Jeran Campanella | Flat Earth Defection, The Final Experiment, & The Critics

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Big masters almost surely have a plan. There's clearly maybe something there beyond the realm of man. Serenity now higher side chatters from the sunshine state. I'm Greg Carlwood. And while question everything has always been a common phrase in conspiracy culture, few have had the guts and rebel spirit to truly mean it like the flat earthers, a branch on the conspiracy tree. Most of us didn't even know it was there 10 years ago, but has rocketed its way deep inside the cannon for a proud card carrying conspiracy enthusiast in the modern age for many a spiritual and practical paradigm shift so intense it can't just be incorporated into their wider worldview. It becomes an identity, a soul conspiracy of interest, and for many on both sides of the flat earth debate, a litmus test. Because it's either the most epic deception ever instituted, launched in an effort to inject the desired spiritual atrophy, godlessness, and feelings of meaninglessness into our modern culture, a roundabout way of ceding mass denial of a well-established understanding of intelligent design through a process that required the telling of a new, science-driven story for reality, one of random, directionless chaos for no reason in a universe so vast your insignificance and powerlessness can only be self-evident. Or, as the unconvinced might say, the flat earth movement has been a sophisticated intelligence-derived psyopta fissure, a growing, digitally-networked community of like-minded, rebellious, and distrusting dissidents that were growing increasingly frustrated with the economic enslavement, increased toxicity everywhere, and system-wide exploitation of humanity that was getting genuinely close to demanding better, and not only needed to be disrupted, but also needed to look more ridiculous to those who might have joined their ranks. And here we are, where many on both sides of the earth-shaped debate have become increasingly skeptical of the other side, their motivations, and their priorities, rather than organizing around or focusing on any significant person, policy, company, or poison actually affecting our ability to live free, happy, healthy, and fulfilling lives. So what brought on this movement? Either the puppet master's primary goal is to erase knowledge of a creator and invert his natural order fueled by a deep and ancient disdain for it all, or they don't want their biggest critics to stay unified and focused on practical changes in criminal accountability that might actually be achievable. It really is a question so epic, with implications so deep, that you can walk it through all levels of a conspiratorial flowchart of if-this-then-that, where the truly earth-shaped agnostic among us can actually see both sides. Well, folks, eight years ago, prominent voice in the Flat Earth movement, Jaron Campanella, joined THC to make his case in what many still say was an interview that caused them to consider a paradigm they never thought possible. And he returns now as one of the only people I know to come back to the conventional globe model, a conclusion he's come to after taking a trip to Union Glacier Camp in Antarctica and witnessing the 24-hour visible sun himself, an event incompatible with the Flat Earth model as he sees it. Well, we should be allowed to change our minds when presented with new information and new observations, but what he's experienced is closed-minded, cult-like behavior, doubt, betrayal, anger, rage, and the loss of decades-long friendships. Call me crazy, but I think both sides need to stitch this up if we're ever going to get anywhere. But here he is to talk about the trip, the implications, and the aftermath, the Flat Earth defector, Antarctic adventure, and always honest, sometimes right, Jaron Campanella. Welcome back, my good man. Hey, it's awesome to be here. You're one of my favorites beyond any time, so thank you for that. Wow. Too kind. And thank you for being here. I never thought I'd see this day. This is quite a saga, and I want to make sure we give people all the important context for it. I'm not sure how closely the people listening here have followed these events, but they know the person you were. You were a big Flat Earth guest for me, making a really well-rounded case for the Flat Earth. And you've done that for hundreds and hundreds of hours, year after year, until December of last year, 2024. Someone named Pastor Will Duffy, who has a background in finance of some kind, I understand, and is oddly obsessed with what Flat Earthers believe, created the final experiment and gave an opportunity to a group of four Flat Earthers and four Globe Earthers to go down to the Union Glacier base in Antarctica, 80 degrees south, to experience the 24-hour always visible sun, which is not compatible with the most popular models of Flat Earth. And you came home convinced to change your mind and come back to the globe. Talk to us about this trip coming together and who really organized it. What's the money behind it? What's the story there? I mean, the money is Will Duffy's. He's a pastor who, I guess, had a friend who was on Facebook posting about Flat Earth, and he thought she was joking. And so he kind of jumped in and was kind of clapping back. And then he found out that she's not joking. So he tried to debate her or tried to get her convinced that the Earth was a sphere. And he realized that he didn't even know enough about the model to even be able to debate her. So he started to look into it and kind of came to the conclusion that it was a globe. And then he was just getting tired of watching Flat Earth versus Globe Earth because he says that we didn't get together, kind of like you said in your intro, that there was no coming together. There was no experiments that both sides agreed on. So he started to look for a way or some sort of thing that could convince both sides one way or the other. So then he heard Dave Weiss and a couple other people saying that there's no 24-hour sun in the South. And he saw that the globe-earthers say that there was. So that was basically it. He then did a poll on YouTube. He was going to pay for one flat-earther, one globe-earther. So the poll came out and people voted on Dave Weiss to be the representative from flat-earth, but he declined it. And then I got second place. So when I was asked, the way that I looked at it is that the South had to be a lie. If the Earth is flat, the South can't be the inverse or the opposite of the North. That's what a sphere does. So for 10 years, I've been teaching flat Earth under the assumption or the prerequisite that the South was a lie. So I knew, okay, let me go down there. Let me take a look at the sky down there. Let me look at the South Celestial Pole, see if it actually moves. Just all kinds of questions I had. So I went and then saw that the South is exactly as described. So I had pretty much no choice but to come back and say that we were wrong. Because if the South isn't an expanding plane like you expect it to be, if there is a South Pole, if there is a South Celestial Pole, the sun setting right to left for people in the South rather than we see it in the North go left to right. So pretty cut and dry. The Earth is a sphere. I no longer have any doubts. So, hey, the good thing is I was a truth seeker. I was looking for the truth. It took me 10 freaking years, but I did get to the bottom of it at this point. You'd think my audience would be happy about that, but they're not. Right. That is what I thought the goal was here, too, is to find the ultimate truth. And a lot of people, their flat Earth journey is, hey, I thought this was ridiculous. Then I heard some of the arguments. Then I was just waiting for it to be disproven, and it wasn't disproven, so I became a Flat Earther. Well, you took the journey down there and apparently disproved it. Now, if I was someone attached to the Flat Earth idea, I might say, well, just because you go to one base in Antarctica in the frozen tundra out there, how can you say the whole globe's South is basically what they say it is? You're just at this one base. You have a 360-degree view of what, a square mile or a couple square miles? Tell us more about how you were convinced. It's not just a light in the sky, right? There's other elements to it. You filmed the whole plane ride from Sydney to Santiago, something people say can't work the way flight routes work. Talk to us about some of these other bits of information. Sure. So, yeah, I mean, obviously, like I said, the South needs to be a lie, so we went down there to check it out. And you're right, there is a lot of people who say that, oh, hey, you just saw one item, you were just in one place. But I don't think what people understand is that the globe has been mapped. The Earth has been mapped on a globe. And so if you're going to take somebody to 80 degrees South, 81 degrees West, well, then the sun has to do what it's required to do there. So it doesn't have an option to go somewhere else. It doesn't have an option that we just went to this one place. It's that it had to do what the sun is called for to do on the globe model. And it did exactly that. So it was at its high of 35 degrees in the North and its low of 15 degrees in the South and just circled us for four days. It doesn't set. And so that plus many other things contributed. So also, I think I'd heard this before, but never really saw it. If you think of the flat Earth map that you've seen before, the layout, the AE map, if you kind of picture yourself standing at the bottom of South America, looking West, well, the sun, when it sets, needs to go off to the right, because that's the direction where Australia is. It's over there on the flat Earth map. But the sun sets to the left and it sets hard right, left. And then it barely goes under the horizon for about three or four hours. It sets like 1130 at night, pops up again at four or five. And you're like, wait a second. In that dip, it actually brought light to both Australia and Africa. So then you start thinking that it just doesn't work. There's no way that you can get that to work on a flat Earth. You'll never get it to work. And so originally, my thought was, OK, well, somebody will come up with another map. And then the more I thought about that, I realized there is no other map. That's the only flat Earth map there can ever be, because there are things that we know are physical requirements, right? The Tropic of Capricorn has to be there. That's the southernmost spot that the sun goes. Tropic of Cancer has to be there. That's the northernmost. The equator on the equinox. And the North Pole kind of required. So once you lay that out and then you lay the continents in the order they have to be, it is an AE map. So it'll always be an AE map. It will never not be. And there'll never be another flat map. So the fact that the sun sets right to left for everybody in the south and the sun sets left to right for everybody in the north is pretty blatant right there, because the flat Earth map has one sun doing a, it would be clockwise, clockwise motion above the flat Earth. So what would cause it to set in a different direction for people in the south versus the north? And then also there's other things that go with that, like on the globe, on the equinox, somebody standing on the equator would actually see the sun rise straight up and down. It's like a straight line, right? East to west. And that also doesn't work on a flat Earth because the flat Earth has a circling sun. So what would cause it to all of a sudden it gets to the equator and it's like, well, now I'm not going to circle. I'm going to go straight. But then it circles on both sides, either side. So there's that. I mean, there's the South Celestial Pole, which since it was 24 hours of daylight in Antarctica, didn't see the South Celestial Pole there, but we saw it in Punta Arenas, which is the southernmost city in South America. So once you see that and it's stationary in the sky, it operates just like the North Pole or the North Star. Only the stars go the opposite direction, which would be clockwise there. And so then you know what's below that, right? You can kind of infer from that. We were 600 miles from the pole, but you can't have a South Celestial Pole and there be no South Pole. And if you have a South Pole, that also debunks the flat Earth map because the flat Earth doesn't have a South Pole. So if you want to really confuse the flat Earth or ask them where the South Pole is, they will have to say everywhere because that's the only answer. So it sounds like you maybe kind of had some doubts before you actually took the journey. Is that safe to say? Or were you really 100% on board until this happened? No, I mean, I thought that the trip would be canceled. A couple of these things have come up in the past and they were always fake or they ended up being canceled. So I kind of thought that, but I did know that ultimately if it was real, that, you know, the trip would probably happen and then we'd have to go down and see. And then we also thought maybe we'd go down there and there'd be clouds in the sky. So we'd kind of be clouded over for four days, but we got there and it was beautiful. The first day, the plane lands right there on the ice, unbelievable. We went to Union Glacier. They took us to a secondary camp, which was kind of away from the main camp, just about three miles, not very far. But from there, we were able to set up and do our 24-hour live streams and all that and our 24-hour videos. And so, yeah, it was great. I mean, awesome trip. 35,000 bucks for free. Can't beat that. I'm telling that pastor now, I don't believe in Oceanside property in Hawaii either. So maybe you can send me there. I like that. So I do have questions about Will Duffy. I am not even vested in the argument, but I do find it strange that a person would care so much as to spend 35 grand, maybe just for you. I don't know the total cost. I'm thinking six figures, possibly. Oh, easily. Yeah, okay. A hundred grand of their own money to convince strangers they don't know about the shape of the earth. If you're confident that the flat earth is dumb and those people are dumb, move on. Like, you have to think that he knows that it's not going to convince everybody that people are pretty much dug in to their perspective and something they see through a screen, your trip, is not going to convince them. Is he focused on just convincing the actual four who are literally there? I just think it's a little weird. And of course, flat earthers have gone after his background since this has happened. And it is a little strange. He's been sued in the six figure numbers for fiduciary duties when he was in finance. And now he's a pastor. And I think, huh, if I was trying to dissuade flat earthers away from their position, a pastor is a perfect person to do it because there is a religiosity to the whole argument. So a pastor subconsciously says, hey, you don't have to give up your religion. You just have to give up your physical model. So I find, you know, conspiracy guy, I have to wonder what the hell's going on. What are your thoughts on Will Duffy and why he cares so much? Yeah, I mean, his story checks out as far as why he cares so much as far as with me. And he did seem to, I guess, I wouldn't know what having money is like. So I think that, you know, a lot of people talk about him like as if he's one of us that he's, you know, he's basically struggling to get by. I don't think that that's the case. So, you know, if somebody had, let's just say, and I have no idea if this is a number even close to what, but if you had $10 million, maybe you'd feel a little differently if you decided to, hey, I want to go spend $100,000 on this trip and maybe my name will be put in the paper. Maybe I'll get some sort of accolades for it if I help change the minds of a bunch of flat earthers. And it really has been a kick in the pants to flat earth because so many people have left, right? So I was the first one who came back and just said, hey, the earth doesn't look like it's flat. In fact, it's shown to be a sphere. And then shortly after that, Paul on the plane is somebody who came out and admitted that he also agrees that the earth is not flat. Robbie Davidson, who's the one who put on the first three or four conferences. I know he invited me to Raleigh, North Carolina. He was in charge of that. He also invited me to Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. And also he was in charge of the one in Denver. So he did those three plus more, I think. And he also came out and made a post on Facebook saying, here's my 10 points. This is why I now believe the earth is a sphere. So that ended up being kind of flat earthers looked at that as suspicious because those three are friends and those three were involved in the same YouTube channel where they were selling some cryptocurrency called Axion. So people have pointed fingers at that and said, oh, this is to get them out of financial issue or trouble. And then there's been a lot of other people that have backed out, but not really any major names besides those ones. So yeah, it is definitely weird, everything that's gone on. But Duffy, to me, was always honest. He was good to me. Again, the guy's buying me a $35,000 trip. So that's a good way to get friendly with me if you want to buy me a trip. But he seems like he's on the up and up. And he did kind of turn sinister over the time period. And I kind of gave him a hard time for that. I'm like, man, this guy was a really nice guy at the beginning. And then towards the end, he started to really kind of be like this character, almost like the villain to Flat Earthers. But I have to give him a break because then when I came back and became a Globe Erther, it took me like a month and I was just yelling at people. So it's like he lasted six months at least before he became the villain. I didn't get that far. I was just already pissed off. So yeah, it's been kind of crazy because it is. They are displaying a lot of cult-like activity. They've had to adopt some new sayings that they came up with. One of them is you can't tell the shape of the ground by the lights in the sky, which is just insanity to even say, because what they're doing is they're just outlawing a certain line of evidence. And that's not allowed anywhere else. We don't have lines of evidence that people can just come around and say, oh, we don't look at that. Well, no, we can look at the blood splatter on the wall to get the murder weapon. And we can look at a woman's urine to see if she's pregnant. So you can look other places or things for evidence of another thing. So, you know, we have a measuring stick in the sky and that is the sun. And it's a measuring stick because a measuring thing is just rigid. It has to be the same, right? So a ruler, you can take it around, measure everything and get your inches or whatever. But with the sun, it doesn't change. It's 24 hours. It goes around the earth in 24 hours. It's got its known path. It's been known for thousands of years. So there is no question there. So you can take a map. If I handed you a map, you should be able to look at it and make sure it jives with the sun. If it doesn't, then you don't live where the map says. So there is no jiving the earth with the flat earth map anymore. It doesn't account for anything. So it's pretty simple to me. And that's what's so sad about it is that I feel like now you're like, man, I wish we could just move forward. There's so many conspiracies to look into. There's so many things that we should be putting our focus on. And instead, there's this fight going on, a truth or fight. And that's why I do ultimately think it is some sort of a psyop where it actually steals from the truth movement, because anybody who's educated or works in those departments or works in those sectors, if they hear somebody is a flat earther, they're just going to dismiss them outright and probably rightfully so. And that hurts the truth movement because you might have other people looking into things, 9-11, whatever you want to say, COVID. And if you then say, oh, I'm also a flat earther, then it kind of discounts all your other work. So it's unfortunate, but I get it because a lot of truthers have gotten to the point where they just say, well, they're lying to us about everything. So this is just another thing to add in there. Although I feel better knowing that at least we weren't lied to you about everything. Yes. And that was my problem even seven years ago with the budding flat earth movement is it just seemed like two flat earthers. If I wasn't on board with that, then nothing else mattered. I might as well be a normie shopping at Walmart, watching American Idol at night. And there's no nuance at all. And that was troubling to me. Sure. And I agree. Cult-like behavior. It does take away from all the other real world conspiracies. I've had a lot of guests recently that focus on geopolitics. They think we're a year away from a serious World War III. And yet there's just shows like Globebusters going after the same thing they've talked about for five years. It's like, well, where is the nuance? Where is saving some time for the vast number of false flags, assassinations, coups, globalism, Zionism, all these things that should be talked about? It's a curious thing. I understand the obsession because it is paradigm shifting more so than any other thing. And a lot of us got into conspiracy because we got a little charged from having our mind blown by something. And then that probably goes away until flat earth. And then your mind is truly blown to that next level. And you don't want to go back. But I do want to get a little bit into the aftermath of all this. I don't know, David Weiss. In fact, the last message you and I had on Facebook where we communicate was a couple of years ago. You asked if I would bring on flat earth, Dave and you together. And I had said that I was happy that I did a couple of flat earth shows, but I didn't want it to take over the show. So I didn't want to do that. And I always had fond memories of our interview and fond feelings of you. I probably wouldn't even pay that much attention to the Antarctic trip if you weren't the guy there. That made me more vested in it. And now I want to know about what happened since because it seems like after a decade, you and Dave are no longer friends and even your own community and other flat earth researchers have turned really nasty towards you all because you changed your mind. On one issue that in the grand scheme, is it that serious? Is it that big of a deal? Obviously it is that big of a deal. These people have really gone to levels I never even expected. And that's saying something. Tell us about that. What has happened? So let's just start at the beginning. When I got back, the number one thing was Dave Weiss has been on my shows. He's been a friend for 10 years. And so when I took the decision to make the trip, he got kind of upset and was kind of telling me it's a scam. It's a setup. You're going to go down there. They're going to kill you. They're going to do all these things. And he started calling the pastor a Satanist. And I was like, what are you calling him that for? Where do you? Oh, he's against the truth. He's against the flat earth. So he's a Satanist. I'm like, well, that doesn't make you a Satanist. He's not a real pastor. He doesn't have a real church. I'm like, no, people have gone there. You can go to his church. He's real. So we go down there. And then when we come back, I have not talked to Dave. So since then, he has not called me. He's not reached out. And when I got back, I was hearing him. At first, he was trying to do some debunking because there was a lot of people who claimed that there was green screens or claimed that it was fake. And so Dave was kind of helping to quiet some of those nonsense ideas. But then it got to the point where I think he realized what it ultimately meant. And so he switched his tune to they faked the sun and I just happened to buy it. Austin Witsitt and I are too dumb to realize what the sun looks like, I guess. And so he started saying it was a plasma laser beam sun. But, you know, we did things when we were down. Eric, I took a magnifying glass and burned paper when the sun was in the north and when it was in the south to kind of make sure people knew it was the sun. We took sunspot observations of the sun at all times. We have a 24-hour time lapse of that. And it matches perfectly with the sunspots taken from the United States, except for these are flipped upside down. So lots of things like that. But yeah, the community really went sour because they all and I get this, right? So I think that I've come across as a pretty honest guy the whole time. And I think people look at me that way. So when I come back and make a flip after 10 years, this just threw them into a tailspin. And they basically came to the conclusion that I must have joined the cabal. I must have been paid off. I must be purchased or something like that. So that's kind of their line of thinking. And then from there, it just became some nonsense. I mean, you had Mark Sargent. I'm sure you know who he is, the guy who made Flat Earth Clues. He started making accusations that these three that left shortly after me, that they're involved in some sort of SEC violation and that they're getting paid off. And then he said Patricia Steer got given a car in exchange for her lying about the flat earth. They've just been making these blanket accusations. And you really see it for what it is when you're on the outside looking in. You're like, this is cope if there ever was some. And again, like you were saying, one thing that I look at is what have we accomplished in 10 years? You have to bring something to the world or else you're just spinning your wheels. You're running on a hamster wheel. And then after 10 years, you get off and you're like tired. And you look around, you're like, shit, I ain't go anywhere. I'm still standing here. So in order for the flat earth to ever become the de facto belief, it has to better explain the world than the globe. And now with the South being exactly what the globe calls for, there is no way that it will ever happen. So that's ultimately what it comes down to. And I now understand a little things a little bit better. You know, water finding its level, why we don't see curve, why we don't measure curve. I mean, those things are just, they kind of took that block in my head getting kicked out, which happened when I made the observations. And then everything else just kind of started to fit. I understood the sun all of a sudden. And I get it now. I get it. You know, like a thousand mile per hour spin. You ever see people talk about that all the time. But it goes around once a day. And that's not spinning fast at all. That's very, very, very slow. In fact, if you were to watch the earth spin from space, you wouldn't even be able to tell it was spinning. You'd have to really watch it because it has to only go around once in a day. So that's pretty slow. I mean, think of a merry-go-round or something that goes around once a day. That's barely moving. So, you know, we all joke about, oh, it's a thousand miles per hour. And that seems outrageous. But it's not really that outrageous when you understand that. And I'm still in the camp where, you know, water does find its level. And I think people get confused on that. But no matter where you're at on the earth is level. It is flat. It's just, if you zoom out, it is a sphere. And people have a hard time. I think because we think of balls. We think of a bowling ball, basketball, beach ball, volleyball. So those items are smaller than us. And they look like they've got a certain amount of curve. We can't even fathom what the size of the earth would be. But it's so big that we don't actually experience curve, which I think settles a lot of the questions that I had about the globe earth. Like, how do they build bridges? How do they build canals? Well, the answer is you just build them. I don't even think you need to take into account the curvature of the earth ever. One number I keep throwing out there for 660 feet, which is two football fields, right? End to end with end zones. There's only one eighth inch of curve. And if you got past those two football fields and went to the next two, there'd be one eighth inch of curve. And if you went to the next two, one eighth inch of curve. It's always the same. So you would basically come back to where you started after building a couple hundred thousand football fields. But that's why we don't experience curve. And that's why water finds its level. That's why we use a level in a building. So I mean, imagine if we had a 660 foot long level. So two football fields, which doesn't exist, but let's say we did. Even that, when put on the ground on a sphere earth, would show level because there's only an eighth inch of curve. We don't even have the tools to detect that. So I started to understand some of these things and realized that the flat earth is just really settling on your senses. We don't feel like we're spinning. Okay, we're not spinning. We don't feel like we're flying through space. Okay, we're not flying through space. So a lot of those things are very attractive, but they run out when it comes to matching reality. You can't explain the sun at all from a flat earth, any sunrise, sunset times, not any eclipses, all the things that come with the globe that explains. So I just got to the point where I said, oh, the flat earth will never go up against the globe. It'll never defeat it in any way. Yeah, yeah. It can be difficult because of the scale and the orientation to work all these things out. And my reservations, when people have said to me, what's holding you back from committing, it really always has been the sun and moon. It's just like, it's not really so much about the arguments on the ground and what it looks like. It really is like, well, then what is that in the sky? Because in the conventional model, there is an explanation. I don't know if it's right, but it is a explanation that checks out to me, maybe because I've been indoctrinated since preschool, but regardless, it makes sense. So I'm actually kind of weird. Now I look at that and I kind of think to myself, well, maybe it's a good thing. As crazy as that sounds, it's because it's so counterintuitive, but it's already been figured out. It's already been mapped. It's already been solidified. It's just a bunch of people that don't quite get it that started to have another idea. And the AE map does present a nice option. You look at it, it does explain some flight routes a lot better, right? So a lot of people who have flown, say, New York to London or something will always ask, well, why did I go up by Greenland? You know, what was I doing up there? Which that is the great circle route. But if you put that on an AE map, a flat earth map, it's a straight line. So it's very easy to convince people, no, you're just flying this straight line. You're not flying this crazy arc over the globe. And the UN flag. I've always liked the UN flag argument because where I try to find common ground with the flat earthers is to say, you know, look, I appreciate the punk rock spirit of every couple of years. I find a new thing you've lied to me about. Well, fuck you. I'm going all the way to the top and everything below. There's no way you can lie to me now because I believe the exact inverse of everything you've ever taught me because fuck you. I actually appreciate that spirit. I can find common ground. I tried to, you know, it takes two to tango. They can't find common ground with me, but I definitely appreciate that attitude. Yeah. And those are my people too, right? I mean, that's, uh, I went and spoke down in LA at a skeptic camp. They wanted me to come speak about the trip. And I went down there and I met this girl after who was asking me if I wanted to smoke and this and that. I was like, yeah, we'll hang out after. Then she started going into this thing about how she was almost in a cult because she almost believed that there was a trans agenda and she almost believed that Trump was a good guy. And I was like, oh man. And then she started calling me that night. I just didn't answer because it's like, these are not my people. So the things I've seen written and said about you online are brutal, completely uncalled for, for something so arbitrary as a personal feeling about the earth shape, even losing friends over that is sad to me. But I think the reason so many people are angry and having such an emotional reaction is because you spent 10 years making every pro flat earth argument there is looking at experiments, elaborating in depth on why the flat earth model makes more sense. And then one event, one new data point, essentially, you know, you just kind of laid out how it's more than one thing. How's you doing a complete one 80? I think people would be far less reactionary if you said something like, hmm, the 24 hour sun was not what I expected to see. I need to revisit this and see how it all fits together because aren't there still a ton of pro flat earth arguments that would be irrelevant to the sun? Not to quote Eric Dubé, but yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things like pilots never angling their planes downward water, finding its level. As you mentioned, time-lapse photography of the stars has always been interesting to me and curious seeing things across distances that should be under curvature, never seen curvature without a curved lens. And my favorite zooming in on ships that have crossed the horizon point and seeing that they are still visible. That's a head scratcher. It's okay to have an event and new data shake your confidence. But I think it's the full one 80, the either or flip that is making people so angry with you. Well, that's multiple things, right? So one of the things was that my plan was when I was coming back was, okay, I'm going to go back to the drawing board. We're going to have to relook at things again. And what happened instead is everybody was calling it fake. Half the group was calling it fake. The other half of the group was saying it doesn't matter. And it became very clear to me that we no longer have the people in the movement that actually want to do the work. They now think that they're so sure that the earth's flat that they can just make up excuses for anything that comes and goes against your worldview. Well, I saw that as a problem. That's a cult. If everything that comes from outside your worldview is just declined and said it doesn't exist or it's fake or doesn't matter, well, then you'll always be stuck in that belief regardless of your actual merit. So one of the things was when I got back, I started hearing that every flat map predicted a 24-hour sun. And this guy, Steven Alonzo, that has his own school, flatter school or something, started saying that. And then I started hearing other people say it and they said it's a matter of fact. And I'm like, that's just BS. There is no flat map that calls for a 24-hour sun. So where are you getting every flat map calls for it? Well, these are just lies that are told by people who at this point, I think know what's going on. I think that they know that they've got this audience kind of where they want them. So now the grifters are pouring in. Now some of these guys that just don't seem to be honest to me. And then you had like Eric DeBay, right? Eric DeBay, who has a book, 200 Proofs. And in that book, it says that the 24-hour sun doesn't happen in the South. So when we said we were going down there, the very first thing he did was put out a video saying it doesn't matter if the sun does circle down there because Lady Blount in 1905 or something said that they acknowledged, the Zetetics acknowledged that there's a 24-hour sun. But then she says in the next sentence, but we have no way of explaining it. So the same thing is true 120 years later. There's no way of explaining it. And so it doesn't matter if she said it. And then if she said it and he knew that, why did he put it in his 200 proofs? Because now it's not a proof anymore since it's obviously the opposite. So then when we got back, he made a video saying that we faked it inside of the Amazon studio. So these guys are just, at this point, they'll make up anything. And then the community itself, because they're so gung-ho, I don't know if you've seen these guys on Facebook and stuff. They're just, they're rude. They're like children. I keep describing it as a, my metaphor for it is it's like you're at a bowling alley and there's a professional bowling team bowling on two lanes and they're throwing 230s and 240s and just nailing it, strikes, spares. And next to them, they put a bunch of snot-nosed kids that have bumpers up and they're yelling and they're screaming and they're telling the bowlers, the professional bowlers, you guys suck. And they're like, what? You're bowling sevens and fours. And they're like, yeah, but you know, you guys suck and we do it better than you. And they're like, you know, you certainly don't. And then there's even some guys on their team that are like, we don't have lanes. We don't have balls. We don't throw. We just know we're better than you because that's what Flat Earth is now. At this point, they actually say, we don't have a map. We don't have a model. We make no claims. But then you don't do science. Go home. Because you can't come into a scientific conversation with no claim, no map, no model. That's the point of science is to make claims and then back them up with evidence. And whichever one best fits the observations is probably the truth. So Flat Earth has gotten away from that. Well, I agree with you on one hand. On another hand, it's been a common thing for me to have to point out that just because I can show a lie doesn't mean I have to explain the truth. Like 9-11 is a great example. How did those buildings fall? Just because I can't explain it to a T doesn't mean that what you were told was the truth. It doesn't mean it was planes. Was it nanothermite? Was it Judy Wood's, you know, directed energy weapons? I don't know, but I know you were lied to on that day. That's what's important. So, you know, just because the Flat Earthers don't have a model doesn't mean Eric Dubé can't write a book, 200 proofs and point out, hey, all these things you take for granted about your conventional model, these things don't add up. Now, what is the real model? That's a whole nother question. That's not for me to say. But let me just throw this out. So it sounds like people's behavior is shitty. The most predictable thing ever is that you are going to get shit for flipping on this. But people's shitty behavior is totally separate from the objective facts and the objective argument and trying to figure out what this thing is. And it sounds like, and I understand being hurt or being pissed off from these reactions, but is there any part of you that thinks maybe that you've gone totally the other direction out of spite, out of just anger at the reaction you got, that you're now like, you know what? Fuck you guys. You know, you're now in fuck you mode. You're just kind of like, you know what? Look at you, changed your logo, you know, with the big X over it. That's kind of a bit trolly, as you know, like you could have made it something else. Yeah, I definitely went there. And I think that the plan was to kind of come back and, you know, figure it out together to kind of go back to the drawing board. And then, you know, I kind of felt like it was a sphere coming back on the trip, from the trip. But yeah, to get back and see the people that I was coming back to who accused us of faking everything, it's all fake footage. I mean, and that's just garbage because what that showed me is that there'll never be an observation that somebody makes again that will cause Flatter to realize, oh, we have to fix something. No, not if you just dismiss everything outright. And they really just say, no, we'll move on. So while you don't have to provide, you know, if you point out a lie, but if you point out a lie and it's shown to not be a lie, then you got a problem, right? So you can't just claim something's a lie. For instance, if we're talking about the sun, the globe earth describes the sun perfectly. Every sunrise, every sunset, every angle. The flat earth doesn't do any of that. It can't predict one. So it's not okay to just say, well, we still think the earth's flat. Okay, well, you have to explain something. How about the sun? How about the moon? How about, nope, can't explain any of those. So it's a flip because to me, I thought everybody knew this, but I guess I'm finding out they didn't. The south has to be a lie. The flat earth cannot be true if the south is the inversion or the opposite of the north. It just can't. That's not part of it. And then when you start looking at other things like, you know, you can look at the distance between longitude lines. So say one degree of longitude. If you go down to just Australia and measure one degree of longitude, you know, southern Australia would be about 45 miles. If you draw out the flat earth map and show that same spot, then take the circumference of that circle divided by 360, it comes out to like 160. So we just know that the areas that say 45 miles in Australia are not 160. That's four times as far. That would be impossible for them to hide. Somebody would get in their car to drive an hour to meet their friend. They'd get there four hours later. Somebody, they'd be a little bit questioning that. So we've got a clear cut shape of the earth. And while I agree with a lot of the flattered, like you said, so you're talking about the evidence that we found. Well, if you go to a murder scene and there's three pairs of shoes, they're all evidence, right? It's all evidence. And two of them are going to lead you in the wrong direction. And one of them is going to lead you to the true killer. So the same thing is true about what we observe on earth, that it's all evidence. So when you say we see too far, that's evidence, right? But the globe earth has an answer for it, which makes sense. Do we see too far? Because geometrically there's no atmosphere. So you're just drawing lines on a graph paper or whatever on a plot and say, hey, we can only see this far, but you add an atmosphere and anybody knows that that's like a magnifying glass. It does actually magnify the distant items that we see. We can't really tell we're always in it. But when you are looking geometrically, we can see further than the geometry of the earth calls for. And then there's stuff like refraction that I used to have questions about, but we've actually seen it now into play where you can hide a little thumbtack behind a globe and by putting like a piece of lens in front of or anything, it'll bring it right back up from behind the globe. So that explains why we see too far. It's just the items that are behind the curve are bent up slightly. That light is curving to your eye, which kind of allows you to see further than you should. Water finds its level. We talked about that, right, that it is always level no matter where you're at. The water is level. So all the flat earth arguments are now gone. They don't have one that is even worth talking about, which is sad, but it's the truth. And so I want people to get that across. And I just realized now that they will. I mean, yesterday went so far as that now it's gone to revenge porn as of yesterday. So these guys will stop at nothing. They're going to continue to attack me simply because they can't have me being a former flat earth or speaking out against the flat earth. But I've said from day one that I would always be honest, like you said, you know, always honest, sometimes right. For 10 years, I was wrong about that particular subject, but it's still, we were bringing up some good points. These things were true. I mean, there's nothing that's a lie. We see too far. Okay, great. Like you said, pulling boats back. That kind of exposes one part of it, right? That kind of tells us that the idea of, oh, they knew this in year negative 200 BC, because we know that can't be true. Cause they said one of the ways they knew that is boats disappearing bottom up. But now when we have cameras, we can actually zoom in, bring some of those back. So that means that they wouldn't have been able to do that back then. So they would have just seen boats disappear with their eyes and said, there's curved. The boat went over it. Now we look at it and we're like, no, it's actually not going away for a lot further than that. But if you keep your eyes on a boat, you can't pull it back forever. It'll eventually go over the horizon and it will disappear bottom up. So it's one of those things where I don't think it's out of spite. That has made me almost like move faster in that direction. Obviously to just say, okay, that's it. I, you know, there's no, and it took me getting to the point where I just said, the earth will never be flat. I mean, I'm a hundred percent sure it'll never be flat because there's no way you can make up for the deficiencies like the South pole. When we are down South, I mean, if everybody's looking at the South pole, meaning let's say South Africa, South America, Australia, they're all facing each other. If they walk towards the South pole, the lowest part of the sun, they'll all meet in the same spot. That's the same as the North. So that can't happen on a flat earth. And a flat earth, you're actually walking away from each other in opposite directions. And people have tried to explain that. They just can't because what it creates is a paradox. If the earth is mapped everywhere and you can call any friend you have, whether it's in China, whether it's in Bangladesh, whether it's in Africa, and everybody will admit that the sunrise sunset times are correct in their location and that it matches the globe earth. So it'd have to be at somewhere down South, South of 80, that it falls apart and it's no longer a sphere. Well, that doesn't even make sense. Then it becomes a paradox. So I'm all for changing my mind too. That's the thing. I tell flat earths all the time. I wanted the earth to be flat, right? Didn't want it to be globe. I wanted it to be flat. So if you can find the evidence that shows that I'll be back there in a heartbeat. But I also realize, and it's a lot of the characters that are out there now, they've gone as far as to now steal from the globe. Let me give you an example. So there's this guy, Walter Bislin, who made this model of the earth and then he made it flat and did it to show the impossibilities of what we see in reality. So if you put like a little dome above a person, say over in South America, well, when the sun gets around Australia, it's also in their dome. So the reason that flat earth has adopted that is because basically now you have to have two sons. You have two sons. One's a, what they call a parent's son and the other one's the son that we actually, well, they're both seen. So that's the thing. So if you're a flat earther now, you have to believe in two sons and it just so happens that one of them is exactly where the globe predicts. So that's kind of embarrassing. That's, I mean, so you just added a second son to make up for the fact that you believe in a flat earth and put it where it needs to be. Yeah, I get what you're saying. And you know, there are videos out there of people seeing two sons and you mentioned the magnifying glass. If there is a dome, maybe there is some kind of reflection type of thing that could be seen. Really, I just think this either or argument, it might be silly because you have to think what is life actually? Maybe this is a paradoxical realm for the creator to have fractalized experience in a physical place that shouldn't even be thought of in a materialist context to where every aspect needs to be broken down. Even if five of Eric DeBay's 200 proofs have some merit, that's a problem. And vice versa for the globe earthers. Like, I mean, and the flat earthers too. It's just, it's a little difficult. It's a little difficult to get wrapped up in the either or argument when maybe the reality is that I don't like to use hologram. I don't like to use terms like simulation, but maybe this is God's sandbox for physical experience and we're hyperanalyzing it as if it's something objectively solid and real. And it just isn't. Maybe. Yeah, maybe. I look at it differently. I do think that you have to jive with observations, whatever we decide on. Now, it doesn't mean that it has to, when you say either or, is it a false dichotomy? Well, the earth is either flat or it's a sphere. There is really no other option, at least that I've ever seen. I mean, nobody's ever come forward and said, well, maybe it's this reverse saddle inside because it has to match observations. And the only thing that comes close is the flat earth or the globe earth. Both of them are pretty close, but the flat earth falls apart when you get south of the equator. It really just has no way of being correct anymore. And again, if we went down there and saw the sunset and we saw that the south was not working as it's described, then the go-to model would be the flat earth. And that would be what I would expect to see there. But everything else just leans towards, and again, like you said, all these other 200 proofs, a lot of his proofs are true on the globe earth, right? So the idea of we measure flat below our feet, that's the globe earth's claim, or water finds its levels. The globe earth claims that as well. We see too far. The globe earth claims that. So a lot of the things that I used to think were flat earth evidence are actually globe. That's what the globe predicts. And it just so happens that we can steal it because the earth is so big that it looks flat. Right. But the conventional model also does tell us that our eyes and the composition of our physicality are all twisted up. Like, isn't what we see supposed to be backwards and flipped and then our eyes self-corrected? And like, there's a lot of weird stuff. So like, even our senses can't necessarily be trusted. I don't know, but I did want to ask you this because I don't want to get caught up in like the debate of flat earth one-on-one because I'm really not even the guy to do it. And there's so many hours of content out there, but I guess when it comes to what has happened, do you think that you would be receptive to the conclusions if you weren't physically there? Or would you be acting like a lot of the other people are acting towards you? Well, I mean, it's hard to say. I mean, I would like to believe that I wouldn't be acting like them, but I also recognize that I might. The only difference is, is that if anybody else did what we did, the amount of cameras, the amount of footage, for instance, I went live the 11th from Punta Arenas, the 12th from Punta Arenas, the 13th, the 14th from Antarctica, 15, 16, 17. So every day that I was down there, I went live. That's pretty hard to, we can't fake that. I actually said the scores of football games that were on Thursday night when we got there to prove that it was there. When we said we interacted with the chat, proving that it was live. So I would like to think that if it was other people that went there, that I would certainly not just dismiss it outright and not go by the things that they went by. I mean, they were saying things like, oh, there's no footprints in the snow, but there's no snow there. They were very confused about that. You couldn't see our breath. So people said it was in a studio, but then you can just look up one time on Google. Why don't I see my breath in Antarctica? Well, it's because it's got a humidity of 0.01%. It's completely dry. It's a desert. And so people are, I think, confused about what Antarctica actually is. They would show images of a mountain and say, look at the mountain hasn't changed in three years. Well, that's true because the mountain, it doesn't snow there. So people don't realize that they think it snows all the time in Antarctica. It doesn't. It's just never gets above 32 degrees. So it never melts. It just keeps accumulating ice. So to me, I don't think that, well, I know that flat earth will never be correct just based off the people involved, really. Back when you go back to Rob Skiba being there and Bob Nodell from Globusters, a lot of these guys were into the research, the science end of it. Today, we don't have people like that anymore. There's just people who do live streams. There's people who make fun of Globers who basically it's like a big echo chamber. They never provide anything. There's even people that have started branching off into people who think the earth is rising up and I just see it as a huge distraction and something that will never come to fruition. There'll never be a day where we wake up and the earth be flat. It just will never happen because, again, the sunrise, sunset times, I don't know if you know this, but if you went to December 21st, let's say, that's when the south would be having its 24-hour sun. So if you put your marker on a globe at the south pole, it would be 24 hours of daylight. As you move it up to the north pole, it just reduces in perfect unison, 23, 22, 21, 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, all the way to you get to zero. And then when it's June 21st, it's the opposite. It starts at 24 hours at the north pole and you drag that bar down and the daylight hours go perfectly down to zero at the south pole. So that's because the earth is symmetrical, right? It's the same in the north as it is at the south. Just six months later, everything's flipped. We have a north pole sun that if you stood at the north pole, it goes around from your left hand to your right hand, right? No matter which direction you're looking, if you're at the north pole, the sun goes left to right. In the south pole, same thing. The sun goes the opposite direction, right to left. That right there cannot happen on a flat earth because the sun would have to change directions in the sky. How does it go right for these people? And then all of a sudden, now it's the southern summer, so now I'm going to go left. Well, that doesn't work because if it went left, then we would see it in the north set right to left, but we actually see it stay left to right. So to me, it's clear. And I thought that when we came back telling people, hey, the south is what? Is told to us. Everything jives exactly where it's at. You know, I don't know if you know this, but if you go 69 miles and stay on a longitude line, north or south, every 69 miles, then the stars, the north star would drop by one degree, right? And if you take that 69 miles times 360, it's the circumference of the earth. So you could call a friend and say, hey, do me a favor, walk north 69 miles and tell me how much the north star reduces or actually would go higher in the sky. And they'll say one degree. So everybody in the earth can do that. And we would all come back with one degree, which means the earth is a sphere of circumference 24,000 miles. Right. Well, one of the convincing things to me has always been the time-lapse photography of the north star. And, you know, you're kind of talking adjacent to that now, but when you see all the stars make a perfect circle around it, it's like, okay, that would account for the rotation of the earth, but not the orbit of the earth. Shouldn't those stars look more like a pulled out slinky? Shouldn't they look more like a spiral that's going out or at least an oval because the planet has changed its position over those 24 hours a little bit. So I've always found that to be weird, but I wanted to just ask you this. So you were one of four flat earthers that went on this trip, Lisbeth, Austin Witsit, and someone named Jonathan. I just, I'm getting these from the video you made, the trailer. You didn't say Jonathan's last name and I'm not really in the flat earth community, but how have these other three people handled the trip and what was seen? Where are they at with this? Well, it's kind of caused some issues. I mean, Austin is taking some time off. He's kind of thinking through it, but I think he's still firmly in the flat camp. Lisbeth Acosta, she came back, she was doing her thing, but she got in a car accident and stepped down from Mark Sargent's show recently. So who knows what she's going to come back and do, but she was always on Clubhouse. So she didn't have a real big YouTube following. And then the other guy, Jonathan Mariande is his name. He was just added to the list basically about a month before the trip. And he's a documentary film producer. So he's actually making the documentary of the trip that we did. And I saw the first five minutes of it recently and it is pretty awesome. But I don't know his position yet. I don't know if he's going to come out and say he thinks the earth is a, he's kind of like you more. He's going to be where he's open to everything and doesn't want to pick a side. And then he thinks it's better if you just kind of leave yourself open and it could be either or. And maybe these observations did lean towards this, but I don't think he'll settle real hard on one camp or the other. I really just want, I would love for people just to realize that we were wrong. It's okay. It's actually part of growth is being wrong. That's when you realize that you're closer to being right. And so if you've actually done the 10 years, like I have, you know, everything about the flat earth, you know, what works, what doesn't, what things we shelved. So, you know, just like you talk about the stars going around, but the stars go the opposite direction for the people in the South. And so that becomes kind of questionable because the stars should all be going in the same direction around a flat earth. Same thing is true of in the South, they have circumpolar stars, which are just like in the North. If you look at kind of the big dipper, right, it goes around, doesn't set for anybody. It's everybody sees the entire circle of the big dipper. Well, in the South, they have the same thing. They have circumpolar Southern stars, which means if you watch them for 24 hours, they would just go around in the little spot in the sky that has Sigma Canis. The problem with that is, of course, those stars are on the outer edge of the flat earth. So they have to actually go all the way around the flat earth and come back. Well, how did they just stay in the spot in the sky and circle the hole? So that doesn't work. I mean, it just doesn't. And these things we've known for years and what we've kind of done is just shelve things. Oh, somebody will get to that. Somebody will cover that. Somebody will figure that out. And then I realized nobody's even trying and they just dismiss everything. So if I brought that up to a flat earth, they would just say, it doesn't matter. And be like, well, no, it does matter because it's the star. No, it doesn't matter. So I just got to the point where I said, this will never be what it was because the people are okay with that, which is really sad because, you know, we all got into this because we thought we were being lied to about the shape of the earth. Well, now all these people that are in it are being lied to about the shape of the earth from the side that they joined. And that's pretty ironic, pretty sad because they were, you know, absolutely against indoctrination. But now they're pro indoctrination. As long as it's for the flat earth, they repeat these mantras. You can't tell the shape of the ground by looking at lights in the sky. It's like, well, who made that up? It's just a flat earther who started saying that. And then everybody said, yeah, we'll just pick up on that. But you can, you can actually use the stars in this. And that's how we map everything. That's how they got it. How do you think we got the map of the earth is we use the stars and their GP positions. So it's actually okay. And it's part of getting to the bottom of things, but they want to dismiss it outright. And they just go by saying, well, it looks flat and that's the way they want it. But again, flat earth just doesn't work. And then you've got people who believed in the infinite plane and people who believe that there's a dome and it's just kind of, nobody actually gets anywhere. Nobody's actually figuring it out. Now they want to, now they're like, oh, let's take a flight across Antarctica. I'm like, well, the same thing would happen. No matter what you did at this point, people are just going to say, it doesn't matter. So, I mean, I don't want people to think that I did it out of spite, but it was partially because of what I saw when we got back, right? Being accused of not actually doing it and then being told it doesn't matter. And then having lies made up about you. And then, you know, like Dave Weiss told people that I was getting a house, that I'd be getting a house courtesy of whoever for doing this lie, which is crazy. It's a 10 year friend who just, because you change it and I get it. He has the app. That's where he makes his money. And I'm not saying he's even lying. I'm saying that you can have that feeling in your head, like you're so right, that anything that comes from the outside means it's immediately wrong. And that's where he's at, right? I mean, Christians are like that. Christians, I grew up Christian where I was told if anything comes from outside the Bible, it's from Satan. Well, what that does is it keeps you locked in that belief system because anybody comes out saying, hey, well, this is weird about Christianity or this doesn't work. You immediately say, no, that's Satan. So you're stuck until you actually have the balls to say, I'm going to actually go on my own and not listen to that repeated mantra. So I personally think the flat earth will not be very big at the end of this year. I think it's going to fall away, but not gone completely. Tell you that much. Right. It'll never be gone because people have made their religion about it. Yeah. Too big of a commitment. But it is funny you mentioned his app because I saw your breakdown of how the app data was never handled correctly and that it was prone to a data breach. I believe there was a data breach. But in the video, you showed, hey, here's all the people who have the app and where they live. And you honed in on Robot Polisher, who is someone I've known since kindergarten. Oh, really? And I just was like, holy shit. Yeah. You know who told Robot Polisher about the flat earth? I did. But do you? Yeah. And then he went further than I ever thought anyone would go. But he does great work. I like the guy. He does do great work. I love the dude. But it was just so funny to see you point out that this anonymous figure that I've known forever. Well, luckily I didn't zoom too far in. No, no. It's all good. I hit him up about that. And we both had a little bit of a laugh. As long as nobody drops a bomb of some type, you should be okay. So I know that Eric Dubé, of course, has been coming out against this trip pretty hard. He's been analyzing all the footage like we would analyze the moon landing footage and finding all these little things that he thinks are reasons to be skeptical of this trip. And I just figured I'd bring him on to make his case. Eric, are you there? That'd be awesome. You wouldn't talk to me. Could you imagine? That would have been the greatest show ever. I didn't even fool you. You seem to be... I know the guy. He's not going to talk to me. He doesn't talk to me too much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I will say when I watched his videos, the couple of things that I found to be somewhat convincing is he has a few clips where you're looking at the snow and there's footprints and tracks everywhere, boot prints everywhere. And then a couple of people shuffle their feet and there's nothing. And that's a curious thing. All you can really say is, yeah, I don't fucking know. I was there. And if you see something weird in footage... So one of those things is that that was the early footage that we put up. So it's like in less quality, right? So if you take video down in Antarctica and then you upload it to YouTube, by the time you download it from YouTube, it's been compressed. And what that is, is basically how much change needs to happen in a certain area in order for the encoder to pick it up. So if you are just downloading 720p, then let's say the ice looks similar in color. Well, then the renderer doesn't actually change per each one. Now, that's just one thing. But the other thing is those things are ice. So when you take a... I don't know what the machine is called. I'm from California, so I don't deal with ice or snow, but they have like a rake machine. It's like a compactor that compacts the ice. And then if you're walking around a lot, you'll kick up and it will create snow, which is from the broken ice, right? So at times you would see people walking on the snow part, but then they would walk on the ice part and people would expect to see footprints there. Now, a lot of people who live in the cold laughed at that and said, what? No, you don't leave footprints on compacted ice. So it just seems to be a misunderstanding in most cases. Sometimes I didn't think there was really anything compelling about it. The only thing that I found interesting in a way was that none of the people that worked down there would really agree to be on camera. I would ask them and they would just kind of decline. Now, I get it because we also declined to be part of their promotional material. So I know that if I declined being in their stuff, that maybe they told them, hey, decline being in their stuff. It could be something that simple, or it just could be that they've been misquoted before or taken out of context. And since they're far away from, they wouldn't even get to see it, right? If we came back and started saying some shit, it's not like they would even have a chance to review it. So anyway, I thought that was weird. But besides that, there really wasn't anything particularly surprising about it. And that's the thing. The trip was 100% as proclaimed, as billed. And it was miserable. I mean, it wasn't fun. I would go back, but it wasn't a pleasure trip. So just saying that, yeah, to me, if there was any chance of the flat earth coming back, if there was any way that it could be explained, I would still be right there championing it. But there just isn't. Once you understand what the sun does and the fact that it circles you, I mean, if it circles you in Antarctica, it has to bring light to Australia. So Australia is on the other side of the earth, 30,000 miles away. How did the sun get over there? And it's the sun. It's the actual sun. It brings heat and it brings light. So even if you introduce another one, now we have two suns that both bring heat and light and both have the exact same sunspots. I mean, it just doesn't make any sense. We could continue to do this. And I do enjoy it. I just don't want to keep you too long, but I want to make sure we save time here. You know, the way the show is cut, I put the end on both versions of the show. And I think it's important to ask you how you plan to move forward. I know myself having put all my eggs in this conspiracy podcasting basket, it would be super hard to make any sort of radical pivot. If the audience I cultivated was not on board, you have a family that makes it even more difficult. Do you plan to continue on as a streamer or conspiracy content creator in this space going forward or what? I mean, cause once you start making your money this way, or you start, you know, you've put a lot of energy into this, you're not going to throw it away. How are you going to pivot? Yeah. I mean, I've kind of already done that. And I guess it's, and I don't want to try and put myself on a pedestal, but I do think that I put truth before everything else. And that's been known about me forever because I've gone anti-Christian before. Whereas if you're a flat earther, that's your audience, it's Christians. So if I cared about money first, I would definitely be a Christian. I'd be promoting that, but I didn't. So I always had this kind of strange relationship and now it's even more strange. I mean, talk about the biggest loser on YouTube. It'd be me because I'm really just keep damaging my audience. By now it's like, well, I still don't believe in Mars rovers and I still don't believe. So then the science crowd is going to come over to me, but they're going to be like, what? This guy doesn't believe in Mars rovers. He's a douchebag. He's a loser. And the flat earthers are going to say, what? This guy's a sphere. So I kind of lose everybody. Right. Anybody who's a truther, I kind of lose. A man without a country. Yeah. And I don't want to be a globe pusher or a flat earth debunker. And the reason for that is because it's not my job. Like I was teaching flat earth because I thought we were being lied to about the shape of the earth. So once I realized we're not, I don't need to now teach the globe. That's school's job. That's not my job. So I guess by being honest, I hope that there's something that pops out. And if there's not, then I'm gonna have to shut it down and go back to working. Do I want to do that? No, at the same time, the alternative to that really meant to me that I would have to come back and pretend that I believe in the flat earth or pretend that I think it has a viable path going forward. And I don't. There's no way that we could see the observations that we see and the earth be flat. It just doesn't work unless God of this world is a deceiver and wanted us to think a certain way and so made the world look like a sphere, but it's not. And then in that case, you know, I don't really know I can care about that. So he's deceiving us on purpose. Well, then you're going to, you know, if you fall for the deception, oh, well, it's not really a deception. If the earth maps as a sphere, then it should be a sphere. So again, could it be a paradox? Earth, like you said, or some sort of a metaphysical thing? I guess so. But then why make it answerable by a sphere? There's just nothing that the sphere doesn't answer. There's nothing, no observation that we have that we're like, oh, the sphere doesn't answer that. I suppose so. Well, I mean, there are no shortage of deceptions in this world on a true truth seeking quest. So I hope you do find some things because I don't want you to hang up your hat. I mean, you got enough hats hanging behind you. You don't need one more up there. But, you know, thanks for talking to me. I know this. I didn't want this to be like a grilling session, but I did want this to be like I've cultivated my place in the middle. So I think if there's anyone who can navigate this conversation and try to not offend either side, I think I've earned my spot there. Yeah, I think you have. You've always done a good job of that every time I was here. You did play both sides and kind of play devil's advocate. And that's a good thing because if we don't have anybody doing that, then you have people who get stuck in what they believe. And you even made me think about some things today that I have to kind of contemplate. And that's a good thing. It can't be a bad thing. Cheers. Well, no matter the reason, it's tough to have a brigade of people coming at you the way they have. I look forward to seeing what sort of work you do after all this. I hope people might think about how it feels to be on the receiving end of all this hate over something so disconnected from anyone's actual life. There's so many other subjects. We go to Thanksgiving dinner. We go to Christmas morning with our families. We don't make them check every single box of our belief system. So just chill out. Why so serious, I would say. But I hope they back off. I hope people stop taking it so personal what this other person they've never met on the internet believes. But either way, thanks again and take care. Let people know if you want to give them any links or anything like that before we call it in. Sure. Just jerenism.com. J-E-R-A-N-I-S-M.com. There's all the links there. And the channel on YouTube is that. Keep an eye on what's going to be happening because it's definitely just going to be some pivots. And I don't know when the show will be out, but first Thursday of every month, I do a speaker's corner. So you're able to come on my show and jump on and say something to me. So stop on by for that. If you can't make it for the month of April, we'll see you in May. Right on. Awesome, man. Thanks again. Thanks, Greg. Take care. Have a good one. Well, way to insert myself right into the middle of a lot of online drama, huh? I usually try pretty hard to avoid drama, but I did find this whole final experiment saga very interesting. I'm not sure why exactly. There's something about this Will Duffy guy that doesn't sit well with me for one thing. Why care about what flat earthers think so much that you'll spend money on a big trip like this? But Jaren's argument for that is, well, with enough money, the costs of this trip are trivial. Sure, I know how math works, but that's still not enough for me, especially when we're talking about a guy with an investments background. A hundred grand, which is a lowball figure for this trip, is really not a small amount of money. And usually investment class people think in terms of what it can be turned into. It's investment potential. Now that I think about it, maybe in a weird way, that's what this was, an investment where the returns might not be a hundred percent financial or might just be more indirect. But I still find it weird. It's a lot of effort to go through, too. And again, I don't really have a dog in the flat earth fight. It's just curious to me that Jaren's position would change so decisively that all of his previous research would be invalidated by one solar event. It surprises me. The flat earth community is still being way too aggressive. What Jaren thinks or doesn't think should not affect you. And if it enrages you or brings you to need to make threats in public comment sections or at all, then I guess you really need to reassess your priorities. But it is the you're either with us on this or against us entirely attitude that has always turned me off, too. I know it is a big deal for a lot of believers because it brings them to a certain philosophical change about their outlook on the world or an orientation change as to what this all is. Those are big questions and feeling like you've gotten closer to those big answers is going to impact someone's life, no doubt. But I still say once you have found peace with that, it's probably a good idea to return to less epic aspects of our conspiratorially tilted reality that actually could improve our lives and the lives of other people here in this little sandbox. There's no one to hold accountable for the flat earth as opposed to many other conspiratorial things we might talk about. If it serves a purpose for the system, that would be it. But in this interview, a couple of times we mentioned a person who goes by Robot Polisher. He made a bit of a name for himself in flat earth content creation. I personally love the montages he's made of NASA lying and faking zero gravity, that kind of thing. But this is someone I know personally, and I gave him a call to ask about this idea that flat earth content isn't actually censored. A claim that Jaren made somewhere in there, probably in the plus show, I think. But just as I suspected, Robot Polisher said his flat earth content was heavily censored, and he singled out TikTok for that specifically. I actually think he's had two TikTok accounts closed over flat earth content, and if he recalled correctly, he even mentioned that he thought Jaren had talked about how YouTube will take pro flat earth videos out of your viewing history and keep in any flat earth debunking ones that might be there. Now, I don't know if Jaren has said that or not. He's got hours and hours of content. I don't have the clip, but my friend is fairly confident that he heard Jaren say that, as an example of the system not exactly being neutral in what you watch on this subject. My buddy also referenced that Google whistleblower, Zach Voorhees, and the claims that he made. Zach specifically referred to flat earth as a topic they would suppress along with other conspiracies. And he even sent me this MSNBC headline. YouTube announces it will no longer recommend conspiracy videos. YouTube will no longer recommend videos, quote, claiming the earth is flat or making blatantly false claims about historic events like 9-11. So yeah, they do lump flat earth into the basket of topics they don't want free and open conversation about. It's definitely censored. The curiosity is why. Even if it's not true, there's something about it they don't like. Probably just that it casts doubt on their experts in general, but it also brings people back to a creator that this life is a playful creation and this life has meaning because of all that. And like Bill Hicks said, it is just a ride and the people who tell us that, well, we kill those people. So it could be more about those side effects than the actual reality of that belief itself, because it's certainly not for our own benefit that we just need to be protected from inaccurate or harmful ideas. But as me and my buddy got talking, I said, look, if this reality is for fractals of consciousness to have human experience and we come into this experience with amnesia, because otherwise the game can't really even be played. Why not also make the environment itself somewhat curious and mysterious and almost paradoxical? If God, the creator, made it all, and we are all God living out lives to get to know ourselves better and have a wide range of experiences and curiosities, obviously the first few questions we're going to wrestle with would be, how did I get here? Who am I? And where am I? And if you want those questions to be interesting to yourself and lead to thoughtful lines of inquiry, then the earth might turn out to be just like what it seems to be. You might make it difficult to come to conclusions and you might set up the scale of everything to perpetuate the wonder. It all checks out to me. And in our backwards control system, they want you vested in their perspective. So of course there is deception and controlled opposition on pretty much any topic. So we can't take anything at face value, but at a certain point you just have to come to peace with what you think life is and try to live it as best you can in a way that you can be proud of. Are people who are telling Jaren to kill himself or wishing death on his family proud of themselves? Or are they way too locked into an identity that is so fragile that they need Jaren to believe it for their belief to be valid? Hmm, you know, I would just like more people to be able to say, I don't really know. Of course, my robot polisher buddy cited one of his own tweets that a lot of flat earthers agreed with, but he said he thought the final experiment was kind of dumb to begin with. And the real test is to have a team walk across Antarctica or to have two teams come from opposite sides and meet in the middle. If Australia is on one side and South America is on the other, that does a lot more to move the needle than a 24-hour sun. I agree with him. Now they say that crossing Antarctica has been done, although it's funny that the first one you'll read about on Google is Colin O'Brady. And there's a National Geographic article saying that he consistently lies about aspects of his trip and the whole thing is called into question. He definitely didn't cross the middle. And then the other popular person to get credit for going across Antarctica is Borg Austland, a Norwegian special forces guy. It's also very easy to do a Google image search of his routes that he took across. And it's very indirect. When I look at that route and I think about the flat earth map and I think about wanting to go across the middle of Antarctica, I don't know, that's very inconclusive because this guy kind of strategically went across the shortest distance to qualify as crossing it, but not the exact middle. And he went 1,800 miles. And there is a bit of a curve to his path. Could those 1,800 miles been from one point on the ice ring to another? I'm seeing enough here that I can't conclude no. Like I say, it's just a little fuzzy. And that's the thing about this question that I find so curious. I don't say I know, but why is there always some caveat to trying to find what should be pretty straightforward information? Why do they show us one big photo of the earth and then backtrack and say, actually, it's a composite image of a bunch of images put together, we don't really have one image of the full earth. Or the thing about all the high altitude footage or footage from a manned rocket always having curved glass windows or fisheye lenses. It's like, yeah, here's two guys known for crossing Antarctica and neither of them seem to have exactly gone straight across in a straightforward way. It's just weird. It should be a lot easier. But it was nice to talk to Jaren firsthand again after so many years. I know this has to have been really stressful for him, this transition. And let's put out a little message to Dave Weiss. Dave, didn't you have a real, legitimate friendship with Jaren? After so much time, isn't it based on more than just his conclusion about the shape of the earth? If, like me, you thought he was a genuine, truthful person, why not talk to him? Why not hash it out? Why not at least take an open-minded approach to folding in his lived experience? I said I don't think it's absolutely conclusive, but it's also not nothing. If I wrote off people I'd been friends with for a decade over a difference of opinion on something as arbitrary as that, there'd be no one left, especially through the COVID years. So come on, Dave. Be a good friend. Whatever that means to you, be a good friend. You know this is a tough time for him. Have you seen the statistics on male loneliness, Dave? Do you know how much worse it is for dads, Dave? Just holler at your boy, okay? And fix the security on your fucking phone app. Jesus Christ. But hey, regardless of how you feel, dear listener, about the earth-shaped question itself, I hope you found something interesting about this overall situation, the trip, and just the way human nature factors into all of this. But speaking of hoping you can find something useful in a THC interview, let's see if anyone found anything useful or fun about the last show. Patrice Chaplin. Listeners know I have been wanting to get this interview and fascinated with her work for a while now. I can probably guess that it's not as high as I would like. Anytime I interview someone over 75, part of the audience just finds it challenging to listen to. It's a trend I see time and time again. It's also very odd and specific niche subject matter. And maybe we didn't give it enough context up front. I also remember Patrice being a little resistant to answering a few questions, and that is her right, but the audience never reacts well to that. For my guess on this one, I'm going to say a 4.5. And I'm looking it up. And the real number is 4.3. Damn. Ouch, guys. Ouch. Well, who knows exactly why. I don't think there was any one thing based on the feedback I've seen. It's a range of reasons. And I guess you just can't win them all. But I think it's a pretty fascinating and epic story. Clearly not everyone agrees, so I'll let it go. And we'll just see how divisive this one is, too, I guess. But here we go. Moving on to the meetup calendar. April 20th, New York, New York, the standard beer garden. And April 27th, Tarpon Springs, Florida at Sponge City Brewery. Not far from me. It is one I would love to attend, but I'm going to be out of the country that week. My mom, who is 82, a year after the passing of my dad, has never been out of the country. And my wife and I asked her over drinks, where would you want to go? And she said, Monaco. So we said, done. We will take you to Monaco. Not exactly where I would want to go, but if she wants to sit at a slot machine in Monaco with a chinchilla stole on, I'm going to give my mom what she wants in her last chapter of life. So that's what I'm doing on that particular day. And that's all we got in April. Just the two. April is half over, but nothing in May. Hey, hmm. It's a little disappointing. It seems like maybe the calendar is fizzling out. I hate to see that, but it is a resource there for anyone to use. Hiresidemeetups.com. You don't have to be a Plus member. You don't even have to really like THC. If you want to find alternative-minded people near you, just go on there, make an event, pick a local brewery or local business that you'd like to give a little bump to. I call it out on the air. And local listeners will meet you there. It's that easy. I hope we have some more before the next episode comes out. But there we have it. That's the show. If you are a first-hour listener, obviously there's a lot more in hour two. I think that's where we break down the arguments of some of the critics, the Eric Dubé counterpoints, the Scam Tartica documentary, the arguments from Dave Weiss and Marty Leeds in their conversation about all this. Yes, they really think the sun was technologically fabricated. What a world. But lots of interesting back and forths there. I hope you liked it. I tried to play devil's advocate for both sides so that nobody would feel like I was unfair. But hear the whole thing. Become a Plus member. All your wildest dreams will come true. And thanks to the Plus members we got out there. As always, share episodes that you like. Tell your friends about the show. Personal endorsements and recommendations are what makes my world go round. Or something like that. But I'm getting out of here. I've done my part. Your move, Earth-shaped secret keepers, Antarctica trip analysts, and 24-hour sun simulators. Your fucking move. We are in a lot of trouble across every industry. Food, water, and medicine. Computer, tech, and energy. But people aren't paying attention. Not much is getting through. Gains in the information war are getting long overdue. What's left for the big old octopus to get its tentacles around? Sure, it's got a grip on everything. But it's a long way. We need this on. Working their way. But we need to be justice over grace. Thank you.