Mark Gober | An End To Upside Down Everything

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The planet's puppet masters almost surely have a plan There's clearly maybe something there beyond the realm of man And until we've thoroughly tested every last close-chested view I find The more we think we know The less we really do Hi there and hello, Hiresidechatters. Doing what we do from the Sunshine State. I'm Greg Carlwood. And the world today is so full of lies in all areas of life It's actually surprising to see that so many people can still stuff their curiosity down deep enough to never wade outside of the mainstream waters Even accidentally Because an interest in almost anything from consciousness and cosmology to health, energy, and even whatever it is they call aliens can lead one to pull on an intellectual string long enough to see the other end as a Gordian knot of misdirections well-established assumptions, and an institutional academic arrogance that makes a person feel stupid for even entertaining any alternative information at all And when you push through that resistance you often find yourself so far down the rabbit hole there's not much left to do but find yourself a comfortable new home outside of the system that we've been bred to serve And wouldn't you know it, that's exactly what happened to today's guest, Mark Gober Mark was living the good life having made partner at Sherpa Technology Consulting and Investment Group in Silicon Valley after working as an investment banking analyst in New York He has been named one of IAM's Strategy 300 World's Leading Intellectual Property Strategists He graduated magna cum laude from Princeton University where he was elected a captain of Princeton's Division I tennis team to boot But he couldn't leave well enough alone and his curiosity into consciousness led him down a path of writing seven books from 2018 till today An end of upside-down thinking dispelling the myth that the brain produces consciousness and the implications for everyday life which won an IPPY award for best science book of the year and was endorsed by researchers with affiliations at Harvard, Princeton, UVA, and UCSF among others An end to upside-down living reorienting our consciousness to better live and serve the human species An end to upside-down liberty turning traditional political thinking on its head to break free from enslavement An end to upside-down contact UFOs, aliens, and spirits and why their ongoing interaction with human civilization matters An end to the upside-down reset the leftist version of society under the Great Reset and how it can fool caring people into supporting harmful causes An end to upside-down medicine contagion viruses and vaccines and why consciousness is needed for a new paradigm of health and an end to the upside-down cosmos rethinking the Big Bang, heliocentrism, the lights in the sky, and where we live He's an interesting guy who certainly took a crash course in the big conspiracy and has lived to tell the tale The consciousness, curiosity, string-puller, cosmology, questioner and the end-of-upside-down everything educator Mark, welcome to THC Hi Greg, thank you so much for having me on and I appreciate that introduction Yeah, I try, I try It gets pretty wordy, especially with those titles but I appreciate good branding and you really nailed it Seven books in about seven years The end of upside-down branding is really great I actually learned about you first in your interview with Dr. Kelly Brogan because I was interested in her doing a Flat Earth-related episode and then I realized you had reached out to me so you were in my inbox already which made it easy to coordinate and like my pal Alex from Skeptico it seems like your journey down the rabbit hole the crack in the big matrix for you was consciousness and I find that curious obviously you scaled up pretty quickly but talk to us a little bit about the curiosities about consciousness that really sent you down the full-on rabbit hole Yeah, that exploration into consciousness initially which for me began in 2016 was for me the biggest paradigm shift that I've had and at the time I thought it was the only major paradigm shift that I would have I thought I would write that book and then stay in my job in Silicon Valley and when I first started researching back in 2016 I was just researching out of curiosity because at the time I was a hardcore materialist I thought life was random and meaningless and any meaning that we created was just a figment of our imagination just a rationalization to make ourselves feel better and I didn't want to just make myself feel better I wanted the truth and to me the truth was a random and meaningless universe and then I came across podcasts and then books and scientific papers and declassified documents from the CIA suggesting that consciousness is not confined to our brain not confined to the limits of space and time and might even be the fundamental substrate of all reality as Max Planck said in 1931 the Nobel Prize winning physicist I regard consciousness as fundamental I regard matter as derivative from consciousness so that was the big paradigm shift that I was encountering nine years ago now and about a year into that research the summer of 2017 I thought to myself well I'm having such a massive shift in my own life and my own thinking and the way I prioritize things now I would love to share this with more people and maybe if I wrote a book that had a scientific basis because of my background I would be able to reach people that others haven't been able to reach in the past and that was the thinking behind my first book and I wrote the manuscript and reached out to literary agents and the one that I ended up signing with his name is Bill Gladstone of Waterside Productions he's actually the one who came up with the title of the book he said I love the book the title is going to be An End to Upside Down Thinking and then he ended up publishing the book and then the subsequent books which came later I guess he because of his experience in life and in publishing he said well there's going to be more here he used to ask me Mark what's next? and I'd say I don't really know I mean I can't imagine there would be a topic that I would have enough interest in to want to go through the book writing process again but it wasn't until I left my firm at the end of 2019 early 2020 at that time I'd made it to partner I had the first book out and then to Upside Down Thinking and then I had a podcast series called Where Is My Mind it's still available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify it's just eight episodes sort of like an audio docu-series on the same topic near-death experiences psychic phenomena the scientific evidence for those things so I'm sitting there still interested in these sorts of topics what's the nature of reality who are we why are we here and then I was still going into client meetings and for so many years at that time I had kept one foot in the professional door one foot in this more existential metaphysical door and I couldn't maintain that I was feeling a real sense of anxiety in my body when I went into a space that I wasn't quite as passionate about and I made a decision which at the time probably sounded crazy to people around me to leave my firm but not having another job so it wasn't like I was going to a competitor and I didn't really know what I would do next although when I made the decision to leave my firm the idea for book number two came in and then to Upside Down Living which I then wrote pretty quickly thereafter and then everything happened in 2020 which led me to look into politics and medicine and all the other topics you mentioned that is a great summary I was going to ask you why quit when you could really just write books on the side but if your heart's not in it that is something I definitely understand it can become an obsession and then a profession and here we both are now I do find your background to be pretty curious you graduated high in your class from Princeton you worked in banking in New York in a technology investment firm in Silicon Valley I mean this is the pipeline that most conspiracy folks are most skeptical of you look at the major movers and shakers of the world and it's always Princeton, Harvard, Yale these are the people that are like groomed to keep the big machine kind of running this is where kind of all the academic boxes that you challenge in these books are crafted and reinforced with the experts telling the rest of us how it is and what we know about reality how do you look at some of that stuff in retrospect with your new level of awareness? I was pretty brainwashed and I had no idea at the time many of my friends, colleagues, peers who come from that background what I find is that they find it too hard to believe that the experts could be wrong because of the respect for an MD or a PhD or people who have spent a long time in a certain career or academic track they just think Mark what you're doing it can't be true because the experts just couldn't be wrong these people are too smart and what I'm finding is that many people with backgrounds similar to mine aren't necessarily in on the conspiracy so to speak but they are parroting the narrative they've been taught and they haven't challenged the fundamental assumptions so I've been asking myself this very question Greg am I crazy here and what's the mechanism behind these deceptions and I do think there is some intentional deception that must go on at high levels of society but there's also a lot of innocent propagation where people are just continuing to spout out a narrative because they've been told it's true by people they believe to be credible and I don't know what the split is of how many people are purposely propagating the narrative and I think it's metaphysical ultimately I think there are dark forces that people are either tapping into intentionally or unintentionally but there's a lot of just conformity that's responsible for the world we see yes I'm glad you said that because I totally agree and there's no doubt some level of parroting but there also has to be someone they're initially parroting who set this all up to be deceptive because as you've said like when you started you were it's even in the books like a bit of a nihilist a bit of a nothing really matters I'm an insignificant speck in a meaningless universe when I die I die so let's just get the bag and move on and make life comfortable there's nothing greater than myself even me when I was an atheist I would see these films where in the past people die for ideas bigger than themselves and I'm like what a sucker because your life is really all there is and now obviously I've graduated to believe that we go on and there is something about morality that supersedes like how many breaths you get in this round of your life but it is curious right when we're thinking about all these boxes the narratives crafted around all the scientific subject matter all tilt a person's orientation towards nihilism nothing really matters and away from consciousness and this empowerment that you would say that a person like David Icke gives when they say you are a fractal of consciousness having a human experience it's just you can tell there's intention there right because otherwise some of these areas would it wouldn't be so in sync to lead someone to feel insignificant and meaningless like to me I agree with you in the premise of the books which is like that is a bit of the agenda is to just make us feel like that there's an interview that Alex Kirst did on Skeptico Podcast with Mario Beauregard he's a neuroscientist in the field of consciousness but he studies spiritual phenomena and what he said on Alex's show is that he was told by the head of a prominent neurological institute in Canada this woman said to him as long as I'm alive you will never be able to study spiritual phenomena and then he continued and said this is clearly social engineering it's dark versus light and that really hit home for me is that there are forces involved here individuals with a lot of power who have an ability to steer things I've seen this now in many areas but for me interestingly it started in my career I worked in the field of intellectual property in Silicon Valley so I worked with large and small companies that innovated and then protected those innovations with patents and I saw what happened especially to smaller companies who in my view were stolen from by bigger companies and the bigger companies didn't really care and then they just produced products on the basis of those innovations and basically they said sue me and then you get to court and good luck in court interpreting a patent these complex documents where you're reinterpreting the meaning of words in front of a lay jury and I've even seen a judge overturn a jury verdict and you start to wonder what are the forces at play there often the media gets involved where there's a narrative against the small company the small company gets called a patent troll even if it's a legitimate innovator so I saw these patterns first hand and the injustice and I remember even as a nihilist being really worked up about that some of my most my favorite clients were the ones that I thought innovated and were disenfranchised and that dynamic that I saw professionally we see it in academia we see it all over the place yeah and I knew that about your background and I was gonna tell you that I think I got your next book it's the end of upside down energy because there is a long history of people discovering exotic energy zero point energy over unity devices ether based physics these sorts of things you touch on them in some of the books but you know Stanley Meyer he had a car engine that ran on water these things that can run on more abundant energy sources you know there's a big conspiracy that the true motivation behind prohibition was not to keep people from drinking it was to keep people from using alcohol as a fuel because there were alcohol stills on a lot of farms and they'd run their tractors on it and all kinds of stuff and the oil guys were like fuck that we gotta control that it's just interesting with your background in patents and knowing a little bit about that because one of the angles is that the patent system was set up to catch these people when they do create an over unity device or an anti-gravitic craft and they think they're the first one they go and they file the patent and then that sends up a red flag and then they get visited by guys in suits and they either give up the patent to the CIA or they just go missing or they just quit the field but you could definitely write a full book on the implications of the other stuff that you write about like the energy and physics and cosmology that stuff does have industrial applications and those are the things that have been shut down and I think a big part of the ideological conspiracy to get us thinking one way is to keep us from going down those roads that some people have gone down absolutely what I learned in my career is that if you go up against a big industry they have the money and the ability to shut you down and good luck going up against them even in the court system where it's supposed to be objective so I totally agree with you and the more I've researched and I know you have as well we see this everywhere in the world so it sort of makes sense to me that there is a mechanism by which we could be kept in ignorance by a small number of very powerful individuals so if we jump back to the first book or really the first two because they do kind of complement each other I know you get into psi effects and extended states of consciousness and NDEs and the kids who have the memories of past lives and I've also heard you say in previous interviews that you found a lot of parallels between COVID research and consciousness research because COVID obviously is a fresh memory for everybody there wasn't a consensus there was an engineered illusion of consensus through mainstream media but there were a lot of other credible experts who were like I'm looking at this a different way and those voices just weren't heard so when you say there's a parallel in consciousness research talk to us a little bit about that what are some of the big mind blowers that you know when you stumbled across them in these first two books like you know they really kind of changed your life because I think that is less known to people listening that there's the same kind of engineering of consensus when it comes to consciousness studies first I was stunned to learn that there is a large body of peer-reviewed research suggesting that psychic phenomena are real at least statistically speaking I was blown away by that as someone coming from the mainstream and I really trusted the peer-review process I said how could these papers exist and we weren't told about it I remember one of my buddies when I wrote my first book and end upside down thinking the manuscript pre-publication I sent it to a few friends one of them comes from a very mainstream background and he sat me down afterwards and said Mark I'm your friend you cannot publish this book people are going to think you're crazy and I said why explain this to me he said the statistical evidence you're citing here is too good it can't be real if this stuff were real everyone would know about it by now you're being deceived in some way now I'm on the board of the Institute of Noetic Sciences which has been around for over 50 years studying these phenomena 50 years of peer-reviewed research looking into this stuff and having worked with the scientists and I get to see the dynamic in the peer-review process and in my podcast Where's My Mind I interviewed a lot of these scientists there is a real push by the establishment to suppress research that challenges materialism or physicalism the idea that consciousness comes from the brain or more generally that all processes in the world come from matter including consciousness so if you submit a paper to a journal that says that telepathic abilities are real or that the mind can affect physical reality or that people can send their minds out far away in space and time and accurately perceive things or if that the body can know things before they happen i.e. precognition or pre-sentiment things like that they'll say we're just not even going to go there so we're going to reject the paper not because the science is bad but what's happened in recent years is that more and more of these papers have started to slip through so there's a 2018 paper by Dr. Edsel Cardinia from Lund University in Sweden in American Psychologist this is the official peer-reviewed academic journal of the American Psychological Association and there's a recent follow-on paper that came out in 2025 in the International Review of Psychiatry so these are two very prominent journals and he's aggregating the statistical evidence for all these phenomena over many decades and they've approved the papers that blew me away and I saw both the dynamic where many papers were rejected which is why there aren't as many papers as I think we should have but the fact that some have made it through that was mind-blowing to me point number one but then also other phenomena like near-death experiences and the fact that the University of Virginia has been studying this stuff also for over 50 years psychiatrists are saying hmm we can't explain these examples of an expanded consciousness when there's little or no brain functioning with traditional neuroscience and perhaps it's possible that consciousness functions independently of the brain as Dr. Bruce Grayson from the University of Virginia told me for my podcast Where's My Mind we're left with this paradox that at a time when the brain isn't functioning the mind is functioning better than ever so I'm coming across these credible researchers who are saying things that contradict my world view and then the last one I'll mention is that Princeton had a lab for nearly 30 years the PEAR lab the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Lab run by the former Dean of Engineering studying psychic phenomena like remote viewing which is when people send their mind out and can see things far away in space and time which has been validated by the U.S. government and declassified documents they also studied mind-matter interactions where people use their mind to affect a random number generator machine so this is a machine that spits out ones and zeros in a totally random fashion and over a long period of time it's 50% ones and 50% zeros because it's a random number generator what Dr. John and his colleagues have asked people to do is alter the machines with their mind make it produce more ones than zeros and statistically speaking they're able to do so repeatedly and this happens on a worldwide scale as well where you set up these machines all over the world and when there's a major event that affects people's emotions the machines start to behave non-randomly including 9-11 Princess Diana's death and so forth so the point here is that there are credible people studying these phenomena and I never heard about it so to your question what's going on there's been a real suppression of this stuff and people either have to leave academia like many of the scientists and ions and otherwise or you have an anomaly like the University of Virginia Dr. Ian Stevenson was a very prominent scientist in the late 60s so he was allowed to have this division of perceptual studies or Dr. Robert John at Princeton he was so highly credible he had a lab there that many people didn't like at Princeton but he was allowed to do it and it's kept very hush-hush well preach man you know your stuff and it is kind of funny because on one level I think this stuff seems kind of mild to a lot of people when they think it's much more provocative to look at Sandy Hook or the Harvest Festival shooting or 9-11 and this kind of stuff or what's going on with the Dranochrome and the rituals and who are the elite really talking to that stuff matters and it is relevant but it's almost like those people are focused on one scene in a play and you're trying to be like look at this theater we're in this you know this your questions are really much bigger and they do have some wild implications I'm curious about a single example that you point to when people doubt this stuff when you start to get into these conversations I know one example might be from a previous interview you talked about a guy who had four near-death experiences I can't recall his name right now but basically the same thing happened every time yeah his name is Danny and Brinkley and I interviewed him for my podcast Where Is My Mind episode six is all about this phenomenon he experienced it's called the Life Review where he relived his whole life during the near-death experience so he was electrocuted once had open-heart surgery twice and brain surgery once and each time he entered this altered state of consciousness which is known as a near-death experience and has been studied extensively by many medical doctors and researchers Dr. Bruce Grayson from UVA and others and they're concluding that many of these experiences cannot be explained by brain functioning alone in other words it seems that when you get the brain out of the way there's an expanded state of consciousness that can be accessed and perhaps the near-death experience state is showing what happens in the early stages of actual death and another point that suggests that that might be true is known as the shared death experience where a healthy person who doesn't have a dying brain is co-living in the dying process with the person who's dying and experiences the same things that a near-death experiencer would have sometimes including a life review so you have a non-dying brain co-living in the dying process with someone who is actually dying suggests that maybe the near-death experience is showing us the early stages of death but what happened for Daniel Brinkley it's such a rare case where someone almost dies that many times and he relived his life from the beginning each time so he had to relive his combat days in Vietnam he told me he was vicious in combat and he had to relive what it felt like to be the person that he killed so that was very traumatizing for him he also relived what it was like to be the children who no longer had a father because he had killed a father so he felt the indirect effects of his actions and as a result of that he came back he changed his whole life like many near-death experiencers do he became much less materialistic and he became a hospice volunteer so in his later near-death experiences which he didn't know he would have at the time during those life reviews he got to relive not only the bad stuff of the pain he caused in other people but he felt what it was like to be the dying person in the hospice and he got to see what it was like to be comforted by himself so he got to feel the love that he was giving to this person through that person's eyes so this is a commonality we see in near-death experiences which I think is compelling but actually the phenomenon I think is most compelling with regard to this question of consciousness it's known as the veridical out-of-body experience veridical out-of-body experience veridical means a verified memory basically so when a person is in the near-death state their consciousness sometimes is hovering over their body or in another room even and upon being resuscitated they come back and they tell the doctor or family members or other bystanders this is what was happening at this time and they explain it from the vantage point of being outside the body so what we have there is in the cases where the doctor says yeah actually that's what I was doing in surgery but you couldn't have known that because I know what your brain was doing at the time and by the way how could you explain that from a vantage point outside the body that can't be true so what we have is a verified memory in other words a non-hallucinatory experience non-hallucinatory it's not a hallucination if they can tell you what actually happened it's verified and if the doctor can time stamp it and say well I know what your body and brain were doing at the time because we have the medical data your brain should not have been capable of producing something that lucid let alone something from outside the body so when I interviewed Dr. Jan Holden from the University of North Texas who studies near-death experiences she says this wipes out physiological explanations of the near-death experience because a materialist or physicalist would say oh yeah these are interesting but it's just random products of the brain you know the brain has a spike of electrical activity and it produces this complex phenomenon you can't really explain a veridical out-of-body experience that way and that's a really powerful phenomenon I would refer your audience to a book called The Self Does Not Die which has accumulated over 100 of these cases they're very difficult to document and if you think about it Greg most people in these situations they're just trying to live and the doctor's trying to save them they're not thinking about scientific research about the nature of consciousness so when you can actually document these and you have over 100 cases it's really powerful yeah and obviously it scales up from there we'll get into some of your other books but then you get into the contact book the two I read getting ready for this were upside down contact and cosmology but there's overlap between a lot of these books and when you get into near-death experiences that involve the Greys and messages from the Greys about dead loved ones and them being there is a lot of crazy crossover and if consciousness is primary then there's a lot of different situations that can arise from consciousness but you mentioned that you are on the board at Ions and I have had two Ion scientists on Dr. Dean Radin and Dr. Helena Waba who wrote the book about channeling really fascinating book and I like the work they do but I haven't really heard about anything recently from Ions what are they working on now well there's research always coming out and at the Ions website there's a publications page if any of your audience members are interested in following the new publications but it's psi phenomena there's always interest in that meaning psychic abilities Helene Wabe focuses she's written a book on the science of channeling work on lucid dreaming for example some work on energy healing and really we're interested in anything that challenges the mainstream paradigm we have a new president Thomas Brophy and I think now that there's more interest in these phenomena there's not the same taboo that I encountered when I came out with my first book in 2018 and into upside down thinking there's more receptivity to these sorts of things and there was a Netflix documentary docuseries called Surviving Death the telepathy tapes podcast featuring Dr. Diane Powell on nonverbal autistic savants who can read their caretakers minds I actually interviewed Dr. Diane Powell in my podcast as well back in 2019 more momentum and I'm hoping that because of that people will start to acknowledge the research that ion scientists are doing but they're doing controversial stuff that is not acknowledged by most academics although what I hear a lot is that there will be mainstream professors who will tell the scientists we're really interested in your work but we can't talk about this so we'll just have to talk in private or another researcher I know she was told to take her precognition research off her resume if she wanted to make tenure so she ended up having to leave academia this is the sort of thing we're dealing with and that's probably why you don't hear too much about ions yeah it's true it's crazy out there that the old paradigm can hang on so long when I really do think so many people are past it but okay as a board member of ions I'm curious about this so ions was funded or founded by Edgar Mitchell a guy who came out of the Navy to become the Apollo 14 lunar module pilot and they say the sixth man to walk on the moon his official biography also says he was raised in Roswell New Mexico during the time of the incident and I find that to be curious too but having read your cosmology book I know that you've thoroughly deconstructed the moon landing hoax how do you square these two things anyone can develop an interest in consciousness of course we're all human but this is someone who apparently deceived the world about their crowning accomplishment and then started this organization in which you are now a board member of writing a book about the flat earth well I would say my book is about globe skepticism and skepticism of cosmology generally speaking rather than saying I know what it is for certain but I do talk about this notion of a topographical plane and different frameworks that have been put forth I joined the board of IONS in 2019 after the first book came out I was not questioning cosmology at the time I never met Dr. Edgar Mitchell any views I have with regard to cosmology I should preface by saying are my own views and don't necessarily reflect the views of anyone at the organization you have to talk to them about it of course but the work of IONS and their consciousness research was part of what changed my life it started me down this rabbit hole of questioning the nature of reality itself like you said Greg the container the metaphysical container of is matter fundamental is something else fundamental what is this place that informs how we think about any conspiracy or even politics or economics I think the metaphysics is essential and IONS played a big role for me in in shifting that and I think the research they're still putting out is very important in shifting the paradigm around getting away from materialism or physicalism so in that regard I think it's a very important organization and and anything else I can't speak to because I never I never met Edgar Mitchell fair enough yes and and people are complicated we don't even know what happened to them I'm curious what you think because there's one angle that the astronauts were Freemasons and that Freemasons are an old powerful organization that have infiltrated the sciences and thus they can kind of put out the narratives that the rest of us trust as them being the experts so there's this angle that they did Freemasonic rituals on the moon this is what the dark mission book by Hoagland is all about then you see that press conference after the one of the moon landings and they all look so confused and I sometimes wonder were they part of an organization set up to deceive and they've been lying the whole time or is it possible that they themselves were even tricked when I've watched that press conference I drift towards thinking that they were tricked because when they start getting asked questions about stars they're like huh what was that what do you think do you think they were maybe hypnotized and maybe only realized it years later or do you think they were deceiving everyone from the ground up I really don't know but I ask many of those questions when I when I look at anyone that is doing something that I don't agree with let's say so we look at the press conference after the the first alleged moon landing and the astronauts all look depressed you'd think that they would be celebrating this major accomplishment for mankind and they look despondent multiple things come to my mind whether it's with regard to the moon landings or any other initiative I asked myself is the person knowingly participating in some deception or they unknowingly doing it and if they're knowingly doing it why are they intentionally evil and they want to deceive everyone or is it more subtle are they threatened are they blackmailed have they been bribed is MK ultra involved we don't know what's going on in these simulations with NASA and other organizations is is MK ultra involved in that and I was interested when I when I interviewed Russell Targ for my podcast where is my mind he was one of the leaders of the US government's psychic spying program in the 70s he's a laser physicist and he talked to me all about how remote viewing is a real phenomenon but he talked also about the funding for the program so we're talking about consciousness here and he mentioned NASA as one of the organizations that funded the research and I remember when I heard that in 2019 I just thought that was interesting that okay there's so many government organizations but now I'm looking at questioning cosmology and as you know Greg in my book and into the upside down cosmos I don't talk about space agencies until later in the book right and that's for a reason because I think questioning the physics is a fundamental part of of looking at this what the space agencies claim and cosmology in general because what NASA and other organizations claim is based on physics that we can show is broken so if the if we have broken physics then the narrative is inherently problematic in terms of could you even land on a rock that's allegedly 238 thousand miles away in order for that to happen there are a lot of things that you need to be true in terms of the physics so it makes me wonder for a lot of reasons what what's actually going on and there weren't that many people that even allegedly went to the moon so we're dealing with a small number of people no independent journalism and a lot of anomalies so I don't know for sure what happened but there are the narrative doesn't seem to hold up to me yeah and you're making good points I would agree that I also speculate knowing or unknowingly deceiving and when you look at that press conference if they were knowingly deceiving they would have played the part they would have done the Robbie Parker thing of like you know showing the emotion that people expect to be shown rather than as if five minutes ago they were like hey those pictures we have of you we're going to put them out if you say anything about the fact that we're making all this shit up and because they do look like they got a gun to their head kind of to be at that press conference so I guess I kind of give some of the astronauts a pass I suppose but it also is a good approach to be like look if the physics are broken let's start there you know then then none of this works it because a lot of people their first response as I know you know is well how could a lie this big be kept there's a bunch of different organizations I actually look this up so there are 77 countries with space agencies and there are 16 countries with launch capabilities so if we know that this is a lie then that suggests a level of control above the nation state how do you get 16 countries to play ball especially ones that are often supposed to be in opposition to each other so it is just a curious thing that's not a qualifier for the physics being wrong you know when you have these conversations with people they're just like well it seems like the lie is too big well that's not evidence that's just your assumption that the lie is too big but I am curious what you think about that when you scale it up to it's like wow there is a massive global coordination to perpetuate this lie across many different cultures races nationalities nations it's kind of crazy right it's the hardest thing for me to believe and it was probably the biggest hurdle for me in deciding whether I wanted to submit an end to the upside down cosmos to my publisher and by the way credit to waterside productions for publishing these books I send the manuscript and I never have a I never have a clue if they're gonna think I'm crazy or not and they've stuck with me but I I don't know how it works I just don't know how it works if we look at the moon missions for example there were only a small number of people that allegedly went there a lot of other activities from space agencies involves sending things up high in the sky so high altitude rockets aren't precluded by the physics that has been challenged so there are things that space agencies could do that make sense it's it's more about leaving quote unquote earth's atmosphere to go into the quote unquote vacuum of space and the alleged distances that things are away including these planets that are supposedly rocks and so forth that those things get into questioning physics and one thing I could speculate is that there are people who are taking in data within the organizations but they don't necessarily know the origin of the data so those people wouldn't have to be in on any lie they would just be doing their job based on the assumptions that they have and if you had a few people who could alter the data then this lie could be propagated but I don't know without being on it in the inside doesn't make sense to me yeah I am right there with you on that so obviously you wrote this book on the medical system as well the end of upside down medicine contagion viruses and vaccines like we've done many whole shows on that topic and there's still examples from my waking life that I'm I can't square it's actually funny because it's kind of the opposite of flat earth right flat earth you know I guess I shouldn't say that but questioning the cosmology and the conventional model your observer effect is what breaks it you're like well I don't know I don't care what I read in this textbook my observer effect does not match that and on the on the contagion side it's almost the opposite is like I've got a lot of alternative doctors saying well these things are all part of Rockefeller medicine they're not real and then my kid comes home from school sick and it feels very real when me and her mom get sick so it's like almost the opposite it's just strange but the commonality is looking at big things and looking at small things and I agree with you about the point about the data because it is interesting like how many deceptions are based off a computer model and there's all this debate did they ever isolate the virus of COVID and they and if you look at the papers they say well we got most of it and then a computer model filled in the rest of it and it's like well then you didn't get it and it's it's just it's just an interesting point that maybe someone at the highest level is injecting data to the people who are in the mid middle levels just doing their job because you can't see any of this stuff you need a telescope to see space and then you need an electron microscope to see things at the virus level because viruses are like 50 to 100 times smaller than bacteria so you are in a privileged club already and then they just manipulate the software I suppose and then just you're you're already set up to pre-assume that you see this little squiggle on the slide and that's what made that person sick and space has similar assumptions based on your education but interesting point that we have to figure out how so many people are deceived and it seems like kind of maybe through the software well also there is no direct evidence for the things claimed in both cosmology and medicine and therefore the belief in those models relies on a logical fallacy inherently it's known as affirming the consequence if x then y y therefore x if it rains then the grass outside will be wet I observe wet grass therefore it rained well it could have been dew or sprinklers or children running by and pouring water on the grass or a lot of other reasons that we could observe things so observing something doesn't necessarily tell us its cause we see that a lot in cosmology and we see it a lot in medicine but in terms of direct evidence what would direct evidence for the current cosmology be well we'd want to see a big bang that was allegedly 13.8 billion years ago so there's no direct evidence we're seeing things like radiation that we we say that was because of a big bang and there are holes in that or heliocentrism the idea that earth goes around the sun well we'd want to see earth going around the sun but no one's ever shown a video of that no one's ever shown a picture of earth in its alleged place in the solar system with the other planets around the sun so we don't have that direct evidence we have inferences and if we wanted to prove a spinning globe earth having a radius value of roughly 4,000 miles at the equator on a tilted axis we'd want to see a oblate spheroid shape doing a full rotation so that would mean continuous video footage of a full sphere not parts of it at high altitudes and then making a composite image based on satellite imagery you'd want to have a full sphere doing a full rotation and you'd want to be able to zoom in on that sphere and see buildings and people standing upright on the top hanging sideways on the side and simultaneously hanging upside down on the bottom of the sphere we don't have that direct evidence similarly if we wanted to prove that a virus existed and caused disease we want to see the things that a virus is alleged to do so we'd want to see this intracellular parasite getting inside of a host cell inside of an organism replicating bursting out of that host cell going into other cells causing physical disease symptoms in that organism in the process and then going outside of that organism and jumping to another organism and doing the same thing we don't have any of that because we have a lot of stuff that's going on in a laboratory we have cell cultures where you take fluids from a sick person and then put it into the cell culture and if cells break down in the cell culture people assume that a virus must have caused that this is a method that was conceived in 1954 by enders and peoples and i've just simplified it but basically we have indirect evidence we have electron microscope imagery and that's a problem because you have to really tamper with the sample you have to slice it up stain it with resin all sorts of things so you're looking at something that's dead under the electron microscope and then you say this dead thing is the thing that was inside of an organism doing all the stuff that i claimed before that that we're told is claimed about a virus it's indirect you're looking at a structure but you don't know the structure is viral in nature and that's what happens with all this stuff you're seeing wet grass and you're like well if it rained then that's why i would see wet grass i mean it's true if the viral model model existed then if we took fluids from a sick person and put it into a cell culture cells would break down doesn't necessarily mean a virus was the cause or if a virus existed we would see certain patterns of illness a bunch of people go to a party some of them get sick afterwards well the viral model could explain that but that doesn't mean the viral model is the only explanation what other common things were people exposed to were there environmental toxins did they eat the same food that they were food had food poisoning or were there electromagnetic issues emfs electricity were there spiritual issues resonance that people experienced biofield are there parts of science we don't even understand that explain common exposure that could make people sick are there psycho psychological issues there's a field called german new medicine which deals with the role of the psyche and resolving conflicts so the point is that people could be exposed to similar things that could cause similar symptoms you don't need a virus for that there are a lot of other things and by the way often what happens is that not everyone gets as sick so some people might have certain symptoms but not it's not as bad and some people get really sick and some people don't get sick at all we would need to explain those anomalies what happens post hoc rationalizations or as dr tom cowan calls it inventive reasoning oh well there was this immune system response that these people had that they did the other ones didn't and their immune system was stronger so they were able to fight off the virus that no one's found and that explains it so you end up with inference on top of inference and it's a house of cards and it's the same thing with cosmology yeah i love a good tom cowan reference i'm a fan and i've been trying to get them here tom don't let my friendship with alex a caris keep you from coming here because i know that there was that famous interview that lasted about 10 minutes when alex wouldn't let it go about the virus but great point and also the system tells us oh when you shake hands with a person you're transferring a million viruses okay well if that's true how are you going to say that the thing on this slide the little squiggle that you see on the tv screen that's supposed to be the same thing is the cause of the illness i mean obviously we've been through this and uh it is just a curious thing so i really like the psychology i mean i've just been doing conspiracy so long and i've always even going back to the first crack in my own awareness 9-11 it was just so interesting when someone presented to me oh here's a documentary that suggests that the government did this and it was an inside job and i was like intrigued i was like yeah let's watch that and i was among friends and some of them said i'm not even going to give that the time of day and it's like whoa why it's just not maybe they don't make that good of a case let's just see and the room was totally split i will not look at that and we were like 20 we shouldn't be indoctrinated too badly yet and i just saw a real split and i'm always interested in the conspiracy psychology and i've heard you say two things about your own kind of journey and all these subjects and trying to talk to people one is that when you get into discussions about these topics and the assumptions that people have about them you realize that they don't actually know that much about the models that they aggressively defend the person challenging the model of virology or heliocentrism or consciousness tends to know a lot more and that's so true because they're going against the grain they don't want to be wrong so they've got their ducks more in a row than the random person who just assumes everything they've heard is true and doesn't even really know how to repeat what they've heard and then two when you investigate these ideas that drive huge sectors of our lives like medicine or are agreed upon official history you learn that there's oftentimes not a lot there at the foundation that it's assumptions based on assumptions based on one guy who worked for the british royal society it's wild like i think that's kind of the thing that surprises more people rather than the first point but talk to us about some of these subjects you've looked at and how when you really got down there there's there's not a lot of hard evidence at the bottom that's one of the reasons i felt like i could publish these books or submit them to my publisher and hope that they would accept it because i realized that those who challenged these alternative views would often reflexively say well that's just a psyop without actually knowing what was being argued so i said there's a lot here and it's worth presenting the other side or at least the challenges to the mainstream model because we need to figure this stuff out but the other commonality is the lack of direct evidence for the thing claimed so the mainstream metaphysics physicalism materialism everything can be explained by these little billiard balls hitting each other leading to a human being after billions of years of evolution which has a brain and consciousness pops out no one has ever observed consciousness popping out of a brain we believe that because of correlation that the brain is correlated with conscious experience correlation is not necessarily causation do firefighters cause fires or do they put out fires some people would conclude oh well the firefighters are there so they must have caused the fire is that what we're doing with the brain and consciousness the brain creates consciousness because the brain's correlated no actually there's another model that the brain could be like an antenna or a filtering mechanism or there's an alternative that can explain a lot of what we see same thing with virology if you're going to shut the world down on the basis of this particle that gets inside of host cells and replicates and is this parasite and can be transmitted from one organism to another can you show it to us please and i just expected when i looked into this because that was book six greg like yeah i know i had heard the virus stuff and i i was skeptical and said i i don't that sounds like a distraction something to keep the the health freedom community discredited or even the movement to to question jabs you have these people talking about viruses that's gonna that's gonna distract from what we should really be talking about which is these toxins that we're injecting children and adults with but then i looked into it i didn't even know what the arguments were i was stunned to learn for example like it would you think it'd be really easy to demonstrate contagion forget isolating a virus and showing that a virus exists and the fact that the freedom of information requests submitted by christine massey and her colleagues around the world she asked for a purified sample of just a virus by itself and they all say we don't have it because the gold standard is not to do that the gold standard is to use a cell culture so we never have an independent variable in any of these studies you would want to have an independent variable as just a virus because you'd want to introduce just a virus into a sample of healthy organisms to see if those healthy organisms get sick but let's just say we don't have that because we know from the way virology works they don't ever get to a fully purified sample they'll filter a sample but it's never a virus by itself there's never an independent variable but as dr cowan and others say is well why don't we just take some sick people and put them with healthy people and see if the healthy ones that get sick that's actually been done with the spanish flu milton rosenow medical doctor he took people with this allegedly so such a contagious virus they injected fluids of sick people into healthy people they didn't get sick they had sick people cough in the faces of healthy people the healthy people didn't get sick they tried everything they couldn't transmit and the way these contagion studies are done is often they'll claim we demonstrated contagion but it's using an unnatural method so with regard to polio for example the first demonstration of contagion was to take an unpurified sample and inject it into monkey brains and the monkey got sick what do you know monkey got sick after you injected unpurified sample into their brain and they say we've demonstrated contagion so there's a great book out by daniel roy toss called can you catch a cold yeah evaluated over 200 studies of demonstrations where they were trying to transmit the cold but they weren't able to do it and without having the independent variable of the purified sample of a virus all those studies are inherently going to be problematic anyway yes daniel is great he was here a little less than a year ago i think and you know he is one of these doctors who is citing these kind of studies that you're bringing up but i thought what was unique about his work and you kind of brought up this point too when they try to isolate things especially at that micron level they're adding formaldehyde bleach they're cutting they're dicing they're arranging it in this paper mache situation it's not just like take it out of the body put on the slide and here it is and he applied that to vitamins and it's like the whole scurvy thing with vitamin c well we know vitamin c is the thing that cures everyone and now we can just put vitamin c in a pill and you have that one component of the orange that is healthy no that's bullshit that's like a consumerism trick you know because how did they discover that vitamin c is the thing in the orange well same thing they split it all apart tried to isolate various parts added formaldehyde to this and that and then they injected into people and eventually someone didn't get sick and they're like well that's the healing mechanism right there that's the vitamin c vitamin d is even crazier because you're telling me this thing there's something in sunlight that you can essentially put into a pill eventually and the people like dr tom cowan would say all that vitamin d is is a readout in your body of how much sun exposure you've had it's not really anything it's just a number on a screen that says this person recently got sunlight whereas sunlight is a hugely complex situation but it does seem to be good for our health but i just thought daniel was really great at pointing out that maybe the whole vitamin supplement industry is really just another net to catch us from the pharmaceutical industry we think we're being healthier we think we're going holistic it's just more pills you got to eat whole foods because they're so complex that we don't really know what's in there that's truly the healing mechanism it's running into the same logical fallacy i mentioned before affirming the consequent where there's an observation and then a causal model is put on top of it oh we now we know why they got healthy it's because of this one thing i haven't studied the vitamin issue quite as much but it seems similar to what's going on in virology daniel roy toss also did a great webinar with dr tom cowan on parasites and talks about small parasites called protozoa and he asked the same question has that actually been isolated and have the big parasites been shown as the causal agents of disease this is part of the terrain theory which challenges the germ theory of disease the idea is that bacteria exist fungi exist large parasites exist and now there's this debate about small parasites but do those things that exist cause disease or are they actually cleaning up the body because the body is so toxic that these things need to emerge in large quantities to get rid of it so it would be like blaming the firefighter for trying to put out the fire when you see this quote unquote bacterial infection that's a question to ask but i think it's worth doubling down on this viral isolation method because it's basically the same thing that happens in these other areas the 1954 study that i mentioned before enders and peebles they were the first ones to isolate a virus but basically they changed the definition of the word isolate as dr tom cowan says isolation means to separate one thing from all other things if you want to separate a hammer from a toolbox you take the hammer out of a toolbox then you can study the hammer you can characterize it and then you can learn learn that you know hammer can smash a nail and the hammer caused the nail to get smashed because you isolated the hammer i mean it sounds so simple so you think that if you're isolating a virus you're taking the virus out from all the other things and then you can introduce that virus into other samples and you can introduce it into healthy organisms so you can see if they get sick but that's not what they do they take a cell culture which is a soup of material that has antibiotics monkey kidney cells all sorts of other things they take fluids from a sick person in the case of the 1954 study they took this was a measles patient so someone that had symptoms that they assumed was a viral that was caused by a virus they took those fluids filtered them put it into the cell culture and they found that some of the cells broke down in the cell culture when they added fluids from a sick person and they concluded well we know because we're presupposing that the person had measles symptoms because of a virus so the fluids from that person must have had a virus in it and therefore when we added it to the cell culture soup when cells broke down it must have been the virus that caused that i mean there are a lot of other reasons cells could have broken down like the fact that you have antibiotics and lots of other things in the cell culture or maybe other things in the person's body there are a lot of other questions yeah but they call that isolation so that's not isolation and if your audience is looking this up on google and they find hundreds of papers of the isolation of SARS-CoV-2 and other viruses they're saying well what are you guys talking about these papers talk about isolation they're speaking about isolation using the cell culture method because they have a different method definition in virology and as i said this is problem problematic because they're not following the scientific method in order to follow the scientific method you need to have an independent variable and proper controls therefore you need to have a truly purified sample you know i know we don't have a lot of time left but you're questioning cosmology virology atoms the nature of every single thing well i have to ask you a little more about the the deceivers i mean we're talking about a level of deception that spans all scientific knowledge space medicine consciousness matter physics everything walk us through how the logic of who could even pull this off and for so long because there's a lot of people they talk about the power pyramid there's a lot of people putting someone else at that capstone but you have to have thought about this and it is an important question who is deceiving us to this degree i have no idea who to me it's metaphysical it's a spiritual war at some level demonic satanic beings archons i don't know what they are that human beings can interact with and we see this in satanic rituals where people and have been doing this for a very long time have sophisticated rituals involving horrific forms of torture to invoke dark entities and they claim to get power from them so if we extrapolate that to what's happening in the world it makes a lot of sense that there could be some people who know how to access these dark entities and dark entities who know how to access us and can manipulate society because i i have been thinking about this a lot and more and more of i'm born into the world and i thought i was pretty well educated and i was taught stuff at like credentialed places and now i'm contradicting everything that i learned how could that be if the system were set up by a few people and then you had other people to then propagate that innocently it could happen like the flexner report for example which changed the medical system in 1910 we went from a holistic system to now the allopathic system which is reduction reductionistic it's all based on germ theory they got homeopathy and those alternative things out of there but that was based on a few people at the top that decided to change the system and then you had the order followers who believed in the system and we're going to continue to propagate it and i sometimes think what would i believe if i were taught nothing many of the things that i believe from school and the media i probably wouldn't believe i would say come on you got to prove that to me we're expanding a million miles an hour in an ever expanding universe and there's this infinite space vacuum and there are these little viruses that no one's ever seen and that's what's causing people to get sick and there's this dna stuff or you know what i mean i wouldn't necessarily believe it because no one has shown it to me so you could see how the belief system comes from indoctrination which could be enacted by elite individuals who have power in society yes yeah that's fair to say i mean with medicine it's very easy to be like well this rockefeller foundation has a huge influence on it obviously oil petrochemicals become medicine you know it's all kind of the same industry there and then you reverse engineer that you know you're from the ivy league where the ivy league come from a lot of the universities are either jesuit universities or they were funded from money this is something i learned from john patash funded from money of drug traffickers that were involved with like the east india company so you can go back to that and they've got a black market thing going on under the surface and then that is the money that funds the ivy leagues that do the brainwashing so you can at least take it that far and say that these are some of the organizations involved the royal society how much of our conventional model comes from the royal society you have to take it there too beyond that it does get a little hard to pin down you can say secret societies freemasons seem to be heavily involved in a lot of this skull and bones freemason adjacent organizations but i don't know if you can i can really go much further back than that obviously the money is a big thing that we're on a fiat currency system so you can throw some shade at kazarian banking families i guess and then they go into the religious aspects of like charging usury to certain groups and not others that's going to be a factor but even though money is ubiquitous and it is an enslavement tool money doesn't have a lot to do with the ideologies that we've adopted that we're deconstructing today so where do those ideologies come from is it all industry i don't know i can't take it back much further than like the royal society and the jesuits would you agree kind of i really don't know i get lost in that area of research because it becomes very difficult to verify what's happening within secret societies by definition if they're secretive it's hard to know and even the whistleblowers we don't know what's disinformation we can try to triangulate and i know people do that but i get lost my my brain explodes when i look into that history and that's why my books haven't tried to pin this seeming conspiracy metaphysical conspiracy to any individuals it's too difficult another thing i think about a lot because of my background is i've known prominent people very successful people throughout my life i've never seen any of these conspiracies i know a lot of people who think they're doing good and they might fund things that i don't think are good like leftist initiatives for example and i've written against that stuff but even within like you say within the ivy leagues there are groups or clubs like skull and bones i mean i don't know what goes on there but there are levels to all this stuff within finance i worked on wall street but i was an analyst i don't know what was going on that was controlling the deals that i was working on for example i was just following the orders of the people above me and trying to do a good job so i can see how this pyramid would work and another one to throw in is that i'm culturally jewish i you know that's the big topic right now i've known a lot of jewish people in my life i was never religious and growing up i went i just thought it was total bs the religion i thought all religion was bs now i'm more open to all the traditions but i've known a lot of jewish people and i've never heard a lot of the claims that come out in terms of conspiracy like i've never encountered some of that stuff directly so if this is happening in society this meta conspiracy it has to be a very very small group that's tightly controlled and maybe blackmail and these other things are mechanisms of control and it probably is very ancient yeah blackmail for sure and uh yeah i have jewish friends that are also secular they don't practice the religion their parents do they come from wealth it is interesting but you know you can't control what family you're born into or what body you're born into you know but there there is something weird with israel israel you should be able to criticize that's a country you know you can you know you can say why why does it seem to be an israel first kind of thing but maybe they just have a very sophisticated and successful blackmail network and that's what it comes down to but there is this whether it's freemasons or this sect within judaism which david ike calls sabbatian frankism uh it just seems like a lot of people think that there is a a room where people gather and they say you know all these other people are expendable and you know whoever you put at the apex i suppose whatever label you put on that it seems to be pretty ubiquitous that throughout all time periods that there is an elite who think the rest of us are expendable and that's about as far as you can take it it seems like the people within the secret room do change and another thing i find difficult to just conceptualize is if you have people that are that malicious who aren't just innocently propagating a narrative because they think they're doing the right thing like vaccines there are a lot of people who innocently think they're doing a good job but they haven't done the research to say that everyone should get a vaccine but we're talking about the people that are maliciously wanting to enslave if they're that malicious would they be able to coordinate with others without just killing them off and not being greedy and maybe that's where blackmail plays in where it's mutually assured destruction i don't know where it's like they they can't enact their evilness in that setting because it's against their interests and they're they're somehow coherent enough not to or you know in the same way that mafia families they can sort of coexist peacefully i'm just guessing here yeah it is a lot of guesswork and of course with the the jewish thing people say well look at what they write about the goyim and how you can just take advantage of the goyim and and you know look at the talmud and stuff and it's like well i grew up christian catholic look at all the religions all the religions basically are like if you aren't one of us then you are nothing and we can exploit you and you're going to hell forever so every religion has that you can make an argument that maybe jews have been more successful than the other groups who have the same mindset you know it's not an it's not a monopoly on the mindset of superiority because all religions have that kill the infidel you know it's it's all the same stuff so either way and then how many then how many people within a religion culturally or otherwise have actually read the scriptures i mean ask your jewish friends how many of them have read the talmud or live by it i mean i haven't read the talmud i've read portions that people have sent me um so i think we have to get like more specific as to which people we're talking about because there certainly are people that probably abide by religious scriptures and things like that and then i have big questions about the biblical stories all the stories but this notion of elohim i've written about that in my books yes spoken with friends from israel and they're like yeah elohim that's plural plural in hebrew so elohim meaning the the creator in the torah the old testament maybe that was plural and one of the elohim is the god of the jewish people in the torah which i'm very critical of that god because it doesn't seem like the unconditionally loving interconnected thing that people experience with near-death experiences or psychedelics or meditation or breathing or whatever else we see a much more human-like figure that exhibits greed and and more human emotions that are always positive and that's the god of the old testament so it raises questions about what what actually happened there what happened was the story of moses true on mount cyanide what what was the light show up there were we talking about interdimensional beings that he encountered one of the elohim i'm just throwing a lot of stuff out there no yeah i i love that and uh you know we're really cooking with gas now but it is about that time i i gotta start wrapping this thing up for you so this really was great i'm impressed with how you've applied your classical education and work ethic to such conspiratorial material it's not easy to write seven books in such a short period of time but if you're coming out of academia where they're already cracking the whip on you to produce written material you're kind of a mindset already that you can keep that going and i didn't really touch on your political books let's fold that in just real quick because i i kind of skipped over those two and i read the contact book we didn't even talk about but the whole idea of spirits being the true thing and aliens being a deception i mean that comes up here all the time but i did love the book and people interested in that subject would like it too i skipped the political ones because to me just knowing the right political structure doesn't really help me mentally because i have no control over the political structure in which we're in so a lot of times it sounds like we're trying to circle around a potential utopia that is arbitrary anyway but maybe touch on those two give us the uh the whole ending pitch give us your links and all that good stuff but this has been a lot of fun yeah i really appreciate it greg and thanks for going in so many different directions an end to upside down liberty published in 2021 my first political book it's the book i was most nervous about publishing because at the time i had just written about spirituality and consciousness and i remember how polarizing that period was i knew i would lose people and certainly i did that book makes an argument against the political monopoly known as the state that's the form of government we have all over the world political monopoly over certain territory i think it's important to to critique it even if the alternative might be utopia a fully privatized society known as voluntarism because it pokes holes in the way we're doing things and it helps to evaluate policy from a different perspective but to me it also violates basic logic the logic of why we think we need a government is that we don't trust people if we trust the people we wouldn't need a government but people are too warlike and untrustworthy and they're going to do bad things if we didn't have a government so our solution based on the fact that we don't trust people is to take a subset of the people we don't trust and put them into a political monopoly and then give them unilateral decision-making authority to enact laws even if we disagree with them doesn't make any logical sense to do that to take people you don't trust and put them in a position of power over you and the argument is well we are just going to elect them and then we're going to put the right people into power but then again the logic has been violated because if you don't trust people you wouldn't trust them to elect the right people into power and you wouldn't trust them to run free and fair elections so you run into some logical contradictions in based into statism the way we do government and this feeds into economics the austrian school of economics i won't go into that here but i think there are a lot of compelling arguments the the kicker that i incorporate in that book is that i argue that the state violates natural law based on what we see in near-death experiences and the life review and it seems that morality is embedded within reality the golden rule based on the life review and near-death experiences and if we apply that then the way we do government violates natural law that's the connector the way we do economics because you are unable under statism to violate the non-aggression people you can tell people to do things they didn't ask for you can initiate aggression against their private property without their explicit and mutually agreed upon consent instead we have implied consent and a social contract that no one's ever seen no one's ever seen what the social contract is klaus schwab talks about revising the social contract which feeds into this other political book and into the upside down reset on the great reset and in that book i ask the question what what's the initial social contract that we're revising but in that second political book i criticize the great reset as a largely leftist initiative leftist being distinct from liberal so liberal would say i respect your right to say anything you want whereas a leftist would say yeah say anything you want unless we subjectively deem it to be hateful and we can there are a lot of other examples of that and the great reset is not 100 leftist but parallels many of that many aspects of that ideology so i break down the weaponization of compassion and talk about the dangers of that because we see it a lot in the spiritual community of these things that pull on the heartstrings of people oh this sounds so nice we're going to save the planet and not let you drive your car as much we're not going to let you travel because we're being so compassionate and and many other areas of what some would call the woke initiatives in culture and we see this with economics too of things that sound good don't always do good and that shows up on the political spectrum and that book seeks to expose it and end to the upside down reset all of my books are available on amazon in hard copy kindle and audible formats i narrate the audibles myself i have a podcast series where is my mind that i mentioned on the nature of consciousness in that series just for your audience's reference i mentioned viruses and flat earth as things that basically the opposite of what we talked about today that was back in 2019 so i didn't know at the time i hadn't explored those topics so don't hold it against me please that's available on spotify apple podcast all the major players and my website is mark gober.com m-a-r-k-g-o-b-e-r awesome awesome always be closing you know how to stick a landing so thank you again i mean we really covered everything there is to cover and i appreciate your openness and you know just the level of research that you have done it's been a real pleasure take care out there and the crowd goes wild i hope it's maybe a little early to take a victory lap but that was a fun one right i really think mark is putting out good stuff he's got a good sense of humor while also having some pretty damn good arguments i think and i've really thought this since 9-11 but i'm glad he brings it up that people who tend to be most close-minded to alternative takes tend to know the least about the details of their own tightly held close-chested official position it's cathartic to hear someone say that because we all experience it and you would think that those people would be the first ones to say i'm not sure i don't know but i guess if it's an issue of trust and faith over critical thinking then we're not in the realm of logic anyway yeah so i liked this one i think it's really interesting that he has this impressive resume and background and education but yet he done woke up and you can't go back and so he applied this impressive work ethic to coalescing all the information that he's absorbed into this series of books the more the merrier right maybe he'll get some people on the heliocentrism thing who have yet to be convinced hard to say but we joked about a lot of stuff and i thought it was fun in the plus show you know there was this thing that came up where he knows that people in conspiratopia are going to be skeptical of him too because of his jewish background and his just general career i mean working in banks and big tech you know it's kind of hard to hit other spots on the bingo card that makes someone more skeptical but you know life is funny and you know i did actually think that we would have heliocentrism take up far less airtime but ultimately if i have a guest who's this diverse i just like it to be the material that doesn't overlap with the episodes around it and so from that perspective i think that this went really well and i definitely would do it again we shared a couple of links with each other after the show and i sent him a link to hidden energy tesla inspired inventors and a mindful path to energy abundance by janine manning and susan manowich because it's probably the best intro summary into the broad topic of alternative tech and energy that i've found and then he could follow the threads deeper from there but few books hit at least all the big ones as far as i know which is of course why he should end up doing the end of upside down energy because there's a hole in the market i would say and i think the implications are insane and there just needs to be more books that pull it all together and if you want to add in prohibition being about alcohol as a fuel and the control demolition of the american rail system in exchange for the highway network and the whole hindenburg false flag if you'll loop all that and then you're really cooking with gas and putting out a book that hits a sweet spot that i've never really seen hit like it should be so i enjoyed this a lot i got a kick out of asking him about you know the fact that he's a heliocentrism critic and then being on the board of an organization founded by an apollo astronaut look again life's funny the world is a mess and full of these sorts of things we can laugh about it i respect ions there should be actually a lot of shade to throw and complaints to make when it comes to scientific organizations way before you get down to ions they're doing good stuff i actually need to check in on what they are doing maybe they've got some scientists that have new projects and new books out i'd like to revisit that but yes anyway if you like the first hour of course the plus show piled on more curious inconsistencies and fun facts from his book or books i should say but in terms of heliocentrism we talked about whale communication and sonar waves what's going on there how is that explained in the model the antarctica final experiment as they call it and its implications we talked about the nature of the moon and some weird stuff there the crescent moon and the stars and the nations who have that motif on their flags and what it means especially when the star is within what should be the circumference of the moon it's odd i brought up that thing about moonlight and it seeming to be colder than the shadow at night odd i've seen the i've seen the videos on youtube where they take the thermometer and it seems to check out i don't know how it makes sense but whatever uh we talked about some of the historical stuff he leaned on when it comes to the earth shape the just general perception of the nature of reality we questioned atomism and physical reality itself we went deep we got into the nature of consciousness the concept of a captured world and how this could all actually happen to us near-death experience and the messages that we should get from that magic and consciousness manipulation and the power of manifestation we talked about nuclear weapons and the historical narratives there and also the thing that i have yet to really dive into to a degree in which i can consider myself on board and that is the titans and the ancient beings and the work of stellium seven that analog tends to bring up well mark brought it up to or at least in his books he did i think i brought it up in the actual interview but it was fun to talk about that i i'm down to talk about it even if i have to say this makes me feel like maybe i wasn't as open-minded as i thought i was but it is interesting i might be talking to stellium seven here soon but anyway yes when we're going hard at atoms and the moon and titans and the mud flood you know we're having a good time you should have seen my man in the sound booth he was not ready but even as i talked to him afterwards he was saying that his mind was blown and he had a lot to think about and he thought this was one of the better ones we recorded since i've been in the studio so sign up for thc plus if you want a second hour of these here interviews and want to support a truly independent and ad-free show all right well i wish mark luck and success trying to get people to think critically about all the assumptions they have is a noble goal i hope he does the energy book and i would be happy to put him in the rotation no pun intended and when we talk about the rotation oof someone that the listeners don't seem to want me to have back is stephen bassett wow i respect his role in the world someone really should be doing that but it just seems like a lot of people who heard that show in full find the only real value in it to be that i did a good job representing what so many people would want to say to stephen their frustrations with the overall field and just the notion that we have to keep this cloud of doubt over ufology until we get the president to give us the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth in some formal press conference scenario it's something that i would like to see as a novelty as a huh let's sit back and watch the circus sort of thing but it wouldn't mean much to me personally in terms of how i feel about ufology high strangeness the field of all this stuff and the evidence that is out there and i would assume there'd still be some sort of spin or carefully crafting of the narrative so you know i would probably take it with a grain of salt but i am glad i did the interview with stephen and i find it useful to take a show to make those points but the guests usually do a lot more of the talking than i do on this show and so some found it difficult to be patient in between my attempts to get those points through to him i'm glad some people saw what i was going for there i'm never trying to tear a guest down or anything maybe just nudge them to alter their approach a slight bit or consider information from another realm i mean aren't department of defense approved whistleblowers just doing pr isn't approved whistleblower a bit of an oxymoron official disclosure kind of in the same way too i would say like there's plenty of data out there you don't need the u.s government to tell you what it might mean so the rating for that one is sadly a 3.6 we haven't really been below a four in a while i get it i'm not upset about it i hope that some people might at least clip and share the good moments in that one that would bring some value to it because steve has been around for a long time but it is what it is you know another thing that we didn't get to talk about but was on my list was that i've heard stephen bassett talk about his background he was a tennis player i believe he was independently wealthy so he had the ability to do this as a volunteer without worrying about money and i believe i've heard him say that his family had been in washington and politics for a long time like since 1920 his family was in politics and so when he went to do this lobbying thing and commit to it he just went to washington and laid up in one of the old family houses now that did strike me as odd i might have misheard but either way just curious i wanted to bring that up but of course we only could get to so many things anyway other than that i'm just doing what i do trying to bring the heat and stay out of the heat but get into the sun and maybe get a steam deck but it's already three-year-old technology and then i'm mad that three-year-old technology is even considered old and then i just throw up and start over all right let's look at the meetup calendar higher side meetups.com anyone can make an event if they want to meet more like-minded locals and support a local business at the same time here we go all right we're into september los angeles california truth or discussion at the trails cafe september 7th on sunday then september 10th coal bitter collective canal street arcade and deli dayton ohio coal bitter collective okay september 15th we got auckland new zealand coming back around gale breath's ale house and that's it just three for the month of september ohio new zealand and la i'd like to see a little more use of the calendar it's out there really just for you guys but you know do what you do i think like-minded locals are important i think there's a good value there in terms of expanding your network and being ready for the difficult times that might be ahead and wanting to lean on people who don't need to be caught up to speed but also it's just cathartic and stress reducing and endorphin releasing and amygdala shrinking to get together with people who see the world similarly to you do or at least you can say damn did you hear that last show that was wild so you know hop on there higher side meetups.com make some events give me at least a two-week lead time so i can read it i like to say twice usually in any two-week period you should have two episodes so i throw it out here and then people will show up great well thanks for listening thank you plus people for keeping me in the game and thanks to mark as well reach out to him and give him the old attaboy if you had a good time take care of you and yours i've done my part your move big harma paradigm crafters heliocentrism hallucinators and deceptive sorcerers of the scientific arts your fucking move once i found a smoke and you saw it once someone returned my money but it's stolen my twice i was but i didn't get shy a cup that's always bone dry you can still make out this what goes deeper than greed broke a mirror right before the best seven years of my life across the street and look both ways and i'm still gonna die the flags fly at half mast whenever it's my birth i notice when you you can still make out how this what goes deeper than greed how can it be too deep i don't like to cause confusion if you know what i mean i've seen the sun shine brightest on the darkest of days a rich man once told me that's when the best deals are made you can still make out the web when the spider's not scene you can connect the dots just draw some lines in between when you can smell the higher side chats verse the machine you're still here i thought we were done well there you have it another great entry into the deep and robust thc archive that goes back over 15 years at this point peruse it all at the higher side chats.com and take advantage and now that that interview is over and we're winding down i can talk to you a bit more casually about what it is we do here because again you just heard or watched the first hour of a two-hour interview on a show that has gone to great lengths to stay outside of the ad sponsor monetization model and instead opted to maintain true independence through subscriptions only over time i've done a lot to improve the plus member experience and tried to keep convenience and quality of life in mind which many paid offerings sadly do not do but let's talk about some of the details that tend to be on people's mind when they consider making the leap so if you are someone who just listens to the audio as the show has been for many years we have the same long-running thc plus subscription for eight bucks a month five new shows a month and the full archive no seasons or breaking it up in weird sketchy ways we have a great on-site player with all the bells and whistles you can download full episodes and listen offline and there is a lively comment section and a five-star rating system on each episode page so i can see what plus members tend to like best we also found a way around the annoying need to put in your username and password when using the private rss feed in many of the podcasting apps now we have your subscription data built right into the link on the my account page just copy it and paste it in pretty much any podcasting app and you are done if it ever freezes up on you or stops loading or anything you can even regenerate yourself a new url on the same my account page it's an upgrade that truly does make it much easier than it used to be and we even take it one step further when you first sign up for a membership we send you a welcome email that includes that link again you just copy it paste it boom you're in and i know accessing the main show in an ongoing way is really just the only thing 90 of plus members want but if you do get into the website you will find some old bonus episodes and live events on the bonus content page the old cover songs i used to close the show out with as well as some of the new ones i've made recently and you also get a lifetime forum membership where we have all sorts of interesting categories and threads including the best place to get a guest request to me people ask me about that pretty regularly but how could i not put added weight to plus member recommendations so there you go hint hint now in june of 2025 i made the big leap to video it seemed like that's what a growing number of people wanted but the fear was over being able to deliver episodes in video conveniently behind a paywall because it's a lot more challenging than it is with just audio though we did figure it out although streaming video does have a lot of extra cost to it go figure and that is why we added the new tier of thc plus tv for people who want that video without changing the price for those who don't really care so for 12 bucks a month you can get the full shows in video with captions and a nice word search and all the features of the audio player as well as android and apple casting from your phone to tv that's nice i also sweetened the 12 tier with one other important feature that has ongoing cost to keep updated and that's a clip genie archive of all thc episodes going back to the beginning and what clip genie does is allow you to search by any word and be served up all the transcripts of all the episodes that have included that word and a clickable link to start the episode right at that point in the show it's very slick people have asked for transcripts for a long time because episodes are so information dense and this was a way for me to not only provide that but make them all searchable with a system that provides everything a person could want for finding exactly what they're looking for with the hundreds of episodes there are all right so if you think i'm good at what i do and you appreciate the extra effort i make to try to come prepared and lead our guests through the most compelling parts of their work i'm not asking for a handout i'm asking for you to get twice as much of the content you already like for eight bucks or 12 bucks a month i've used this analogy before but we tip eight dollars for all sorts of services these days without even thinking about it especially in this new world of the dumb tablet checkouts where they pre-highlight 20 percent and make you feel bad for switching it to anything else and when you tip eight dollars because someone brought you a sandwich from the back nobody brings you a second sandwich i know ad supported podcasting makes it seem like it should all be free but independence is worth something especially in this counterculture field and there's no way to make a viable career out of it otherwise some people will say well what about value for value but i tried that first and big donations came with aggressive guest suggestions and that just doesn't work for our type of format though it may work for other formats either way the subscription model has not let me down in 15 years and i thank those who sign up and i hope more people do i try to make it worth it as for the typical questions i get that might help you decide or speed up your onboarding usually i get where is the second hour because unlike other shows i don't split each episode into two files because i find that to be inconvenient you've gotta find the other one and then load that up and it stops in the middle and you might have to hear two introductions and two wrap-ups it's a little bit clunky but no plus members get the full two-hour conversation just as it was had in a single file i always ask for the promo stuff last so i cut right before that and splice it on to the first hour and that is how the free hour is made and i just strip out the rest so it still sounds pretty whole for free hour listeners as you just heard and i do prefer it that way and when you're logged into the website all the shows magically switch over to the plus shows so it's seamless and that seamlessness has caused confusion before but just look at the show length if you're unsure and know that you cannot be logged in and be seeing the free first hour episodes trust me i spared no expense they call me the john hammond of conspiracy podcasting i don't say that other people say that so yes if you just signed up and you want to go back and listen to older episodes you do have to skip ahead about 50 minutes to hear the new content but once you are a member you'll be much happier with the full show in a single file and not maintaining two feeds and jumping from file to file just to hear one interview another common question i get asked is if plus members have to listen through the website and of course the answer is no we have that custom tokenized rss link that works with many of the podcasting apps and the site is built to have some nice tools included to make it easier and more fun to listen but it's not necessary spotify is the only weird one to get plus on spotify you must sign up through patreon because they have a corporate partnership together honestly we know how the game is played i don't have to go too deep into it here but yes major corporations have taken over the internet they get everyone reliant on a handful of convenient platforms and then they push out the controversial content even though i try to stay integrated for your convenience as much as i can but some of that stuff can change at any time and that is why i always prioritize and maintain my own independent website but that's it really i don't want to front load the show with too heavy of a pitch because then it sounds like an ad when i like to say we're ad free sponsorship free and independent is a little more accurate but because the video is complicated some things it just seemed best to run through all of it and slap it at the very end of these episodes so your questions and concerns could be answered and hopefully i've convinced you that it's worth it sign up at the higher side chats.com or write in the show notes or the episode description again we send you that welcome email with the private tokenized rss link right there so you never have to log into the website if you don't want to and if you sign up for video we are going to be sending the new episode notifications there too where you click the link and it logs you in automatically and you're right there to stream it so i'm doing what i can help me help you double your pleasure double your fun and get twice as much with thc plus and that's all there is there isn't any more so you so you you