Music and Mysticism with Matthew Ingram (4K Reboot)

Summary

Psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove talks with music historian Matthew Ingram, author of 'Retreat: How the Counterculture Invented Wellness,' about how Eastern mysticism and altered states shaped popular music from the blues through punk. They trace links from Robert Johnson's crossroads legend and Nada yoga to John Coltrane's 'A Love Supreme,' gurus of the 1960s rock scene, and musicians who felt they were receiving music from beyond themselves. The conversation also covers the darker side of the counterculture, including Altamont, Charles Manson, and the violent teaching methods of Zen.

Key takeaways

• 1Ingram argues the devil in Robert Johnson's soul-selling legend may be closer to earth spirituality or a fierce protector deity like Tibet's Mahakala than to the Christian Satan.
• 2Ingram compares the punk album 'Pink Flag' by Wire to Zen Buddhism's use of violence as a tool for awakening, as described by D.T. Suzuki, including the story of a master cutting off a boy's finger.
• 3Mishlove's cousin, parapsychologist D. Scott Rogo, wrote two volumes called 'NAD' about music heard during out-of-body experiences, linked to the Sanskrit Nada yoga.
• 4Brian Wilson was tormented trying to reproduce sounds from his dreams during the 'Smile' sessions, and Paul McCartney woke with a complete song in his head.
• 5John Coltrane read 'The Gospel of Ramakrishna,' Yogananda's 'Autobiography of a Yogi,' and the Bhagavad Gita, and Alice Coltrane later overdubbed his recordings in a way Ingram likens to seances.
• 6Sri Chinmoy guided Carlos Santana and John McLaughlin, Pete Townshend followed Meher Baba, and Ed Sanders of the Fugs wrote 'The Family' about Charles Manson.

Glossary terms

Source

Transcript excerpt

Robert Johnson. As I recall, there's a famous legend about him selling his soul to the devil in order to create music, and I think that's an interesting theme. Coming from your perspective as someone who's interested in psychic material or studied aware of different traditions of spirituality, something like the devil in that context, he could be seen more as a sort of an earth spirituality. So Joe Johnson, although Johnson was a bad person and not a nice man, I think there are aspects of that that you could see as tapping into eastern ideas or non-western ideas of what spirituality might mean. For instance, friends of mine who I show them pictures of Mahakala, the Tibetan deity, they're like, oh my goodness, this is a demon. This is a devil. No, Mahakala, he's a protector. He's protecting the Dharma. So I think Johnson's turn towards the devil there, I think it's more nuanced than just seeing it within the Christian tradition. Keep watching to learn more. The New Thinking Aloud magazine issue 10 on UFOs and UAP is now ready for free download and you can also order beautiful printed copies. Go to newthinkingaloud.org. New Thinking Aloud is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering Distant Learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body, and spirit. The topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parapsychology and the paranormal. Visit their website at cihs.edu. Book four in the new Thinking Aloud dialogue series is Charles T. Tartt, Seventy Years of Exploring Consciousness and Parapsychology. Now available on Amazon. Thinking Aloud. Conversations on the leading edge of knowledge and discovery with psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove. Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. ...

Excerpt from New Thinking Allowed, Aug 18, 2026. Rights remain with the original creators. Hear the full episode at the source.