a small rogue nation where there's no border. It can go where it wants. People have unmarked passports. They have unlimited capital. They have their own defense. They have their own ammunitions, their own equipment, their own technologies. They are without classification systems, without law. And it's not just a small group who are keeping a UFO secret. It is almost that breakaway civilization idea that is is so powerful that we underestimate when folks are asking a Chris Mellon, a Lou Elizondo, a Jay Stratton, just naming names. You know, you're fighting a legacy program that we really don't comprehend what exactly they're up against. Yeah. And I'm curious, legacy to what? What is the modern program? And is there some sort of demarcation being spoken to in that? Because, yes, it sounds highly antiquated when, to my knowledge, it's still very active. I mean, when Lou Elizondo says in the film that a committee of 27 individuals were tasked with silencing Dave and himself, you know, I think that that is true. And so what kind of a committee is that? And are those committee heads, are those the puppets? Those are the agency leads. They've been appointed. Yep. Right. Inside government appointed from outside government. Yeah. And so how much has this disgusting digestive system externalized itself from the host entity and is now consuming things out in the wild and using the host, the government, the elected government, as kind of an avatar to do its work? It's kind of a dark image to imagine, but yeah, I mean, does it have its own military capabilities, its own airports, its own aircraft? Yeah. You know, I took note in the documentary, the comments by a former FAA lead. Well, actually his comments, but I think it was Jay Stratton who said that the FAA intentionally does not seek to identify craft that are not putting off a prosaic transponder signal, a signal to say, I'm an aircraft of this type, this model, make, et cetera. If they're not putting it out, they intentionally do not detect that craft. I think of the statements by Jim Schell out of the US Space Force and Missile Space Command recently on LinkedIn, talking about a control system put in place to obfuscate our space-based observing capabilities to potentially intentionally not find UAP. So it's like, has this program, this rogue actor or nation state essentially installed into the operating system of our government, maybe multiple key software that works against its own ability to run processes and to basically, because that has to be done. I mean, if UAP are transiting the earth to the scale of thousands per year, thousands of transits, it might actually be way higher than that. How do you keep NASA, the FAA, all the Space Missile Command community from not seeing that? We have to install almost like noise canceling technologies, right? To cancel out the detection of that information. So it would blow our minds to know how far and how deep this goes. That's my sense. Fighting it on its terms, it's going to be a losing battle. I think, you know, we've seen that since 2017. You see that in the exasperation of Lou and others in the documentary and the congressional reps involved. They're exasperated. They just can't take this any farther. And so then what do we do? What agency have we not yet claimed? And that's where citizen advocacy is very important. Citizen science, the international conversation, basically, you know, taking this outside the purview of whatever that rogue actor might be and triggering events that are outside their ability to control. That's, I think, very important. Yeah, so there's also even a possibility within that not to go to science fiction, that some of the UAP interactions are actually the UAP themselves looking for this legacy program, this rogue state, because it's capturing their craft. It's performing experimentation, it's acting outside the bounds of any treaties that it should have. Right. And maybe the phenomenon itself or aspects of the UAP phenomenon are struggling to find the folks involved in this. Possibly. I mean, I think there's a collaborative infrastructure that's been built. I think, obviously, with that would be an oppositional one as well. I can't imagine it's all or nothing. You know, I think of the three body problem scenario, you know, of a rogue actor sending out a technological transmission. And then what they trigger is the arrival of something we would never want. Well, the legacy program is poking the belly of some beast. And, you know, we've heard from actually a variety of whistleblowers talk of NHI retaliation. Those are the words they use, that NHI have retaliated or intend to or that they're coming to recover technology and bodies from these organized groups that have claimed them. I mean, so regardless of intentions on both sides, that's a hazard, right? If there is a non-human force inbound due to the activities, the rogue activities of certain small groups who have done things that violate whatever it is, local laws or exo-political ones, and that there's going to be some kind of kinetic engagement that results from that, that's a crisis. I mean, that is a threat. And so, you know, this is why I do respect the work of those who have been cracking the nut on the cover-up. But I'll have, I'll be having Matt Ford and Chris Sharp on my show Emergent this Friday live. So bring your questions because they've done some really good work kind of beginning to penetrate and the nature of the cover-up and look at its overall structure and ask the right questions. So, but yeah, it's, it's, it's the, the legacy program is a threat. Whatever they are bringing or triggering or the reactions that they're causing from the non-human side may be a threat. Um, it's going to be very complex to, uh, to unravel this. Dave's second question was, in the age of disclosure, it's asserted that NHI are regularly surveilling our military and nuclear capabilities in a way a potential adversary would. Why does Reed think they continue to do this? Surely they know all they need to know. Is it performative for earth's governments and, or is it mainly linked to changes in nuclear deployment, which have the potential to put their undersea and underground infrastructure at risk or something else entirely? Great questions. Um, you know, great thinking, you know, I think any, any display of technology in a way that we can detect and that they know we can detect is a potential show of force. Um, I heard recently that one of the biggest, most overt drone swarm events to take place actually happened recently in Texas, uh, very recently. And so, you know, all of these flyovers of, of, you know, the flight lines of our most sensitive, uh, military aircraft. I don't know, it looks, it looks like a show of force to me. Um, and if you, if you, again, if you want to control the decisions of, of a federal government that intends to disclose potentially against the will of the legacy program and whatever it's non-human collaborative infrastructure is, what do you do? How do you intimidate that administration? Well, you cause daytime mass sightings that force that administration to credibly disclose to the public. But what if it can't do that? What if it's not ready to do that? What if it's out of phase with its own plans to do that? Right. So you create, you drive a wedge between citizens and government such that when they do ultimately disclose, people won't believe it. They'll believe that's the psychological operation. Um, and so if I were that force and I was seeing disclosure coming down the pipeline, I would trigger, um, those crises of confidence between citizenry and governments, um, to blunt the impact of the disclosure when it comes. Uh, are they still surveilling our nuclear deployments possibly, um, are they worried that we could enter a nuclear confrontation over Ukraine, for example, or in some sort of altercation in the South China seas? Possibly. I don't think we are outside the bounds of nuclear war, right? In fact, many would say we're as close to it as we've been in probably 20 years. So, you know, does the detonation, I mean, it's possible the detonation of nuclear weapons and the development of nuclear energy is what prompted, um, a next phase of the engagement to take place back in the mid 1940s. So if we're getting closer to a nuclear confrontation, even a small tactical one, I would imagine the phenomenon would be present and watching. And I think actually looking for anomalous activity over conflict zones, uh, and over installations with forward deployed nuclear warheads would be very fruitful citizen led, uh, detection work. I think there's an element, an argument that, for example, the tic-tac objects or some of these, these NHI craft being drones of non-human origin. I'm not saying, uh, foreign adversarial technologies, but they are, they are picking up an increase in our change in our technologies, how they are powered. So, you know, the, the Nimitz Princeton was a nuclear powered craft, um, aircraft carrier strike group. They have nuclear weaponry potentially on board. So that would then draw these drones. If they're based, let's just go purely hypothetical. They are based underwater. Um, they can produce these things on mass, go up and keep an eye on those. You then have these nuclear strike groups all across the world. You have these, uh, bombers constantly in the air. You have them under the water and various submarines that are being, that are being, yeah, nuclear submarines being tracked by, by very large vehicles underwater moving very fast. And then all these conflict zones. So look at Ukraine, Russia, uh, are you not, you're not telling me that us and China do not have hundreds, if not thousands of various spy drones and whatnot, again, with maybe all different kind of signatures or propulsion methods. I'm not saying anti-gravitics, but different ways to keep things in the air for a long time. Again, potentially some form of, of nuclear energy. And again, that draws these objects in because there's just a, an automatic system where, uh, non-human entities that were here a long time ago or are still here are keeping an eye on the planet. And the way to do that is send these things out whenever you see a nuclear signature, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. I mean, they're, they're probably responding to techno signatures put off by nuclear power and, and I don't know, I don't know how it works, but you know, um, whatever, whatever signatures a nuclear warhead, uh, puts off. Um, or they've already basically surveilled the full capability set and they're just monitoring deployment and location for instantaneous intelligence. Um, you know, it's obviously we're under some, some, some form of surveillance. Um, is it, is it the preparation of the battle space as Lou Elizondo has called it? Is it the ISR intelligence surveillance reconnaissance activities of what we would normally see from a foreign adversary? Um, from, from what I've seen, it does comport to that, uh, in some ways. And, and the question is then, okay, so they, they are surveilling these operations. How would they ultimately intervene? The word intervention is coming up a lot these days. That's a word that my father, Marshall Summers has been using for well over 30 years. And it's interesting to see a lot of people talk about intervention, intervention into our nuclear capabilities. Um, intervention to stop nuclear hostilities, or more recently intervention into our conflict between us and them up above. So, um, you know, how would they intervene? What would the mechanism look like? Um, interesting, uh, just anecdotally, I don't like to share, I don't like to talk about Hollywood movies very often in the context of this phenomenon because it's over, it's overdone and it doesn't help. But I do think a lot of signaling to the public has taken place in the mainstream media and, and out of Hollywood. And, uh, you know, I recently watched this film, the house of dynamite, which is on Netflix and man, great film. But the fundamental narrative twist is that something happened in our space observing systems to disable us from identifying the point of origin after the launch of an intercontinental ballistic missile at a U.S. city. So basically ICBM gets launched, it's detected, but for some reason there's missing information as to where it was launched from, which means the U.S. cannot fire back. Right. And so that's the ultimate death knell to, to nuclear deterrence, to, to mutually assured destruction. And again, I, I don't want to, I don't want to draw a, draw a line of connection because there, I don't know if there is one. I really don't. But I go back to those comments by Jim Schell about a control system put in place to obfuscate our space-based observing capabilities. And I say, well, by golly, if somebody wanted to prevent the U.S. from firing back, uh, that'd be a great way to do it. And so, you know, our, our, is a non-human intelligence, uh, not just monitoring, but basically preparing their, their, the mechanisms by which they would prevent, uh, an effective exchange or would allow one country to fire and not the other. Um, or to use basically that scenario to declare their presence in peaceful manner, to say, look, we just saved 5 million lives by stopping that warhead. So who wants to talk? Clearly you guys are warlike and unable to govern yourselves. How about talking to us? We have solutions. Do you need solutions? Oh, you have a climate crisis you can't fix, right? Um, you know, we, we can geoengineer. We can, we can for sure bring the environment back to what it was. Um, oh, AGI is out of control. It's running your entire societies to catastrophic levels of uncontrollability. Well, talk to us because we have all of that infrastructure ready to install. Um, you know, little do we know that, that they helped bring us to that point, to that brink of, of, uh, of, of, of the loss of human control. Um, you know, I'm not saying that's the case, but I think that's a plausible scenario where, you know, what's driving us in the direction of these anti-human, these fundamentally, um, um, against the human interest kind of type decisions, well, something might be doing it that's non-human in origin. You know, you know, this rapid race to AGI, which by some estimates will cause a global collapse because it will run out of control. Um, and, and I mean, what is fueling that? What, what is fueling that anti-human activity? Reid, what I'm going to do is ask you, um, I'm going to ask you one more question, but I'm going to keep that for the folks on the Patreon and stuff like that who pay for the podcast as a thank you. And there's a black, there's a black Friday offer on just now for folks who want to sign up and it's half price for your first month or first year. So thank you to everyone who does support the podcast financially. Um, so if you're watching on the free feeds or listening on the free feeds, um, being a scumbag and cutting you off now, but you've had a good two hours of content with the wonderful Reid Summers. Reid, um, just before we leave the good folks on the free feeds, do you want to just let them know how they can find you, how they can find your work? Yeah, for sure. I'm the host of Emergent, a podcast where I examine the potential interface between non-human and human. So I've got great guests. Um, I do a lot of original analysis on the show. So, uh, head over to Emergent. You can subscribe to the show and get notifications when I go live, which I do quite often. Um, I'm also working on, uh, supporting the UAP summit, uapsummit.org, uh, which will be a groundbreaking forum for, um, citizen-led detection and tracking of UAP. So you'll definitely want to be, um, a part of that and hearing about those new advances. I'm also, um, the chair of the Investigating NHI forum, which is hosted by the Human Institute. We, uh, we're gearing up for a lecture by Dr. Gary Nolan, looking at the research roadmap. For actually researching the fundamental existence of non-human intelligence. These are original presentations, original thought leadership by the best minds in the field. So you can head over to humaninstitute.org forward slash NHI, uh, to, uh, join those. They're all free and open to the public. Awesome. Well, if you're leaving this air, folks, thank you so much for joining us for this over two hours now with Reed Summers. Wonderful to speak to. And I think for me, Reed, um, there's a lot of originality in what you say, a lot of interesting ideas, a lot of original concepts. And I think this topic is filled to the brim with ideas and discussions that haven't taken place yet. I think there's an abundance of, of regurgitating similar conversations and whatnot out there. Um, but you're not someone I feel who does that. And it's always a joy to listen to you, your guests, your shows, and also to have you on and speak to me. So thank you. Thanks, Andy. Appreciate that a lot. Cheers, mate. Well, uh, if you want to sign up for the paid podcast, folks, free trials on Apple, free trials on Patreon, loads of offers and stuff. Same on YouTube. Um, stick with us. And I've got one more question for Reed. That's all for this episode of That UFO Podcast. Thank you so much for listening and watching. If you enjoyed the show, please follow, subscribe, and leave a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps others find the show. If you're watching on YouTube, hit like, subscribe, and turn on notifications so you don't miss future episodes. You can also support the show directly and get early access, add free episodes, and bonus content on Patreon, or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube memberships. All the links are over at thatufopodcast.com or in the show description below, along with merchandise and more. Don't forget, you can also pick up a copy of my book, Atlas of Unidentified Flying Objects, available now in all good bookstores and through online retailers, including Amazon. Big thank you again to all of you for listening and tuning in. Until next time, keep looking up. You never know what you might see.