Jasun Horsley | Agents Of The Second Matrix, Traumagenesis, & Prisoners of Infinity

Here comes the free first hour of a higher side chat show But before we get too deep into it There's a couple things to know The shorter version proves the value And lays out what we can do It's just about an hour long But imagine how we do It's time, click the link right in the show notes But it can't provide if you subscribe Five full-length shows a month Try to make it easy, plus works with all the apps Get a seven-day free trial Jesus says give plus a chance If you use Spotify, that's cool We can work with that, just sign up through the Patreon Your dirty techno crap The planet's puppet masters almost surely have a plan There's clearly maybe something there beyond the realm of man And until we've thoroughly tested every last close chest of view I find the more we think we know, the less we really do Where would we be without THC? Because we know they're lying to us, just don't know to what degree Where would we be without THC? The higher side chat show Greg Carlwood and company Serenity now, my damies From the Sunshine State I'm Greg Carlwood And while it's easy to judge the more conventional among us As intellectually lazy and grossly naive For their blind faith in a clearly corrupt infrastructure Designed to maintain control and extract value Not distribute truth and encourage us to be our best selves To be fair about it, it's also lazy and naive To perpetuate alternative media hype stories That would never pass your filter for more conventional types of information As much as it is to suspect that everyone with a microphone That you don't agree with must be an intelligence asset piss boy With shadowy think tank funding Though the facts remain that controlled opposition and COINTELPRO Are real things, Operation Mockingbird has become the standard And an endless list of influences and algorithms Are desperately trying to sway your thoughts and keep your attention And as exhausting as it can be to be so guarded and skeptical We owe it to ourselves to constantly reexamine our own perspectives And make sure they really are, not only our own, but useful perspectives To navigate this life in a fulfilling way that you can be content with in the end Well, today we welcome back Jason Horsley Who I think poses these challenges to the conspiratorially minded More often than almost anyone else within the alternative media landscape Some say for better, some say for worse But he no doubt occupies a unique place in a subculture of so much sameness He's the author of books like Seen and Not Seen, Confessions of a Movie Autist The Kubrickon, The Cult of Kubrick, Attention Capture, and The Inception of AI The Vice of Kings, How Socialism, Occultism, and the Sexual Revolution Engineered a Culture of Abuse And the main subjects of our last interview just last month Big Mother, The Technological Body of Evil, and 16 Maps of Hell The Unraveling of the Hollywood Superculture As well as the big offering on the table today A plethora of topics spiraling out of his book Prisoner of Infinity, Social Engineering, UFOs, and the Psychology of Fragmentation As well as his raw and honest assessment of the alternative media at large You can find his ongoing essays and podcasts at the Children of Job Substack And it's a pleasure to have him back The disinformation, deconstructor, social engineering, and former and cognitive dissident Jason Horsley, welcome back So while you were doing that frenetic intro, Greg, I was looking in the background And I saw what looked like Cthulhu, definitely an owl, and an inverted pentagram So you definitely got my paranoid spidey sense tingling So congratulations Well, this is an audio-only show, so it's kind of hard for the audience to know what you're talking about But what you interpret as Cthulhu is simply an octopus from an artist in San Diego A sea creature And the pentagram, I'm not sure Are you looking at the carpet that I have? No, behind the owl is an inverted pentagram Behind the owl? Yeah, the owl behind her side Over here? Yeah, yeah Oh, you're looking at a pillow, I think, that has a Higher Side Chats logo on it Which shows three impossible objects One has a UFO, one has a pentagram, and one has the eye and the pyramid Because those are the three pillars of the topics we talk about It's a little hard to express what a show would be about in symbols If you think those symbols are evil, then by default the show is evil But this is what we talk about So this happens a lot to me It's hard to represent these things without endorsing these things Or somehow seeming spooky But if someone was to look online in the sea of endless entertainment options And try to find something that they wanted to digest These are ways we convey what they are, what the show's about Didn't mean to put you on the defensive right away there, Greg It was just my way of getting the ball rolling Hey, I was ready for it I was ready for it And again, it's audio only So this is kind of like, in my head, I'm running two tracks One, I want to explain what you're saying And two, I'm like, the audience doesn't even know what we're talking about But that is a great example of how your skepticism Your innate skepticism and guardedness Lead you to conclusions that are wrong That's not Cthulhu That's just an octopus Well, okay, so now we're definitely getting into the meat and potatoes They're not necessarily wrong I mean, that is an inverted pentagram And it does signify satanic principles So using it for a logo is questionable The owl, that's an ancient symbol of witchcraft Of wisdom Consciously or not, you've chosen to have an ancient symbol of dark witchcraft even And then the octopus I agree, octopus is a beautiful creature So maybe that was a bit of a reach But it does look a bit casulonic Or casonic Well, let's talk about the pentagram So this is common People say it's inverted, it's inverted Well, in my limited knowledge of the occult Pentagrams are typically drawn as portals and rituals that would be on the ground So what is upside down? So what is upside down? What is inverted? When you're looking at something placed on the ground I'm also not an artist So when I commission an artist to draw a logo for me I say, draw a UFO An eye in the pyramid And a pentagram Because the pentagram symbolizes the occult Now, the artist happened to draw it in that orientation I didn't want to spend money on a revision So it is what it is But I think this obsession with orientation is a little silly Because as I said, the usefulness of the pentagram is often drawn on the surface of a floor So you could walk around it in any way And orientation is just based on your observation You want me to turn the pillow around so it's not inverted? And then it will look right side up? I'm not particularly sensitive to it It's not a personal complaint But your explanation, frankly, was a bit weak Because, yeah, sometimes it's on the floor so that's valid But if it's not on the floor, if it's on the wall or a vertical surface Or in this case a pillow Then it does have an orientation And then, secondly, since you do a show And have done it for many years That takes very seriously, I presume, the power of symbols Then why don't you take them equally seriously? Like, there are people who believe And I'm kind of on the fence here Because I haven't thought about it in a long time But there certainly are people who believe that a symbol has innate power And that it could trigger certain psychological responses in consciousness So, as I understand, the inverted pentagram symbolizes a satanic symbol Because it symbolizes matter over spirit If it's right way up Then that one point symbolizes the spirit being dominant over matter And then you invert it as matter over spirit That's my understanding So, it's possible that, let's say, a victim of satanic ritual abuse Would see that symbol and be triggered into some sort of program response That's something I would think that you'd want to be aware of Considering the fields that you work in You might really scare off a whole bunch of people Well, it's possible, but I don't really cater to, not to sound rude The lowest common denominator Like, I can't help if someone's triggered by something that is said Or viewed on the clips I mean, I should just put nothing back there Because something could trigger a person So, that's a little bit silly Hold on, I just wanted to say about what you said, matter over spirit Now, I've never heard that description But I would say that the content of the show itself Is clearly not endorsing a matter over spirit perspective And also, I said that the answer is twofold One, I think the orientation argument is a little silly But two, these are symbols the show is about So, even if you take a nefarious interpretation of the symbol Well, the show is about nefarious people with nefarious intent Affecting our lives So, I still think it plays, and it works And also, I just wanted to say the owl Because we didn't really touch on that I think the owl is a symbol of wisdom Now, if you say it's witchcraft Also, it doesn't really bother me The reason there's a few owls on my bookshelf Is because my buddies, who are more conventional thinkers Think it's funny to gift me owls It's just a thing that started happening One guy goes to TJ He gets me an owl Another guy does it from Thailand I have owls from around the world From my friends' trips Because they like to fill up my space With things that they think are silly And it just became a fun expression of friendship And so I display them Because I like my friends Well, I wonder if this is the best push to start Because I'm not going to back down, Greg So if we just keep on this subject We might never get to Prisoner Infinity I mean, we can stay on it if you want It certainly is a microcosm of something But I don't want this whole show to be about me Challenging you and criticizing your choices I think your listeners objected to me pretty strongly the last time Well, I just think this is fun That's why I wanted to have you back It is rare to have someone back so soon But I have nothing to hide I'm very comfortable in my positions I'm open to criticism Okay Well, let's make it more general And I'll let it be still about you Like I said, I'm not likely to change my view Of the use of symbols And the need for care in that And frankly, I think it's irresponsible To talk about lowest common denominator When you're referring to survivors of satanic ritual abuse Or occult ritual abuse on the one hand And then having a satanic symbol as one of your primary symbols I think that sounds pretty irresponsible to me And as a more general point though This doesn't mean that therefore I think You're not what you say you are Or I'm going to go out of the higher side chats As a honey trap Because a lot of this stuff is unconscious I mean, that last email I sent you about the superculture Has to do with how the values and the images And the symbols and the narratives Trickle down from what I call the superculture Into and as the culture that we identify And that we inhabit consciously That the culture at large Is a byproduct of this superculture So then you could be right about the owls I'm on the fence That's just been my experience And my understanding of that symbol Doesn't mean that it freaks me out If somebody has an owl on its own It's just in the context of other symbols And talking about the occult So the general point is Is that somebody doesn't have to be a shill Or consciously being Doing something that is dark Or destructive or malevolent To be co-opted without realising it Like you say all your friends Get you by you these owls So you go along with it But maybe your friends are being Manipulated and controlled Or just culturally indoctrinated In such a way, right? You must be very open to the idea That the culture at large Isn't as benign as we think it is We adopt symbols or images Or movies or icons That we think are harmless But they're not So that's the larger context And what I talk about responsibility That's been very much My developmental curve As a writer Or disseminator Of information and ideas Is having to become more And more conscientious And discerning About what I'm advocating Like my early books Which we've never talked about And I don't care to talk about them Particularly except in this context I had the name of A.L.S. Cephas And they were occultism In a sense they're paranoid awareness They were written In a certain impartial way Where I wasn't directly advocating These ideas I was just saying what if, what if But nonetheless I was basically resting Many of my models For understanding the world On sources that I now consider Wholly unreliable Such as Webby Streber Who maybe we'll get to today Eventually Carlos Castaneda John Keel Jack Valli Kenneth Grant Alistair Crowley The list is quite a long one Almost all of them I now consider to be Either conscious disinformation agents Or people who have been naively And have allowed themselves To be co-opted Because of naivety You know I actually tried to Completely redact The second A.L.S. Cephas books I went further Out on this dodgy limb With that one And I asked my publishers Just to destroy them all And that's something I'm kind of opposed to In principle I don't think one should try And erase one's past But I just felt that book Was too irresponsible To really want it to be out there Well see I'm seeing Contradictions in you Or I feel like it's a little Unfair for you to criticize What I think is a small thing A symbol and a logo That really does express This is what the show is about And you wrote an entire book About things you think are Negative and deceptive And yeah you had an evolution But I don't think you show A lot of grace For people who are on their journeys And maybe just haven't reached this place You have a kind of a superiority complex Because you're like I'm at the end of the race This is the absolute truth I have a monopoly on it And anyone who is further back In their own personal journey Must be a deceptive agent Because they must have bad motives As opposed to yourself Who is really just trying to navigate reality Digging into different things Trying on different hats And then ultimately putting those hats down And making more progress Towards your ultimate world view Like should we not all be allowed the same process And if you judge us at individual points In that process Is it absolutely fair To make the kind of general conclusions You make about people? Well you misrepresented me there Greg Because I was very clear That was my leading point That I don't equate Irresponsible Adoptation Adopting of dodgy narratives And beliefs And the rest of it With being a shill So that's the first point I mean that was your main point And I made it clear That I'm not doing that As to being too hard on Let's say or unfair With people who aren't shilling Who are just trying things on As you put it And getting it wrong I mean that's a case by case basis Like if that's your feeling With me personally Then that's one thing But you're making it a broader case Now I've been working with individuals And in groups Or with groups For years For even a decade or more And sometimes I get complaints But mostly I've been effective I think In terms of measuring The degree of Ruthlessness Or bluntness Honesty And frankly That's what I would have liked Or that's what I like now And what I would have Benefited from back then So I'm very opposed to This whole culture Of being nice Of being polite Of being considerate Of taking people's feelings Too much into account I think that's a massive sigh Up in itself But hold on Sorry That's what you wanted me to do With the symbol You wanted me to take Other people's feelings Into account No And this might be triggering To someone Well I can't control What's triggering To other people I'm casting a show out Onto the damn internet There's tens of thousands Of people listening And I'll talk about feelings If somebody's a victim Of ritual abuse And you trigger them Into some sort of alter And they suicide Or something I'm going to an extreme example I'm not really suggesting That could happen But just that's very different From feelings But I take your point So then even if we separate it From the possible consequences Of irresponsibly promoting Beliefs, narratives, images, symbols If we take away the consequences Or considering those consequences Because as a general principle I tend to agree We can't really What's the word I'm looking for We can't foresee anyway The results of what we do But is this truly representative Of what we're doing Or is this truly an accurate Portrayal of our values Yeah, your show isn't all about Satanic stuff Correct So it's a bit more than just It seems like it's become a logo A High Side Chats logo So that's not quite the same As this is the content This is more like This is what you represent Your values That's at least how I interpret it Well, what I said was These are the three pillars That most broadly Can define what the show is about Conspiracy Paranormal Or ufology And the occult So they just represent The content of the show In general But I can't believe We're 20 minutes Into this thing And I haven't even Asked the first question Because I do have What I think Is a pretty good Interview path Crafted here But I had you back Because I like you And I don't mind Being challenged By these things And I want to be liked And I'm trying to get you To like me And so far I don't think It's going very well Well, it's very honest Doesn't it? Right? So I like to be honest As well Despite what you might think of me So I appreciate you doing this again For the nonplus members You did pop into the members section And add some extra context To our last discussion In the comments And posted a few more links With enough material there That I really thought We could do a round two Despite comments like Probably your worst interview ever Or this guy sounds miserable in life Or this guest is my least favorite Type of person in some ways Or I'd rather watch paint dry Than listen to this guy Talk in riddles I mean, super harsh But there was just as much Positive feedback As you said Dividing responses down the middle Is usually a good sign And I know I'm just as polarizing A type of person for some But how do you think It went last time? Or what kind of feedback Did you see on your end? Oh, I got a bit of feedback I mean, people enjoyed it Because of the contrast I guess people who listened To your show Before they enjoyed Having somebody like me As a spanner in the works Which I don't know if you got So much of that From your own crew But this is more From my audience And then there are a few people Who felt it was interesting To see me Or hear me In a different way of expressing Which is true When I listened back I did find that I was a bit more I don't know if assertive Is the word But less relaxed Basically I liked My way of valuing Or evaluating Well, it's not really a criteria It's really It's a principle The more relaxed I am The more sense I will make And the more honest And true And authentic Or real I will be I would say that's true For everybody So yeah, listening back I didn't sound particularly relaxed So it wasn't that enjoyable At that level But it's understandable Because of that tension Right, well You make it hard for me to relax I tend to speak Pretty recklessly And pretty broadly And then you might Latch on to something I said And I was like Well, shit, I should have Chosen my words more carefully Which, you know Is good training for me I think it's important But you sent me this piece On superculture Kind of last minute But I did want to quote it As it is a good overview Of your perspective And criticisms Of alternative media You write Superculture practices Are represented Usually poorly Within the common culture By the many forms Of so-called conspiracy theory At the same time Confoundingly They give rise to Conspiracy culture Which is one of Several primary aspects Of the second matrix Other aspects Would be New Age philosophies Psychedelics Occultism Ufology And such To simplify this slightly If culture Roughly corresponds With the matrix A dream world That uses the energy Of our attention To keep us asleep Then the superculture Corresponds Even more roughly With a second matrix One that generates The first matrix And is waiting To capture those Who succeed In emerging from it More profanely The superculture Corresponds With the true Occult nature Of human society And is a kind Of parasociety A parallel world In which the Predatory superclass Move as farmers Amongst their livestock Examples of this Parallel world Can be found in accounts Of organized ritual Abuse Often with occult Or satanic elements Occurring in seemingly Ordinary social strata Such as daycare centers Schools, churches And hospitals Well, elaborate on that Because I endorse the idea Of a second matrix There's probably Even more than two But it almost sounds Like you're saying A person in a position Like me Can't even be part Of the solution Or a quest for Hunting down deeper truths We can only end up Being part of a second matrix I mean, how would you Draw that distinction? Doesn't your own work Use the energy Of attention To keep a person Reading? If the alternative Is boring and dull Aren't we all trying To be entertaining In the broadest sense? Well, certainly You need to be entertaining If you want to Keep people's attention And if it's not Entertainment You have a problem But it's just not Exclusively or Primarily entertainment In my view It needs to be a process Of self-discovery That then passes on To the audience member Facilitates a process Of self-discovery For that person Or that individual So that's a very simple principle I think in your intro You said something about How I practice internal affairs Within the community That we're in The conspiracy, occult, paranormal Ufo community Whatever, the alternative Sepsis community And the fact that That's rare Was part of your point That's part of my point Now is that If we're not actually Examining our own Complicity With the lies And the disinformation And the deception If we're not looking At the second matrix That we're dependent on And inevitably Helping to You know Give energy to it Then Well, we're doing it more Than we need to be If you see what I mean Like the more aware That we are Of being complicit With something The less complicit We become That's basically it It doesn't mean We can't help But be complicit It's just Surely that has to be Factored in When we're talking about Conspiracies and things Fair enough Well, what triggered The majority of the Blowback from the last episode I think came from When you called out Some previous guests As deceivers Or agents That most of the audience Don't see that way Diana Pasolka Jeff Kripal And Whitley Strieber In particular And you referred me To your book Prisoner of Infinity Social Engineering UFOs And the Psychology Which is like 70% about Whitley Strieber And he might be the one I'm least sure about I have more confidence In the researchers Than the experiences Because you just Never know Whitley and Bob Lazar Those are in a pretty Similar space in my mind I guess But the overall point Is that you think Researchers like these Three and probably Jacques Vallée too Represent an agenda To make ufology Something it's not And misrepresent What the phenomenon Actually is And to get a deeper Understanding of That perspective We have to have A better understanding Of your position In the book you say Your position is Now both complicated And very simple The UFO In all its manifestations Emerges from the human psyche Itself And in secondary But no less significant ways In and through The body Elaborate on that for us Because we have to really Know your position Clearly To see how This other position Could be deceptive All right Well so that's a very Broad Statement That you just quoted me And that makes it sound Or could sound That I'm just saying That nothing's really going on It's just some sort of Subjective experience Which as you know Prisoner Infinity Is not arguing that It's not like Carl Jung With his flying saucers Things seen in the sky Where he's saying This is a projection Of the psyche So just to be clear Starting there That's not my position In Prisoner Infinity But I do start Or include early on The ground Which really is When we're looking at anything We first need to look at The means by which We're experiencing it So we're experiencing Anything and everything Through the body And through the psyche And when it comes to the UFO And these so-called Abduction experiences This becomes more Essential I think To look at the ways In which Apparent subjective Material reality Overlaps and intersects With subjective And psychic realities So my premise With Whitley Strieber Was something happened To him It may or may not Have involved Some paranormal element But I wanted to Shelf the paranormal As long as possible And see if it was possible To explain it Without introducing Paranormal elements Something happened To him that was physical And that seemed to be Indisputably woven With his psychological traumas Which went back to Chartered So at least in part An explanation Slash understanding Of Strieber's experiences Is as a kind of Unconscious Psychological reenactment Of early childhood trauma I.e. something That's coming Through his psyche And through his body That is unprocessed In his life And that he is Not necessarily conjuring Because I'm saying There is an objective Physical reality But he's interpreting Whatever's happening to him Through these past traumas That he's projecting On to the present And then That this is combined Then with a human element That is Intentionally Orchestrating Experiences Or at least Overseeing And shaping And co-opting If there is a paranormal element These experiences In order to engineer Whitley Strieber To program him To reconfigure his psyche In such a way That he will become A disseminator Of narratives That are Useful To these agencies Which I say May include Paranormal And metaphysical In fact Frankly I'm convinced That they do involve Metaphysical Forces and entities It's just that That's much harder To get a fix on And so I didn't go Into that much In Prisoner Infinity But indisputably Human elements And indisputably Agencies Human agencies That have an agenda A socio-cultural And political agenda Which is very much What Prisoner Infinity Is about And how Strieber Was instrumental In that agenda Somewhat consciously Somewhat admits it But most of the time Doesn't And then these other Characters that you Mention I see As much more Obviously Accountable Because as you say Unlike an experiencer You don't really know What's happened to them They don't know What's happened They could genuinely Believe all that They're saying With some of these Other characters Who aren't Experienced It seems to me That one has to At least consider The possibility That they are Coinciously and deliberately Pushing these narratives That are part of This social engineering Program So just to summarize You think a person Like Whitley Strieber Who is experiencing Entities Is experiencing Them Because they're Reliving some Old trauma But that is Basically what A guy like Jeff Kripal Says You mentioned Trauma Genesis That these Paranormal High-strangest Experiences Like they come From trauma You criticize Jeff Kripal's Position as This thing You say Trauma Genesis But what You're saying Sounds like The same thing I mean Where is the Point of difference That I'm Missing Because It seems Similar They are similar It's funny I'm laughing Because Well you I'm laughing Because Kripal Himself As I think I included In the first Chapter He kept Trying to Say to me Yeah but It's the Same You know I'm not Saying what You think I'm saying Or we're Saying the Same thing And I can Say no We're not Saying the Same thing We're kind Of saying Opposite Things But opposites Often look Very similar So but the First point I'm acknowledging That childhood Trauma Can As Kripal Suggest I mean Well first of all One could say That they're very Different Because I Might be Arguing I'm not But you Haven't Pointed this Out I could be Arguing That Strieber's Experiences are All just Kind of Dissociative Fantasies That are A way to Relive Childhood Traumatic Memories As kind of These waking Dreams And there's Nothing Paranormal In there I'm not But I am Alive for That possibility Kripal on The other hand Is very Firmly Asserting That Strieber's Experiences Are real He never Questions Anything About them As the Reality Of them Including An implant A physical Implant He just Takes it All as Absolutely Real And so Kripal's Claim is That this Early childhood Trauma That Strieber Suffered from And Strieber Also Claims this Opened up His psyche In such a Way that he Accessed Higher states Of consciousness Accessed Spiritual realms Let's say There And hence The visitors And so on And so forth What I'm Saying is Is that To some Degree Yes It's Possible That An important Point is This was Deliberate And intentional Or at least Strieber and Kripal allow For this Strieber I think Is more Clear on This That he Was Deliberately Traumatized By Nazis Who had Been Imported Into the US Through Operation Paperclip As a Means To try And The Kind of MK Ultra Program And Strieber Vervently Denied Being Part of MK Ultra When I Said That Even Though It's The Same Time And The Same Place And The Same Methods That He's Talking About And The Same People Really If we Include Nazis In The CIA So That's An Odd Thing That Strieber Wants To Deny It's MK Ultra When Basically He's Talking About The Same Thing But Anyway Point Being It Was Intentional If It Was True And One Of The Results One Of The Intended Results Was This Cracking Of The Cosmic Egg This Accessing Of Psychic Power And Using Children Children's Psyches As A Way To Access These Metaphysical Realms And Make Stranger Things Of Course I Think It's About This To Some The Difference However There's A Number But I Think Perhaps The Largest And The Most Important One Is That Cride Paul Is Associating The Effects Of This Strong With Some Genuine Experience Of Spiritual Realms That He More Or Less Equates To Enlightenment He Puts It In The Same Category The Same Context As Enlightenment I Saying This Traumatization Of The Body That Fractors The Psyche And Allows Entities Non-benign But At Best Neutral But Certainly Not Spiritual Entities Not Higher Entities To Access That Individual's Body Their Psyche To Possess Them To Materialize It's A Horror Show I Mean You Only Have To Read Willie Streber To Know His Life Is Just A Living Horror Show He Himself Spins It As Something Like Enlightenment He's A Better Wiser More Powerful Superman As A Result Of It And That's Kripal's Shtick To Mutants And Mystics And His Whole Thing Is About Superhuman Powers Esalen Human Potential This This Is Not Spirituality Is My Point This Is Psychism They're Not Only Different They're Opposed In A Christian Frame One Is Satanic And The Other Is Divine But You Don't Have To Go All The Way There But I'm Not Saying They're Necessarily Mutually Exclusive One Can Develop Certain Abilities And Have Contact With Entities And Not Be Satanic But It Certainly Can Be So That's The Main Area Of Difference But As I Say There's Many More That Are Less Broad Fair And The Term Enlightenment I Mean Yeah I've Heard That Term Bandied About In Some Of That Material You Write Enough Books And You're Going To Search For Other Words But Enlightenment Is So Close To Just The Term Greater Awareness And I Think We Would Say He Has A Greater Awareness He Has A Wider Perception Of Things That Are Possible He's Perceiving Things That Other People Don't See And It Is A Effect From The Trauma And Sometimes When I Think There's Researchers Like Jeff Kripal Or Diana Pasolka They're Talking About Their Research And Their Observation Of This Phenomena And Their Conclusions And Observation Is Not The Same As An Endorsement Or Encouragement That We Should All This I Think A Lot Of People Like This Is Not A Good Thing But Like We Still Want To Know About It We're Still Curious About It It Doesn't Mean That Jeff Kripal Saying Hey You Want To Have This Experience Just Bring It Into Your Family By Abusing Your Kids Or Something Like That I Don't Ever Hear Anything That Sounds Like An Endorsement That Traumatic Engineering Methods Used By Allegedly Nazis And Definitely The CIA Would It I Wouldn't Really Expect That But By Implication Insofar As Kripal Is Not Distinguishing Between This Heightened Awareness As You Put It Which Is Really Psychism And And He's Not Questioning The Reality Of Schreiber's Experiences Which Is A Very Important Point Insofar As He's Equating That With Spirituality With A Very Desirable Goal Which Is To Get Closer To Reality Then He Is Implicitly Not Advocating But He's Implicitly Endorsing The Idea That Trauma Can Be Used For This End Implicitly Because He's Saying That Was The Result So That Is Justifying It He Can Say All He Wants To He Wouldn't Justify And He Doesn't But If That Were True It Would Be Justified If We Could Traumatize And Get To Enlightenment Well Yeah Why Not Yes But What Can One Do If A Guy Is 30 Years Old Or 40 Years Old Or 50 Years Old And Experienced Trauma As A Kid What Can One Do But Try To Transmute It Into Something Positive That's Not Endorsing Trauma Or Saying Everyone Should Want An Experience Like This You're Just Trying To Make The Best Find Some Silver Lining Of A Negative Experience But This Is Very Different I Mean This Is Really Near The Crux Of It Greg Because Developing Superpowers Is Not Like That's Not How You Heal The Trauma That's The Thing The Waiter You Talk About Making The Most Of One's Trauma But Surely If That Doesn't Lead To Healing That's Something Else That's Exploiting One's Trauma And So My Understanding What I Write About In Prisoner Infinity Is That Because Trauma Leads To Dissociation Because There's A Natural Defense Mechanism Built Into The Psyche And Into The Human Body That Dissociates In Conditions Of Unbearable Trauma And Because Dissociation Corresponds With Disembodiment And With A Kind Of Fleeing Into The Psychic Realms Because Of All That Then One Can Certainly Access All Kinds Of Paranormal Phenomenon And Even Develop Paranormal Powers But Only At The Price Of Embodiment And So One Is Essentially This Is Very Much Like Traditionally Mythologically It's Like The Devil's Bargain The Devil's Temptation He's Saying If You Want To Be Powerful All You Have To Do Is Sign Here It's Very Much Like That So An early Formative Experience Of Trauma Is One Of Being Utterly Powerless In The Face Of Something That's Destructive Or Even Malevolent And Of Dissociating Into Fantasies Of Being Powerful One Way Or Another Or At Least It Develops Into That And That Can Actually Have A Real Application Like We Can Develop Powers Through Dissociation And We Can Take That As Whitley Streber Did To The Bank We Can Just Continue On That Path Where We Keep Reinforcing The Idea That These Paranormal Experiences And These Entities Are Helping Us To Heal And So On And So For But They're Not They're Actually Taking Us Further And Further Away From Healing Because They're Taking Us Further Into The Psychic Realms Rather Than Back To The Original Trauma Which Is In The Body So That We Can Just Fully Power Fantasy Which May Also Have Reality So It Gets Difficult To Separate All These Things Out And Just Become Fully Human Just An Ordinary Human Being I Mean This Is So Much Part Of Our Culture That Somehow Life Is Supposed To Be Epic And Full Of These Fantastic Experiences You Know And I Fell For That For My First 20 Years Or Something Or Whatever It Was From Marvel Superheroes To Castaneda To Streba And Crowley A Big Part Of My Life Was This Chase For Superpowers Until At A Certain Point I Recognized That Something Was Driving Me And That Was In The Past And Then I Began To Realize That That Was Some Sort Of Formative Trauma And So I Reversed My Trajectory 180 Degrees And Rather Than Trying To Get Further Away From It I Started Going Back Towards It Hence My Orientation Is Back To The Land Back To Nature Back To Simple Things And Away From All This Dissociative Fantasy PH Fantasy It's Not That It's Not Real It's Just That It's Not Benevolent It's Not Fundamentally Healing Or It Doesn't Lead To Wholeness Well I Agree That It's Not Benevolent But My Whole Show Is Really Talking To People About Non Benevolent Things I Don't Think That Just Because It's Not Benevolent Doesn't Mean We Shouldn't Discuss It Or Unpack It I Mean We Talk About A Lot Of Corporations And The Evil They Do In The World That's Not An Endorsement It's Not Encouraging People To Behave That Way And I Wouldn't Call It Uselessness Because We Have To Understand What's Going On In The Greater World And I Also Endorse What You're Saying Getting Back To The Land Separating Ourselves From Culture A Little Bit Living A Humble But Valuable Life With Our Inner Circle I Think That's Part Of The Thought Process Of A Conspiracy Minded Person You See All This Negative Stuff Going On When You're Young And Idealistic You Think We Gotta Fix This We Wage This War Against The Cabal And Then Eventually You're Like Oh This Thing Is Way Bigger Than Me Has Existed Way Longer Than Me And I'm Kind Of Wasting My Time Trying To Fight It When I Should Be Really Aware Of It And Knowing About The Details Is Good There's Always Some New Scammer Scheme Going On But In Terms Of The I Endorse People Live Their Lives It's Like You Gotta Live Despite All This You Gotta Find A Way To Not Let It Bother You But You Can Still Have Curiosities I Mean I Don't Know I Don't Think That's That Big Of Deal But I Did Want To Talk To You About Your Personal Experiences So People Know You Are Coming From A Place Of Experience In The Book You Describe Being Visited By Beans Blue Beans With Hollow Eyes Is How They're Described At One Point Very Wild Stuff That Sounds Like It Would Have Come From A Whitley Streber Book But Then You Do Touch On In Your 20s And 30s You Were Something Of A Nietzsche Reading Anti-Christian Your Spiritual Path Entailed Psychedelic Ingestion Occult Rituals Shamanizing You Say You Performed All Sorts Of Elaborate Occult Workings Had Countless Visionary Dreams Entered Into Archetypal Realms And Saw Other Worlds And You Say That You Were For A Time The Sort Of Astral Uber Mensch That Streber Presents Himself As To His Readers And Listeners I Just Kind Of Think That It's Like You Went Down These Paths Harder Than 90% Of People Listening I Would Like To Extract Some Insight From Your Experience So I Don't Have To Do It But It's Kind Of Just Hypocritical To Dive In That Hard And Then Shut The Door And Be Like All This Stuff Is Evil And No One Should Be Touching It Or They're Evil I Don't Know I Just Find A Little Bit Of Contradiction In Your Level Of Exploration Which Is So Deep And Then Like Obviously You Can Come Out The Side And Say Don't Endorse That But I Guess Talk To Us About The Experiences Because I Just Want People To Know That You Are Not Just Assessing Whitley Streeper Third Hand You Have Had Similar Experiences Yeah And Surely That's The It Seems Contradiction What You're Saying Because Surely That Is If You Want To Know About The Wisdom That Is Gained Through This Experience Is This Is It This Is It It Might Not Be What You Want To Hear Because Most People Don't Want To Hear They Can Have Superpowers And All The Rest Of It But It Wouldn't Be Valid If I Hadn't Experienced It To Some Degree Myself I Mean Maybe There's Plenty Of People I Suppose Who Can Just Say It's A Bad Idea But It Tent Without Having Tried It But To Be Frank I Do Tend To Lean On A Christian Perspective When I Talk About These Things Currently Because It Simplifies It But That Wasn't My As You've Just Summed Up That Wasn't My Way And I Didn't Convert To Christianity I'm Not Saying It's All Evil I'm Saying It Doesn't Lead To Healing So Yeah My Experiences Were Wholeness My Experiences Were From My Early Twenties Reading Castaneda That Lit Up A Fire Inside Of Me That's A Castaneda Reference And I Thought This Is It This Is What My Life Has To Be About I Have To Find The Truth And It's Going To Make Me A Narhal Who Can Fly And So There Was Good And Bad In That My Whole Life Really Although It Wasn't Conscious Fully Conscious Until This Period I'm Talking About Has Been A Quest For The Truth That Was How It Began I Learned Spanish And I Went To Oaxaca Which Is Where Many Of The Tales That Castaneda Told Allegedly Took Place And A Bit Later I Was In San Francisco During The Same Period And I Met This Street Shaman Who Started Giving Me LSD And Taking Me On These Wild Trips And My 20s Were The Psychedelic Decade When I Was Embodying Castaneda's Teachings As Much As I Could Particularly In The Realm Of Dreaming And Also Interacting With Other Individuals I Guess Into My 30s As Well In Guatemala I Studied Under A Shaman Studies The Word Apprenticed Under A Shaman In Guatemala Which Is A Genuine Mayan Brotherhood Although He Wasn't A Mayan That Was Much Less Glamorous As You Can Imagine It Was Much More Nitty Gritty Shamanism And I Had A Whole Host Of Experiences And I Would Say I Got Very Close To A Kind Of State Of Awareness That I Thought Was Infinity And Eternity But I Was Also Becoming Quite Deranged Demonstrably Like I Had Violent Psychotic Breaks Where I Won't Go Into Details But You Find Them In Vice Of Kings If Anyone Was Curious So I Saw How In The End How It Was Leading Me Away From Wholeness From A Wholesome Kind Of Existence I Mean Ego Inflation Is A Simple Word For It All Of These Experiences I Was Having That Wouldn't Have Happened Many Of Them Without The Psychedelics Even Though I Was Continuing In The Realm Of Dreaming And Loicit Dreaming It Was All Fueled By The Psychedelics I Think Or A Lot Of It Was Fueled It Was Far More Than I Could Actually Process And The Way That I Was Processing It Was Essentially To Create More And More Of A Spiritualized Or Shamanized Identity So I Ended Up Believing That I Was The One Kind Of The Matrix I Wrote About The Matrix I Mean I Went On A Bender About Ten Years And Like Icarus I Fell Down To Earth And It Was The Best Thing That Could Have Happened And I Don't Really Regret I Regret All The Psychedelics I Regret The Tattooed Because The Damage Is Kind Of Unfixable Really But As Far As A Learning Experience I Think It Was Invaluable Yeah Well That's What The Twenties Are For To Me Is Like Kind Of Reckless Naive Exploration As Long As You Don't Do Lasting Damage For The Rest Of Your Life And Then You Can Extract The Wisdom That You Had From That Exploratory Adventure And Then We Get A Little Older We Get Married And Have Kids And Then It Becomes Really Dangerous To Do Those Kind Of Things Because Other People Depend On You You You You've Built Something Else That You Have To To Be Responsible For So You Can't Go Back So I Endorse Using Your Younger Years For That Exploration So You Can Carry The Knowledge Gain From Those Experiences Forward In A Safe Way I Know A Lot Of Parents Who Are Very Naive Christian People And Then When Their Kids Got Into Drugs They Didn't Know What To Do And They Did A Lot More Damage To The Relationships Because Of Their Naivete And That's Not A Good Thing But You Know I Separate The Psychedelics Out Of It Because Yes You Can Do Too Many Psychedelics We Had This Discussion Last Time I Did Just Enough To Break Materialism And You Did A Whole Lot More Than Me So I Think They Have A Usefulness Almost Everything You Can Think Of Can Be Done Too Much And Then Becomes Harmful Of Course But When You Talk About The Damage All This Does It's Like You Seem Fine Now And You Obviously Overcame Whatever Negative Effects Were There And You Are Better For It As A Human Being Considering You Have This Knowledge Of Even False Roads And You Don't Have To Guess Because You Lived It And Then You Talk About You Wanted To Gain Superpowers And You Say This Ultimately Is Just A Cul-de-sac To Nowhere And You Find Out That None Of It's Real But You Entered Into Archetypal Realms And Saw It's A But You Reached The Thing You Saw Archetypal Realms And Saw Other Worlds That's The Thing So What It Didn't Help Me To Live A Better Life Didn't Make Me A Better Man It Gave You Insights About Reality That Others Don't Have That's Valuable It's A Paradox Because The Main Insights It Gave Me Is They're Not Really Valuable These Insights It's A Paradox It's Like We Live In A World In Which There Aren't Really Good Values Positive Values Are Good Role Models And All The Rest Of It So We Have To Improvise And Find Our Own Way And I Did That To The Hilt I Took It Too Far So There Is Some Value In That In Just Testing Things Out And Finding Your Own Way Of Course One Has To Find One's Own Way But On The Other Hand We Only Have A Few Decades Right So You Could Also Say I Just Squandered Two Decades And Used Up An Awful Lot Of Life Force And Also I Don't Know You See I Mean Perhaps One Of The Difficulties Or Discrepancies Between Our World Views Is I Mean I Know You Acknowledge Malevolent Forces And Stuff Like That But It Doesn't Seem You Take Them Nearly As Serious As I Do Because Well First Point Is Malevolence Forces Can Definitely Disguise Themselves As Benevolent And In Fact It's Not Even Entirely Disguised They Can Definitely Offer Us Things That Seem To Have Value And That's Exactly How Such Forces Would Trick And Trap Us But The Point That I Didn't Finish Making Was Is That If You End Up Making Bargains With Spirits Let's Say Let's Try And Keep It Neutral Discorporate Spirits Where They Could Be Plant Spirits Or They Could Be Ancestral Spirits Or They Could Be Elemental Spirits Whatever But They Exist As I See It And They Do Offer Us Things And We Might Feel That We're Benefiting Enormously If We Start To Trade With Them We Might Gather Insights And Even Cities And Enter The So-called Archetypal Realm But They Can Be Lasting Pacts And At A Certain Point You Have To Pay Right It's Like In The Godfather Right He Says That Some Day May Come And I'm Going To Ask A Favour Of You That Day May Never Come But It May And If You Say No You're Screwed Right You Can't Say No To The Godfather And You Can't Say No To These Entities Because You've Been Coerced And Lured Into A Complicity A Bargain And You've Accepted The Boons That They Given You It's The Jesus Temptation In The Desert Satan Offers Jesus These Things And Jesus Says No And He Says No Not Necessarily Because He Doesn't Want Or Even Maybe He Could Benefit From Some Of Those Things But Because He's Not Going To Put Himself In Bondage To The Satanic Power The Satanic System So That's The Thing That We're Not Looking At Here Is Yeah Because I Still Don't Know You Could Say Well I'm In Good Shape Now Yes But Relatively But I Don't Know What The Full Consequences Are The Full Price Of That Squandered Youth And Those Poor Choices I Won't Know That Probably Until I Die And So I'm Still In The Process Of Repenting If You Like If You Want To Call It That Holding Myself Accountable This Is Why In Your Mind I'm Hard On Other People Because I'm Hard On Myself I Don't Consider It Hard Because I Think It's Not A Good Idea To We Do Need To Be As Aware As Possible Of The Consequences Of Our Actions Because We Are Going To Be Held Accountable So The More We Hold Ourselves Accountable In The Present The Better And The More We Know About The Realities That We're Dealing With The More We Can Hold Ourself Accountable My View Is Simply A Lot Bleeaker Than Yours In This Regard I Would Say Optimistic Than God Fair Enough I Think You Really Don't Have A True Good Sense Of My Overall World View And Perspective But That's Okay This Isn't Really About Me This Is Always About Guests But In Terms Of Land Spirits And Ancestors I've Had This Presented As A Respect Thing Recognizing And Honoring Land Spirits Is Really Just A Way Of A Consciousness Of All Things Wrong With That And This Is Kind Of A Way To Get Ourselves Out Of The Materialist Box The Materialist Box Would Say That Stuff Silliness And Has No Meaning So That's Why We Rape The Land And We Don't Honor The Ancestors Is Because We Let Things Run Amok Because We Think It Means Nothing But If We Acknowledge Nature As Conscious Itself Then This Helps To Find A Justification Of Not Letting People Destroy Everything So I Don't Know Maybe There's Tricksters In The Land I Admit There Could Be But I Just Think That In General It's An Acknowledgement Of The Consciousness Of All Things It's An Animist Perspective That Really Isn't A Problem But Before We Run Out Of Time In The First Hour There's Just So Many Things I Wanted To Hit That We're Just Gonna Have To Fill In The Second Hour With As Much As I Can But This One Is Really Important So To Go Outside The Realm Of Ufology And Occult Research In A Recent Substack You Said My View Is Simple To The Point Of Seeming Simple Minded To Some If A Disseminator Of Dissodence Has A Platform Of More Than 100,000 Followers Or The Equivalent In Terms Of Being Centered In The Alt Media I Generally Don't Waste My Time On Them True I Might Appear On Their Show Like Sean Atwood And I Am Not Saying They Must Be A Shill To Have Such High Numbers Behind Them But At The Very Least They Can't Be Rocking Any Serious Boats Well I Just Do Interviews And I Very Close To That Metric That You Consider Suspect But I'm Totally Willing To Entertain Anything And Especially Let Guests Say Anything Whether I Endorse It Or Not It's Just Something To Think About You Know So What Would Be Rocking A Serious Boat Just So We Can Make The Case That We Did It What Is This Thing That You Think That These People Won't Touch If They're Kind Of Controlled Opposition They'll Go Everywhere But This One Place Say It Say The Thing Because My Platform Is Open Yeah No It's Not That Simple I mean Obviously Holocaust Denial Would Be The Closest You Get To An Actual Subject That Can't Really Go Mainstream With Because You Get Thrown In DL But Even There It's Really Not About The Content It's Not The Quantity It's The Quality It's More Like The Style Than The Content So It's More About The Medium Than The Message Now One Of My Principles Or My Reasoning Is That If Things Are Becoming Popular Then They're Being Promoted Because We're In An Algorithm Based World Now On The Internet Something That Goes Viral We've Got This Idea That It's Spontaneous And Organic But Is It Maybe It Was For A Brief Time But Is It Now Does Things Actually Go Viral Just Because There's A Direct Interface Somehow Between The Disseminator And The Audience And It's The Audience Making It Viral Well No Because In order For Something To Go Viral The Algorithms Have To Pick It Up And So On And So For It's Not We've Got This Intermediary Right The Middleman Or Middle Space So That's One Point That We Just Have To Factor That In And Clearly If You Look At Somebody Like Alex Jones It's Got Nothing To Do With Content Because Alex Jones Can Talk About Anything He Can End Up To Call And People Can Say Well That's Proof That He's For Real But We Can Get Into That If We Have Time Or Why I Don't Think That's Proof Of Anything But Certainly Before That He Was Able To Have A Massive Platform Regardless Of What He Talked About So Clearly In My Interpretation Clearly He Was Not Threatening In Any Serious Way The Agendas Let's Say That He Was Supposedly Exposing The Other Point Of Reference The Main One Is My Own Experience And Maybe Ten Years Ago I Was Still Saying Well Maybe I'm Just Not Good Enough Or Maybe This Or Maybe That But I've Been Banging Away For So Long Now And My Main Thing Has Always Been A Kind Of Personal Integrity To Not Compromise My Own Sense Of What's Actually Honest And True For Myself Not To Cater Right So Over The Years I've Become More And More Aware That That Has Constantly Kept My Audience Base At A Certain I Don't Even Know Who They Are Mostly So Basically It Never Goes Over About 200 That I'm Kind Of Aware Of And Then About 10 Or Best 20 That I Can Interact With Right So That's 2220 Right It's A bit Random But Just Saying That Does Seem To Be In My Own Experience A Direct Correlation Between My Own Approach And Small Numbers And Also That That's Actually The Way That I Want It Even Though I Do Like Everyone I've Got An Ego And I Would Like The Validation Of Big Numbers I Understand More And More That Reaching A Wide Audience It Becomes Harder And Harder To Calibrate What We're Communicating So That We Can Be Sure That We're Being Effective If You See What I Mean If You Imagine A Room With 2000 People You Can Do A Big Performance You Get A Big Round Of Applause You Got No Idea Kind Of How Those People Are Going To Use What You've Actually Given Them Whereas If You're In With 10 People You Can Keep Checking You Can Be Sure You're Not Being Misunderstood And Then You Can Check In Later And See If It's Been Helpful To Them That's The Kind Of I'm Talking About So I've Mixed Two Things Together One Is Personal Integrity And Why It's Good Not To Have A Large Audience So I'd Say To Mesh Them Together The Only Thing That Is A Threat To The System I Think Is Genuine Soul Connections Fair Okay Well A couple Of Thoughts So Medium Not The Message Of Course Like I See Alex Jones First Off Easiest Example In The World To Criticize But I See Alex Jones As Yeah He Could Say Anything And What It Presents To The People Is Like Look At This Guy He's Angry He's Yelling He's Unhinged It Presents An Archetype Of Going Down These Roads Leads To Being That Kind Of Person And You Don't Want To Be That Kind Of Person So Yeah That Has A Role In Society Alex Jones Has Been On The View So Then The View Can Be Like Well We're Fair And Balanced We Cover Everything When We Want The Alternative Take Here's Our Token Conspiracy Theorist Who Goes On Screams And Shouts And Doesn't Present Himself Good At All So I Think Part Of My Success Over The Last Decade Plus Has Been Talking To The Same Kind Of People But Not Embodying A Negative Archetype And I Think Just Not Screaming Over My Guests And All This Kind Of Stuff Has Been A Huge Boon To My Success And I'm Quite Proud Of The Fact That I've Built A Platform That Does Not Do Advertising No Sponsorships For Any Bullshit And I'm Monetized And I'm Quite Successful And I'm Raising A Family And It's All Going Quite Well And Yet Them Help Me Much At All The Best I Can Say Is That I Haven't Really Lost A Lot Of Platforms I Was Demonetized From YouTube Very Very Early And That Was A Blessing Because I Never Relied On YouTube And Never Catered My Content To YouTube Because I Never Was Needing Money From Them So The Best I Can Say Is I Haven't Been De Platformed From Very Many Things But How Do You Measure Word Of Mouth This Is The Issue Is Like How Do You Measure Where Word Of Mouth Ends And The Algorithms And The System Find Something Useful About A Person Because You Said This Sentence At The Very Least They Can't Be Rocking Any Serious Boats So I Trying To Rock Those Boats I Saying What Is The Taboo Thing You Mentioned Holocaust Denial I Done Those Shows And I Willing To Present Anything So I Trying To Break What You're Saying Here By Giving You An Opportunity To Say What Is The Taboo Thing What Is The Bottom Of The Rabbit Hole That Shall Not Be Talk About Because We're Going To Talk About It Or I'm Going To Give You Room To Talk About It And I'm Going To Make You The Platform So That Definitely Is A Way To Extend Your Platform Even Just From An Ordinary Kind Of Profane Angle These Are Popular Public Figures So If You Have Them On Then You Extend Your Reach But In My Framework If You're Enabling Disinformation Agents Then Well You're Not Rocking Any Boats So But This Is Today And That Was Yesterday Yeah You're Having Me On So Maybe Your Numbers Will Go Down Well I Mean I Think I Should Get Some Credit For A Lot Of People Saying I Don't Like This Guy And For The Rating Not Being As Good As Other Shows I Don't Even Cater To My Own Audience Jason I'm Willing To Buck Them Even The People Who Pay My Bills And Keep A Roof Over My Children's Head I'm Willing To Say You Know What What Do You Know I'm Talking To Jason Again Because Fuck It But Do You Really Want To Rock Boats I Mean It's Kind Of Funny That You Quoted That Or I Even Use That Because I Don't Think I'm Particularly Setting Out To Rock Boats So It's Not Necessarily The Standard I'm Just Saying The People Have This Reputation That They're Exposing The Truth But They've Got High Numbers So Clearly Exposing The Truth Isn't A Problem Well To Use Another Term Instead Of Rocking Boats Let's Use The Term Gatekeeper A Lot Of People Would Suggest That There Are Figures In Alternative Media That Are Gatekeepers The Point That You Can Talk About Anything Up To Like A Level Six But That Suggest Subconsciously To There's Nothing Else Worth Discussing I'm Saying I'm Willing To Crank That Up To Eleven Buddy I'm Willing Say Something That's Going To Shock Me If Something Comes To My Mind I Will But My Main Principle Is Keep Flying And Be Spontaneous So What I Have In Mind Is That And This Won't Satisfy You But The Thing That Is Effective Isn't Just Shotgun Spray And Pray Information Dissemination Like That's Not Effective We're Already In Information Overload Post Information Age Where People Are Becoming Deranged By The Information And The Disinformation And The Misinformation So The Thing Is This Context And Coherence So If You Were Making Stuff Coherent Which You Can't I Don't Think You Could Do And I'm Not Saying That You Should Be Doing This Because You're A host Of A Podcast Who Talks To People Well I Do That Too But I Also Write Books So My Goal Is To Make Things Coherent It's Not About Just Well We'll Talk To This Guy And Then We'll Talk To That Guy And It Could Be Different Points Of View And All That No It's Like Actually Making It Coherent In Such A Way That People Can Be Satisfied That They Can Turn Away They Can Turn Away From This Compulsion To Try And Understand The World And Understand Everything Because We Never Will So As I Said It's Not Very Satisfying In The Context Of What You're Asking For Because You're You're Equating Rocking The Boat Or Being Effective With Being Shocking Or Saying Things That Are Forbidden And So On I Mean There Is That Element Right So We Could Talk About Anal Sex For Example If You Really Want To Get Into Something Provocative But You Know I Don't Know That Would Be Very Productive And We're Kind Of In A Post Woke Time Now Anyway Aren't We With Donald Trump 2.0 On The Horizon But There Was A Time Anyway Where It Was Useful To Challenge These Enforced Viewpoints Where You Have To Approve Of Gay Marriage Or Whatever There Was A Time Where It Was Important And Helpful To Challenge That And There Always Will Be But To Me The Point There Isn't That We Need To Push Back Against Propaganda And Ideological Possession But Just We Need To Always Keep Pushing The Envelope So To Speak The Boundaries Of What We Are Comfortable Talking About So That We Don't End Up Consciously Or Unconsciously Self Censoring Like This Is Really Really Important And So That's The Kernel I'm Getting From What You're Saying It Is Good To Go Into These Forbidden Waters But Not For Shock Value And Not Because We're Trying To Be Subversive But Just Because To Demonstrate Anything But Again To Repeat In Context Not Just There Has To Be Some Larger Deeper Context Which Is How Can We Live More Meaningful Lives Yeah Yeah And I Definitely Don't Try To Be A Shock Jock I Mean My Intros Are Kind Of A Parody Of That Culture And Trying To Get People Psyched Up For The Topic At Hand Because It's Usually Something That Is Jarring To Someone Who Is Living Their Life And Let Turn On This Podcast It's Going To Be About Something You Weren't Prepared For Potentially So Let's Grease The Wheels A Little Bit I Think It's Fun But I Meant More In The Sense Of Raw Uncomfortable Truths And The Fact That If You're Skeptical Of My Platform I'm Not A Gatekeeper I'm Very Open To All Information And I Hope You Feel Like You Used That Time To Make Some Solid Points But Since We're Not Limited On Time Let Me Just Throw One More Thing At You I'm Going To Wrap Up A Few Different Things I Had To Say Based On Your Work And We'll Just Stick The Landing Here But When It Comes To Whitley Strever I Think You Said Some Interesting Things In The Plus Member Comment Section Where You Wrote If You Ever Have Whitley Back On THC Ask Him About His Time With The Process Church In 1968 While Working For The Foreign Office In London While Simultaneously Studying At The London School Of Economics And The London Film School The Same Year He Claims The Visitors Drugged Him And Made him Have Sex With One Of Them While He Was Surrounded By Cult Like Figures Somewhere In Barcelona Yes Really And This Is Also The Same Period He Was Meant To Be At The University Of Texas Where He Witnessed The Charles Whitman Shooting In 1966 Whitley Streber Is The Forrest Gump Of MK Ultra To Be Clear When I Say Someone Isn't Trustworthy That Doesn't Necessarily Mean I Think They're A Shill There's A Broad Spectrum And With Whitley Streber For Example He Certainly Seems Sincere But He Also Has The Hallmarks Of A Mind Control Victim Who Is Acting According To His Programming Human Alien Or Both And Then In The Book You Write It's Here That The Alien Abduction Lore Overlaps With That Of The Infamous Intelligence Programs Such As MK Ultra Which Often Entail Or At The Conditioning Via Abuse Aimed At Tapping Into The Psychological Survival Mechanism Of Disassociation By Which The Psyche Summons Daemonic Complexes From The Beyond The Deeper Unconscious To Bring About Some Kind Of Healing Intervention For The Child If So It May Be That Streber Along With Thousands Of Others Similarly Interfered With And Not Necessarily By Government Has Unwittingly Summoned His Own Visitor Phenomenon One Which Is Paradoxically Universal Since The Human Psyche Reacts To Trauma In More Or Less The Same Way Every Time Later On You Sum It Up With In Other Words Are Sexually Traumatized Individuals Sought Out Or Even Created As Spokespeople For The Propagation Of A Mind Based Spirituality Designed To Serve Sociopolitical Agendas Now I Love That And I Had This Hunch In My First Interview With Him I Went Out Of The Way To Try To Get Him To Talk More About This School He Was Selected For As A Young Kid Where He Remembers Torture And Being Put In Cages And Kind Of Glosses Over It I Certainly Think That's Relevant And Related But This Is Where I Finally Started Started To See The Shape Of A Possible Deception Torture Some People As Children And Then Promote Them In The UFO Subculture As Being Visited By Some Type Of Objective External Alien Being Now That Is An Interesting Premise What Would Be The Intention Or Goal Behind This Operation If They're Traumatizing Kids And Then Putting Them Out There To Talk About The Phenomenon They've Generated From Within On Shows Like Mine What Sociopolitical Agenda Does That Serve It Doesn't Seem Immediately Obvious To Me What That Would Accomplish Well Again The Whole Of Prisoner Infinity Is Answering That Question And Not Comprehensive Either In 300 Pages So But One Of The Things I Address Particularly In Part Two Is The Ways In Which And It Is Introduced In Chapter One With The Changing Images Of Man Document This Idea That The Culture And Society And Commerce And The Economy It Needs Novelty It Needs New Concepts New Narratives New Symbols To Be Introduced So That Intersects Or Dovetails With A Secular Religion Which Is Transhumanism And Space Colonization Also Psychedelics A Lot Of New Asian Is Kind Of Secular Even Though It's Paranormal There's Various Strands To This Ball Of Wax And All Of That Can Be A Means To Not Exclusively But Just to Begin With A Means To Renew The Structures Of Society To Give Them New Modes New Products New Narratives New Ideologies New Goals And Specifically Changing Images Of Man It Talks About How We Need This New Kind Of Religion That Will Keep The Western Society Moving Forward And So Space Travel And Then Transhumanism It Doesn't Specify These In Changing Images Of Man There Are These Secular Versions Of Religious Or Spiritual Beliefs So That's Number One So I mean We Can See Maybe I Didn't Underscore It But The Way In Which Just As Something Like Star Trek Made Space Seem Like A Sexy Place To Go To Rather Than Just Very Cold And Full Of Nothing But Rocks Alien Abduction If We Connect That To The Cosmos The Universe Other Planets Even If We're Not Literally Saying They're ETs But Often People Are Saying That Again It Creates This Idea That There's Something Out There That's Calling Us So It Does Dovetail With Transhumanism Space Travel In These Various Ways The UFO Belief Systems Then There's The Paranormal And Psychism Which Also Is Part Of The UFO Cult Thing So That's Going Back To What We Touched On With Super Powers And The Last Thing Is Was Really At The Metaphysical Level Or Perhaps Metaphysical Isn't Quite The Word But The Occult Level If These Are Actual Beings That Are Being Accessed And Harnessed And If We Take Striva Somewhat At His Word Obviously You Can't 100% Then According to Striva Anyway The way In which This Hidden Reality Non-Human Non-Human Beings Can Become More And More Active And Dynamic In Our World Is By Generating Belief In It The Belief Is A Window And Then A Doorway From That World Into This World Which Is Consistent With What I Write About Trauma And That Passage That You Just Read That If There's A Cracking Of The Psyche That Actually Allows Or Claws On Daemonic Beings Or Non-Human Or Whatever The Hell These Beings Are And Brings Them To Our Rescue Then This Can Be Done Collectively Via Strategic Traumatization Of A Number Of Different Individuals Whose Task It Is To Introduce The Traumatic Narratives To A Wider Audience Who Then As In My Own Case May Then Start To Generate Their Own Experiences Dreams Visions Or Have You Believe It's Happening Which Then Could Correspond With Some Kind Of Psychic Ingress Of We Do Not Know What I Find It Very Difficult To Nail This Down Because We Don't Really Necessarily Have The Language But Christians Of Course Would Say It Was Demons Shamanic Orientation Would But Something Anyway And As You Know Part Of My Interpretation Of What's Going On Is The Non-Human Element Behind The Sociopolitical Agendas That Is Serving Those Forces Or Those Intelligences Primarily And Only The Human Elite Is Being Served By Secondarily But Primarily It's To The Advantage Of This Unknown Element So You Could Say They're Generating The Narratives And Finding Human Beings Bellwethers To Deliver The Narrative Man Obviously A lot To Unpack And Stuff For People To Think About And I Don't Want To Keep Going Back And Forth And Extend And Extend But Just To Clarify It Seems Like In The Whitley Streber Case You're Saying That The Entities He Experiences Are Generated From His Inner Self As A Result Of Trauma He Experienced But Then Yet There Are Also Objective Spiritual Hierarchies And Dark Hierarchies Of Nonphysical Beings That Do Enact Their Will Through Society Through The Capstone Cabal And All That Kind Of Stuff So You're Saying Both Exist But Sometimes On An Individual Level These Beings Are Spun Up From Our Inner World We Basically Create Living Nightmares As A Result Of Traumas We've Experienced Yeah It could Be That One Leads To Another Like It Seems To Me It Certainly We Know That You Can Have A Dream That Seems Very Real And You're Projecting Something Out of Your Consciousness And Seeing It As Outside Of Yourself In The Dream While You're Asleep We Imagine At At Sometimes Dreams Are Just Dreams But Then There's Also Lucid Dreaming There's Also Half Awake Half Asleep Hypnagogic As My Experience Is Where You Actually Are Seeing Something That Should Be In A Dream In Your Room There's The Phenomena Of Tulpas Which I Imagine You've Heard About Which Is Supposedly Using Psychic Energy Through Directly Concentrated Attention To Materialize Something There's Occultism Which Is Also About Invoking Talking About Pentagrams On The Floor Invoking Some Entity So That It Will Materialize So It Seems To Me That That's A Spectrum That Could Begin With What We Just Think Of As Ordinary Dreaming That Would End With The Actual Maybe Even The Materialization But Certainly The Actual Arrival And Influence Of Some Objective Entity And There's This In Between Area Which I Used To Call The Imaginal Where This Objective Entity Is Using The Contents Of Our Unconscious And Our Visualizations And What Not As Clothing If You Will Or As Some Sort Of Constituents To Assemble Some Kind Of Appearance Before Us And So That's Not That Different From Saying And It Might Be Synonymous With Or Happened At The Same Time With Actually Using The Energy Of Our Psychic Energy To Materialize Itself And That Itself Is Also Congruent With Streba Saying If We Believe In These Beings They Will Use That Belief As A Means To Become Real Well Well I Think There's Something There Because If I'm Trying To Say Okay Well What Would Be The Agenda In All Of This Of Course You're Christian So You Might Say Any I'm Actually Not A Christian Okay Sorry You're Christian Esque You're Christian Thank you And So You Might Say That Anything That Drives People Towards A Spiritual Paradigm That Is Not That Might Be Negative But That Isn't My Bag But I Might Say What If Streber Is Right With That Last Statement What If These Entities Are Kind Of Birthed From Our Inner World And Take On Their Own Life And So If There Are Demonic Forces And They Want To Increase Their Ranks They Have To Do It Through This Mechanism Of Bringing Forth Like Maybe Our Inner World Can Act As A Portal Between The Imaginal And Something A Little More Real Or Or Whatever And So They Want To Enact More Trauma To Bur These Enemies From Inner Worlds Like Whitley's Yeah It's Like Alien Turning Us About Striva If You Ever Want To Really See Striva's Dark Side You Can Read A Book He Wrote Called 2012 Which He Published Before 2012 In Which He Identifies Himself As Clearly Him But He's A Reptilian Who's Writing Books About Reptilians As a Way To Bring Them Into This World But He Describes The Reptilian Reality As The Most Hideous Evil I I Have Never Read Any Striva So It's Unbelievably Dark And Yet He Himself Is Portraying Himself As An Agent Or A Vessel By Which That Evil Is Coming Into The World So I Don't Think It Can Be Ruled Out And This Is Why I'm Whatever The Word You Want To Use I Don't Want To Mince Words Or Stand Too Much On Ceremony Or Worry About Jumping The Gun Or Being Impolite With Striva Or Kripal Because If They're Involved In Advocating And Endorsing An Agenda That Is Truly Demonic And They Don't Know It Then If I Were Them I Would Want Somebody Like Me To Be Frank To Say Hold On You Need To Look More Closely At This It Didn't Work Of Course But I Tried And As I Said At Some Point Today As Well It Does Seem Irresponsible And I Don't Think You Have To Go All The Demons Right Because That's A bit Of A Schismogenetic Thing I Think Right You've Got These Two Opposing Viewpoints And They Kind Of Support Each Other I Happen To Think The Christian Viewpoint Is A lot Closer To The Truth But I Also Think It's Not Nuance Enough To Be Effective In Causing People Who They Don't Want To Just Become Christian And Say It's All Demons And I Don't Like Right On Well Obviously A lot Of Food For Thought I Appreciate You Sticking Around A Little Extra Long To Fit In Some Of These Other Things I Really Enjoyed This I Don't Know I Hope You're At Least A Little Less Skeptical Of Me Now What Could I Do Better To Be Consider One Tough Question Well First Of I Won't Know I Mean I Enjoyed This But I Usually Enjoy Having Conversations And I Wouldn't Have Them If It Wasn't Possible And Sure I Enjoy Talking To You Of But I Won't Know How Much I Enjoyed It Until I Listen Back Because I Was A bit Surprised Last Time I Wasn't That Relaxed So Hopefully I Been More Relaxed And If We Do Do This Again Hopefully That Will Be The Trajectory We Just Get More And More Relaxed Among Each Other So That Helped Me Relaxed Enough To Answer Your Question No We Haven't Had A Soul Connection Yet Not Really Well They're Very Rare They're Very Hard To Achieve I Can Plug My Men's Group Now And Even There It's Relatively New So I'd Say We're Not Establishing Very Good Deep Soul Connections Yet But We're On The Way To That I'll Take That No Not You And Me The Men's Group My Bad My Bad I'm Thirsty Jason I'm Thirsty Quench My Thirst For A Soul Connection Please Yeah You Should Be Because That's All Makes Life Worth Living But It Is A Tall Order I Think We Need To Be Realistic About I Mean I Understand Your Point Earlier It's Not Like They've Colonized Every Last Grain Of Sand Or Anything They're Not All Powerful But Organized Sexual Abuse Goes Back Thousands Of Years So We've All Been Fucked With Generationally Ancestually It Is Very Hard For Two Bodies To Relax Enough For Their Souls To Come In And Actually Have Congress Besides The Chatter And The Mind Stuff And The Social Signaling All The Stuff That We Can't Help But Do A Soul To Soul Connection Is Very Hard It's Very Hard To Achieve So Don't Feel Bad We Haven't Quite Managed It Yet Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Well Now That My Soul Connection Boner Is Officially Flaccid Give The People Your Links And Do The Promo Thing If They Want To Dig Deeper Into Your Work Yeah Yeah Yeah Well That's How I Feel About It Too Except For The Men's Group Which Is Very Small It's Between Six And Ten People Currently And People Come And Go So That's My Main Thing To Plug That's Currently On Fridays At 6 PM UK Time People Come And Go Sounds Like The OTO Oh That's A Creepy Parallel I Thought I Thought That Was You Do Have To Be A Paid Subscriber I'm Not Doing It Entirely For Free Paid Subscription At Children Of Joke I Think It's Nine Euro A Month I Think It's Well Worth It But Obviously I Would Think That But In Terms Of Content That's An Essay A Week Of About 3,000 Words And A Joke Cast A Week Two And A Half Hours Usually And These Whenever I Get Enough People Which Is Less Cult Like We Just Come And Discuss Ideas And That Is For Both Sexes I Do Prefer Men I'm Definitely Sexist All Time Sexist Because I'm Married Right Why Do I Need To Hang Out With Women I'm Married I Do Love The Company Of Men And It's Not Homo Erotic That's About It Really I Don't Think I've Got Any Books To Plug I Don't Bother Prisoner Infinity That is Of All My Works That's Probably The One I Feel Really Hit The Nail On The Head The Best Maybe 16 Maps Of Hell But That's Twice As Long So I Will Plug Prisoner Infinity There's Audiobook Of That As Well As My Other Books And I Do Recommend That Fair Enough Well Come And Go Is Just A Lowbrow Ejaculation Joke But If You're Not Going To Do The Promotional Dance This Is Going To Have Something To Do With Why The Material Isn't Propagating So I Will Do It For You And I Will Put All The Links Yeah Well No Of Course I Do These Shows Partly For That But I Wasn't Complaining As You Know About The Lack Of Numbers The Only Time I Feel Like Complaining Really Because I Matured In The Last Few Years Is If I Can't Get Enough People Just For An Online Meeting I'm Like Holy Crap Greg I've Been Doing This Since I Was 30 Or Less 25 That's 30 Years And I Can't Gather More Than Six People Together In An Online Space I'm Like That's Legitimate Well I'm The Same Way And I Just Have Found That There Is A Huge Chasm Between What You Can Achieve Numbers Wise In An On Demand Sense Versus A Live Sense So If I Were To Do Something Live I'd Probably Only Have 100 Or So People Show Up Because People's Lives Are Busy And They Can't Be Available Exactly When I Want Them To Be As Opposed To Listening To A Show That's There Whenever They Most People Do Not Interaction Well You're An Uncomfortable Person To Talk To It Could Be Me You're Right I'm Joking I'm Joking I love You I Think This Is A Lot Of Fun I Think The Banter Is Good And Enjoyable I Like Unique Characters And You Have A Lot Of Unique Takes Which I Appreciate This Has Been Fun Maybe You'll Even Respond To Some Comments If You Feel Inclined To Do So Again But Either Way Take Care Of Yourself Keep Fighting The Good Fight And Enjoy Your Dinner All Right Well I'll Try To Brave The Comments But After The Last Experience I I Side Side Of The Fence I Put Myself In Harm's Way For Your Entertainment That's What That Was And A Hell Of A Time To Take Unneeded Abuse Sorry About The Absence But If You Haven't Seen My Social Media Posts Which Why Would You Who Cares I Only Post Such A Thing If There's A Long Absence And I Can't Get To Tell You Information On The Air Much Here But My Mom And The In-laws And My Brother In-law All Had To Evacuate Their Areas And Hang Out Here For A While So You Know Air Mattress In My Office Waiting For Power To Come Back On And Water To Go Down Etc Etc So I Just Haven't Had The Freedom Or The Quiet To Really Get Back In Here Slap A Wrap Up On This Thing Or You Know The Main Symbol Of Contention Which Is In That Logo You Might See Here Or There I Sell T-shirts With It On There But In My Office It's Just Printed On A Pillow I Don't Like To Sell Odd Merch That I Haven't Had A Sample Of So I Got One And It's Sitting On A Storage Cabinet But Regardless I'm Gonna Have Soundwave Productions Who Make Some Of The Long Form THC Clips Use That Section Of The Interview Specifically Because It Is So Visual You'll Be Able To See It On YouTube Or Twitter Within A Week Or So If You're Curious To See Exactly What We're Going Back And Forth About Octopuses And Owls Are Nothing To Fear Pentagrams Maybe But My Understanding Is That Symbol Is Originally Derived From Tracking The Path Of Venus I Could Be Wrong About That I Think It's Right But To Me Just A Pentagram Is Not Evil It's A Symbol That Can Be Used To Maybe Create A Bridge Or A Portal And That Bridge Or Portal Might Go To Something That Is Evil But I Don't Think We Blame The Tunnel Or The Bridge If It Takes Us Somewhere That's A Little Dark It's All Kind Of About The Forces That You're Dealing With But Of Course Jason Is Christian-y So It's In The Bad Box For Him Even Though As He Says He's Engaged With All The Occult Stuff And The Pentagram In A Practical Real World Sense Far More Than I Ever Have Which Is The I When That Loved It And Then Down The Road Someone Mentioned The Upside Down Pentagram And I Kind Of Thought Hmm Well Damn I Guess To Make It Easy On Myself I Would Alter That But It's Too Late To Contact The Guy Now And Ask For Revision That's Just Not How This Sort Of Transaction Works So To Me It's Like Well It Is What It Is Now I'm Resistant To Pressure Anyway It's Just My Nature So I Will Cut Off My Nose Despite My Face On This One But This Merch Is Available At The Higher Side Clothing Dot Com If You Are Brave Enough But That Thing Aside I Think It's Pretty Clear Why I Thought This Would Be Entertaining And Very Different From The Usual Around Here I Also Knew That If We Focused On Agents In Alternative Media I Would Eventually Face Some Criticism I Just Didn't Know It Would Literally Be Right Out Of The Gate But I Loved It I'm A Pretty Open Book I Don't Have Anything To Hide And I'm Just A Guy Doing Interviews I'm Obviously Not Always Right And Maybe I Can Be Too Trusting But I Don't Have Any Bad Intentions Or Sketchy Connections So Who Cares Also I Like The Work Of Many People Who Don't Or Wouldn't Like My Work So I'm Very Used To That No Ego There And Totally Separate From How He Feels About What I Do I Like His Books I Think He's A Pretty Good Writer And He's Just A Different Kind Of Guy I Certainly Came With An Agenda To Win Him Over And I Probably Failed And That's Fine I Think That Would Make It Even Funnier If I Was On The Other Side As A Listener So Many Retractions And Clarifications I Didn't Expect To Be So Defensive But I Just Like To Be Clear And I Don't Mean To Denigrate Or Make Light Of Those Who Have Had Experiences With Satanic Ritual Abuse By Using The Lowest Common Denominator I Even Said For Lack Of A Better Term Sometimes Terms Just Come To Mind But I Stand By The Point That I Can't Cater Everything To The Most Sensitive Among Us This Is What Leads Us Down The Sketchy Road Of Self Censorship We Recently Did A Pretty Aggressive SSRI Psychiatry Show That Is A Great Example Where We Could Have Walked On Eggshells And Tried To Be Super But I Like Raw Truth And I Do Consider All THC That Episode Included To Be In The Spirit Of Tough Love We Face A Lot Of Uncomfortable Information Sometimes It Hits Closer To Home Than Other Times I Get Letters From Trans Letters I Get Emails From Trans Listeners Who Don't Like How We Talk About Trans Issues And I Also Recently Got Messaged By Someone Who Was Chewing Me Out About How Autism Is Talked About On Occasion Which Is Funny Because They Sent Me This Angry Email Right Before The Return Of A Recent Autistic Guest But Hey That The Agenda Is To Turn Us Into Gender Bending Emotionless Anti Social Automaton Certainly Does Come Up So Sure You Can Imagine That Someone Who Is Autistic Or Trans Does Not Like Guests To Talk Like That I Understand And I Even Empathize But I Can't Really Do Much Else That's About As Far As I Can Go With That I Don't Ever Aim To Be Mean Or Denigrating To Regular People Just Trying To Live A Life In This System It's All Done In A Spirit Of Curiosity And Attempts To Understand The World And Get To The Raw Unadulterated Truth Of Things And That Said The Plus Show Was Spicy Too As You Might Imagine We Got Into Jason's Own Highborn Experiences Into A Fabian Aristocratic Family And His Abuse And The Connection To High Strangeness Experiences We Talked About How Differences In My And Jason's Childhoods Probably Inform Our Larger Conspiratorial Perspective Mapping Out The Second Matrix Jason Gave His Deep Thoughts And Comments On His Interactions With Peter Lavenda And Several Other Figures In Our Circle Many Of Which I Like And Have Been Previous Guests And You Know The Deal Here Become A Plus Member For Eight Bucks A Month And Get The Two Hour Version Of The Five Shows A Month Best Deal In Conspiracy Podcasting And In Higher Side News We're Working On A Major Upgrade For Podcast App Users When It Comes To The Plus Feed And I Think I Have To Wait Until Next Show To Really Announce It But If You've Had Trouble Or Hassle Over The Username Password Authentication In Any Of These Different Podcasting Apps Hallelujah We Have Found A Better Way More On That Later But Also If We Can Remember Way Back To The Last Show In The Pre Milton Reality The Rating Of That Last Episode With Mario Garza Of Symbolic Studies And The Whole Polar Solar Thing Clocked In At A 4.8 That Is Excellent We Are Back At It And Yeah I Thought That Was A Really Fun And Thought Provoking Interview So Good Deal Off To The Meetup Calendar Next On Deck The Last One Of October On The 23rd The Natural Law Meetup At The Corner Bakery Cafe In Pasadena And Then November 3rd A New One In Alberta Canada At Atlas Brewing Okay I'll have To Tell The Gramerica Guys About That November 7th Montana Tap House In White Fish Montana November 9th Trails Cafe LA November 13th Athens Ohio At The West End Cider House And November 22nd The Sale Plaza In Tampa I Hope To See You There But You Know The Deal Higher Side Meetups Dot Com To Make Events Make Friends Expand The Network Yada Yada But That Is The Show Good To Be Back Obviously I'll Be Scrambling For The Rest Of The Month Trying To Make Good On My Promise To You But I Suffer Because I Care Enjoy Yourselves Out There Check Out Jason's Books Counterculture Co-opters Conspiracy Community Covert Operatives And Agents Of The Second Matrix You're Fuckin' Hard to Know Who To Trust These Days Maybe There's Just No One A Bridge To Sell Or Some New Craze An Endless Self Promotion Who Is The Architect I See Just Cannot Detect Who's In All This Conspiracy Trapped In Endless Traps Might Say Paranormal To Say Cautious I'm Deeply Annoyed My Head Spins Till I'm Nauseous I Been In Listen To The Words They Use Learn To Read Between The Lines Must Detect Their Hidden Meaning Before They Tap Into Our Minds Trapped In Endless Traps Second Matrix Oh How Clever You Might Say Paranormal To Stay Cautious I'm Deeply Annoyed Till I'm Nauseous Fit In There Prisoners Of Infinity Trapped In Endless Traps Forever We're Prisoners Of Infinity A Second Matrix How Awfully Clever