Inside Project Stargate: Joe McMoneagle & CIA Psychic Espionage

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He said, I obviously had a radiation burn. Hi everyone, and welcome back to That UFO Podcast. As always, my name is Andy, and my guest today is one I am incredibly excited for. I'll just say this now. I have a small list of names that, since I started the podcast six years ago, I've wanted to speak to. And now and again, a name pops up, and this is one of those names I've wanted to speak to for some time. So my guest today is a former U.S. Army intelligence officer and the first remote viewer recruited into the U.S. government's psychic espionage program, later known as Project Stargate. Over nearly two decades, he participated in hundreds of operational sessions for U.S. intelligence agencies, and was awarded the Legion of Merit for his work. Welcome to the podcast, Joel McMoneagle. I'm glad to be here, Andy. Very good to have you on, sir. I'm glad you're fighting fit. You're feeling well. A lot of folks have been asking for this one. Originally, we were going to speak back in November, I think it was, 2025. You had a little issue to deal with at that time, but you have very kindly kept in touch with me. We've got it sorted out. Here we are now in February, 2026. And, Joel, you have lived what must be one of the most fascinating lives I've ever read about, listened to, or watched through various interviews over the years. But what I want to do here is give listeners a flavor of what your entire life has been like. But can you take us back to your very early years? And I want to know, what was your upbringing like as a child? And were there any experiences that maybe in hindsight you feel were particularly relevant? It all was particularly relevant. I grew up in a slum in Miami, down in Miami, Florida. And the area I was in, which was on about Northwest 2nd Avenue and 79th Street, was mostly refugees, Cuban refugees, refugees from Papadocs Island, Chicanos, Blacks. I was a token white kid in the neighborhood, and there was about six gangs. And unfortunately, I had four younger sisters. And so I had to take care of my sisters and keep them out of trouble. And so I grew up needing to know what the neighborhood was going to do before I could do anything. And so I got to be very observant, what I call situationally aware. And I would never agree to join a gang. But as I was growing up, I had an incident when I was about 15. I was with my mother downtown, walking on a park across from the courthouse. It's right on the water. And it was a pretty hot day. And so I went over and got a drink out of a water fountain. And my mother had a meltdown because it said colored only. And so I got immediately taken to the doctor. The doctor read me to riot at. And I said, you know, this is crazy. You know, this is out. This is it's really offensive. And I kept arguing against it. And the more I argued against it, the worse I got fed back information. And so I made a decision. I was going to get the hell out of Miami. First chance I got. So right after my 18th birthday, when I graduated from high school, I actually had two scholarships to universities. I skipped them both and went straight in the Army. And the Army, people say, the Army, why couldn't you have gone in the Coast Guard or something calmer? And the only reason I went in the Army is I talked to everybody. I went to the recruiter for Marines, Navy, Air Force, and even the Coast Guard. But I kept going back to the Army because that was the only person that wasn't lying to me. He kept throwing me out of his office. He kept saying, go somewhere else. All you're going to learn to do here is launch bullets and catch bullets. And you're too smart for that. But I kept going back there. So that's why I enlisted. And I think my test scores kind of escorted me into the intelligence area. They recruited me right after my AIT for a weapon. And they called me in and told me that my weapon was obsoleted, that they were taking it out of the Army. They weren't really. They were trying to push me out the door to look for work, which I did. And I met a guy with a beard and he recruited me. So that's how I wound up in intelligence. Yeah. And most of this interview is going to circle around the remote viewing aspect of your life because it has played such a major part of your life. I often talk about remote viewing on this podcast as much as the title is That UFO Podcast. Sure. You had a UFO experience before the Stargate program and the Bahamas. Can you just take us back to there? What happened and did it change how you saw reality? The, uh, we, I was, uh, because I was in intelligence, I went to three more schools and I graduated first in the class in two of them and second in the class in one. And that was when they were block allocating everybody to Vietnam. But the top three students in each class got sent somewhere else. So at the end of my three schools, I wound up in the Bahamas. Uh, so the island was named Alutra. It was, uh, maybe half a mile wide at its widest point and about 116 kilometers long. And, uh, they were going independent at the time from, from UK. And, uh, America offered some assistance. They said, no, we want to do it on our own. So we asked if they would allow us to put an air sea rescue unit in there or a missile tracking unit for, uh, downrange from Cape Canaveral. And they said, yes. So I was part of an eight man unit that was put on Alutra, which was important because Alutra was like the bread basket for the, all the Bahamas. They grew all the food there. And so, uh, that's where I was for 18 months. I logged probably 3,800 hours diving. And, uh, and it ended up rescuing some people off a couple of yachts. Uh, so it, it was in 1966 and, uh, that's where the UFO event happened. It happened one on a weekend when I and my partner, we worked in pairs, I and my partner, Steve, uh, we had two or three days off. We were going to go fishing. So that night we actually went to, we had an outdoor theater where the downrange engineers and people from like William Bendix, RCA Victor, that kind of thing. They could, uh, watch these first run movies from the United States. It was outside because the weather was beautiful there all the time. So we went to the movies, double feature. It was, uh, the first James Bond movie came out. Uh, it's either Dr. No or from Russia or above. I can't remember, but Dr. No. Yeah. We, we liked sitting outside because you could raise your hand and yell nurse and a young girl in a white outfit would come down and take a drink water. So you get pretty, pretty obliterated watching a movie. Yeah. And after the movie, we went to, went to the bar. We didn't have anything to do for two days. So we stayed in the bar till about one in the morning and then decided to go down to our quarters, which was closer to the ocean. And on the paved road, if you walk down on the paved road to the quarters, it was about three quarters of a mile. And, uh, it would take, you know, some time, but you could take a shortcut behind the bar. If you go over the top of the sand dunes, you had a big hill of sand dunes where the big, uh, cisterns were, where they captured rainwater. And, uh, you could cut through there and save half the time. So since we were going to go fishing at seven in the morning, we took the shortcut. We were right in the middle of those sand dunes when the whole place lit up like daylight. I mean, it was like high noon. And of course, when everything lights up like that, you look for the source of the light. And so we both looked up and there was this really bright light focused on us from about 600 feet up. It's like a cone of light. And above it was this monstrous, uh, vehicle of some kind. It was, uh, it wasn't perfectly round. It was oblique and you could see panel lines in it, everything. And it was slowly rotating. And when you, in the, when we were in the light, we couldn't hear anything. It was like being in a bell jar. The crickets all stopped, the frogs, you couldn't hear anything. And we, we were just kind of staring at that light for maybe six or eight seconds. And the light went out and just about the time it came into focus, it vanished. It went away so fast. All I can tell you is we had no idea what direction it went. And in years after I've been thinking about it a lot and it's quite possible that it might have just folded out of reality. I don't know. But the one thing I remember is the, you know, when you're, you're a little tipsy and you look up, you got to hold on to something or you're going to fall down. And I was holding on to the small, uh, young palm tree growing out of the sand with my right hand. When I looked up and the light went out and I looked down, a palm tree was on my left. It was only like eight seconds. And so I, I don't know what happened in that eight seconds, but the next morning, all, we went back to the bar and we had another six pack and discussed the whole thing and very quietly between us. And we made a decision. We weren't going to tell anybody about it because the problem was we figured if the, well, first off, nobody would believe us. Secondly, they think we were crazy and we probably get shipped off to Vietnam and we liked being in the Bahamas. So we didn't tell anybody. We got down to the quarters. We went down on, walked on the paved road this time, got to our quarters and went to sleep. The next morning I got up about six 45 and I didn't feel well. Um, I thought I had a really bad hangover. So I decided we were going to go fishing later. So I walked down to my buddy's quarters, uh, Robert Roberts, and he wasn't there. His door was standing open. So I asked the man across from him, I said, where's, where's Steve? And he said, Oh, he went out of here at four in the morning in an ambulance. They took him to the airstrip and flew him to Florida today, to a hospital in Florida. I said, really, what was wrong? And he says, I have no idea. So I was feeling pretty bad too. And I was thinking, well, maybe he had something and maybe I should get checked out. So they had a small naval unit there that were medics. And so I reported on sick call there and, uh, the medic, when I walked in the door, he said, what'd you do fall asleep on the beach, sleep on the beach all day. I said, no, why are you saying that? And he said, cause you're bright red. I had this like bright red skin. And, uh, so he said, fill out this form. And, uh, I started to fill out the form. And when he saw what I was putting on there, he freaked out. He took it away, tore it up, put it in a burn bag. He said, don't ever write that again. Just say bad sunburn. So I put bad sunburn and he gave me these, uh, pills to take for the next two weeks. He said, I obviously had a radiation burn. So it turns out that's what happened to Steve. He was in the hospital for two weeks and then came back. When he came back, it was interesting because I asked him when we were privately together, I said, Steve, what, do you remember what happened? He said, oh yeah, I remember it perfectly. I said, okay, can you recall it for me? And he said, yeah, uh, we saw this red truck. It was on the side of the road and we stopped and I, it, it had a problem with, uh, the radiator and I was taking the cap off the radiator and exploded in my face. And I said, no, no, no, no, that's not what I'm talking about. And so he said, well, that's what happened. And I said, okay, let's presume that that's what you believe. What happened before we saw the red truck? He couldn't remember. So what happened after the red truck? Couldn't remember. I said, Steve, there's not a red truck on this whole Island. So where's this coming from? But to this day, he believes that now, now what's interesting about the whole thing as well, he was wearing a, we wore civilian clothes there. He was wearing a bohemian shirt, you know, one that doesn't tuck in. It just has a straight hammer on the bottom. And on the front, it had two stripes with a couple of palm trees sewn into the cloth. It was a light green. And, uh, to this day, when he opens his shirt, you can see the residuals of the palm trees and the two stripes on both sides. So he got embossed with the palm trees. And I always kidded him about where did that, where did that come from? He says he didn't remember. Uh, but he, to this day, has no memory of the event. And I don't understand that. Do you feel that event had any bearing on what was to come in your life in terms of the remote viewing capability? No, I, I really don't. Uh, when I, uh, I eventually did go overseas, uh, after the Bahamas, I went straight to Vietnam. And, uh, after Vietnam, I did some time in other countries. I spent nearly, well, almost 14 straight years overseas doing an active intelligence mission. And eventually they brought me back to the headquarters. But in all that time, uh, that, that was just an event that happened in the Bahamas. And, uh, I, I, I've never forgotten it. I mean, it was really impressive. Uh, I have no idea what the vehicle was. It was real. I can tell you that because you could, you could actually see how it was constructed underneath. You could see the panel lines and the way it was put together. And it looked like a reflective metal. Uh, and, uh, over time, I've considered that it probably did not fly away, probably just folded out of reality in some way. Uh, in that eight seconds, we both got burned pretty good. I, I don't think I got burned as badly as him because I was a diver. Okay. And I spent all the hours in the sun anyway and, and had some protection. Did you ever in later years ask anyone to remote view the situation for you as to find out more? Uh, no, uh, I'm, I'm, it's possible that they might have done that in the, in the remote viewing unit, but it wasn't to my knowledge. They never told me. And when I was in the unit, the remote viewing unit, I was in it the rest of the time I was in the military, which was about seven years. And then, uh, when I retired, I went into the, uh, the science side, uh, Stan, I worked for Stanford Research Institute. When they shut it down there, I went to, uh, science applications, international corporation, which continued the remote viewing research. And then when they shut the whole project down, I went to, uh, laboratories for fundamental research in Palo Alto and continued remote viewing up until two years ago. So I've been a remote viewer for 48 years. So let's talk about that then. It's fascinating that incident happened. And like you say, there, there's no bedding. It wasn't like some folks claim an experience happens, whether it's an alien or UFO experience. Some folks report out of body and near-death experiences and it causes something to happen. But for you, completely separate, how does the remote viewing aspect of your life begin then? It, uh, the reason they, they actually brought me into the remote viewing unit is when I came back to the United States, to the headquarters, I, I did everything I could not to go to the headquarters. I had been 14 years in the field doing a real mission and I didn't want to push papers. And so I tried to get out of it. And, and department of the army, when I talked to the people there, they said, no, this is a special request from a three-star. You can't, it's a commander for all the security and intelligence in the army. And we can't, we can't change it. So what I did is I asked them what the, uh, the highest demand was for a language. I had maxed my, uh, D-LAT, uh, language test. And so they said it was Chinese Mandarin. So I said, okay, I, I'd like to read it, write it, and speak it. So they said, well, for that, we can change. And so I went to Monterey for, I had orders for two years immersed in Mandarin. And when I got there, I was only there about three hours. And I got this phone call at the orderly room. And I went down to the orderly room and it was, uh, a guy on the phone. And he said, do you know who I am? And I said, no, sir, I don't. He said, I'm the guy that expected you, expects you to be in his office at nine o'clock on Monday. This was a Saturday. And he said, you better be there or, and he said some other things. And I, and then hung up on me and the orderly, I was using a regular phone and the orderly all the way across the room said, wow, that sounded like an order to me. He could actually hear the whole conversation. The guy was yelling. So it was the general and he was really pissed off that I had gone to Monterey and not to his headquarters. So when I got to the headquarters, I found out why, what they did is that he, uh, decided I should be a, a warrant officer. So I got commissioned as a warrant officer, a chief warrant officer, uh, and put in charge of my MOS for the world. So that I was there now in working for the general, I was his advisor and he was in charge of all the security and intelligence for the army. So it was a pretty important job. And in the processes of doing that, I, I made some decisions, which, uh, got me to brief him on some things and I think it kind of prevented him from walking into some ambushes or walking into some technical problems. And so he considered, uh, he considered me as being somewhat like a, a radar or Mally on mash or something, you know, always a half step ahead of him. So when they came out, when he came out and said, we're going to do this new project, they didn't call it remote viewing. And they called, I can't remember what it was called gondola wish. I think when we're going to do this new project, he said, I believe it's kind of hinky. And what he meant was he didn't trust it. He didn't know anything about it and it bothered him. So he sent me to Stanford research Institute to ask questions about it. He wanted me to be fully briefed on it so I could protect his backside. So I went there and when I was there, I was asking so many questions. The, uh, the people there said, well, look, if you do a couple, you'll understand what it is. And I said, do a couple of what? They said remote viewing. So I did a, I did, uh, I think six remote viewings over a three day period where they would send somebody somewhere and I would have to describe where they were. I said, I don't understand what you're asking me for because I don't know where they are. How am I going to tell you anything about it? And they said, well, just say whatever pops in your head. So I did some drawings for each one. Um, and then when it was independently judged, it turns out that I was the first person to get five first place matches in one near first, first place was second place match. And that that's a record that hasn't been beaten since. So I got back to Fort, I got back to Arlington at the headquarters and my desk was empty. So I went down to the general's office. I said, why is my desk empty? And he said, I've decided I want you to be in this project. I'm going to send you to Fort Meade. So I went to Fort Meade and I got recruited into the project as, uh, the first remote viewer. That was in October of 78. Uh, so I got zero zero one. What, what's funny is the next guy they were going to recruit was going to get zero zero two. And the major said, oh, no, no, no, you can't do that because then you'll be telling everybody how many remote viewers we have. So he got three 85. Yeah. I love that. That's, that's very clever. Yeah. That's kind of funny, but, uh, anyway, so I became a remote viewer. When you mentioned the four matches, am I right in saying that the first match, like you see as like near perfect, that's spot on second is close third is in the ballpark, but four is no match at all. Is it something like that? Right. It was, uh, you could get one of four different scores. You get first, second, third, or four. Fourth is absolutely nothing like it. Uh, third is a relatively very small part. Uh, second is maybe a 50, 50, but a first place match is almost 90% or better. It, it, there's no question. If you laid, uh, 50 photographs out on a table, you could take the drawing I did and match it to that photograph. Yeah. Uh, and, uh, and no, that's where the person was. So, uh, five first place matches was unheard of. It just, what were you thinking when, when you heard that, that you had been so accurate? Well, I actually got in an argument with Russell Tarr. He was one of the researchers and we were sitting in this window, this room for like 20 minutes. And he said, well, are you going to write something or draw something? And I said, what am I supposed to do? Just invent something. And he said, just whatever pops in your head. I said, okay, so you want me to invent something? So I closed my eyes and what popped in my head, I drew. And, and I, I made some mistakes now that like one of the, one of the first place matches was a restaurant next to a yacht club where they had sailboats and in front was a big parking lot. Well, I drew the restaurant exactly like it was put in the parking lot, the front, put in the, the sailboats on the left. But the thing I left out is the restaurant had a boat on the roof. Right. I said, nobody in their right mind would put a boat on a roof. He said, well, we don't understand why you left that out. I said, because nobody would ever put a boat on a roof. Wait, are you crazy? And, but I saw the boat on the roof. I just didn't put it on there. What was your first meeting like with Russell Targ? And I'll just say, folks, if you've not heard of Russell Targ, I interviewed him last year and it was wonderful, much like yourself, Joe, to speak to Russell. It was incredible to speak to, incredible gentlemen, much like yourself. But Hal Putov and Russell Targ, what was it like meeting them? Was it the first time together or was that separate? I met them both at the same time. Russell's a unique individual. You're absolutely right. He's legally blind, but he rides a small motor scooter to work. And we always knew when he was arriving at Stanford because, the research center, because you could hear all the horns off the cars beeping at him. He just fell right in front of him. So, but, but he was a, a unique guy. He, he, uh, pretty much a Buddhist from a spiritual standpoint and, uh, was always interested in the more spiritual sides of it while Hal Putov, the man in charge of the lab was more involved in the, uh, science, the, the protocol, keeping the protocol pure. Uh, the protocol is interesting. You can't, if you, if you want to do a remote viewing, the actual protocol is you have to be in a room with whoever's in there with you can't know what the target is either. So you're, everybody's totally blind. There's no hints. You just sit there with a pad of paper and a pen or a pencil and you try to figure out what it is that's coming into your head about that location. So, uh, what I've learned over the years, I've been doing this for 48 years now. I like to think of it as a martial art of the mind. Uh, when you first start, you can hit some things over about two or three years, you can get fairly good at it and produce information of good enough quality for intelligence, but over 10 or 15 or 30 years, you can really produce some interesting, uh, some interesting work. Um, just before I retired, I did a, uh, test for one of the agencies. I can't name the agency, but, uh, what I did is I tracked a spy. They asked me if I could track a spy and I said, sure. And I was called three times over a few, few months. And, uh, usually it was at an inappropriate time. They'd call me on the phone and say, where's the spy now? Well, and all I had to target that person with was the social security number and social security number doesn't tell you if it's male or female and they could be any age 14 to 75. So, and nobody in the lab, cause I had been working in the labs for about 33 years by then. Nobody in our lab knew where the person was from or who it was. And, uh, and yet the first three times I was called, I drew the picture of exactly where that person was standing. So over the years, your skillset gets better and better. Uh, people think that remote viewing is simple. It's easy. It's just like closing your eyes and seeing something, but you learn a lot about it over time. Like closing your eyes is not a good idea because when you close your eyes, you're cutting out, you're cutting out all of your perceptive powers for smell, touch, feel, emotion, everything except visual. When you close your eyes, you're looking to see something. It's not the same thing as seeing it's perceiving. And so calling it remote viewing was a mistake. It makes everybody think you only close your eyes and see something. Now, if that's all you think about it, that's not remote viewing. Um, secondly, a lot of people who don't do well, they'll give them a hint. Um, like if they're looking for a missing person, they may say what the person, they may show them a picture of the person. Um, that's a violation of the protocol because when you see the person, you'll start making assumptions about them based on how they look, what their sex is, how old they are, those kinds of things. You don't want to be doing that. You want to be getting totally what's coming in psychically. And so any violation of the protocol, uh, it's not remote viewing. It may be psychic functioning, but it's not remote viewing. So, so let me say this then, Joe, because I think some of the things that people level at you, for example, when I spoke to some of my friends to say, I've got a remote viewer coming on. This is what remote viewing is. A lot of them, when I say, what would you ask them? Cause I like to do that. Sometimes folks have got no interest in these topics just to see what they would say. And a lot of the times they come back with things like, well, why don't they just remote view the lottery numbers? But that, that's to your point, you can't just go and see something that you know, or you're expecting. It's got to be that, that blind target. Um, well, over the, over the years, I've been tested on words, uh, as an example, uh, in, in the case where I was doing the words, we were a half a mile apart in two different trailers. And the people that were invent, uh, you know, were randomly choosing the word and they were using these big white cards, one by one foot cards with a black letter. And they were spelling the word out on a, on a whiteboard. They would put these cards up on the whiteboard on a ledge. So the word was clearly visible. Well, I did seven words and I got five of them. So they said, you must be seeing the word. And I said, no, I don't think I am. I think what I'm doing is something different. So let's do two more words. And this time, scramble the letters, which they did. They scrambled the letters and just put them up on the wall. Well, and I still got the words and, and I think the reason why is what you're getting is the sense of the meaning of the word and then working backwards to fit it into the number of letters they want to see, like a seven letter word or five letter word, that sort of thing. So it, it doesn't work the way you make assumptions about it. So, so you, you have to be very, very careful. And the second problem is every human being on the planet is different. There's no two people on this planet that are identical. We all think differently because from birth to whatever age you are, you're different socially, economically, uh, educationally, intelligently, uh, religiously, spiritually, all these different things change your culture, even impacts heavily on how you believe, what you believe, how you think. So you can't, you can't say, uh, you can say remote viewing can be done by anyone. That's true. But only with some training, can you say, I'm now wearing like a white belt for remote viewing to get to the Brown belt. It's going to take years, five years, maybe it actually in training someone for remote viewing who has a natural talent, it takes about two years for them to produce things of value. So, um, in the, in the military, when we used it, that training process was there. Uh, when I first started, I had 24 straight failures and the primary reason why is my ego got in the way, I thought it was a great psychic because of the good job I did at Stanford. No, it, it's exact opposite. Ego, you got to get your ego out of it because ego is what destroys it. Um, there's just so many things you have to learn. And, and I think people want it to be easy though. They, they, they, they want, they think, oh, well, you just draw a picture of where the person is. So it must be something you see. No, it's perception. And you have to build that picture bit by bit. And it takes a, it takes a long time to learn how to do that in your head. Uh, and everybody is affected differently by it. Everybody perceives things differently. Uh, but I think, I think one of the difficulties comes out of the fact that when we, uh, walk into a place and we look at it with our eyes, we're thinking we're in our head, looking through eyes and we're seeing something that's not true. What's happening is we're seeing a field of nothing but energy, photons and whatnot, and our rods and cones and our sensors are picking it up, sending it to an area in the back of our skull where we're deciding what all that means. And so we're never actually, actually seeing what's there. We're actually observing what the parts that we need to assume what it is. So you can take 10 strangers into a room that's empty and leave them in there for 30 seconds and bring them out and say, what's the room used for? And you'll get 10 different answers because people only see what they need to understand what the room is. You understand where I'm going with this? Yeah, absolutely. Um, does remote viewing then, you say ego plays a part of it and bias can play a part of, of the interference in what you're perceiving. Yes. I'll tie this back in then. Many folks would say things like remote viewing or whatever you want to call it have been something we as a species have been able to do for, for many, many, many millennia. Oh yeah. But it's over that time. Hundreds of thousands of years. Yeah. Over the time though, I suppose in modern days, you know, your coffee, your cigarettes, your alcohol, the technology around you, the religions around you, Western culture, wherever you live, all of that, then do you feel that dampens those abilities and suppresses it? Yeah. Well, the problem is if you go back far enough, humans for probably 10,000 years had no language. There was no, letters didn't exist to make a language and all we, all we could do is grunt and point and make emotional sounds maybe. So, so in some way we were communicating in the communication had to be effective because if the men are hunting and the women are gathering, we're, we're vulnerable. If you're out there hunting a dangerous animal and there's only six men and you're very tiny little tribe, uh, you got to know what each person is doing exactly when they're doing it in order to, to, to survive. So what remote viewing is based on, I think what it comes out of is this mechanism that I would call a survival mechanism. It's, it's like the way we thought to stay alive and we could interact with one another probably in a psychic way to ensure that survival where, where we came into a problem is when we started trusting other small tribes. I think most of the tribes of people were probably less than 15 people. They were probably more related to one another than not. Uh, they maybe take mates from other tribes in order to keep the DNA pool healthy, but, but we didn't trust any other tribes. And so when two tribes started coming together and sharing a cave, there's some issues came up. If you can read the intentions of someone just by looking at them, that's a dangerous thing because now you're, you're sitting across a fire from a stranger and he's, maybe he's oogling your woman or he's checking your spear out and you just come across the fire and kill him because he's threatening your, your means of survival that can't work. So mother nature does what mother nature does. It makes changes or it puts in filters to prevent that from happening. And over time, as you're building language and you're building the capacity for writing and keeping records, that, that mistrust is filtered in some way to, to tamp it down. So there's more cooperation. And over time, you now have ways of going somewhere and reading about something, studying about something, getting an answer out of Google now. So, so you don't need to be that, that ultra sensitive person anymore. Uh, it, that's what we've progressed to. The problem is it's a very basic nature that we have that, that has caused us to become survivors against the world where there were way more capable animals with teeth, huge fangs, size. I mean, when you stop and think about the fact that we've, we're the ones covering the earth now and the cave bears aren't, it tells you something. Uh, it's that intellectual part or the psychic part that I think was part of the survival mechanism. And what, and where you see that, if you see it in combat with soldiers, surviving soldiers, you see it in the police departments, sheriff's departments, border, border guards, that sort of thing, where they operate alone in many cases or operate after dark. They, in order to survive, they have a situational awareness that's very heightened in comparison to your average person. And you also see it in, uh, uh, firemen, uh, firemen will go into a building to fight a fire from different angles with the hoses, but they all seem to know when to back out before the building collapses. How's that work? And even, I've even talked to surgeons who have the ability to know what to do on a crunch in the surgical suite where they don't have time to react. They just make the right decision. Uh, so, you know, it's part of our natural ability. It's just that more people have used it since birth where others haven't. So, if, if I had not grown up, I think, in that, that ghetto where I was at risk all the time, I probably would not have developed the ability that I had to survive any of the army experiences. Uh, it's certainly not, uh, the remote viewing would, would have been terrible because I had never, would have never used it before. I wouldn't even think about it. So I, I think there are some people that are just have a propensity for going in that direction. And those are the people who become really good remote viewers. The, the idea that anybody can do it is true, but the idea that you don't have to work at it is not, I mean, you really got to work at it. I've been working at this, improving my skillset for over 45 years and, and I've never stopped. I kept hammering away at it. So, if you stop, you, your progression starts to fall away because it has a lot to do with your belief structure, has a lot to do with what you accept as truth and not truth. Uh, so it, it's a complicated issue. Let, let's take you back to the army then, and you've got those, those initial days and weeks underway. You've had those successful tests. You think there's something to this. What then happens? What's the process from there? I think one of the major milestones is coming to, coming to having to accept the fact that you actually can produce something very specific about an area, place, an event, a thing that you have absolutely no access to. And the reason why is because if the protocol is kept pure, which means you have no access to any, any information about the target, everyone you're interacting with has no access to that. And you produce something that, for instance, saves a life. When you go look back at it historically and you know what you did to affect that, you go, wow, I, that's a gift. That's something I've never realized that I could do. And it makes, it improves you immediately by the, by your having to acknowledge that you can do something you never thought possible. So you grow, you grow spiritually, you grow physically, you grow mentally, you grow in all different ways. And that progressive improvement in your, in your active, in your abilities has a profound effect on you. You just keep getting better. That where, where the problem comes in is where that protocol is not kept pure. And let's say you're working on a missing person or somebody who's been kidnapped, for instance, and somebody says, well, they were, they were taken from this city. Well, they just introduced the probability of where they might've gone from there. When in fact, they might've changed their whole modus operandi anyway. When General Dozier was kidnapped in Ravenna, Italy, he was taken by the Rote Brigada, the Red Brigade. Now, their modus operandi was to immediately cross into an iron block country and disappear. And, and so that was the reason you could never find them and you'd have to pay a ransom or something and get the person back. In this particular case, they had a 12 hour headstart and there were nine countries they could have gotten to in 12 hours, but they didn't do that. They changed completely. They went across the old, the new town area to the old town area. This is the same city. And the reason we knew that is because two remote viewers walked in and said that they said he's being held in a city named Padua. And Padua was the archaic name for the very city he was taken from. So that told him two things. He's in the old part of the city and he's in the same city. And that changed the whole modus operandi. So that made the, the, the finding of him much easier. Now there were a lot of other stuff that came to play. The police got ahold of a cousin or an uncle or something of one of the red brigade members who knew when they showed him a dead end road that he had a, uh, an apartment in that building. So the police said, well, if they got him there, they might've taken them into the apartment. And so, you know, a lot of things started coming together. That's how remote viewing works. It doesn't come up with the app's actual answer, but it comes up with bits and pieces that glue other information together. Uh, it, it, it does things that allow the analysis to have sort of an open window on one side where they can see things that make the other things more valuable that they already know. For, for you, Joe, was, was it a transition period from the early days of the initial testing to going into more serious cases and finding individuals? What, what was that transition like? Well, I could, I can give you a primary example. I, I wrote a paper on it 35 years ago and, and it's an important paper because where I got the information from had nothing to do with remote viewing. I started thinking about what makes remote viewing work and work better. And what I noticed was all the elements that make any business in the world profitable has to be in remote viewing. And, and the very first thing out of that is intention. You have to intend to, to, to build a company that's going to make money. If you don't have a clear intention for how to do that, it's never going to happen. If you don't have everybody on the same intention, it's very difficult to make it happen. All your employees have to have a shared intention with you in order for your business to do well. Well, in remote viewing, it's the same thing. So one of the reasons why it worked so effectively in the army is almost without exception, every case we worked on, and we worked for 17 of 19 major intelligence agencies in America, every case we worked on was a life and death issue. Maybe it was somebody taken, uh, uh, taken by force and tortured, being tortured to death for information. Well, if they knew that everybody in the room had the intention of saving that person to include the viewer. And you could feel it when you walked in the room, everybody wanted to get to the same thing. It's unbelievable. The way that consolidates information collection. It's incredible. So we were able to do really exciting things with the remote viewing in the military because almost without exception, all of our tasks were life and death issues. It, it, it made all the difference in the world. You go out and start playing with remote viewing on where did your buddy go last night when he had his girlfriend, girlfriend with her with him. No, no, that's not going to work because half the people in the room trying to con conceptualize that don't care. You know, it's, it's one of the reasons you do an experiment with, with remote viewing in a, in any lab. Uh, you, you start off with the fact that the scientists in charge doesn't care whether it succeeds or fails because they get to publish. That's their whole job. Keep a, keep a neutral interest and publish whether it failed or succeeded. That the only person in, in a experimental view from an experimental viewpoint, viewpoint about remote viewing, it's a remote viewer who wants to be successful. Everybody else is off somewhere else in their head with intention. But if you walk everybody into a room and the, the scientists in charge goes up to the whiteboard and says, we want to be successful here because if we can't, we will get no money for more research and everybody will have to go find work. You see how that brings everybody together to be successful. Okay. So you, you get everybody on the same sheet of music with intention. So the second thing you got to worry about is the details of it. When you build, when you build an operation, they reach a certain point. You have to understand the steps that are necessary and all the details about that. If you have everybody on the same sheet of music, everybody understands the details that need to succeed, then your expectation for outcome becomes the third thing that you got to worry about. If everybody shares the same expectation, guess what? It works like gangbusters. Throw a frivit in any of that and it starts falling apart. It's, it's, it's the way business works. So why shouldn't remote viewing work that way or why shouldn't artistic endeavor work that way or inventions work that way? They all, everything works that way, uh, which is why I generated the paper. And so it's not, it's not simply you bring somebody in and say, you show a little psychic ability. So give us a psychic answer for this thing that we have a problem with. And the people standing in front of, you know, all about the problem and half the people don't care if you're successful or don't believe you ever will be. It's not going anywhere. You understand? Yeah. And, and the reason I could say that is I've got 35 plus years in research on the research side. And I've got 45 years in the collection side and I've got all the in between with my own company where I supported major businesses, individuals, sheriff's departments, police departments, missing people, missing kids. I've got a lot of experience in this. And, and I've been tweaking that skillset all along the way. I thought I was the most powerful psychic in the world when they told me I had such a good result at Stanford. So, uh, I didn't realize that ego impacts on it heavily. Uh, egos where you want to be in charge of everything. You want to be in control of everything. And in remote viewing, you can't be in control of any of it. It has to be that you have to take your, your mind that's in control and you have to back away and you have to let whatever happens, happens. You can't make any assumptions. You just take whatever comes in and provide it. You don't make any judgment calls. So I went through 24 failures and I was about to the point of quitting and, uh, had a target where I didn't, I didn't get anything, but I got a major headache. And when we, when we did the feedback, it was pretty poor target. I didn't get much on it. I just started getting a headache. And I said, the headache, I can't make it go away. There's something about this target. It's giving me a headache. So we went to get the feedback. They took me to the actual target. And what it was, was the, the, uh, Fort Meade fire station where they had a whole row of these fire trucks. And what I recognized when I saw the fire trucks is I kept getting this color lime green. And in a million years, I would never would have said a fire truck was lime green because they're all red except on Fort Meade. They're lime green. And so we're parked in front of the fire station. And I said, well, I remember seeing the lime green, but I'm wondering where the headache came from. And that's when all the alarms are off and all the doors open and all the sirens came on. And we had to drive away from there very quickly because you couldn't even hear from all that noise. And I said, that's probably where I got the headache. So I started paying attention to more things about my perceiving versus seeing, uh, that's when I started figuring it out that remote viewings, not, it's not really about seeing it's about perceiving. And so I started paying attention to taste, smell, hearing, uh, sight, emotions, you know, physical impact, all these different things. And I started getting better and better at it. So my, uh, where I really, really came through, uh, was in, well, within a couple months of my beginning, I'd been doing, uh, exercises, mostly practice for about six months trying to get better. And I finally got a couple operational missions to work on. And one of them had to do with, uh, a building in, uh, Severodavinsk, Russia. It's north of the Arctic Circle. There's a harbor there and the harbor's almost always iced in. They keep two big, uh, icebreakers parked at the entry. Uh, but it's a, it's sort of a secret area and they have a huge building there. I mean, it's a monster building that, uh, you could put a whole shopping center and then it wouldn't touch the walls of the ceiling. I mean, it's just huge. And it had, uh, all kinds of guards around it and fencing and security and they had railroad tracks going in. So they were taking in car loads of materials that were covered in the, the cars were coming out empty. And this had been going on for a number of years and every intelligence agency had taken a crack at it. Nobody could, could get anything. They couldn't buy a picture of the inside of this building. I think they were offering millions of dollars for just a photograph of the inside. Couldn't get it. So, uh, that became my, my primary target. I and another, another man who was, uh, one of the original six viewers that was recruited. His name was Hartley Trent and Hart Hartley in many ways was a better remote viewer than I'll ever be. But Hartley and I were the two that were working on that particular target. And we both said the same thing on the same day. What we said was they're building a different kind of submarine. And the reason we said submarine is because it was, it looked like one. Only the difference was it, they were taking two sub hulls and putting them together and then wrapping it. And they were using new welding techniques where they were using high intensity lasers to do the welding. And some of the steel was eight inches thick or thicker. And they had moved their launch tubes from the rear to the front, which was a totally different aspect. And, uh, anyway, over, over three or four psychic missions against this particular building, uh, between the two of us, we came up with the idea that they were building this monster submarine that was the biggest submarine ever conceived. And they asked me, uh, I remember they asked me one day, uh, the monitor I was working with. Now the monitor knows nothing either. What, what we found is the monitor can be as psychic as the psychic that's working the target. The monitor will sometimes ask exactly the right question to get the response that solves the problem. We don't know how that works, but it does. And, and the monitor, uh, said, well, exactly how big is it? And I said, it's around 30 feet shy of the length of a Soviet aircraft carrier. Uh, and they said, oh, that's not possible. I said, but that's true. And, and there were some other things about, uh, they slanted the missile tubes so they could launch on the move where before they had to stop the launch that made them vulnerable, things like that. And there were a whole lot of things I can't talk about, but we painted this huge picture of this huge submarine and we sent that to the national security council. Now national security council, this target had been bumped up to the national security council. They're like the, the end of the road that they get the, the, the problems that no one else can solve. And they only work on one. And, and this was the target they'd been working on and they had nothing. And unfortunately the, the man who was in charge of the analysis team at the national security council was Robert Gates. Robert Gates was the head Russian analyst. He ran, he ran the whole Russian floor of analysts in Langley at the time, the CIA. So he was, he was on loan to the national security council. Well, he got our report and we saw our report. He sent it back. He refused to take it. He said, this is total fantasy. And the reason he said it was total fantasy is because the building is not connected to the harbor. There, there, there's no way to launch anything out of this building. So he said it was total fantasy. Well, the man who brought it back to me, my remote viewing back to me was a admiral by the name of, uh, uh, Stuart. Uh, I had known Admiral Stuart for a number of years, so he knew me. He brought the reports back to me and on top was a paper that said total fantasy RG. And I said, who is RG? And he said, Robert Gates. And he explained to me that he was the senior Russian analyst. And I said, well, no, take it back. This is true. And he said, well, he's not going to take it. And I said, take it back and, and tell him he's got to pay attention to this. So he said, well, I'll take it back. And he picked it up and I said, wait a minute. And I put my own paper on top. What I said was fantasy will be launched in 112 days. Jay. And that was kind of a comical way of answering his note. It, it, it peeved me. It made me angry. And I wanted to like, let Robert Gates know whoever Robert Gates was. He's an idiot. So, so Admiral Stewart took it. But what's interesting is he knew me. He knew that I, when I'm serious about something, it should be paid attention to. So in route back to the national security council, what he did is he went through, he went to the reconnaissance people and he ordered up a couple overheads to take pictures 114 days out. He figured if I was correct, that would be the appropriate time. So that's what he did. And 114 days later, when they got their pictures back, there was this monster submarine parked right next to a Russian aircraft carrier. And they were hiding, they put it next to the aircraft carrier to hide it from view at the entry of the harbor. And he said, unfortunately, you were wrong about the length. It's not 30 feet shy of the length of the Soviet aircraft carrier. It's 33 feet shy of the length of an aircraft carrier. So it embarrassed the hell out of Robert Gates. Now, Robert Gates eventually became the director of the CIA. While he was the director, he shut the remote viewing program down. I'm not saying the reason why here. I'm just saying it's interesting. Yeah. And then he eventually became the secretary of defense. I believe he's a political animal and he's not a real military tuned person. But what in fact happened is they opened the side of the building up, cut a channel from the building corner to the harbor and launched it out of the end of the building. And nobody knew that would happen. But we knew that it was a submarine and it was a different kind of submarine. This submarine is so wide in the back. It's like, oh my God, it's like 35 meters across width wise. It's huge. And it actually is two tubes married, which nobody in their right mind would build a submarine that way. But they did. And it was the first, it was a TK-089. It was a prototype for the Typhoon class submarine, which could park off of any country, 100 miles off of any country and eradicate it in 18 minutes. Because it carried 20 MERV-5s, all independent directable warheads. So, it's a huge threat. What they did, the Russians did, is they made eight more of them. And we never heard about the other eight. We never knew they built them. So, the fact that we had all the intel from the photographs on that one gave us enough information to defend against it, I believe. I don't know for sure. I don't care. All I know is I tipped them off and Hartley Trent tipped them off to the fact that that's what they were building. And no other intelligence agency could collect anything on it. Did the results of your work in that case change how the intelligence community threat you going forward? Oh, it changed it dramatically. Now, part of the people that became knowledgeable of that were very supportive. We had some senators, Senator John Glenn, who was an ex-astronaut. Senator Cohen, who has been a personal friend. Some of the senators were very supportive. They didn't care if it was psychics. They didn't care. We were getting good information. And they felt very supportive of us. But there were almost an equal number of people on the other side who, for religious reasons, didn't want to be participating. We were doing the work of the devil as far as they were concerned. I had to give demonstrations sometimes to the select subcommittee for intelligence because they were the ones who would approve the money year to year. And the approval of the approval of the money that kept us in business was based on successes and failures. So we had to have at least enough successes to keep funding coming in for the next year. That kept us alive for 23 years. But eventually, the people that didn't like using psychics because it was an affront to them, religiously or spiritually, gained enough power to shut it down. That's my belief, only my belief, because I had senior senators walk away from me in rooms and accuse me of doing the work of the devil. So, I had other senators say I was doing God's work to keep it up. That sounds very familiar, I think, to folks listening or watching this, the UFO topic. In recent years, we've heard about how many folks in the halls of government and the military, you know, at the highest levels of power, see this as a demonic phenomenon. That these are demons. Yeah, and it's not. It's a threat. The whole idea behind the Stargate program was to address a threat. We knew that the Soviets were using psychics. We didn't know if that was a threat or not. So, the Gondola Wish program, which is what it was called at the beginning, it was designed to only last for three years. The first year, they would search out and find psychic people in the army with clearances, bring them to the headquarters, train them, and then send them out in the world to target only our stuff. You know, like the White House, the Pentagon, places like that. DIA, NSA, CIA. Target those buildings. And then, after a year of collecting, using only psychic ability, they would bring us back in, take that material, and turn it over to an independent agency, who would evaluate its value. If it was valuable, they would know then that it was a threat and needed to be countered. If it was trash, they'd know that that's probably as good as what the Soviets are doing, and it didn't need to be defended against. Okay? What happened is we got the response on the submarine. Then we found a Russian plane that went down over the Congo in Africa. It was carrying nukes. Everybody wanted to find that plane. Terrorists, everybody. They looked for that plane for five years. Nobody could find it. We had three psychics that found it in four hours. They put guys on, they roped in off the helicopters and met natives on the ground carrying parts of that plane back to their area to patch holes in the roofs of their huts. So, we found the plane, and President Carter gave an interview to news people where he actually said, he was holding a folder and it said grill flame on it, which is the new name for the remote unit. And a reporter asked him, how did you find the plane after so long? And he said, we used our psychics. It was no longer grill flame. It became center lane then, and we all got moved. You know, everything changed. And we had our name changed like five or six times because everybody wanted to know about us, and everybody that found out about us talked about us, and it was pro and con then, and arguments, and, you know, all we wanted to do was do the work because it worked. It was a threat, and we needed to determine how do you block a remote viewer. Well, in 23 years, I can tell you, you can't. It's impossible. Now, what you can do is you can do exactly what they do now for encryption. You can delay them knowing something by hiding something. And what is that? Well, if you've got a new kind of nuclear weapon, what you do is you park it in a bunker surrounded by old nuclear weapons. Right. Okay? It's hidden in a mass, or you hide it in a pile of the same thing, somewhat similar thing. A good remote viewer, it would take an excellent remote viewer to find it. Eventually, they would, but by then, it may not be as important to defend that information as before. It's like encryption. You encrypt something, I will tell you there's no encryption that can't be broken. But it may take a half a year to do that. By then, the information is no longer of value. So, it's of value. But they decided, for some silly reason, I don't know what it was, that they were going to shut it down, which they did. And it was an extreme value, as far as I'm concerned. Now, the CIA says it never did anything of value for them. Well, I can tell you, I did over 200 missions for the CIA. And they kept coming back for 23 years. So, that don't, that, as they say in America, that dog don't hunt. Yeah. That's what blows my mind with this. Pardon any kind of pun that might come across there. That this capability, whether people see it as a weapon, as an asset, as a mechanism for defense or attack, would be shut down by a superpower that it just seems it was so useful and wielded such incredible results. Do you believe it still is happening now in some way, shape, or form? No, I don't. And here's the reason why. Um, there's, basically, there's 40 years of research behind remote viewing. That's the knowledge of how to make it work the best way possible. No one's ever come and gotten that information. And I can say that because we're sending it all to Rice University in Texas, in Houston, Texas, because they're the historians for this stuff. No one from any agencies ever come and ask us for help. And I participated for 30, 35 years in the research side. I was tested the whole time, 35 years, and I never failed a test. In fact, I surprised many people. When, when the wall came down and things changed in the, in Russia and other places, uh, Ed May, the man running the unit, uh, the research side, uh, he and I went to Russia twice and we met our counterparts. And I actually did experiments in their DACA outside of Moscow with their top psychic and blew the minds of the Russian scientists who had never seen something happen like we did. And, and, and what we basically did was real simple, two deprivation chambers, half a mile apart. And we were told to decide first who was a center and who was a receiver and then pass a message. And we could invent that message. And we had two digit pads in our laps. We were both in deprivation chambers and we both arrived at the same conclusion simultaneously. You don't need to know who the center and receiver is if both have the same message, right? Okay. So we put the message on the board and when they brought us to the control room and turned on the computers, it was a butterfly. You could fold it out. They were outside of some very tiny differences. It was identical. They wouldn't even let us take copy that home with us. So are the Russians still working at it? No, we, we know the three-star admiral that was running their program. They shut theirs down too. That, that blows my mind. I think that's crazy. And in general, we're going to move on to, to another session that happened. I believe after your time in the Stargate program and whatnot and onto some other, other parts of this conversation. But overall, what it says to me, I've written down here, surfing, like you said, you can't, you can't control remote viewing in a sense, but the information is always of a similar quality. You just get better. And for me, it's like a wave where you can learn to ride the wave and you can learn to ride the wave better, but you can't control the wave. Is that, is that fair? That's right. Yeah, that's a fair statement. If, if there's information there of value, that's, uh, that someone's attempting to hide or cover or blend in with something else, it, it will uncover it. You can't, you make, can't make it go away. Uh, you, you, you, if it's done properly, if it's, like I said, if you're following the protocol, exactly, it's possible to get information of value out of anything. You can't prevent it. So one of the cases that so many people wrote to me, asking me to ask you about as the, the ancient Mars session. And I think that's when people bring up remote viewing, it's one of the most discussed cases. I know you'll have spoken about this Joe many times, but if you don't mind just reframing it for folks who may be unfamiliar and what that originally was all about. That is all for part one. Part two will be out in the next couple of days. You can listen to this episode already in full, ad-free and with no sponsors for less than the price of a coffee. If you head on over to Patreon or Apple, you can subscribe to the podcast for less than the price of a coffee or take up the two weeks free trial that are available on those platforms. You can head on over to Spotify and search That UFO Podcast Premium and get access to this episode in full, no adverts, no sponsorships, and also with some extra bonus content as well. Thanks for listening, folks.