Grusch vs Clapper, The Age of Disclosure & the Growing Divide in UFO Disclosure

Hi everyone and welcome back to that UFO podcast. My name as always is Andy and for this kind of news roundup and a look at the beginning of 2026 which is already strange, exciting, frustrating, all of the above and we're what 10 days in. I've got the wonderful Pavel from the Seco Activo podcast. Pavel welcome back mate. Thank you for having me again Andy. We should do this a series now. We should get you on more often. Listen honestly Pavel I like having you on because I don't agree with everything you say on the topic and I think that's incredibly healthy that it's not just a case of we both think the same things and you're pretty outspoken on X. You're happy to go in and say no I don't agree with that or do you know what I've got this opinion it might not be popular but it is what it is and I like that and I also appreciate you're as cold as me because you're sitting there with your jacket on and I'm in the shed with a heated blanket where what there's like a an eight hour time difference between us here but we are both well I'm I'm like minus six I think in the oh no you're you're you're way too much bro I uh and we're talking celsius I'm like 10 9 celsius right now which is oh god that's tropical that is tropical for you it's I would have shorts shorts and t-shirt sunglasses on like suntan lotion I burn scotch people burn I live near the desert and near the beach so it shouldn't be this called um I don't know yeah it's the controlling the weather probably I mean a joke but you never know I'll stick that on the the youtube title and maybe it'll get a few more thousand views um Andy and Pavel who's controlling the weather UFOs or someone else the flat earthers I'm kidding yeah the flat earthers and the sasquatch people are controlling the weather that's really fantastic for the algorithm if we just had all the I said this last week where I was like if I just hit like six seven kardashians taylor swift minecraft roblox early on it'll just like 12 million views overnight folks oh yeah um but there's a lot to talk about Pavel there is a lot um and even more so since I asked you to come on so you cover stuff on a real regular daily basis you know you're you're pretty quick proper journalist on this topic and I know you've been on the podcast before but very very quickly what's your background if someone's listening to this or watching this and they're not sure who Pavel is I am a sports journalist from Tijuana I grew up in Tijuana but I was born in Guadalajara in Mexico um I did sports journalism specifically football the real football not that astronaut broad big shit that people play in the US sorry Americans um yeah most of the audience sorry uh and I know I'm gonna get shit for this but I don't care really um so for 15 years I covered that and in 2021 I decided to open this podcast uh initially it was gonna be about consciousness and psychedelic substances and prevention more likely than just like promoting because um I went through a really difficult time and I wanted to share that experience with people what I went through I also went through really weird experiences during that time and even before that uh as a teenager and there's a lot of stuff there that made me think for a while that I was going crazy um and it and it turned out that I didn't uh so when I opened the podcast I about two years ago I decided to just start doing more regular um programming uh and videos and I completely left my career as a sports journalist um because I wanted to do this full time and now that I'm doing it um there's a lot that's happened so far that uh is getting weirder by the minute so that's that's about it yeah and if people want to hear a little bit more of background jump on Pavel's first appearance on the podcast but Pavel I like having you on because we're going to talk about a lot of news that's going on some of the stuff that's happening online um do you know what's funny I say that everything happens online now it's not things are just exclusively it's a different reality it totally is it's like you know like you see Wally and they're all plugged in on their computers and they're all fat and they're all just going around and yeah that's that's very much where we're heading towards like yeah um at least those people were warm um but listen I'm going to let the I'm very rarely do this but as the guest where do you want to start pick a piece of news and let's go for it I've got a load of topics down here I think that the Grush um calling out Clapper and also the film Age of Disclosure he called it out that's the way I saw it I think that would be a good a good way to start I think yeah definitely so um David Grush on Megyn Kelly show um it was like a two-part interview there's about what 12 minutes of actual interview if you go between both parts um but yeah I agree with you he um made some interesting comments Clapper is in the Age of Disclosure um major name in the UFO topic and the way Grush put it across was Clapper was a major get for the documentary everyone thought that when they first saw his name attached to it but he's very coy and aloof and he sort of plays off in the in the documentary the few comments he makes that he's kind of aware of this legacy program you know it's like yeah I've heard about it and it's important people you know look into this stuff Grush more or less just went no no no no no this guy was managing the legacy program this guy put people in place to manage parts of the legacy program so yeah he threw a bit of a spanner and that and that um and those works there um and again you've you've you've mentioned Pavel I called this out when when David Grush says quite early on I've not seen the Age of Disclosure um I found that really interesting yeah a few clips because I felt when they set the the piece up Megyn Kelly was almost introducing it as you're going to come on and talk about Age of Disclosure as if they expected Grush to be like yeah it's fantastic it's brilliant it's this and and he just goes um yeah I've I've not seen it I've seen clips but and that I think surprised me surprised probably Megyn Kelly and the crew what was your take on that really surprised at Grush not having seen it well I already knew a bit about what was going on in the background with uh Dan and the whole way in which the movie was put together uh when Grush said that and um expand on that gonna yeah let's just say that uh Dan um didn't exactly make a lot of friends while he was doing that I I would guess it's Dan Farah yes Dan Farah I would guess it's because of the secrecy that he had to keep um there was a lot of people that probably weren't happy with that um and to me uh it's pretty clear and I don't know if you agree that this film is not telling the full story of what's going on it's just telling a part of it and in my estimation I think that Grush wants for the full thing to come out not just for parts of it and that's one of the reasons I support what he does um I think that Matthew Brown and Dylan Borland are on the same boat on that and there are other folks within this movement that uh wanted to be in a controlled manner they fear societal disruption and uh we just saw like a couple of weeks ago Dylan Borland himself said that the societal disruption or the like catastrophic aspect of disclosure wouldn't be against like the population it would be against the established institutions and he said that the petrodollar was gonna be at risk if if total disclosure happened and I think that's where the discrepancy lies between these camps that are both seemingly pro-disclosure but each of them want them in a certain way and anybody who tries to do it in in another way that uh gets in the way of their way um sorry for the mouthful I think that's uh that's where the problem lies I believe I am really struggled Pavel to get people to watch this for me who aren't into the topic um and uh I asked quite a few people I said this back at the time when I was going to review it that I had a few folks were going to watch it for me and I've got one friend who did I'll jump in and try and find their stuff while we speak um I actually yesterday was speaking to to a friend of mine who I work with um and she she listens to this podcast now because I worked with her and she's picked up in the last year or so quite into the topic now and she said she fell asleep during the documentary um she said and she's not someone who's entrenched in the topic she literally knows about it because of working with me and listening to this or watching this so hi Donna if you're listening um but uh she said she didn't learn anything new that she hadn't heard on this I imagine anyone who watches you Pavel will not have learned anything new from the documentary now you can see it wasn't for us it wasn't aimed at us I still struggle to think that most of the audience who purchased that documentary were not the UFO community yeah um I really I really do believe that I think most of the public who have picked up on it well was the social media side of things and that's just where we are I think in 2026 now um getting the year right um what what do you think actually let me start here you mentioned it wasn't the whole story that's something I definitely agree with it certainly seemed one element of the story and in some ways it was an extension of Luis Alexandro's experience and his story but it really seemed to miss off a lot of the OSAP background any detail on ATIP um I suppose the argument there would be well how far back do you go and what directions do you go when you're covering a 90 minute documentary um that I'll say again it was very dry and I think a lot of folks have said that in terms of content even for folks who weren't initiated but where do you go with that documentary what would you like to have seen included what what's missing from it if you had to pick maybe three things or four things for me uh the three central things are yeah the crashes yeah but also contact and abduction experiences I think that should have been covered even though I know there's people that say no it's too soon fuck that um I I think it's a disservice to people to uh tell them oh no you're not ready for this especially if it's something that important to know like there's people that have been reporting for decades that they're being abducted and say we're children many of them that's something real that people have reported uh for decades and that needs to be discussed and the fact that Dan made this decision Farah again to not include that for example that was a mistake in my opinion and also not including the whole uh Hal put off Stargate uh group that has been doing this stuff also since the 70s I think um that was also a mistake I think those three things if you would have included all those three and and oh I'm sorry also add the the whole Skinwalker Ranch connection I think that that would have been a little bit more um acceptable for most people and I know that it's a lot I get it I mean it would have been like a five-hour film you know if yeah yeah I know that I get that and maybe that's why because Dan is also thinking about selling the film and making it digestible for people I think that in terms of uh sales it did do well so Dan Farah did get what he wanted initially you know um and and he has a lot of uh control over many IP uh related to this topic as well so um I don't know it's just maybe he's going to release it in different parts different types of media but just release this and hype it up as you did as much as you did and not deliver uh really because it just painted a really dire picture of what's going on and I don't think that's all that's going on you know this documentary was hyped and sold on the cast and who was going to be in it perhaps less about even what was going to be said but wow look at all these folks Rubio Gillibrand Clapper do you think if they had included say a 25 minute section on abductions that those people would have sat in that documentary still I guess it depends on the abduction experience you talk about because they're they're so varied um or even even experiencers if you've got some probably if you had sudden if you had uh done an interview with dr john blitz for example I think that that would have made a difference I think because of his credentials and everything um because that was the angle right like they wanted credentialed people from the government this guy was part of the group that uh some of his uh people I believe were um involved in nuclear capabilities and right after 9-11 so this guy is like the real deal so I would have included john blitz for example he's big in robotics and that was one of the books he was involved in robotics and 9-11 recoveries and the world trade center aftermath like immediately he was down there and with teams and that's his other expertise so yeah I'd agree in that sense I I'm that is one where I do I've had I've had many disagreements with folks over the years on I see why the public aren't at that stage yet to have that conversation to see that move the needle because I don't see the conversation we're having right now and I still think the biggest thing we've had since 2017 or even maybe ever in the ufo topic top three at least is David Grush coming forward and the position he was in and seeing what he said let me just tell you very quickly because I've not read this out before Pavel um so my mate Gareth um I've got a couple of Gareth's I don't think this one will be listening but I asked him to check out age of disclosure for me so this is what he said um I've long been a believer in UFOs I went through a phase where I was borderline obsessive about them but as work and family pressures have increased over the years that obsession has softened into a steady curiosity I still want to know what's going on just without the burning compulsive need for answers I saw an advert for the documentary pop up on Facebook I was massively hooked during the 2023 senate hearings on UAPs and the shift in tone from the US government so I went in with interest and a bit of hope the documentary is slick and well made but for me there was a lot of smoke and not much fire it didn't really add anything substantial to what's already out there there was a lot of I'd love to tell you specifics I know someone who saw and pilots told me but not much in the way of actual evidence um he goes on for quite a bit and then says all in all a stylish documentary but lacking the substance needed to make real waves so there's someone who's like not heavy into the UFO topic or involved in it massively doesn't listen or watch this um and I know Gareth but he's had a passing interest he's watched it and went so I think that's that's been a big big thing for me with it um I agree it focused in on that one angle but like going back to that experience or thing I don't feel the public's in a place to have that conversation but then it's how you I think there's a gap needs bridged to get to it I still feel from where we are now there's a missing link that we have to fill in and have something in there can I push back on that a little bit yeah yeah um I I think that the majority of people really uh do have memories that are uh repressed about stuff that they experienced when they were little even even older and I and I I disagree there like if if people who are experiencers start talking about this more publicly and open openly a lot of those repressed memories are going to come back and um I think that it's going to have a different effect I don't think that they're not ready I think that that a lot of those memories are dormant and because I I always use this example do you remember oh well you you were you were probably a kid or maybe not even alive by then but uh back in the 80s when Whitley Strieber released his book the effect that that cover had on people I think that something similar could happen if somebody in like a really public setting like one of those films uh comes out and talks about their their experience I think that could have a uh potentially a similar effect to that cover uh from Whitley's book and again um you you think that people probably are not ready I I honestly disagree there because I think most have had experiences they just don't talk about them I I don't think most have it's hard to pin a number on it either way right it could be a big minority but if you look at going public what does that mean now so going public 25 30 years ago meant major mainstream news like in the UK like kind of six o'clock nine o'clock with the two big news times in the UK I think that's gone now that you news is 24 hours 24 hour cycle you can pick up your phone and find out what's happening instantly I've got a few major news um organizations I get alerts as I'm sure most people do so I can see instantly when something's happened you've just had and this this segues a little bit um we don't have to move completely into it but American Alchemy gets millions of views okay Joe Rogan millions of views experiencers Chris Bledsoe has been on those shows so that is mainstream and yet it's not moving the needle outside again of certain communities just having those discussions and even looking at Bledsoe's stuff which I want to talk to you about anyway so we can we can move on or keep in the the general we can jump all over fuck it who cares um with the Bledsoe stuff that's even within the UFO community caused a lot of shit and I seen you getting involved in conversations and I've I made some thoughts on it as well seeing a lot of people online arguing back and forward where you've got someone sharing their experience but it seems to have maybe grown arms and legs as they say here and moved on a little bit since then so maybe we have had folks share their experiences I mean Streber's pretty mainstream most folk know that it was the basis of the fucking South Park pilot show um I've mentioned on here many times you know that the whole anal probe joke is from Whitley Streber's experience so I don't know how much more mainstream it would get and again you make the point age of disclosure if you got it on something like that well yeah but who's watching that again I'd say it's 90% maybe more the UFO community watches it who knows this stuff and it's already for or against it so you would need to have experiencers in congress standing up sharing experiences but if you've got testimony in congress of people standing there saying I worked on craft I know people who worked on craft there's been retrievals there's been bodies and that still doesn't get the general public at large I don't see the experiencers being in congress and speaking about it is going to do that because it's almost like a subset of the topic I think this is why probably uh James Fox's um new film and all he's doing in Brazil with the Virginia case I think that's this is why uh it's so important um because he's talking about um the beings and uh the biologics and all this stuff and um yeah I agree with you um experiencers will probably not testify in public yet I think it has to do with stigma as well um but I still do think that uh there's a lot of people um I maintain this that have had experiences maybe not abductions per se but weird stuff that has happened to them I think the majority of us have experienced some some of that stuff and um when when you see somebody like who's brave enough like for example I told you dr bleach you see somebody like that with those credentials talking about that stuff and you've also experienced some weird um I think it would give people courage to start talking about it more and see it more normally and another thing that I wanted to add to that was that um the reality is that yeah the the ufo community and people who watch these videos is still niche I agree with you there but I think I think it's growing and and every day like uh you mentioned jesse also chris ramsey and like third eye drops and people like that they're like and the hundreds of thousands of uh subscribers now and millions and millions of views and they keep growing so I think there's new people coming on to the to the conversation and uh that's because of for example grassroots grassroots efforts like you james jandali um you know people that really started at the beginning of the podcast world in ufos and um it it just keeps growing and I think it's going to keep growing man even though it's maybe a little slow paced but I think it's going to keep growing you need some of that tech pro money to to really kick off um that tech bro back in um any major conglomerates who want to get in touch please reach out uh I'll take insulation heaters um buy me a new house that'd be great uh but no um on that so see the experiencer stuff the issue with me with that coming forward is because it's so so based on testimony I know there are examples of um implants and whatnot but then I've I've struggled to have that conversation with with friends even recently I can't remember who it was um but one of my mates was asking about the implant side of things oh it was based off of me being on the uncanny podcast and it was someone in work I was on a work call and she was like oh my god I heard you on on uncanny that's one of my favorite podcasts and I was she was like yeah that's really interesting she went so that guy has like a like a like an implant inside of him terry lovelace and I was like yeah she went can they not just get it out and you know it's a difficult oh they move or they're evasive or people just won't take it out and it just seems a little bit oh that's that's convenient and it's there's there is that element of the topic and I've said before Pavel I I believe there are genuine experiencers out there it's difficult and difficult to discern who is being honest who is being deceitful who believes they had an experience and let me give you an example I don't know if I've mentioned this on the podcast before and I'm not going to bullshit and say I had an experience because I didn't but I remember I I've always had like vivid dreams I remember one night having a dream and and I lived in a high-rise tower block I don't know how common those are in the states or Mexico or these different countries in South America but like basically 19 floors six apartments on each floor they they basically house the poor okay so like it's not it's not a classy accommodation by any means um but I remember one night having and I'll just say a dream where my and I have really vivid dreams and a lucid dream the wall was removed and several little gray typical aliens appeared through the wall as in I could see outside I was eight floors up that and I was in my bedroom and it was clear as day but obviously nighttime and this thing was outside the the flat and the wall was gone and these things came into the room and that was it then I woke up now I could sit and say that was an experience and I had this what's to say other people out there don't do that and think they had an experience and I could be credentialed and end up testifying in front of Congress and say that but actually it was just a dream because as far as I'm concerned it was a dream and I'm going to get people get in touch with me and say Andy that could be a real genuine experience but how do you know how would I know yeah and I think that's something that people like Dr. John Mack struggled with quite a bit with many of the people that spoke to him um it's a valid point I'm not going to say it's not and I've also had weird dreams I've also had weird real experiences that yeah I was definitely awake and there were witnesses there so um but yeah that point is well taken it's like what Joe uh talked about in his podcast his dream that was really strange yeah but he still thinks it was a dream and it probably was uh so yeah yeah I agree there but I saw that clip and it was framed as was that not Jesse Michael saying Rogan finally says or is experienced and it was like then you watch it and you're like no he says it's a dream yeah and he shared it and it's pretty quick but so a little bit clickbaity but again there'd be folks who would argue and perhaps so that doesn't exist what are you talking about no I know I know I know I need a quick screenshot of both our faces looking shocked at the end of this Pavel um so there'll be people who might rightly argue that a dream doesn't mean it's not real and you don't know it's different reality consciousness is affected maybe that's I've often said perhaps and I think there's an element of the abduction experience that happens non-locally non-physically where your your consciousness can be taken yeah and I always the really simple example for folks who haven't heard it before is myself and my wife lying in bed she could be awake all night looking at me see I've not moved I'm just sleeping but I've had an abduction experience and she wouldn't know it because your consciousness is gone but you're not so maybe maybe that has an element to this which is but again I think that's the point that's why I wanted to have you on that whole how do you get there I still think there's a bridge that needs that needs um a gap that needs bridged to have that conversation publicly because I still think the basic conversation is a bit of a fight and perhaps we're we're getting there with the you know between age of disclosure disclosure day the spielberg movie I know that's something you've touched on on your podcast um you talked about the beatrice via real uh and the click noises and stuff like that what's your take on disclosure day the movie coming out the timing of it is this just pavel a blockbuster movie on a topic that's kind of hot which has been hot up and down um but it's just a good time to have it from a guy who likes making big movies or is there something more to it I know that that's the easy cop-out answer that it's just the film but if you watched uh steven spielberg interviews when he was doing uh close encounters of the third kind you can you can tell that he he was talking to people who knew about the the reality of this of what was happening and he wanted to make the most accurate film that he could accurate to reality so um and also he has uh tv shows that are very accurate the take the show taken that's that seems accurate as well to what is being reported um so for me um and all also jerry brockheimer and kaczynski are also doing a film with david grush involved and kaczynski recently had a take he said that i think um because uh it was said that it was science fiction and he was like i think we're getting to know that it's science fact and uh it's an easy cop-out to say oh he's just a filmmaker he's making a fiction film agreed but he's basing it on real information and so is steven so uh i think it's more of like a predictive programming you could call it and yeah it's also blockbuster but um based on the investigation that those guys do and who's involved with them you can like probably think that a lot of that is uh based on reality so it's a mixed bag i would say but um it's definitely gonna be a blockbuster i don't know uh if some of those uh religious elements are gonna probably hurt in a sense the talking about this honestly you know um yeah i don't know if uh they're gonna use for example chris bledsoe's story um as part of the film because there's a picture of um this guy who played the kin what's his face um of him wearing the eeg machine things right here oh colin firth colin firth i saw someone the other day compared that and showed bledsoe with the the eeg stuff stuck on his head and yeah yeah and people don't talk about the wires coming off the little little sticky plasters on it yes yeah and so you have to think maybe uh and given all the religious elements and chris bledsoe's story i mean he has a book called ufo of god so yeah maybe uh it has to do something with that as well and um i can't wait though for the film to come out but um but yeah it's uh we should be careful a little bit i think i don't think the bledsoe story is part of that i think you could go to any number of movies or franchises over the years or decades that have had very similar shots in and i think people were just picking something up there and running with it um on that the the bledsoe interview on american alchemy what was your take on that i i shared it and thanks to karen karen made a comment around some of my thoughts where she was saying about let me let me pull it up um give me your take first and i'll get karen's comment um well i think that bledsoe um experienced something real because there's a lot of people that experience the same thing like it it's and even before chris bledsoe came along they were already experiencing something similar um but i i also think that when and there's something that keeps happening in the community you start with a case that is revolving around you or you start like um yeah talking about this more publicly you then become a little bit prominent within the community and then they start calling you to be in different events and then you get the masses treatment uh done to you you get constantly uh adulated and uh people say things that are not true about you not real but you start believing them and i think this happens to a lot of people it's happened to dr steven greer it i think it's happened to lou alessandro too um and i think it's happening to chris bledsoe and um i think that we one thing is not um unexclusive from the other i think that bledsoe did experience these things but i also think that it's gotten to a point where you say okay so you're not just doing it because you do want to find out what's going on or like you're now preaching stuff and and that's where it gets iffy for me at least at least and also um not being able to control his son ryan and what he's doing whatever the hell that is i think that's a mistake as well because um uh bledsoe even though i still think he does have good intentions and i still think that um uh yeah that he did experience those things um his son is like talking against other people's beliefs and other people's experiences and saying that only what they are experiencing is the truth and that's a slippery slope towards like something not good i would say and and i think that probably chris ought to talk to his kid a little bit and tell him to calm down a little bit and maybe even apologize dude because what he said about experiences was pretty shitty man honestly i i made the comments that i'm not a fan of anyone in this topic who has like an absolutist view where if you don't listen to me and what i say and you try and listen to someone else's opinion different narrative then then that's wrong and that's not the right way to do it you know pavel if you were telling people on your podcast you know i'm reporting this news don't listen to anyone else don't listen to their take on it don't if i've not covered it it's not worth covering you know if it's not my opinion then it's wrong i know better you'd be like well fuck you pavel that's that's you know come on and and that's that's not what you do at all and i don't like that idea i've seen the clips people shared online of ryan's comments and i agree but chris bled to also unsettling comment for me on american alchemy of you know there are three types of people there are people who can see these things people i can teach to see these things and skeptics who will never see these things that's that's bullshit that utter nonsense even from my own sighting back in the 90s my mum is as big a skeptic with this whole topic is has come she doesn't believe in it at all i give you my theory on bledsoe yeah go on because i because i have a theory about him about what's happening to every experiencer that goes through this um and i think it's linked probably to uh the work that dr gary nolan is doing and what he discovered in the brain and i think that uh uh trauma uh sort of exacerbates the these um you could call them capabilities to see things to um be more aware of like stuff that uh probably is there but not everybody can see um this goes back a little bit to john keel's concept of the super spectrum and i think that when when chris what he's doing essentially is he is putting his framework like what he understands which is a religious framework into this but uh there's a lot of people that also see these things and they give it an entirely different interpretation and i think that that's what's happening to him like he uh his uh his wife uh passed away in in a really horrible car accident he was going through a really tough time with his finances and uh i think that he he was his antennae you could say as tom de long said i think it was more open than normal when you're going through grief and through those moments i think that's what happens and that's why people keep reporting that they see things when they lost a relative or they went through something really really horrible i went through a near-death experience and weird stuff started happening to me afterwards after that happened and i think that's probably what's happening to chris but he's given it that religious framework and even even ryan in that podcast i saw the whole thing he said that he grew up in a religious framework and that's why he sees it this way that's what he thinks that's what it is and i think that's uh that's that's my theory of sorts i think um yeah trauma is what is caused this on chris and and his son too because his son also went through really tough stuff and but but they don't understand that that religious framework is something that they're adding to whatever they're experiencing it's not out external i don't know if that makes sense no it does and i think the nd stuff like with the near-death experiences i agree there's an element it seems that you you kick a door open to that other side that other and when you don't go through it it maybe perhaps never completely closes and i think that's a lot of the work leslie cain's done in the past on nds in our netflix documentary you come back and you're you're just in touch with something else that maybe you shouldn't be or other people don't have access to not that they can't but they have just not had the same experience you have had to allow that there's an element for me though and you mentioned greed as well in this where good intentions to begin with they have sources and experience contact whatever it may be and then it just turns into a whole franchise of this is this is my ufology and i made the comment it sounds very greer-like and some folks disagreed with that others agreed that um and i don't want to sound too disparaging when i say it but there is a negative connotation and i'm not going to shy away from that it's my opinion it is what it is wrong it is yeah and and that's that's a big issue with me with this whole topic is the lack of people saying in my opinion or i think rather than i know or this is how it is so when someone sits and says yeah you either see these things you don't see these things or i can teach you you are covering a lot of bases there but there's a lot of stuff you're missing off there's a lot of gray areas pardon the pun yeah um here here's what karen said about the the bledso interview she went i want to share a thought regarding the bledso interview i felt jesse did a good job with it when you listen to an interview like that you really are they are to hear chris's perspective and interpretation you may not agree with it but it deserves to be heard fully and respectfully from there each listener can use their own discernment to form an opinion and most people are grown up enough to do exactly that while some interviewers choose to challenge their guests at times it isn't always the interviewer's role to test the case often that responsibility belongs to the audience an interviewer doesn't always need to be an adversary um and i i agree with that to karen's point but that came off the back pavel of me saying that i felt i wish jesse given he has a good interviewer and has he has the time and the resources uh myself and yourself we cannot fly people out to a location and spend a day with them before we interview them you know like myself i'm pavel i'm guessing you get a couple of minutes to say hello at best and that's you also eating into your time with a guest and then you have to be off at a certain time and all that kind of stuff um so you're limited but there there's an element of for me i wish jesse had it seemed to me pavel and you'll appreciate this i think as an interviewer there was a lot of long introductory questions where pavel so you had this experience where this happened this happened this happened this happened and that sounds incredible doesn't it that is that right yeah that's right so you weren't giving him an opportunity to introduce a lot of stuff you were telling him and getting him to agree and it seemed a lot of the stuff he expanded on was just going off on a tangent um and so i felt there was a lot of leading questions on jesse's part not that it was a bad interview by any means i totally get karen's point but i would have liked to seen jesse push back on some of that you know and he does talk about discernment at one point which was really fair but he should have for me used that and that's just a personal opinion like i say use that to introduce maybe the more skeptical side of it chris you know this is an incredible story this is a story that has has gone on what would you say to folks who would question that your experience may be genuine but now isn't you know the book the money the tv deals the flying around the country all these huge podcasts now picking him up nothing wrong with that he's got to make money but then there's a lot of folks argue why wouldn't you film the stuff around your home he doesn't address and for me a really obvious one a real obvious one even putting karen's very fair point to the side you've got to say chris there are a lot of videos you have posted online of orbs that have been definitively shown to be the iss or satellites yeah yeah so instead of coming out and saying again for me shit you know what that was a mistake they don't they just move on and people and you read the comments especially on the facebook page people are like wow that's incredible i've seen similar and you know it's a space station it's literally the space station people have triangulated the literal stars in the sky the time of night it was filmed in the location it's the space station but they're passing it off and for me that's really really disingenuous and dangerous yeah and i think that um this culture of like considering skeptic people skeptical people or debunk debunkers uh bad people i think that's a mistake too because debunks are necessary um you can you can argue that there are denialists and there are people that seem to have their own agenda when they like for example when whenever david grush comes out with something there's always something against him that comes out you know and those are timed same time so there's that yeah but if you have like a skeptical approach or a skeptical idea about something there's always these like um gut reactions from believers you can you can call them that want to believe everything and they're very gullible that uh you can get attacked by that and and i don't think that culture is healthy for the community um and and yeah i'm just me saying this i know that there's going to be people in in the comments that are going to go like yeah you're not like um i don't know how you can change that really i don't think it's possible if i'm honest with you but um it is it is one of the issues that i i don't like either because that makes it way easier if you allow for skepticism and even debunking some of this stuff uh to get to the meat of of the thing you know and and i i don't think it should be frowned upon really no not everyone's going to disagree or agree and not everyone should because it's healthy to disagree and that also helps me change my perspective my opinion on the topic to i can go along with something and i'm going to bring up a topic that i know we're probably not necessarily going to disagree with but i know you've got a stronger opinion on than me and it's very current again uh you you can go along with an opinion i would never think i've ever forced an opinion on anyone's throat or a narrative or what i think about person x person y person z because i might change in the future based on the information available and go actually now i'm not so bought into this person now and that could change again and i'm not flip-flopping for content it is just like based on the evidence we have right now this is where i'm at with it and i always remain open to be disappointed to be surprised i like i say if one day steven greer can introduce me to one of these aliens that only speak to him remember there's a great one could we get greer and bledsoe on the same podcast because uh i mean it would probably cost a few quid um they would probably become friends instantly bro do you know what jesse michaels and chris ramsey you guys have got some backing greer and bledsoe same podcast because they both claim to be in direct contact with whatever this is and yep it's like who's right can't have two jesus's so this this concept of the lady is interesting though i gotta say um because if it hadn't happened before and many times uh these marian apparitions i would have called bullshit a long time ago about this but man i live in mexico and there's a whole culture and a whole industry surrounding the virgen de guadalupe and that was also a marian apparition that apparently did happen so i do i do feel very very curious about knowing what this thing is you know uh riana pasulka's presentation at sol was all around miracle of fatma and ufology and how miracles were they just ufo sightings or experiences in a different form um it was really interesting really interesting um shame she had to do it remotely and couldn't be there in person but it was really good and it was all along those lines so i know sol are currently beginning to release those presentations from the event and the carnell one is now up online as well so as those come out folks and pavel i think you'd really like the pasulka one uh in that respect it's really good um but what i was going to mention before around opinions changing on this topic the nazca mummies i know is something that's relatively close to look at the smile on his face if you're listening as soon as i said that folks so the nazca mummies um in the last week there have been two pretty prominent shows on this uh incredible history yep and obviously on weaponized most recently uh yes talking at will from incredible history who's been on the podcast great guy lovely to speak to um has done some work some investigation and basically pavel correct me if i'm wrong here had a doctor on with him and they're basically showing that they feel the the big mummies folks and this is one of the confusing things around it you've got those little ones and whatnot but the big mummies who look kind of like the aliens from the alien movie uh sigone weaver movies best way to describe them for folks um they feel they have they have shown that there are human fingers that have been attached and this is always one of the accusations that's been leveled that these are just uh human remains that have been uh put together through various different means with animal remains and they think they've basically shown that these things are just mutilated human bodies and whatever it may be so very much on the hoax category i don't think you agree with that necessarily pavel is that right oh it's not right uh it's not that i agree but uh this case is so convoluted um i'm sure you know that uh i've spoken to people who are also anthropologists who have looked at uh the dicoms that they call um and i've asked them constantly because this this debunk is old like um this argument that uh the hands and feet were mutilated that's one of the oldest debunks that have existed it's just different people now talking about them um and and i understand that debunk i i asked about it ad nauseum to two anthropologists and one radiologist who still think that uh the larger bodies are real um so i am confused i'm not gonna lie um yep but i also think that uh not even the dna tests are gonna be definitive um to to claim that these are real or not i happen to think that the only way to actually found find out what's happening with these and if they're real or not completely is by raiding the site and that can't happen unless there's a gunfight against the waquero mafia and that's that's at the core of the issue here that there is a mafia of uh mummified and and and modified remains that are being sold in the black market for tens and even hundreds of thousands of dollars and and the people that are involved in that uh i'm gonna be honest with you i don't think even jaime or even teary the people that are like directly involved in this case know whether these are real or not they all have their doubts at this point i honestly think so i honestly think that the mcdowell's even have their doubts even though they're deeply involved with jaime and with everything that's going on i think that they have their doubts as well so um i want to wait until the results from very prominent uh institutions from the u.s and from the uk and from other places um are currently running and when those come out then i'm i'm gonna make an opinion but i i can confidently tell you like there was a time when i was like uh more certain than not that the larger bodies were real um even though i had seen that debunk before but this latest explanation of the same debunk was very thorough and it was very well done i do have to give that to will um but um that's all i can say for now because there's a lot more developing that i cannot talk about uh and it's not my information to give anyway um but you put a number on it like 60 40 real fake 70 30 for me it's 50 50 now for me okay yeah do you know i think for me part of the issue on this is there's no real lead to go and follow or speak to on this there are so many different people involved yeah that aren't working together that are all working in silo which is really strange when you've got like you've got something that has a chain of custody you know if you found a piece of a piece of a craft pavel it would be you we would speak to about it what's happening with it what's going on but between jaime and hollywood disclosure alliances involvement gaia's involvement all these different anthropologists different universities different scientists and you'll know as well i've said this before there are multiple scientists and academic organizations in the background who do not want to be named who are involved in different ways in this as well um which is great but also doesn't help but i get there's a whole oh transparency but also if you want some of this shit done then you need to let some of the people just do the work in the background so it's so difficult and you do have so many different presentations of these things are real these things are bullshit and see for me as a layman i don't sit and pretend and it'd be really easy for me same as you pavel to sit and present all this is real until it's not and then go oh well let's move on next story it's really difficult to follow because i'm i'm in no way qualified to look at any x-ray or scan so when someone sits down with doctor in front of their name and tells me this is a llama skull i i go okay but then another person sits down with doctor in front of their name and says no this is why it's not a llama skull it's like this is why i'm so confused bro because i've been talking to a lot of the involved scientists in this and um each of them had like say different things and i think that this is something that at least one of those uh sites is taken advantage of the fact that the most most of us are lay people and they just they can just say like really sophisticated shit to you and you go like okay yeah yeah and unless you do like even if you do your own research you're not gonna know how to talk technically about craniometry for example yeah that's like it's impossible i tried to read and study it for five years no yeah you get you gotta you gotta do that shit to understand and i think that at least one side of this issue is taking advantage of that of people's ignorance in the topic and i just can't find out which is you know because yeah um i know that people for example involved in uh with jaime um there's always those who accuse jaime of like you know having them in in his pocket and shit like that i have no way to prove that uh but i can tell you that i've been talking to scientists who are not involved directly with either hymen or teary and at least one of them who i really respect he's an anthropologist he's like he's looked at remains for decades now and he believes they're true they're real and he even has an account that he in the 90s he saw one of those alive so that's what makes it difficult for me because if you like look at the background of people that are talking to you and they seem believable they seem credentialed um that's where i get really confused so right now i'm 50 50 bro so sitting firmly on the fence which i can appreciate and i think that's a good place to be with this because i think i probably lean 40 60 in favor of it being fake folks yeah but there's there's an element of just being used to that though where do you know what we've not had we've not had one yet it's like pavel giving me football predictions every single week me putting a bet on and always losing and you being like no no one's going to happen one's going to happen you know i'm sure eventually one will and i look forward to that day i win that money but right now i'm i'm 200 in the fucking hole so you know um pavel does not provide me with football bets folks he doesn't support any good teams for me i suck at that so no no no way do you know what very quick sidebar one of my things i changed this year very few resolutions as such because that's all bullshit um sorry folks but i i closed down my betting account because good man i didn't lose a fortune but i was putting on loads of money to probably win back the same amount and it was like wait a minute here this is yeah you know good call it's all very well every every so often get a thousand pound bet come in but you know you go yes i've just recovered 880 pounds i've lost in the last six months um so yeah but that was one of mine but listen on that then one one final thing pavel before i am you freeze to death and myself um james fox there has been a rumored announcement coming out when i spoke to him a couple of week uh week and a half ago he said it's coming soon there will be an announcement really soon i'm just not allowed to say too much about it it wasn't an exclusive for me other people had heard the same thing from james there was rumors for a while of a press club type event was going to happen um that happened back in 2001 with steven greer and co we have confirmation of that as of yesterday um the full announcement eventually went out through the anomalous coalition yes and that was because james fox was having some issues getting things shared online so they'd posted to say we've helped james get it all online in one place here's the press release and just to let people know essentially um it says james fox the phenomenon moment of contact hosts a uap ufo press conference in washington dc with witnesses experts and members of congress it will be at the national press club on january 20th 2026 from 11 a.m to 1 p.m and that's eastern time folks so in the uk that starts at 4 p.m um the to 11 a.m to 1 p.m there'll be brazilian first-hand witnesses of a crashed ufo and live non-human beings um that is not that there will be live non-human beings in the press club folks just that there are witnesses to those two things just the way i read that might have sounded wrong um and that is the virginia case and i'll get to that in a second and then total three american insiders on crash retrievals biologics and calls for immunity for whistleblowers pavel just let me quickly read this out because i've not covered this yet on the podcast so part one um brazil for the first time ever a leading brazilian neurosurgeon is revealing details of his direct contact in a hospital with a live non-human intelligent being in 1996 he and other brazilian witnesses will be at the national press club in washington dc on january 20th 2026 for a press conference the truth is i saw the being it was not a being from our planet says dr italo venturelli the neurosurgeon who was beside the entity uh bedside with the entity at regional hospital in virginia we are talking about something that changes the concept of humanity it's important for people to know i won't cover all the press conference there um part two then says beginning 20 america beginning in 2023 numerous intelligence insiders have come forward often under oath to report on ultra secret special access programs engaged in the recovery and analysis of both crashed vehicles and biologics defined in this context as biological specimens or bodies of non-human origin there is no risk to national security from the release of evidence of biological specimens as there may be with exposing technology from crash vehicles this historic press conference will address the issue of non-human biologics as has never been done before as an independent effort the american speakers at the press conference will be calling upon the executive branch to relax certain security clearance obligations so that insiders who are part of america's uap legacy program can share classified information with congress and eventually speak more openly to the public furthermore they will be emphasizing the need to increase information sharing efforts between nations regarding uap crashes there is no information currently pavel on who the americans involved will be we can speculate on that in a moment uh the panelists from brazil are center senator eduardo giral dr etalo ventarelli dr amandru amando fortunato and carlos de sosa who was the witness to the crash so we're very much got a virginia focus here and we have then the american side of things what's your take on the event what's your thoughts what's going to happen here i heard that uh leslie kane talking about that they were gonna discuss biologics hopefully they can show something or maybe give us a hint that that there is uh material you know video photos what what the biologics might actually be yeah yeah and fox uh james fox was with uh chris ramsey yesterday and he did say that there were many pictures and videos not just one um so uh hopefully maybe they already got a hold of something like that and they can show it uh that would be like my best hope right um but i think that they're gonna talk about this stuff i don't know who the americans involved are i would guess that maybe jeff nuchatelli is going to be part of that because he went with james to brazil right so and he's a good speaker too so maybe he's going to be part of it too i don't know who else but um borland matthew brown i don't think so no i don't think so um maybe they are but i don't think so i think it's going to be jeff uh probably and i don't know if well james is really good friends with lou i mean they they recently did a really like camaraderie type of interview together so it would make sense that lou is there um if he's involved or not i don't know but um i guess it would make sense to me that he's there too would say remember in the build-up to lou's last book coming out uh he was radio silent until the book come out so i i don't know if that was i'm presuming that was due to like um the contract he has you know you talk about dan farah and the ip involvements and stuff i imagine before these things that you don't go on any shows you don't do interviews you you stay quiet and you you build till publicity time so i don't know if he's still in the same in the same position he was back then you know because uh back then i don't think he had control over what he did um based on the recent activity i've seen him more active on social media responding to people unlike in the past so i i don't think that's an issue for him now i do think that he he seems to be want to get more involved i mean he just announced a book he's kept saying that more stuff is coming so he's going to be involved in it um and the topic in general i don't know if on james's thing i don't know but um but yeah uh for me um this has been one of the most compelling cases that i've seen so far in the whole topic so the fact that james was able to bring everything to dc and make people pay attention in dc that's very valuable in my opinion and hopefully they can get for example more information about the pilot or pilots that allegedly took the plane to brazil and brought all the stuff back allegedly but let's keep saying allegedly because um even though it's one of the most compelling cases so far um there hasn't been really any proper proper evidence on it so hopefully james knows that i'm sure he does uh but yeah it is exciting and uh people like i did a small comparison uh of the stephen greer uh conference to the james fox that is now happening uh it only goes as far as they both did a press conference about ufos at the national press club yeah yeah uh but i'm sure it's gonna be an entirely different thing um greer's was very interesting in my opinion and important too um he did have a lot of people within the government stuff talking about this but that was a massive thing um this one i think is what gonna be a bit more petit comité i think i don't know if you agree with that i think what would be good i know a lot of folks including myself i reached out to the publicist involved and was like do we know who the speakers are perhaps it's better we keep the speakers quiet and who's actually going to be involved so no one pulls out last minute no one gets cold feet um if they do we don't know which is probably better dylan borland was a surprise in the hearing we didn't know dylan until he came forward and his name was in that sheet so perhaps that's a good thing and you can only kind of be be surprised i'm not going to go in with low expectations like i would normally say because i think james fox i've got a lot of respect for him and i think he's a genuine genuinely nice guy in this topic i think his heart is completely in the right place and uh if he's doing this with all the work he's been doing over the last year a couple of years he's got like a young you know a young kid and stuff i know he loves spending time with and he has to spend a lot of time away from his kid um i think he'll have put a lot of work into this and he won't want to do something that comes across similar to remember when the hollywood disclosure alliance done that event to show the mummies and it was like outside in a car park and the internet connections were shit and you had experts standing up and they showed a video of someone breaking one of the fingers on the mummies and it just looks so amateur yeah james won't want this to to be like that so i think especially what we have now that we didn't have in 2001 is social media where people will pick this up people will learn with it um can you get rogan's eyes on it american alchemy will cover area 52 will cover um i'm sure myself and yourself will talk about it pavel as well many others i just hope it pushes things forward in the right direction like you say it's an incredibly interesting case i hope the fact that it's not a u.s centric case doesn't put people off um in the states because that that does happen where it's a u.s phenomenon it's not a u.s phenomenon it's a worldwide phenomenon we all know that um it's a really strong case i hope i hope the people speaking from the american point of view bring something to the table and that from it there's an impact i think that's a big one for me it's not just an event we sit here and go like age of disclosure yeah that that was interesting yeah but nothing i didn't already know i want there to be something and i i think it's a stretch to think there are going to be any photos or videos like you say that would be great i would love that if they could just present something that we go oh that's that's interesting something that was interesting though was that on the chris ramsey's podcast they spoke about this uh military man who passed away after allegedly touching the the thing um and they they showed the autopsy report that was interesting yeah i've not watched it yet but i've heard that happen that was interesting because there were some anomalies in the autopsy report of uh this um i think it was a bacteria that uh touched this guy when the being scratched him and yeah it has it had some characteristics that are not normal in in this world like in in nature so that was interesting i think that is compelling evidence now um this this autopsy report and i don't know if they're gonna lean on that a little bit because that's that's like new evidence that uh was just presented so maybe maybe yeah i don't know pavel let's start wrapping up mate um before we go give me three predictions for 2026 what are we going to be talking about this year in the ufo world i don't do predictions but um i'll humor you spoilers then no no no no no um i think that the conversation is already happening uh but it's going to lean more into bodies um that's what i think um and whatever you think about the tridactyls um i think that the conversation is also going to be about the tridactyls even though even if they're hoaxes or not it's going to be stronger especially in the u.s um so that's one also we can include james's stuff there there's another case in bolivia that i just covered about biologics as well so that's going to be interesting the second one is this is more of a hope than a prediction i hope that um more of these people that um that for example dylan dylan borland is saving information for as a dead man switch i hope that more of these people that are constantly talked about in the back channels come forward to to speak um and and yeah this includes the the latest whistleblower that burleson talked about in the interview that we did um because and that you all he also talked to you about that right and to dinner as well about this new whistle yeah touched on it yeah yeah um so i hope that this guy whoever he is or she i don't know if it's he or she i hope that they if they come forward i hope that they're involved in this so-called legacy program and if they are that they really bring receipts you know and um good information um and uh i can i can i can tell you um this is something that i think i don't think anything will happen in easter that's a prediction i would agree with you yeah well other than people will get lots of chocolate eggs and get fat for a couple of weeks um that's what i'm doing i i think we're going to be hearing people say that yeah things changed like you know i'll give the example of i used to follow quite a lot before long before i started this podcast one of my guilty pleasures was andrew bassaggio you heard of him no who's that he um really interesting guy go if you ever get a spare four hours right search his name i'll send you a link and you can watch him present flawlessly and he speaks so well that he as a child was in this kind of really special program along with obama and others as a kid um and he would like jump to mars and go back in time and all that kind of stuff yeah i've heard about special programs yeah but the guy speaks like meticulously but he also predicted that he was going to be president in like 2016 and then it was like that never happened in a minute oh yeah the timeline changed and then it was going to be 2020 and now the timeline changed like that was the kind of and yeah it's always that convenient thing of the timeline change and then i'm sure something happened that he disappeared and some guy posted saying he was going blind and losing his sight and was doing a massive go fund me um but he was still going to be president so look out for that um but yeah he was one of those guys it was a real guilty pleasure of mine back in the day that i would watch and go that's not true but my god what a story you know like yeah yeah yeah and all that to say i don't think anything will happen in easter but we'll probably get a reason why yes hopefully that that would be good that would be good but listen pavel how can people find you mate how can people uh find your working content you can find me on uh youtube on on spotify on patreon a sequel podcast also on instagram a sequel podcast and on x uh sequel pot and pavel i have two accounts um thank you thank you for that anytime i'll put those links in the description folks thank you so much pavel it'd be good to get you back on on a kind of regular basis if i can let me know just um chew the shit with you yeah a monthly roundup or something there's a lot going on and it's always nice to kind of bounce off people sometimes and and be able to chew the cud and uh disagree which is always always nice as well so thank you man and keep up the good work mate because it's a same channels i generally use as a go-to now same andy same thank you man um and yeah let's talk again soon yeah cheers man and i'll speak to you all very very soon that's all for this episode of that ufo podcast thank you so much for listening and watching if you enjoyed the show please follow subscribe and leave a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts it really helps others find the show if you're watching on youtube hit like subscribe and turn on notifications so you don't miss future episodes you can also support the show directly and get early access add free episodes and bonus content on patreon or by subscribing on apple podcasts spotify or youtube memberships all the links are over at thatufopodcast.com or in the show description below along with merchandise and more don't forget you can also pick up a copy of my book atlas of unidentified flying objects available now in all good bookstores and through online retailers including amazon big thank you again to all of you for listening and tuning in until next time keep looking up you never know what you might see