Omnibus: The Age of the Whistleblowers - Sands, Gamm, Logan

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Or take advantage of huge savings on Silverados with up to $13,000 off. East Hartford Chevy. Together, let's drive. Unapproved credit. Not all will qualify. Less tax title. 899 dealer conveyance fee. 2999 deal. 24 months. 10,000 miles through GMF. Negative equity refinanced in new loan. Rebates and incentives to dealer. Offers not in combination. Must qualify for lease loyalty or conquest and first responder or military incentive. Agents who are Realtors do more than open doors. They have the ethical expertise, market data, and tools to bring you home. So when looking for a home, look for the R and work with a member of the National Association of Realtors. They're right by you. Hi everyone, and welcome back to That UFO Podcast. My name is Andy, and this is a special omnibus episode for December 2025. The age of disclosure has certainly hit the mainstream, especially in the United States, and is having an impact that some of us hoped it would have. It might not be full-on disclosure as we speak, but it is hitting the press and it is gaining momentum. So great news for Dan Farah and co. for the age of disclosure. But in the last 14 months, I've spoken to some of the whistleblowers. Some of the folks who have come forward who have worked with the UAP taskforce or shared incredible stories. Three of those individuals are now on this omnibus. Sarah Gam, Lenville Logan, and starting off with Jason Sands. They share incredible stories of their time working with the UAP taskforce, what they would see in the servers, what their jobs would be, some of the videos they worked with, and even some of the disagreements they have personally between them around what they're seeing in those videos. And of course, Jason Sands shares his incredible story of meeting what he describes as a sort of bluish-looking alien. All incredible stuff here for you in this omnibus. Big December coming for the podcast. But before we look forward, we're going to take a look back. So thanks for listening to this one, folks. I'm delighted to be joined today by a retired United States Air Force veteran who worked out in Dreamland in the Nevada desert as part of a UFO legacy program. Welcome to the podcast, Mr. Jason Sands. Jay, welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. No, very good to have you on, sir. And would you rather Jay or Jason? What's your preference? Jay is usually what everybody calls me. Yeah, we'll go with Jay then. Let's keep it familiar. Jay, we've got a lot to get through in a short time. I want to start off just giving folks who may have not heard any of your previous interviews yet on a variety of shows you've been on a little bit about your background. So who is Jay Sands? If you can give us a whistle-stop tour of your background and kind of what's brought you here. Sure. Well, I joined the Air Force back in 1985. I was first an airframe repair specialist and cross-trained into Intel. I did a tour of duty in Germany and then I ended up at Nellis Air Force Base. And for three years I worked inside the reverse engineering program that everybody knows runs out of Dreamland out of Groom Lake in Nevada. So I did that for a number of years, kept my mouth shut for a very long time up until 2022. Then I started to have some concerns about some of the things I was seeing in the news concerning some triangular craft that I thought were something I knew about. And it looked like there may be something illegal going on with what they were doing because they were loading people into the back of a craft. So that was one of the reasons I came forward. Plus, I had some other information that I felt needed to be spoken to Congress as well. So they invited me to come out and I gave my testimony. I think David Grush came in right after I did to give his testimony in 2022. I believe it was December. Um, and, uh, that's when I, I started my journey, uh, towards becoming public. I didn't initially want to go public, but, uh, I ran into James Fox by accident and he was, you know, doing a movie and he offered to give me, uh, the opportunity to create what's called a dead man switch, sort of a testimony. So, you know, if somebody tried to do something bad to me that, you know, here's my, here's my story. Um, ended up, there was an accidental leak of my name and into the public and that kind of forced things. And the only thing that prevented me from going public right away was the fact that I had, uh, had a couple of other wickets to go through at the time to finish out my legal, uh, protections before I started speaking publicly. And, um, that's how things rolled out. And so by 2023, I believe it was March 20th, I had my first public speaking, uh, happened on, on X, uh, the X platform. Um, and that's kind of my backstory there. I also want to tell the audience that this is something that's also been part of my family, even since my childhood, I've had some strange experiences as well. And, um, after my time in the program, I've also seen about another four different craft that I can't explain. Uh, some of them I can explain because the, they're the ones that I knew about from inside the program, but other ones I can't because they don't look like anything I've ever, ever seen before. But that's my, my background. So I'm an Air Force guy, been in the program. I also have my own experiences, um, as well as actually meeting a, uh, what I think was an extraterrestrial when I was going to work one day as well. So, um, a lot of people are talking to me now about that. Yeah, there's a lot to get through and I can't do your, your backstory justice. What I will say is folks, if you, if you're looking for a longer form with Jason, he's very graciously giving me an hour of his time today. Um, the Jason Dory podcast you were on, James Fox alongside you, your background is fascinating, can be quite harrowing at times as well, but you go into a lot of great detail on that childhood. So I would recommend folks do go back and listen to that from Jason, um, because it's a, it's a fascinating upbringing. It's not been an easy upbringing, um, but I think it really tells a complete picture of kind of who you are and the kind of, what's kind of made you the person you've become as well. Um, it was, it was really, really good interview and you were very candid, which is always appreciated to listen. Um, but going back to childhood, I do like to ask guests, what was your interest, if any, in UFOs? And if you can touch on any of those kind of early sightings you maybe had, that would be great. Yeah. The, the, my first interest was when I was in California as a 10 year old or thereabouts. Um, that was the first time I actually saw a craft. Um, it looked like a red orb that came down from what it looked like, you know, uh, very high up in the atmosphere, if not outer space. And it was flying straight towards my neighborhood, um, there in San Jose, California, and it actually stopped over my friend Eddie's house at the bottom of the street. And it turned into a white, uh, a flash just before it appeared as a sort of, uh, a drop of mercury, you know, very silvery, very smooth. Um, and my mother was also there when I ran out to the front yard with my dad's binoculars to get a really good look at it. Um, and she saw it actually taking off cause it came out over the street and there was a street lamp in the evening and the street lamp actually shone light down onto the craft as it came out over my friend, Eddie's driveway, um, where the street lamp was. So my mother and I both got a very good look at it when we went outside. Um, and that was the first time that I actually saw something that I didn't know what, what to think of it. And I knew it was a UFO or at least that's what I was screaming. And all the adults that were in the living room, you know, Hey, there's a UFO. I can see one and, uh, all that stuff. So I did have a little bit of interest. I think I bought the, uh, paperback of the, uh, project blue book and also Eric von Daniken's chariots of the gods to try to kind of piece things together. So I read those front to back and, uh, that's what I did and I bought a few other paperbacks and then I kind of, uh, through the teenage years, I dropped it. I'd never read another book about it for quite a long time until I got in the air force and had even more strange experiences occur. So that was where the interest started when I was about 10 years old. So take us through the, the air force. You've had a fascinating career. What were the moments that led you to being introduced to the program? Quote unquote. Well, um, as you know, that was desert shield, desert storm time period as well. Um, so some of the other analysts that are, were right into the program, I actually deployed with them down to central command and we analyzed, uh, the missions and stuff for about a good month or two and, uh, did a lot of good stuff in Tampa Bay there where, where CENTCOM is. And, uh, I think they just noticed that I was a potential good analyst. Uh, they liked the way I worked. They knew that I was very, you know, methodical about how I, I went about my work. Um, and then, uh, about six months into my Nellis, uh, assignment, that's when they approached me and they just said, would you be willing to take a polygraph? Uh, there was no paperwork. It was more like a, you know, just a, you know, pick me, pick me by hand and then verbally asked me to, if I would like to do this kind of work. And I was like, well, yeah, I got no problem taking a polygraph. You know, I got nothing to hide. I didn't do anything bad. Um, so yeah, I'd be willing to do that. And then once I was, uh, passed all the, the, uh, polygraph and everything else, then I got to go fly up into Groom Lake, uh, see the whole facility was given a tour by a tour of the whole installation by the base commander. Um, and that's when the strangeness started as I started, you know, doing my job for him and, uh, the program. And that's when I got exposed to all the, uh, uh, the things that, uh, I brought to the attention of Congress, you know, some of the things that I'd seen and heard that, uh, I was concerned with. So as an analyst, what, what's your job, explain it to me as a complete layman, what was your expertise and what was it about what you were doing that suited you to the program? Sure. The career field I was put into was called a telecommunications monitoring assessment, uh, expert or analyst, uh, is the term for it. And what those people do and what I did and what I was trained to do was to be able to tap into telecommunications systems at, uh, U S bases or DOD owned and leased, uh, equipment, wherever that may be. Um, and that's the only thing I can monitor on. I can't monitor private phones and civilian stuff. This was purely for the air force, purely for the department of defense so that, uh, we would get invited out on two week missions to go to a given organization. Anywhere in the world. And, uh, we would go and check in on all the different phone calls, all the emails, cell phone, whatever, whatever we had technology for. And we went in to look for security flaws or security vulnerabilities. And then we would report back to the commander and his staff, whoever they wanted in the briefing. We would debrief them and say, this is what we found. And then about 90 days after the, the, that two week mission, we would then produce the final report and really go through the fine tooth comb on all of our findings and, uh, give that back to the customers. So that's what I did for a day job. And that's exactly what I did for the program as well. Um, so I was doing the same exact thing, using the same exact equipment. The only difference was that I was read in and all the other people I worked with didn't know what was going on. It was something very hush hush. There was only four of us and one officer that flew cover for us, um, but he was also a scientist. So he could help us out with some of the, the technical aspects and scientific things that we were listening to inside the program, because the program had a lot of, uh, different projects going on in the labs. And we, we didn't know we were smart and we can look up a lot of stuff, but that we needed that scientific kind of mind on the team as well. But that person also was there to also, you know, somebody came looking for me while I was out on one of these missions, he would be there going, Hey, leave Jason alone. He's working for me. I'm not going to tell you what it is. It's classified, but, uh, he'll be back in two weeks. So just leave him alone. And that's the way it went. So everybody would stay off our backs. Um, but that was called red teaming, uh, and that's what I did for pretty much all of my career. And like I said, for that three years there at Nellis, I really, uh, got exposed to a lot of crazy stuff. Some of these, uh, these bases are mythical or legendary now in their status with being incredibly sensitive, obviously, given the nature of what may or may not go on there, not just the, the talk of non-human intelligence, alien craft and whatnot, but other, you know, military hardware that's being developed in these places and getting tested and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. What are the facilities actually like in my head? Have you seen independence day, Jason? Yes. Probably an obvious question, but so in my head, I see them going underground and you walk around and there's alien spacecraft over here. There's, you know, there's massive test tubes over here with alien bodies. I imagine the actual facility doesn't have that sort of sort of room unless you can see otherwise. Well, most of the facilities I was in was above ground. I did get exposed and went to two places where there were tunnels or underground facilities, but I only went there to debrief. And so I was only ushered into like one room, uh, and debriefed. And then, you know, if they were kind enough to show me anything else, then they would do that. But, um, yeah, there are some tunnel systems and underground facilities. The rest of the buildings, pretty standard military installations. I'm guessing secure, but meeting rooms, briefing rooms, laboratories and whatnot, any of the quote unquote good stuff is kept way out of sight, out of mind and very secure. Would that be fair? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because, uh, the way it usually goes is it's a nondescript building. And when you walk in, you have your badge, you know, that gives you access to certain things. The other thing that they have on the security is they have physical security locks, locked doors, cipher locked doors. And if you don't know the combination, you can't even go back in there to see what's behind that door. And so that's a really good way for the program folks to kind of hide because, you know, they're the only ones who are going to know the combinations to those doors. So you can be walking by these doors in these facilities and you not even know that there's something going on there that is part of the reverse engineering program. Can you talk about how you felt the first time you came across something that was potentially of a non-human origin? Obviously, you can't tell us what it was, where it was, but what was that feeling like and how did that change you as a person? Well, um, I was on a mission and we intercepted a few phone calls in this one day in particular when I, the first time when I got exposed to something I couldn't explain. And they were talking about crazy, uh, uh, things like, uh, this laboratory where humans were not allowed in until after these things that, uh, they, they said were tall whites and grays. And that blew my mind. And immediately after I finished recording that particular phone call, um, I looked to the other analysts and I said, what on earth did I just hear? And I held up my, my sheet of paper that I had just did the, you know, content of that phone call on. Um, and immediately they all put on their headsets and plugged into my, my rack, which is what you call it when you have a tap system and you tapped into phones, it's called a rack. So they all plugged in and they listened to it. They had me play it back a few times and they're all just, just as shocked as I was because here it was, we were hearing, you know, humans being referred to as like a separate race of beings being coming and going from a laboratory environment where also these tall whites and grays were coming and going. And the rule, according to these scientists and engineers that were talking in this particular conversation, it sounded like the, the tall whites and grays didn't want to even see the humans at all. And so that led to me to believe that, uh, if, if these are actual other entities or whatever, that these entities are not fully comfortable being in the laboratory environments with the humans. And it also sounded like whatever they were contributing was very limited or controlled. So I would imagine that that would be, uh, something that is, uh, I would tell your audience that, yeah, it's not a free for all technology exchange. It seems to be very managed by whoever these tall whites and grays are. And, uh, they don't like to work with humans either. So it's not just some friendly, Hey, yeah, let's just show you how to build a UFO today. That's not how it goes. And as part of your job, would your superiors expect that anything like that you come across, you do nothing with that information. Do you even pass that on to them? Or is that just, you've heard X, you forget you've heard X, you move on. Yeah. Well, in that particular case, well, there was a few cases like that happened while I was in the program where the lead analyst actually would go to see the commander or the person, the customer that was in charge, either the director, and he would verbally tell them, we just intercepted this. And in most of the cases he would come back and, you know, of the ones that I knew of, uh, he just said, forget, you heard about it. Just, just don't talk about it. We already talked to the boss and he said, just forget about it. He's got it. And, you know, we're going to move on. So you've had a few of those instances you mentioned. What's the first time you personally have a physical incident? Obviously that was auditory. You're hearing it over a call. It's intercepted. Would that be the, the week after the Nellis test range incident? Um, that was a different job. I had a, uh, the other job you do at Nellis is you go and you train the air crews. So that one is, uh, we have a place we call the schoolhouse on the top of Black Mountain. And it's got a lot of antennas and radio, uh, jamming capability. So we were training the air crews on that day, but, uh, that was in desert just, and it was after I was outside the program. So I was just traveling up, up to do my job, uh, to go train the air crews this day. And yeah, we ran into somebody on the side of the road and, uh, the, the previous week, uh, the team that was there, cause we change out teams every two weeks when we're doing one of these exercises, uh, with the air crews. And, uh, I went up to the following week, but the previous week, the, the UFO actually was filmed coming onto the Nellis test range. And that is available to everybody in the public. It's on the internet. It's the Nellis test range UFO incident of 1994. If you search on that, you can find it. It's got a lot of good information there. It's got the video, it's got pictures of Black Mountain and, uh, even has a report and some diagrams that were, that were drawn of the craft itself. Um, but then this following week, uh, apparently this craft was still on the range and I encountered the pilot, um, along with some other, other people in there in the convoy that morning. Um, and apparently these other people that were in the car, they, they may or may not have remembered it, um, or they didn't want to talk about it. But, uh, after the incident, we all had a time crunch because we were already kind of late just talking to this, this person or this entity. And we all knew we had to get to the Black Mountain and set up the equipment and get ready for what we call the first push of the day, which is when the pilots are all ready to go. So they're gassed up and they go and dogfight and learn how to fight in a war, um, and train on that. So we had to get up to Black Mountain and we didn't have, uh, that much time to fix that or to get, to get the equipment warmed up. And that's kind of how it went down in a very short story. Yeah. Well, we'll expand on it slightly because some of the listeners and viewers might not be familiar with what actually happened, Jason. Um, and basically you're, you mentioned you and a couple of your colleagues, you pull up in the car, you see what you believe is a human individual. Why wouldn't you think it's a human individual out there in the range? And just, can you just take us through what happened from that point? You know, um, we, we took off from the borough in up in Beatty, Nevada, which is where our hotel was, um, takes about 45 minutes or longer to get up to Black Mountain from that location. Um, so on this particular day, since the UFO incident had occurred the week before, uh, the video people that had taken, uh, the film of that UFO wanted us to come in and actually view this, uh, craft and, and put, or took down all our names. And some of the people that were there the previous week, you know, they annotated, yes, I saw this already. And yes, thank you for showing me the video kind of a thing. Um, so the whole team during the week that I went up actually put their names down and they all saw the same video. Um, and that's what you'll find out there, uh, on, on the internet, but that video got leaked somehow. And that's how the video got out to the internet. So anyway, uh, that's just another story altogether. So we finished watching the video and some, uh, lady that was sitting in another chair stopped me as I'm going out the door and she, she looked very scared or upset. And then she said, there's a person on the range, don't talk to him, don't talk to him. And I was just like, okay, you know, I didn't know why she was like that. I just, just thought she was being strange or I don't know. But, uh, anyway, we got back in our cars, we started to take off towards quartz mountain, which was the first leg of our journey. And within about a half a mile to a mile after, after we, uh, visited with the video operators, uh, yeah, there's this guy sitting, he's on the North side shoulder of the road. It's all dirt roads out there, by the way, bitter cold, October, winter day, um, really high winds. So it was just one of those days where the cold bites right through you. And, um, this guy is running towards us and kind of like, uh, you could tell he was in distress, or at least I thought he was, and he was running really funny, like he was about ready to fall over. And as we got closer, I could see that he had very pale skin, but there was this blue undertone like he was getting frostbitten or he was going to, you know, dying of hypothermia or something, um, because he had no jacket on, but he had what I saw looked like military uniform, just like mine. And I was thinking, oh crap, this guy's got himself caught out here. He has, he's not wearing the right protection for the cold weather. This guy's dying. And I told the driver, pull over. We need to help this guy. So I start to unbutton my jacket, thinking this guy's, you know, getting ready to pass out or die or something. So I'm trying to get my jacket off to try to warm him up. And I'm, and as we're getting closer, he, we're at the point where the guy's like at the front of the car. So he's really close and we're slowing down. And the guy in the passenger seat says, Hey, you know, he's like, this guy's got no effing ears. And I just was like, good grief, dude. You know, this guy's freaking dying and you're, you're, you're, you're messing with his ears. I'm like thinking to myself, if he's got no ears, you know, it's probably a mutant. But anyway, he, I get out of the car, um, uh, step onto the roadway and I still can't quite see this guy because my door's kind of open and I'm still, you know, kind of holding my jacket, trying to get the liner out because I was going to hand him my liner and keep my outer, outer clothes, outer jacket on. Cause I needed to have something to keep me warm too. So anyway, um, I shut the door and sure enough, the guy's got no ears. And then I look at his eyes and they're like twice as big as, as anybody has ever seen. Uh, the, the eyes came out to about his temples. That's how big they were. So at least two to three times bigger than the humans. And that's when I realized this guy was not from this planet or he was definitely some kind of mutant. And I, I'm really scared at this point. And I look at his ears at some point during that initial looking at him and I could see his ears, you know, if you're, if he's mutated, usually the, the ears are not going to be symmetric. You know, there'll be something different about on each side, but, uh, these look like perfect ears. They were just conformed to his skull and instead of being poking out like ours do, if you can imagine the skin kind of pressing your ear to your, your skull, that's what it looked like. Um, and so, uh, I'm starting to get really scared though, because his eyes look, you know, really big and I'm like, holy crap, you know? Um, and then he starts talking to me and it calms me down because I'm forced to respond. And he's telling me stuff about his, his craft needs repair. He needs some material he calls trintium. And I'm like, I don't know what that is. And I'm like, is this titanium? And he's like, no, it's not titanium. So, uh, anyways, I'm like, well, uh, you know, I'm thinking back on, I just had been out of, you know, taken out of the program earlier that year. And I'm thinking, well, you could see Groom Lake mountain range from where we were. And I pointed to the range and I said, well, you know, you can go over to dreamland. They've got a lot of exotic tech there. Maybe they've got what you're looking for, this metal or this material you're looking for. And, uh, he's like talking to me, but it's in another language. And I understand everything he's saying to me during this entire conversation. So there's a telepathic component where I'm understanding, even though this is not my language. But again, another aspect of the communication. Now, when I asked, ask him to go to, you know, dreamland to go get this material, this wave of emotion of disgust hits me. And it feels like it's my own emotion of disgust. And I had to sit back there and think for a moment there. I'm like, I'm not disgusted. This must be coming from him. So there's this very strong bond of emotion when you're doing this telepathic thing, I think. But, um, anyway, he's like, no, I'm not going to go talk to them. They're murderers and barbarians. And, uh, he's like, no, I'm not going to see them. So, uh, I start to, you know, think of what else could I do to help him out? And I'm like, well, I take college classes down in Las Vegas at the community college. I know a professor that might have a metallurgist friend that could help you. And he didn't, the individual or this person did not say goodbye. He just turns off and heads towards the craft, which his craft, which looks exactly like what's in the film on the internet. And it's just sitting there about 50 yards away on the Northern shoulder of the road, um, resting on the floor of the desert. And he gets in and he takes off. I look over at my friends in the car. They look like they've been zoned out or their mind, their minds are totally blanked out. And then finally, when he's over the roadway, all of my friends start to look normal again. Um, I'm already in the car and I'm like, you know, did you see that? Nobody's, nobody even talks to me and they're like, we got to get to the black mountain. We got to go set up, you know, just shut up. We just, we got to get there. Um, so that's kind of how it went, um, for that entire, uh, encounter. And I can't explain, uh, how I knew what he was saying other than there had to be a telepathic component. I've tried to describe that telepathy to other people as being something like, you know, if I'm forming my words before I even form my words, my brain's already attached to the meaning at a kind of an emotional level. And the emotion occurs just before I speak it, because as you know, you think faster than you speak. Um, so the same thing happens when you're listening, you listen for the words, but your brain picks up on it so quickly, you can't even tell that you're, you've had, you know, some kind of, uh, understanding that was attached to that word. So when I think back to that time, the telepathy part of it, in other words, the understanding of the words came just before he spoke them. So there was that little bit of a delay as he was speaking it. And I could definitely feel there was just that hair's breadth of a second of the understanding coming just before he spoke. So, uh, that's a component of it that, uh, is really, you know, something that people dig around with me and they try to ask me a little bit more about. Um, and that's why I wanted to mention that, but that's pretty much the incident in a nutshell. Um, how long, how long did that whole encounter last? It was a little more than about five, 10 minutes, maybe, uh, not, not very long at all. And during this encounter, how are you processing it? You mentioned you look over towards, you know, uh, Grimlake and are you, are you putting two and two together from your experiences there from the week before with the video that this, this isn't human, this entity needs help with a craft that's non-human. Yeah. Um, because you're doing that, yeah. I handle it really well. Yeah. Is that what you're thinking in your head? Yes. Um, I didn't know exactly why he was wearing a military uniform that came, you know, uh, there's several people in the intelligence community that also heard my story that also theorized what, what might've happened and why he had a damaged craft and all this other thing. And I think the one that best fits the scenario is perhaps he had some kind of an altercation with the security forces out there at Dreamland and, uh, that he, uh, tried to get away and they shot at him and damaged the craft on the way out, um, or something like that. Or he just, you know, had grabbed a craft and was, you know, trying to take off and do his own thing. I don't know what it was, uh, but perhaps the reason he had the military uniform on was because he was actually working with Dreamland people as a worker. Um, and that, that's a possibility there. So those are the only theories that kind of make sense, but there's still parts of it that I'm like, eh, I don't know if that's, that's what happened or not. So we'll, you know, time will tell, I guess. And hopefully if there's other people that remember the incident, cause we did try to look for the people in at least my car. Uh, I found the driver. He didn't want to talk. He ghosted me after I mentioned the incident. Uh, haven't heard back from him since. It's the guy in the passenger seat that said, he's got no ears. Nobody can find that guy seems to have disappeared. And the person that was to my right was a late, a young lady and she's too scared to come forward. Yeah. Cause I'm thinking if you see the, the, the UFO the week before with the, the Nellis video, and I'll put the link in the description. I think a lot of folks, when they see it, will know the footage once they start viewing it, um, is it likely that that craft left the range at all and that week, and it sounds more likely it stayed there with that. Is that what you're thinking is that it wouldn't have gone and came back? No, I actually think, um, he, he was capable of getting off the range because when he left that particular day, um, in his craft, after he talking, talked to me, he went South and he definitely looked like, you know, he, he just kept going straight in a straight line and he could have been just about anywhere, um, with that craft. I mean, it was damaged, but it was still functional. So it wasn't like he couldn't fly the craft. It looked like it had, uh, whatever damage it was, it seemed to have most difficulty gaining altitude, um, because it would go in little stair steps, you know, and not, it wasn't smooth, like when he moved left or right. Um, so he was having trouble with some kind of, you know, you know, controlling the craft one way or the other, either horizontally or vertically. And I think it was vertically that he had trouble with. So I would imagine like in that situation, Jay, I'm guessing you're in a little bit of shock, even though you're kind of, you're, you're handling it well, you're chatting, you're, you're actually giving some pretty good advice, you know, almost like telling someone the local, the local garage is just around the corner, almost like, you know, yeah, you can get a tire around there, but would you handle it differently thinking back? What would you do given a little bit of composure, a little bit of hindsight? Yeah, I think if I had not been so shocked and scared at the time, I probably would have slowed myself down enough to ask him some real questions about who he was. And, and, uh, you know, uh, I probably wouldn't have asked him anything technical about, you know, the craft he was in or anything else. I just want to know who they are kind of like, you know, meeting a friend for the first time. I think that would be much more meaningful than, you know, demanding he give me the technologies of his, his people. Um, I think that's a much more valuable thing for them as well, because I think that's what they, why they're, they're keeping their distance is they don't want to interface with us for some reason. So to me, I think that's where I would, if looking back on it, yeah, I probably would have talked to him about, you know, uh, his people, his culture and, and things like that. But, uh, I didn't do that. I don't think many of us would to be fair in that situation, but had you had instances during your time in the program that may have prepared you for that incident? Oh yeah. Um, I think that, and I'm, I know that, you know, I've been under duress, have to pull my weapon a few times. I know I'm not one of those people that freezes up. I mean, yeah, I get scared, but I don't freeze. Um, I tend to get, you know, serious, you know, and sometimes even angry if I'm put in that situation where I'm, I feel like my life is in danger. Um, and I didn't get pissed in this, this sense, but I was scared. So I was able to keep my faculties, but yeah, I wanted to run at the same time. You know, I was like, I don't like this, you know, I want to get out of this conversation. Um, cause I, I just had, I would, I was just under too much shock with it. You know, just kind of like, maybe if you gave me a second, you know, to, to go back and lean on the car and, and gather my thoughts and calm myself down, maybe I would have reacted a little bit differently and been able to think, you know, oh yeah, I'd rather ask him about his culture at this point, you know? Um, but I, I didn't, he didn't give me any chance to do that. So yeah, I remained kind of in that surprised state of mind. Were there no friends or colleagues afterwards who heard of the incident and were like, you know, and like the, the canteen going like, Jay, what, what happened out there? Did you meet an alien? Did you meet like, was there nothing like that afterwards or was it kind of swept under the carpet? Yeah. I've had friends in the military that I worked with. They're just like, wow, you know, I didn't know, um, all this kind of good stuff, but now they're getting back to me and they're like, wow, you know, some of them are just like loving the story. Other ones that, you know, um, you know, they just can't believe it. Even my wife, you know, she's like, you, you kept this from me. You know, she got kind of pissed. So yeah, it was one of those things where it's kind of a mixed bag, just like it is in the public eye. You got people that are more open-minded and people that are very close-minded and some people that are just downright rude. Um, so yeah, I've experienced the whole gambit from all the people I've known in the military as well. Um, we'll, we'll come back to the telling of the story, I suppose, almost 30 years later, but you mentioned your time in the program had ended about one year before. What happened that that came to an end? Was that just naturally moving on? I had made a mistake. I guess, uh, we'd never really talked about taking family members on any of these missions to these clandestine spots. And usually, um, your weekend is kind of yours. You go do what you want to. And I, I knew that there was a zoo nearby of one of these locations that we were at and it was down in, uh, New Mexico, white sands. And, uh, so I was just going to take my kids out to the zoo over the weekend, but they found out about it and boy, did they flip out. Um, and it was like immediately, you know, they were like, this is it, you know, you really screwed up this time. And I had to, had, had to get kicked out of the program just because I brought my kids to the zoo or wanted to bring my kids to the zoo. Was it a relief to leaving the program? Excuse me? Was that a relief that came with having to leave the program that way? Well, when I thought about it, yeah. Cause I was like seeing how upset they were and I was like, well, crap, you know, I'm not in the freaking army where they got, you know, the army tells you, you know, if I wanted you to have a wife and kids, I'll issue you them. I kind of had to deal with that with my dad cause he was a green beret and I was like, I'm not having any of this. I was relieved. I was like, well, crap, if I can't have a family and be in this program and, uh, do just a gentle thing, like taking my kids to a zoo and they don't have any idea what I'm doing there. You know, I thought there was no problem with that. So yeah, I got a bit offended by that. And I was like, to heck with this program. I don't want anything to do with it either. So I was kind of like, I kept that to myself though. And I just let them do their thing and kick me out of the program. I was like, fine, I'm good with that. How did you live your life during your time in the program and after when you're being exposed to things most of us can still only imagine that you're not in a place to talk about yet, you know, potentially dealing with non-human origin craft entities, materials. You're hearing these conversations that are literally sitting in Hollywood blockbuster movies. You know, how do you then finish a day job and decide what zoo you're taking your kids to even without, you know, that just changing your whole way of viewing the world? Well, it kind of goes back to my childhood. I think I, you know, if people look at some of the, I think the Julian Dory, uh, podcast that I did with him, uh, just last month, um, I, I go over in great detail how, you know, I grew up in a very violent home, but I was an alcoholic and, uh, no, none of my neighbors, none of my friends knew that this was going on even in my house, because when you're in that kind of a survival mode, you just partition off all the craziness and you find a way to survive. Um, and I think that carried through a lot with, with this career move going into the program is that I feel like I kind of use that same skillset to kind of partition off that part of my life and the craziness that was in it and would just go back to normal life and just forget what I, you know, I had heard and what I'd seen and whatever else. So it was one of those things where I think of just, you know, I think other people agree that there's a, you know, a commonality with traumatic childhoods, people that seem to have more strange experiences. Um, and I think maybe that one of the reasons is because those kind of people do learn to partition off parts of their brain and their memory so that they can get by in life, um, and survive these sorts of really traumatic experiences. And I think that's what it is. Yeah, no, I can definitely see that. Are there any elements to working in a program like these UFO legacy programs that maybe people don't quite understand? Folks don't maybe talk about too often that you can touch on. Sure. Um, I'd like to tell everybody in the audience that, you know, 99.9% of the people in the program don't even know what each other are doing. Um, there's great people, I mean, all over the place in that program, very smart, very intelligent, great, innovative, uh, patriot, patriotic. They're all thinking they're doing a great job for the government, but there's this very small percentile of people I think that are to blame for some of the really awful stuff that comes out of, you know, people's telling about how, you know, perhaps some people got murdered. Uh, some people are being, you know, like now I'm going through some really tough time with my clearances, um, and things like this. Um, and yeah, they do mess with you. And I just think that that's something that people need to know is that the majority of the program people are deserving of respect. They're doing things to, uh, help our nation and to building weapon systems to defend our nation here in America. And, um, I think that's something to be, that gives them some credit and I'm not pissed off at anybody. What I'm saying and what I told Congress, uh, was that, you know, these people need a way out if they feel the same way I do, that they've seen something, um, and they need to be able to come forward in a, in a, in whatever way, fashion that they want to. They don't have to be public figures like me. They can do it anonymously if they wish, but there's a way forward for them. And I want to, you know, make sure that everybody understands that these people are kind of like me. They're normal people that have been exposed to very highly strange things and, um, they're deserving of respect, most of them. And that, uh, it's, it's kind of bad and adversarial. I think, um, when we all kind of have that feeling, like either we want to point a finger at Congress in anger, we want to point a finger at the department of defense here in America for, you know, whatever we think they're, I don't, I'm not into that. I've tried to create a common ground and I would love people to know that's kind of what's going to get us through this disclosure is that if we continue to be adversarial and angry and continue to be in this us and them situation where I don't think we're, I think we're going to fail just like we have over the decades, because it seems that that's what has happened over the decades is somebody goes in there, tries to get disclosure, and then it falls flat because they're too adversarial. They've got a chip on their shoulder. And before they know it, people are turning them off going, dude, you're just angry guy. You know, we don't want to, we don't want to listen to this anymore. But if we're friendly, I think that's the better way forward. So I wish the audience would hear that part of what I'm trying to say is that let's try to do this differently. Let's try to find a common ground. Let's try to discuss things, you know, as things are declassified under Representative Luna, who's going out there trying to get things declassified and reviewing the programs. Let's support her by not creating more problems and, you know, creating strife or anger and all this adversarial stuff. Let's bring it forward to a bit more modern day then. You mentioned wheels were already in motion in 2022. I think you said it was, you were having discussions behind closed doors, David Grush. David Grush came into the public eye May 2023. He, he went in front of that hearing that was broadcast live in June of 2023, I think it was. How did you feel seeing David Grush sitting there obviously with David Grush? I was absolutely proud of him. I mean, he was there from day one. He was the one, he was one of the ones that interviewed me before I went to Congress. And I was so proud of him. I mean, we actually talked about going public before he actually did it. And I just said, you know, Dave, I feel like I've got to do something. I've got to go public. I don't see how we can get through this. And he kind of agreed. He said, that's weird. You know, I thought about that last night too. And I said, wow. So we were actually thinking about going public together, but he didn't said, look, Jay, I got all my wickets are already gone through. I've got my pre-publication and everything else that I'm waiting for, but pretty much I'm more prepared to go public than you are right now. Cause he knew that I had another probably years worth of going through all of the different testimonies at Arrow, the inspector general, I had to do my pre-publication request. All these other legal issues were still pending on me, whereas Dave was ready to go. So he said, let me do this. And I said, good. I said, awesome. So, uh, he went forward with, uh, Graves and Fravor. And I loved seeing all three of them. I can't say enough good things about them coming forward like that. And I, I, I dearly love each of them for, uh, everything they've contributed. So, uh, that's how it kind of went with me. So I was very proud of David coming forward. So you mentioned earlier, uh, and I left it out at the time, you said that obviously you were on with James Fox. You were going to be part of, of his documentary, the program. Uh, there was an issue and if folks hadn't seen this online, it wasn't anything malicious. James shared a screenshot, um, of your kind of just over your shoulder, but the clipboard had your name on it. You know, that the famous Hollywood snap, take two boards and just, and James himself does hand on head moment. Doesn't he just, Oh my God, I can't believe I done that because he didn't want your name to be out there for, for multiple reasons at that point. And neither did you. Right. Were you expecting the first time people saw your name or heard your name, or even saw your face potentially was going to be in that documentary? Um, yes. Up until that point, I, what, what had happened was what precipitated him taking video of me in the first place was to do that dead man switch film type thing. And, uh, once my name was on the clapper board or on the clipboard, um, don't really know what the actual technical term for that board is. When that came out, um, it, it, it did kind of force some things, you know, I had to tell my boss at work that, Hey, it looks like my, you know, people are outing my name right now. And I had to tell them the whole thing about me being a whistleblower and they supported me 110%. And I really appreciated that. And, um, so that was kind of an accident and it happened around new year's, I think when the clapper board picture was, was shown. Um, and so that changed the whole landscape of, you know, do I want my face to show? Do I not want my face to show? And, um, at that point, the only thing I had left was my pre-publication to go through. And by March, uh, 8th or excuse me, March early in the month of March, I can't remember exactly, maybe it was the 10th or something, but, um, I got my pre-publication approved. So I'm like, wow, yeah, I've got my, my pre-publication and my name's already being out there. And I was like, well, maybe it's time to talk to the people. And what precipitated that was on the 20th of March. Um, so my intelligence friends that I'd still talk to quite a bit, they're like, Hey, they're talking about you on X on the X platform. And I'm like, really? And so I went to go listen for a while and I'm like, Ooh, they got that wrong. Nope. That's not what happened. And I'm like, Ooh, you know, and I'm like, gosh, this is my story. And it's all going to get fixed when the program movie comes out from James Fox, but it just got under my skin and it'd already been under, under a lot of stress. You know, I was going through all that stuff with, you know, my, my name going public and everything and trying to hold back the tigers that were coming after me. Um, so I just joined the X space and started talking publicly. And I thought I was only going to be in there for like five to 10 minutes and then it ended up being like a five to six hour thing. Um, so that's how it all happened. This is sort of accidental. And just this led to that. I'll, I'll be honest with you. I've, I've talked about this a few times now over the course of the year, whenever this kind of stuff has come up and it seems that you yourself and David Grush were kind of inextricably linked because he came out and here was whistleblower. A here's the guy who's telling us he's interviewed all these witnesses. He's, he's aware of programs, imagery, all that kind of stuff. You were like the next person to kind of come forward that we knew of. Dave seemed to come in a very planned, you know, PR machine type, you know, on, uh, with Ross Coulter, there was an article, there's then the hearing, you go very Gen X almost in a, you say it's almost by accident, but you jump on a Twitter space or X space, which is never great advice for anyone to do. Do you regret that way of coming forward now or are you comfortable? Um, I think at first, yeah, everybody was like, you know, why did you do that? And I'm like, well, it was a kind of spur of the moment thing, but I actually look at it as a blessing now because looking back on it, I'm like, yeah, David's a great person to kind of lead the planned disclosure part of this. And I was going to be part of that with him. But then when I went public, you know, we kind of had a difference, you know, a divergent path there, but I was willing to, at that point, accept what I'd done and thought, well, you know what, it's probably something different from this year. I mean, I mean, cause I was thinking, what am I going to do if I go testify again on Capitol Hill, you know, and it's a public hearing this time, what am I really going to add? You know, what can I add to this? So actually now looking back on it, I see the people are really on fire for the issue. And it seems to really be pushing from the public side, the things that the Congress needs, because, you know, that's what gets them reelected. And if we are, if we all value disclosure and, you know, getting to the bottom of the UAP issue and whether we're alone or not in this universe, I think that's what people really want to hear. And they're going to vote that way, you know? So I think it helps Congress and maybe it gives a little bit more of a push to it. So, yeah, I'm kind of glad I, I, I kind of went a different path and, um, I not, I mean, they've got plenty of people on the plan of disclosure. You know, you've got great names like Gary Nolan, Chris Mellon, you've got, uh, you know, all the other folks that are related to the soul foundation. Um, you know, you, you name it, there's a great people are everywhere. And, um, yeah, I still wholly 110% support them, you know, and I wish them all well. If they ever want somebody like me around, that's fine. If they think I'm too loose of a cannon now because I've gone public and didn't do what they did. Well, I'd say, well, you, you need to be a little more open-minded. I think I did some good things for you too. Maybe it's a different methodology than planned disclosure, but maybe it's all going to turn out okay. In the end, it's what my point is. Yeah, no, that that's fair. And I think I've said a few times now over the, over the months that there seems to be these, you've seen the backlash firsthand of the UFO community. When you say something they're not expecting, or it's almost like this isn't each individual's disclosure. It's not what they expected of a whistleblower coming forward. That's not just yourself. That's David Grush and any whistleblower coming forward. Everyone imagined this process and this scenario differently. Something you said, and I I'm on the fence with this, this idea that, uh, and it's not just yourself, but you said it on Julian Dory and others that the public aren't ready for a lot of the conversation that needs to be had or, or will be had. There's a lot of folks though, Jay, that would argue otherwise and say, well, let the public decide that. How, how do you, can I, how do you? Well, the way I parsed it, I know it's a tough subject, but yes, um, I did try to tell people, honestly, I've always had integrity that if somebody give me a question, I try to answer, answer it. And in a particular space, uh, they just attacked me for it because I'm like, look, I'm not telling you any lies, you know, but they, but because of what I had been through, because going back to when I got kicked out of the program, um, they wanted to put a bullet inside my head and bury me in the desert. Some, somebody wanted that to happen. My friends told me that, and they made me stay in the car while they went and talked to this individual while I was being, uh, kicked out. And I didn't realize it was that serious of an offense that it was worthy of death really, um, to them. So, um, I ended up getting sidelined into this other part of this program where they kind of used me, you know, as fodder, you know, to do some really nasty shit for them. I'm sorry for using that, you know, curse word. It was really nasty. And, um, that's the part that everybody attacked me for. And so here it is, I've already been through the trauma of this really nasty work and they're attacking me and they're the ones who freaking asked me. And I just thought it was just really bad. So, um, the one reason I can't right now tell everybody about it is because every time I go into that part of my life and those memories, it's tough. Yeah. You're, you're talking about, I, I, it took me an entire week to calm down PTSD wise from all the flashbacks, the memories, all the bad stuff I had that I had memories of. Um, and they don't realize how badly they screwed me up mentally by being just rude. It'd have been one thing if they just said, look, I don't believe you. Um, but okay, you know, let's just leave it there. They didn't, that was not good enough for them during that timeframe. They wanted to attack me. They wanted to deride me. They even told me I'm useless as a veteran because, you know, I'm sounding like a crazy man and all veterans should shun me. You know, I just, it just hit me so hard. And that's why I can't keep coming out with this stuff because like I said, um, I can't physically or mentally put up with that right now until I've talked to my doctors and my psychiatrists that I already have, you know, before that incident happened with these people attacking me like that. Um, I've been going to PTSD counseling for a long time and it's taken me quite a while to get through what I've done, but now I'm going into this new phase where I need to get more help if I am going to talk about this openly. Um, and I'm just asking for people to have grace, patience. Um, but there are aspects of this program that quite literally, I think are even worse than what I experienced. Um, quite frankly, I think if, uh, what I got, what I got exposed to, um, is just a small snapshot of what goes on. Uh, yeah, I, I think there's going to be a, you know, a come to Jesus timeframe when the program, if we ever get to the bottom of it, there's going to be those few people that are running this dirty work part of it. Uh, they're going to be called into account. Um, and hopefully I can help out with that. Maybe I could do it on a one, one on one with Congress again or something. Uh, but right now I'm just not ready to do another public beat down like they did to me. Yeah. Jay, listen, I think there's, there's far more people will appreciate and support you coming forward, regardless of where they land on how much they believe anyone's story, you know, whether that's yourself, a Grush, an Elizondo, a Mellon, a Nolan, everyone gets, gets it in the neck, but it's not making that it's right. But honestly, there's so many more people that are, that are nice and this topic than otherwise, but we just live in this modern day where keyboard warriors, trolls, it's just, yeah, it's, and like you say, knowing your background and PTSD is so common with veterans as well. Anyone who's been in service to have to go through that. So do you feel the reaction of the community and the public has hindered or helped getting other folks to come forward to maybe in the background watching just now and watching? Oh yeah. Look what happened with Jake Barber. I mean, I knew of him in 2023. I actually went out and go meet him with him and I'm so proud of him that he came forward. And yeah, I don't think that would have ever happened if the, if he hadn't seen some success in going public. I mean, and he chose X as well to do his, you know, first outreach and everything else along with a couple of other platforms. And I'm very proud of what he's doing as well. So yeah, it's helped out in his case. I'm also always, you know, publicly trying to reach out to any other people that are inside the program that have witnessed some bad things that they have a greater responsibility than the program they got right into to, to report anything that they saw as fraud, waste and abuse or crimes, you know, or something illegal that, that, that actually, um, overrides any other NDAs you may have signed or non-disclosure agreements and things like this. And I'm encouraging them that, yeah, you can come forward. You can talk to me, you can talk to the Soul Foundation, you can talk to David Grush, you can talk to Gary Nolan, Chris Mellon, all these great figureheads and we'll help you anonymously come forward and, uh, you know, get, get some peace of mind. Um, and so, yeah, I think that's encouraging. I think that the positive people in the UAP community are also contributing because they're hosting spaces that are very respectful of people, um, such as myself and other people that also have stories to tell and experiences. And the more that I think people see that, the more they're going to realize that this kind of calms the whole thing down. Uh, just like, you know, you get into an altercation, you know, on the street with somebody who just cut you off on the car, the more you talk and get calmed down. That's what we're doing right now in the public. So yeah, there's a big piece of the public eye that I think that's helping whistleblowers right now to see that this is okay to come forward. And you've got lots of people that are already out there in the public that can help you to come forward as well. And you mentioned Skywatchers, a good place to finish off probably because right now I think they are the organization that has the most eyes on it because Jake Barber and co have come out and made some incredible claims of what they hope to do and plan to do essentially being able to summon, let's call them craft. We don't know exactly what these things are. And from there gather data, perform, you know, experiments, do the science on this with the help of government and academia. If they can get involved, what do you think their chances of success are and what they want to do? Well, I guess giving in my mindset on all of this and about disclosure would help. The way I see it, when we're asking Congress to come clean, we're just really trying to get them to admit they've been lying to us about not being alone, you know. And really, that's all we're going to get out of that. Okay. When it comes to researching this, the public probably has more scientists, more engineers, more folks that are willing to do field studies and also have access to money and resources to get some of the materials looked at. So we kind of can organize ourselves and it would be for the people, by the people. So do we need everything from government? It seems like, you know, every time there's, you know, something that the government takes off on, you know, within the first few weeks or a month after that, you start not hearing anything back from people. And then you come find out later that they reached a brick wall that they couldn't get through and it just died. Or there, somebody briefed them and said, yeah, this UFO thing, oh, let me tell you about this. And that's why we can't talk about it. And those are all realities of it. So that's the way I see it though. It's just, if you look through my eyes, I see disclosure as being, yes, it's good. Maybe we can get some stuff declassified. I think the one thing I would love to see that I know the Congress can help out with and also the public is that we're not alone. That's totally unclassified. That's a right for every man, woman and child on the face of the earth to decide for themselves whether we're alone or not. And I think that's something that the government can at least admit that they can keep everything else classified. But just admit, we're not alone, that you know that there are other beings here. And then if they want to show themselves, that's actually on the beings themselves. You know, you can't force them to come out and say, hey, you land your UFO on my lawn. I want you to prove to me your existence today. Well, that's not going to happen unless they want that to happen. So those are the kind of things that I think I've gotten a lot more, you know, kind of, I've been through those conversations so many times now that that's where my mindset is on it. So I think we're perfectly capable in the public domain to kind of take care of some of this ourselves. I mean, take a look at the Vegas UFO incident, you know, that fell in that guy's backyard. And they said there was these eight or nine foot tall beings that came out, but it was this craft. Heck, you know, if we had prepared and gotten the word out to all these UAP enthusiasts, you know, maybe we could have had a team there in, you know, in Vegas to go and look at it and actually make first contact for ourselves and record the whole thing because they were prepared and trained to do so. And they were actually there first. The police were there first as well. It wasn't the military or anything else. So we could have had a great opportunity to have, you know, blown this whole thing wide open just without one event. And I'm sure there's going to be more. So maybe that's going to be something we talk about. And the public needs to be aware of is maybe it's just our awareness that you do make a difference. And yeah, you might be the first one on the scene. Do you know what to do if that happens? You know, and that's what we have to ask ourselves. And, you know, do you have the right kind of phone? Is it set up to record the time, the location, the date? And then I've got a friend, Logan. He's got Phenom as his application. And it records the height, the altitude and everything else along with it. You know, and these are all great data points to have recorded right then as something is happening. You know, so these are all things that I think the public really needs to be aware of. And I think that feeds also into my mindset that, you know, that we can do this on our own. Or at least we can start trying. And I think we might actually have some success. On today's show by an astrophysicist who worked as an intelligence analyst for among several organizations, the UAP Task Force. I'd love to welcome to the podcast, Sarah Gamm. Sarah, welcome. Hi, thank you so much for having me here. Good to meet you. It's good to have you on. I was going to start off with a bigger introduction. You've got a lot of academic achievements behind you, a lot of organizations you've worked for in what seems a relatively short space of time as well. So I thought I'm going to leave that to you, Sarah. And if we can kick off, first off, we've got a whole load of places to go with this podcast, Sarah. And I was just saying to you before we hit record, it's going to go all over. So we've got a lot of bases to cover. So I think this is one that no matter what you are interested in with the UFO topic, there's going to be something for you here. So buckle up, folks, as some folks like to say. But Sarah, if you want to kick off your background, can you take us through your kind of academic history and some of that work history as to kind of what's brought you to this point? Yeah, it is a curvy road. So yes, buckle up. I first started out doing, I initially wanted to be an astronomer. And so I started going to undergrad for that, for to be an astronomer and potentially even join the military one day, because they have a really, a few of our military branches here in the US have good astronomy programs, and you could be an astronaut through some of them. So I through through my undergrad, I went to Missouri State University when I first started going there was Southwest Missouri State. And I would grab that the name changed before I graduated. But I ended up falling in love with physics, because it was a physics based major. And I was going to transfer school. So I ended up falling in love with physics more astronomy is a lot of theoretical work and guesswork. And I fell in love with, you know, having the answer is number five. And physics is a part of astronomy, it is astronomy. So I ended up doing both, I ended up not transferring schools and loved my professors love my education. So I graduated on paper, it is a physics degree. But in reality, it is astrophysics. It's just legal things that the department can't have astrophysics as an actual, you know, on the paper. I am actually on the advisory board for the physics department I graduated from, we just had our annual meeting last week, that I unfortunately couldn't attend because of work. And so after that, I ended up moving out to Washington, DC area and got, you know, my first touch into the intelligence community. I happened to be a part of a place that was more like a family. And it was a lot of undergrads that said, I mean, a lot of people that had just graduated undergrads. That didn't make sense. People that had just graduated undergrad school, and we were all young and didn't have family nearby. And so we became each other's family. And that just is kind of blossomed into me leaving the area at one point and then coming back. So I've stayed in the Intel community pretty much every year of my career. I mostly supported NRO or NGA. And right now I'm actually directly supporting the Air Force, the Pentagon. Yeah, I don't know how much much detail, but ended up finding a love with SAR imagery, synthetic aperture radar, along this crazy journey route that I've had in my, you know, kind of still early on career. And SAR imagery is, it's an active sensor. So it sends and receives signals from the sensor itself. So instead of being a passive sensor, like our cameras on our cell phones, that's just receiving photons, this sends and receives energy pulses. And so it's kind of like sonar on a boat. And not many people like to look at the data, because it is kind of hard to interpret. But there's a lot of math and science and physics behind it. So yeah, what's not to love about it? And it's, it ended up bringing me to an amazing project, a couple of projects when I worked at NGA and got a lot of exposure in the Intel world from that and a lot of very good life lessons and mission that I never thought I would ever be a part of. And then that led me to the research directorate. And I got to do really more cool things and, and still worked with SAR imagery in a way, but I worked with bi-static. So that's send and receive from two different sensors. And yeah, so I've basically been a nerd my whole life is I'm realizing I'm saying a lot of odd things that people might not know what they mean. But I still like looking up at the stars and still, you know, tried to go out and watch the meteor shower last night, but I failed because I got tired and lazy. So I guess that's a roundabout way of saying, yes, this has been a curvy road, but now I'm somehow at the Pentagon supporting the Air Force. And we'll pick that apart. So thank you for doing that, because a couple of seconds and then introduction wouldn't have done it justice. Really important, though, before we get to some of those acronyms like the NGA and what that is. You were a big X-Files fan growing up. I've heard you say. So what was, what was the interest in UFOs and that sort of stuff early on? Oh, I think it wasn't just UFOs. It was everything in general. They covered, I mean, they didn't just cover aliens, they covered, which I didn't realize at the time was cryptids and, and all the things. And you had Mulder, who embraced the world and loved everything about it and knew that the truth was there. And, and then you had Scully, who was the scientist. So I feel like I have both of those inside of me, always at battle with each other. Yeah, it was everything in general. And I think a little bit more of my love for it started because I'm, I'm the youngest in my family and, and my brothers both liked it as well. So I always wanted to do everything that they did and, you know, play with, you know, He-Man toys and GI Joes and stuff. So I think they might have also had a slight influence on it. But yeah, I even had an undergrad in my dorm rooms. I always had a poster. I moved room to room with me. That's a, that was the, I want to believe. The classic. And listen, I think given what we're going to talk about, Mulder and Scully would have been proud of you, um, taking, taking those lessons through life and, um, living the dream, I suppose, uh, as to what they wanted to do. So you mentioned the NGA and I'm going to ask you if I jump about or got the timelines wrong here, keep me right, Sarah. Um, but I want you doing most of the talking anyway. You mentioned the NGA, that's the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. If folks are familiar with the acronym, then that would be the same agency. David Grush was a part of, who many folks will know from last year. I don't believe you worked with David Doe. You just, your, your ships never crossed, did they? Correct. Yes. Our ships never crossed. Um, would, was that your first sort of major role? Um, you mentioned, is it SAR imagery you're saying? Yeah, SAR. Yeah. Yeah. And was that the first major role that incorporated that? Um, into the task force or, well, was this NGA was before the task force, wasn't it? Um, I worked at NGA while I was on the task force. So I was a part of, I started at NGA many years before the task force, um, was a thing. So I, I has already, I'm trying to do quick math. I think, I can't remember when I started, I think it was 2013. So about six years, I was already at NGA before I got on the task force. This, this makes the point of something I'm going to get to then. Cause it's something that's confused me over the last couple of years with the whole task force and what it is. But before then, what was your, your regular day-to-day tasks then as part of the NGA? Because just, it sounds really cool and really geeky and you're talking about imagery. So I think in my mind, and this is absolutely not what it is, but if folks remember like enemy of, enemy of the state, the Will Smith and Gene Hackman movie, which I am sure was maybe the catalyst for you getting that job, Sarah, you know, you've got these spy satellites in space, taking pictures of your shoelaces on the street. Um, that's not quite what you were doing. Cause it sounds a lot more complex and complicated than that. Yeah. Um, I got to, I got to do a lot of really amazing stuff when I was at NGA. I have had such a fortunate career being in the right place at the right time. I first started supporting a branch, um, that we were working in the Russia Eurasia division. And so I got to see a plethora of things there cause that covered a lot of part of the earth. And then I migrated to the middle East division. So it was the Lovat area. And that was around a time when ISIS was starting their, um, all of their things are in, you know, what was that August of 2014 or 15. Um, and so then I started doing a lot of CJTF OIR support, um, combined joint task force, operation inherent resolve and was helping with, uh, cause our president at the time was Obama and he said, no boots on the ground. And so it was a fight from the air from drone strikes. So I was actively helping with that. And also I got involved with a Mosul dam, which I am so, so proud of. So it is a earthen dam in Iraq that is on just poor soil around it. The geofix, the geology in the area is very poor. So it was a, um, after ISIS left the structure, cause it was actually one of the first airstrikes for operation inherent resolve. Um, so after ISIS was pushed out, um, there was a high probability of the dam was going to breach. And I got to be a part of that. I got to be a part of creating, helping create a new geo and capability that is still being used today. So if those colleagues are watching this, I am sorry. And, um, so it was an amazing time and amazing experience. I spent a lot of time in the middle East that year and helping in many ways, fight terrorism. And, uh, I still talk to a lot of those people now. I, I've never been active duty in the military, but I do understand when people talk about brothers and sisters in arms, I found that. And, um, then I kind of migrated and was supporting as an image analyst, uh, some, uh, Hezbollah issues in Lebanon and Syria. So, um, yeah, some of the news and things that are happening now are very close to my heart and, uh, passion. And so that's been, um, interesting following all the news on that happening right now. Um, so it's been, it's been a very curvy road. And then I ended up in the research directorate and working back on radar imagery and doing by statics, um, which is something that people don't really know about. I mean, even when I got first put on the project, I didn't know if it was a classified term or not. And it turns out it's in textbooks and, and you could go Google it, but I had no idea because I'd never heard of it before. Um, so most of, most of this road is, you know, being safe behind a computer. Well, except when I did spend time in the Middle East, um, and, you know, being, being on just like I am talking with you, just looking at data and images, but, um, you know, we don't always use classified imagery. We also use commercial. And, um, and so a lot of people think like the classified world, so super cool because of enemy of the state, like you said, and it's like, Oh, sometimes it's actually not, you know, super great. We have to use the same thing that you might, if you go to your Google maps and you look at street view or something, you know, it's like, sometimes we, we have to use the same tools as well. The difference being, and I'll get, I've got some questions around this later. You know what you're looking at far better than I do when we look at the same image. Um, that's just given your skills, your background, your academic training, all getting put into practice. And we will certainly get to that. So take us to 2019. You, you officially joined the UAP task force and what I want you to answer around this for me and help me understand this. Was the UAP task force when you join it, your only role and job there? Is that what you're being paid to do or as a sidebar to your, an active role you've got? It was a sidebar. I, it was, I would say, I forget what I said the other day. I think around 15% or something I was allowed to work during the week. I injected myself into the task force. I didn't let my deputy director accept no from me. I gave him like an argumentative essay right on the spot. Cause he was asking one of my colleagues that was more senior than me to be on it. And he was like, I don't have time ask her, look at her. She's excited. She's ready. And, and so, um, that was definitely, I was 2019. I had just graduated from my master's program in countering weapons of mass destruction in July that year, that summer. And I first, uh, I think I was officially on the task force. I want to say late that year, it might've been early in 2020. I forget the timeframe might've been actually January, 2020, but it was either December, you know, 2019 or, or January when I was officially on it, but I had already totally jumped in, you know, didn't care what the water was like or the current. I just did a cannonball right in before that. And I'm right in saying you've found that task force role through working. It's like a SharePoint or chat room where you were basically involved. Can you talk on that first? And then let's get into actually being involved in a task force and what that entailed. Yeah, absolutely. So at one point during that curvy rollercoaster of a career I've had, I supported something that unfortunately is now ended. Uh, but it was the joint collaboration cell and it was based out of an NRO ground station. And it was a 24 seven support created by a person who unfortunately has passed away, but he was under attack in Afghanistan at one point and needed help. And he knew the intelligence community was out there to help. He knew there were 24 seven places, but every time he would try to reach out for help, no one knew how to do it, or, you know, comms were bad or bandwidth was bad. You couldn't download an image or something. And so he created this 24 seven operation cell to support whoever's out there who has access to the systems. And, um, um, so with that came learning how to collaborate and learning skills of collaboration tools. So I had been using a lot of this collaborate, these collaborative spaces for many years and they're on many different systems. So you could access them, um, whether you, you know, you're, you're on, you know, boots on the ground somewhere and need help. You could call in somebody who might have access to a computer or something like that. But, um, so these collaborative tools, you know, like the equivalent to your SharePoint site type thing and, um, chat rooms. And so the chat rooms vary. And yeah, so I, I first went to a chat room and was like, Oh my gosh, I, I, I just read this report. I have this degree. And the report was, uh, I don't believe it was fresh. Um, cause sometimes, you know, things come months later across your plate, right. Or maybe even sometimes years prior. And so I was reading a report about a nuclear missile site with these unidentified objects that were flying around it and interacting with something. And so I, so put me in, I have, I have this astrophysics degree. I have this WMD degree. I am here to help. And so that's how I, I jumped in and we started, um, first kind of getting to know each other. It was a lot of similar minded people of basically, it was just curiosity and knowing that, um, it may or may not be from here. We didn't care. We just wanted to help. Now I'm in my head, chat rooms to me, take me back to 1999 and AOL. Okay. So, you know, ASL, do you have a webcam? Where are you from? Hi, you know, uh, sharing random stuff with, with strangers online. Um, the internet was a very different place back then as it is now. Where is all this going? So you've got these random folks who all work for similar organizations and doing those kinds of jobs like you do. So you're not talking to complete strangers in that sense, but if you've got files, for example, I'm guessing someone drops in a particular picture or video file of something unknown and you all use your various expertise to try and work out what that is. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. And I, because of having that collaborative background, I also had a wide network of people I could ask of like, Hey, do you know so-and-so that's in, I'm making this up, cutter or something. And I'm probably saying that wrong. I'm from Missouri. Sorry, y'all. Um, but you know, we might know somebody, Oh yeah, I know somebody at that base or they might've had eyes on whatever, you know, the situation was. So I'm also the person that knows I'm not going to be the smartest in the room and that there's always somebody I could learn from. So I don't hesitate to say, I don't know this, but I know somebody who might, and I'll reach out to them. So it was kind of that similar manner of a lot of us had that same mentality that we would reach out to others and like, Oh, I, you know what, I do know a person. And so, um, but that's also kind of what a task force is, right? It's a blend of all the things and all the people and diversity and you all work together and then come up with a solution. Um, so it was, it was amazing to be a part of such collaboration. And I don't believe at, well, before I was officially on the task force, uh, the stuff that I was helping with, no one had that as their main day job either. We were all helping on the side. Um, yeah, I think that's it. Yeah, no, that's, that's good. And to, to what end and where is that information going? So if Sarah and John and Alan and Neil and Jenny all come together and work out something as prosaic or exotic, we'll call it for now, where does that go and what's getting done with it? Um, so, well, that's a good question. We would kind of just chalk it up to, you know, okay, we've did X amount of time researching this. We've talked to people that might've, you know, seen it with our eyeballs or been an operator behind the camera or whatever, and, um, came to a conclusion that let's say it's not, um, identified. So being an unidentified or UAP unidentified or a phenomenon, it was not necessarily meaning it was an NHI behind it. It was just, we didn't know how to unidentify it. Oh my gosh. We didn't know how to identify it. And so deemed it as unidentified because of like, that could still be maybe an adversarial aircraft. So we would push it back saying, we don't know what's behind this. And then we, you know, reported up to our lead and he would do whatever he wanted with it. Did that work or role change or how did it change? That was a lot of rambling. No, it was totally fine. It was totally fine. Um, did that role then change or how did it change when you officially joined the task force for that year or was it much the same? It's much the same. Yeah. So, uh, there were a few things that I started doing with the NGA leagues. I did, I want to remind people I supported the task force from a very narrow corner of, um, the broader perspective of it. So I only looked at imagery or videos and was, uh, very, um, narrowly, um, I guess, you know, from a narrow perspective of it, because there is a much bigger, like I wasn't ready to be any special programs. And, um, I, I stuck to what I looked at and I was happy to be a part of the team on, on what I was able to see and the meetings I was a part of. Um, we were starting to do some, uh, experiments. We were, I was, uh, yeah, coordinating to be, I don't know if I love leads the right word, but I was starting to coordinate with some other externals with NGA to try to prove or disprove of something that was happening. And then the COVID shutdown happened. So that all got derailed. Um, but yeah, so I would just report stuff to the lead and he would take it from there. Just for a moment, I'm going to bring you forward about three years then to, to last July. Did you see the hearings when David Grush was speaking in front of Congress? And I wonder then given what your role was and what David Grush was doing. And when this guy sits there and says non-human biologics, crashed craft, ET, extra interdimensional, whatever the phrasing was, what's going through your head when you hear all that? Um, pride. I mean, I, I was glued to watching. I was actually sitting at home on YouTube and was just so proud. He did such a great job. All the, all the men did. They did so wonderful. I was so proud. And, um, you know, I wasn't surprised. I mean, I've always known my undergrad, I, you know, do an astrophysics. I've always known we're never alone. You know, there's infinite amount of space. Why, why can't there be thousands of civilizations out there? I mean, there's, we're so diverse here on earth. Why can't that be in space? So, I mean, I really wasn't surprised by at all, but I also have been a part of the community for a few years at that point, um, from last summer. So I, I have met people and know some things by now. So I also knew it wasn't a surprise from what others have told me. How closely had you followed the UFO story? So working in the task force, working on the, on the kind of chat room side of things beforehand, which I'm sure is completely underselling what it was to call it a chat room, but we'll call it a chat room for now. And then being on the task force, how close is Sarah Gam to the UFO story and what's happening outside of, of work and professional life? Um, I actually really appreciate that question. So I kept it pretty segregated because I still had a passion for the UFO stuff, but I was behind a closed wall and a very thick brick wall. And so I kept things very, um, separate. And then eventually that separateness whenever I do plan, you know, happy hours and gatherings and stuff. So a few of us would get together the ones that we all lived near each other. Um, and things started kind of bleeding into my life. I mean, how could it not? I love it. I've loved X-Files my whole life. So, um, when things started bleeding together, I still tried to keep things separate because there was a lot, uh, as the topic grew and more, you know, era OD and I released a paper that arrow released some papers, um, more people got curious and would join chat rooms. And so it got more difficult to have that passion because just as some people will be commenting on this, um, um, I had that in the classified space as well. So, uh, that passion started kind of fizzling a little bit off and on over the past few years, because people are, people are genuinely, um, curious, but also they're starting to treat what they're typing in words on a comment on something as the person that might read it doesn't have feelings or a soul. And so it, things have, things have been segregated for a bit again at one point. And, um, so I stopped reading a lot of UFO type books and I stopped reading, uh, into a lot of things. And then somehow that's when James Fox found me and asked me to be in his film. So I guess all my, all my thoughts of stopping and ending, um, didn't quite work out. The universe had other plans. And we will come back to that, the James Fox stuff as well. We'll try and keep it to some kind of timeline as best I can. And when you talk about the trolls and the bad comments, I had my worst one a few days ago, Sarah, ever in four and a half years ago of doing this show where someone commented, they found I was hard to take serious because I wore a hoodie and that I had bad hair and the hair comment was the most offensive Sarah I've ever had anyone say to me online. They can call me names and stuff that never bothers me, but I thought my hair looked okay. So, um, if, if they're watching, thanks Sarah and yours. So if you're watching or listening to this... You should have warned me, I wouldn't have put my face on or done anything. We could have, you know... Listen, you're going to get all the abuse under the sun, but hey ho, welcome to the UFO world. And like you said to me previously, you're thick skinned and not that it excuses it, but that this is life. And it's interesting. You say you found it was a similar tone for folks in the chat rooms. And would that be across the task force work as well, that you had people who were really passionate and interested in UFOs, maybe from childhood or, or through experiences to folks who are involved, but really wanted to prove this was nonsense or look down on it. Was that the case? Um, task force days, I didn't really get a lot of blowback from people. And if I did, I would start, you know, making light of the situation, talking about X files. And, um, but I also, I knew how to approach, I've worked at NGA for a long time. So if I wanted to tap work with, um, so we have a directorate that will task the images. And so I would work with them and I knew a lot of them already. So they knew who I was. They knew I was serious. They knew I was usually fighting terrorists. And, um, so I wouldn't come to them with just fluff or waste their time. So I already had a good established relationship with a lot of the people that I worked with. Um, a few that did end up being like, you serious. And I'm like, well, Mulder sisters still out there. So I would, I would end up making jokes, but I never really got much pushback until it became a more popular topic and more people started getting, and it wasn't even pushed back. It was, um, we had certain rules that we needed to follow. It's, it's a government monitored system. And, um, so there were some major rules that were starting to be unfollowed, not followed and broken and, you know, unauthorized disclosure started happening more frequently. And, um, it was just, uh, it was very disheartening to go through some things that I did. Um, and not just me others as well. So there was a few of us, um, that were trying to keep people in check to make sure no, you know, laws were being violated for being on a government monitored system. Um, and they didn't like that. I'm going to caveat the next set of questions, Sarah, with, um, mentioning to folks, you have a security clearance, don't you? Yes, I do. Okay. So, uh, there's going to be some questions here that I've done my very best to get as much of an answer from you as possible, because this is the inevitable bit where Sarah says, I can't discuss that potentially, but let's, let's see where we can go. So I wonder Sarah, you're deep breath. I'm ready. Yeah. Big breath. You've, you're, you've got the chat room, uh, you've got videos and imagery being shared. I'm sure data within that as well. You've got your time in the task force. Do you remember maybe the first time you had some data, be it, you know, numbers on a sheet of paper, which a geek like you would love, you know, someone like myself wouldn't understand, but you're a self-professed geek or a picture or a video that you really had to sit back and go, wow, wait a minute, this is something a bit different. Do you remember that moment? And maybe I'm not asking about what it was, but what was it like? Um, it was disbelief and, uh, kind of takes your breath away. I mean, I've seen what I thought was a UFO in person and you just stare at it and you're like, is that, did I know? And you know, there, my, my first thought isn't to get my cell phone out, to take a video of what I'm seeing. It's to breathe. And that was kind of a similar moment of, um, okay, rewind. I need to watch this again. Okay. Yep. Yep. Hit play and, and pause and zoom in and my brain's playing tricks on me. No, that has to be a balloon and, and start second guessing and going through the Rolodex in my brain of what else it could be and watching it again. And then chatting with another person, you know, my, my colleague who was very science based. And, um, so I'm like, um, can you just take a quick gander at this? I don't, uh, I just want to make sure before I say something to somebody else and he'd take a look and be like, what was that? Like, okay, that's all I needed. And, um, yeah, it was a very memorable experience. I'm going to say my first reaction was to, to remind myself to breathe again, because it's just, you know, a moment that catches your breath and, um, and then rewatch it and rewatch it again and then send it to somebody else and read, read up on who I could reach out to who might've submitted it or, or whatever. So safe to say then it's a video. Um, and is it, is that video in the public domain? No. Okay. Um, the rest of that day, how does that affect you? Because I think this is something that most folks can't appreciate. I probably don't either, but when someone works doing the job you do or a David Grush or a Louis Elizondo or any other countless number of folks involved in the kind of work we're talking about here, essentially looking at UFO data. I don't think they maybe realize that at the end of the day, they clock out, they finished their shift and they have to go home. So that day you'll have, you'll have traveled home and you'll have sat down and you'll have put the TV on. Is that not a world changing moment to, to really have that sort of information in your head now? I've never thought of that. I think, um, because of my spiritual world, some of this isn't a surprise. So when I go home, it's like, maybe I just need to meditate and sit, sit with myself in some silence for a little bit. But, uh, yeah, I don't, I don't recall going home and having this moment of momentous moment because being a spiritual person and seeing the other side that I guess maybe it just wasn't that big of a surprise to me because I've always known we weren't alone, but I do remember driving home and being like, I wish I could call somebody. This is so cool. And, and of course not being able to. So, um, yeah, meditation it was. That's fair enough. Do you not get friends asking at parties after a few drinks? Sarah, what have you seen? What's it like? And Definitely. I think sometimes, uh, they get more curious, uh, a few people might, but they also know that I can't talk about my work. And so, uh, they don't want to risk me going to jail and, um, they, they know I likely won't survive. Um, but yeah, friends do get curious and I do share what I can, or I might, um, um, you know, share with them some of my spiritual stuff if we, if we get curious enough, but not everybody likes to hear that either. So, um, yeah, they get curious, but they also respect my boundaries. There's definitely some questions that I won't waste your time asking because I know what's going to come back with, you know, you can't discuss. And there are various reasons people like Sarah I can't discuss, including locations, quality of video, um, the sensor systems being used, stuff like that. And that's just because I've had multiple guests on in the past, like Lou Elizondo, you know, people like that who can't discuss that kind of information. So, um, but you have said that you've seen a lot of, of blurry data that we see in the public, you know, blobs and pixelated videos and such. Is it fair to say that when you view those blurry videos and images that you know exactly what other sensor systems either would be useful to look at with them? So in my head, I'm thinking tic-tac, gimbal, go fast. So those are the three, I'm going to call them boring videos, Sarah, because I feel they're boring and prosaic enough. They were allowed to be released. And it seems at this point, we know there is extended footage of at least some of them, which show some more interesting things like maneuverability, maybe clarity, acceleration, stuff like that, that we're not allowed to see because I think even that would make the public go, Oh, but right now, those three videos are out there and the public largely haven't sat up and took notice. So when you're watching tic-tac, gimbal, go fast, are all three of those videos for you and what you know, and your expertise enough to think these are something completely exotic? Or do you still think either of the three could be prosaic? Um, I mean, I trust what's been done before. So I don't like to duplicate effort and to reanalyze because that work was done and it was good work. And a lot of good work was put forth to get it declassified and released to the public. So I don't like looking at something like that all again and again, but yes, there's, there's more data that shows we're not alone to, in my opinion, of course, and a few others. But, um, I do get, I guess, a lot of comments about how people can't believe I haven't talked more about those, but those have already been talked about to me. It's like, let's move on to the fresh stuff and let's move on towards disclosure. Instead of talking about these of they're incredible. So I'm not downplaying what they are. They are incredible, but they work has been done on them. Taxpayer dollars have been paid. And, um, yeah, I'll give an example for you on that. Why some of this stuff isn't released. And as I'm not a U S citizen, but just purely from a UFO conversation, I'd love to see all this stuff released and to hell with national security, but that's not how the real world works. Now I've heard there as a video, which was filmed by like U S military, whatever it may have been at quite a distance, a pretty spectacular distance from a Russian ship. And in observing this ship, they filmed multiple UAP. Now they weren't meant to be where they were. And I think everyone knows at this point, Russia, U S China, every country spies on each other. That's just, you know, that's, that's not a secret, but these UAP were filmed by coincidence. So that footage is meant to be spectacular, but you can't release it. If even if you wanted to, if you were the U S because then it shows you've been spying on Russia. So there are things like that. And I'm not going to ask Sarah to, to even follow up on that because she couldn't if she wanted to, but that kind of stuff. And that, I talked about that with Jeremy Corbell, if anyone wants to go back are sort of some of the reasons that this stuff can't be shown, but I'm guessing would be the type of thing that Sarah, you have potentially seen within your work at the task force. Is that in the ballpark? Yes. Okay. That's fair. What, what sort of percentage of material and data do you look at that you would say without doubt as truly anomalous slash exotic slash NHI? Now that's not to say, I'm sure you've seen some videos, Sarah, where there are objects maneuvering pretty incredibly with weird shapes and sizes, but they are Chinese, Russian, us, et cetera, really, really high tech gadgetry. What percentage of stuff do you see that you would say is truly, you know, the good stuff that we would like to know about? Um, I'd say it is a small percentage because there are a lot of balloons out there and, and other objects that make it seem it's unidentified and the data quality is, isn't the best. Um, man, I would say, uh, I've tried to put a percentage on this before and I, it's really hard because it, it is more of a letdown than anything because it can be described or especially like weather balloons are looking crazier and crazier now and they're up in the ears longer. So, um, Less than 10. I'm trying to, oh yeah, I was going to say 5%. Okay. I think I've gone 5% before in the past and from a place of pure, no knowledge, just speculation. I would imagine a lot of this stuff that gets posted online or has seen are misidentifications or adverse adversarial tech. And I think those shutdowns from February, 2023 showed us that these balloons that are being used, I think it was a Chinese balloon at one point. That's really what you would presume is low tech from what you would expect in 2023, but it seemed to be pretty effective because it seems it had been there and was undetected. And I'm guessing that kind of stuff's been going on. So, um, one thing I would be interested in and knowing as best you can is what sort of spread do you see, or have you seen with the data that objects are either water-based, air-based, or above the atmosphere? Good question. Um, I will say from, I think it's probably because of the data I was looking at, I didn't observe a lot of water stuff. So I, I mean, water was even a smaller percentage of that. I would say there was only like, you know, one, maybe two videos that ended up being something unidentified from water. Um, but I wasn't an expert at Marine things. And so it was not my forte, um, especially looking at SAR imagery, SAR imagery doesn't do the best over, over water and especially massive water areas. So, um, yeah, a lot of, a lot of the other things that you asked, I would say definitely a smaller percentage, but you know, most of what I looked at was, um, land based. So I was looking at terrain and, um, or maybe clouds or, yeah. So that would indicate stuff, clouds would be stuff higher up in the air, but as being caught by imagery, as we would think, um, space-based stuff must be mega sensitive, um, just because of, I'm guessing, the quality of technology and whatnot that may be in, in the air. And we know there are thousands of satellites. Um, Elon Musk seems to be throwing them into space, like they're toys at the minute to him. Um, but I wonder, and this will be a hard one for you to talk on, I'm presuming, but as best you can, and hopefully the question makes sense. Are there differences that you could tell or see from any captured imagery, data or video that would stand out? You would see because it was space-based capture, as opposed to it being in the air or underwater, there were maybe particular traits that you didn't see when something was in the air? Um, I would be able to see depending on the sensor. So I'm going to try to answer this best I can without, um, uh, yeah. So when you, when you, you look at something from a different sensor, it also is a different perspective, right? So physics is about when you solve a problem and you solve a problem from a different perspective, you get a completely different answer. So that's the same thing with your camera angle, right? You get a different sun glint off of, off of an object. Um, so infrared is typically less resolution, but you get a sun angle or you get a heat signature somewhere different than you would in something else. So, um, each, uh, item, uh, each sensor that I was able to look at definitely provided a different layer of validation. Um, sometimes it, you know, depending on the sensor, it's easier to tell something's a balloon or not. Um, like one of my jobs over the years, uh, cause everybody, I'm very open that I'm a part of the UAP community when I start a job is I don't want the stigma or, you know, I'm, I'm very open about it. And so, you know, my office will quickly know that, uh, to come to me if they find anything or if, you know, Oh my, you know, you know, I was out hiking the other night and I saw something, I took a video. Can you look at it? So everybody knows that I'm happy to, to talk to them about all this stuff. So one day I came back from a vacation and they were like, Oh my gosh, we, we have, we captured a UAP and I look at it and the whole office for days thought that this was a UAP. They were certain. And I took a look at it for half a second. And I was like, that's a balloon. So I totally burst of their bubble and I felt bad because I don't like telling somebody when they think they really captured something, but you know, I'm going to look at what the data is. And that was a balloon. I'm like, okay, look at the sun angle and it's glinting and, and look at the moving, it's moving along the wind path. And, um, so yes, it's depending on the sensor, you definitely get different, uh, uh, perspective on what you're looking at. I'm presuming there's not many balloons in space. What would be some of the misidentifications and, and outside the atmosphere? Um, the misidentification is because, so you have, you have an object higher and, you know, then, and looking at an object lower. So you also have earth's rotation. So things might be out of sync a little bit. So that, that becomes like a little bit of parallax, right? So, um, things are moving at a different speed or a different direction than what you think you are because your sensor and the object and then earth are all moving at different, um, times and different velocities. So, um, the, the, the movement, so the movement and even the sun. So the sun might be over here or might be back here where this crazy cat is. And, um, so what the object moves and then the satellite moving, you got all kinds of different physics happening, right? Um, so the sun angle might glint at something, maybe the payload on a balloon a little bit differently. Uh, I hope I answered that properly. Yeah. Um, I wonder, have you ever, and this would probably, I'm guessing be something you would do personally rather than professionally. Have you seen any of the, the kind of NASA shuttle videos on YouTube that are there for everyone to see that show all kinds of weird and wonderful things floating about, which I would presume most of that would be indeed ice crystals, bits of stuff breaking off. But do you ever watch any of those or have seen any of those and think that's pretty interesting? Oh, absolutely. For sure. And I also find it interesting that once in a while the feeds is just magically cut off and goes to something else. Is that not just a technical thing though, Sarah? Let's not be starting conspiracies now. I, yeah, I, I don't know. I am not an operator. I I'm not at NASA, so I'm not going to speak or judge for them, but very, very curious at how a feed might get cut off when somebody goes, what's that? I'll even be fair on that one. It would be very easy for me to go down the full conspiracy route. I don't doubt that now and again, US, Russian, Chinese tech, shall we say, comes into view of space stations or what that, whoever that may be, and isn't meant to be there. But it seems very clear that there are times something else comes into view. Um, I think the tether incident is probably one of the most famous ones on the NASA footage, where there is like a clear size measurement to this poll. And there seems to be things going around. Is that, did you see stuff like that within the task force? And I'm not even going to say that, but stuff like that? I will, I, I don't know how to answer that. So yes and no, because like my science brain, my analytical brain is trying to be, um, subjective or not subjective. Um, I'm overthinking it. So I'm going to say yes and no. Should I be more direct then in the question? Like, would you see videos? I can't even ask that kind of, cause that's not going to be what, what would you like to say around that that you can? Um, you know, about like the, the NASA video? Just that sort of video being what you would be able to look at within your professional capacity or have it passed to you to say, have a look at this and tell us, is this something worth digging into further? Um, well, what I say always when somebody will send me like a snippet of something is, well, is it longer? Do I have more data? Where were you located? Well, where was the light source? If it was nighttime, was there a streetlight nearby? Is it a, you know, a sun flare type thing in your, your camera? So I would ask a lot of questions before jumping to a conclusion. Um, I always like the initial, Oh, that looks so crazy. Okay. But, but where are you looking and, and what time of day is it? And, um, yeah, we're, I just like, I've talked about birds, um, a few times in a few of my interviews, like what kind of season is it? Is it geese flying over? And, um, so I would ask for more data before I would really jump to a conclusion. Very fair. And I think it's good to hear that happens. Cause there's nothing debunking shouldn't be a bad or dirty word people here, you know, it's just finding out the really good stuff from the wheat, from the chaff, you know, and that's something that I think can be missing at times in the UFO topic. Yes. Now, um, many folks are coming out now, Sarah and saying things like zero doubt or no doubt. These objects are not human. I think you yourself have said that on, on multiple interviews, in your opinion, um, what are you seeing exactly? Or have you seen within the confides you can speak of in a professional capacity that has taken you to that determination that some of these objects categorically are not human? So what's brought me to the conclusion to say, we're not alone. Yeah. Is it a couple of particular things or observables or is it just a multitude? Yeah. I, I mean, I, it's always a knowing because of, you know, I mentioned my, my undergrad and knowing that this is infinite amount of space. We, it's impossible for us to be alone. Um, and then seeing multiple things and then doing a lot of research, like a couple of projects that I have been a part of, we would look into so much data and talk, you know, not me. I didn't talk to him, but somebody would reach out and find like a drone operator that might've been working behind, uh, the computer that day that saw something. And we've done a lot of research and it boiled down to, you know, three months of research type thing and many people, a part of the project. And it comes down to, we don't know what this is. We're all scratching our heads. We're like, I don't, I, I don't know. And so by being a part of multiple projects like that and my background and, you know, the astrophysics world, and now of course my spiritual world, um, I, I just, it, it surprises me that some people do think that we are alone. It's literally infinite amount of space. We don't know the end to space itself. Um, how can we be the only ones here? Yeah. So given you still work for the bad guys, quote unquote, you know, the, the government, the shadowy cabals, which are covering this up and the government's a joke. The government's a massive entity of offices and buildings and, and people who do all kinds of jobs from the bottom up. You know, it's, it's difficult to say the government's covering this up, but at this point, what's the best way to say this? Why do you feel, or did you get an impression from the folks you were working with? There's, there is a reason this is being kept secret and undercover, taking aside the national security stuff and the sensitive sensors and whatnot. You believe, Carl Nell believes, you know, uh, David Grush believes, Lou Elizondo and many, many others unequivocally. We are not alone. There is a non-human intelligence either here or visiting here or whatever it may be. Why can't the government at least come out and tell people that or why aren't they, in your opinion? Yeah, my opinion, definitely my opinion. I like stressing that. I, I really think we just buried ourselves because initially, you know, I understand why it might've been a secret and this is, it was, you know, 40s were not an easy time to be on earth with war. And so I get wanting to keep something so profound, a secret. And I really, I do believe it just got buried so deep and some of those people passed away. So they couldn't pass on their knowledge because they weren't allowed to talk about it. And, um, now it's pretty amazing to see how far we've come just since 2017, since the New York Times article came out of the stigma going down. I mean, we have commercial airline pilots taking videos and reporting them and posting them. More, more military reporting things as well. It's so amazing to see the change and not just since, since 2017, just in the past couple of years, um, more people are looking up and that makes, that makes my giant heart even more happy that folks are looking up because, uh, I mean, one, one, the sky is beautiful, but, um, yeah, it's, it's just more of another layer of we're not alone and just to, to keep the open mind. And, um, I don't know where this went to. I'm sorry. No, no, that's fine. I'm going to take you back then, bring you back a couple of years to your, your time with the task force ending officially. Now, am I correct in saying it did still carry on unofficially? You were still helping out and what sort of happened that it ended and, and carried on in that unofficial way? Yeah, I got a new job. So I got a job at ODNI, Office of Director of National Intelligence. And so, um, you, my official capacity on the task force did definitely end, but it was also a part of like the COVID shutdown and folks weren't responding to emails because I, you know, some people might not have been back in the office. And, um, so a lot of things just ended up fizzling out on my end, mostly honestly, because of the COVID shutdown and I got a new job during it basically. So, um, yeah, and then I just was able to support on the sidelines a little bit. And how did the formation of ARROW, so the alternate domain anomaly resolution office change even the unofficial working for you and, and how did you see its whole existence? Um, when it first started, it was weird. Um, they didn't really talk to people from the task force. We offered data. They said, we have our own database. We, we tried working with them, um, you know, looking at some of the papers that they were putting out and didn't take feedback. Um, so it was weird is a good way to describe it. Maybe a nice way to describe it. Um, so a lot of, a lot of turmoil started with distrust and stuff because we weren't, they weren't working with prior people or legacy programs, but I was just one person. Right. So they might've been working with somebody else. Um, I did hear very similar things from others though. Um, including people much higher than me that were on the task force. I, it was very disheartening and, um, I was still hopeful. I think I'm always a hopeful person. That's how I was raised and that's who I am. So I was always hopeful that they were, um, doing their thing behind the scenes behind those brick walls that they formed. Um, and yeah, I think, I think now over time, the, you know, there's a new director there and, um, with new leadership comes a change and every, every new leader has a way of leading and, and operating their office. So, um, I'm excited to see what's to come. I think for many people, Arrow is now operating from such a low bar that they could no longer disappoint and they could only keep expectations as low as they are. You can't keep my laughing. I'm so sorry. No, but it's true, isn't it? They've been so, so disappointing. I suppose, unless you are, well, I'm not going to talk conspiracy, but a lot of folks would believe that they've been put there to to do a, a project blue book 2.0 Susan Goff and folks at the Pentagon wanting to shut down and Arrow was a good way to do it. So maybe they think Kirkpatrick and others did a good job. Maybe they didn't, who knows, but that's the way some folks think. But like you say, new director, let's see what happens if indeed it does go anywhere, but there seems to be a lot of, a lot of progress outside of that, which we'll definitely get to. Um, and just to touch on what is it you're actually doing now? Your role is not related to UAP anymore, is it? Not at all. I'm a nuclear analyst in the Pentagon. Oh, that sounds so boring. Um, yeah, we'll move on from that. Um, but listen, um, what I want to do before we, and this is probably a good point to say, we'll start wrapping up what's going to be part one, because I definitely think before we get to listener questions, we're going to shift the conversation. You've mentioned your spirituality a few times and we've got a conversation that will probably have a shift in tone, but certainly is not unrelated to the UFO topic folks. So, um, just to touch on your own sighting to wrap up this kind of part one, Sarah, do you want to touch on that? You mentioned it earlier and it was only just in the last 12 months, I believe. Is that right? Uh, that would have been June, I think, or maybe, no, I think it was June of 2023. So June of last summer. And just talk us through exactly kind of what happened. It wasn't just you, was it? And it was the Brownhill Mountains? Yeah. Oh, Brown Mountain Lights. You were so close. Good job. Brown Mountain Lights in Linville Gorge in North Carolina. And it is a very well known. So anybody could go out there and search what Brown Mountain Lights are and lots of things will come up. So a handful of us, including some of my family members, we went out one night to go UFO hunting. And how cool is my life? Uh, I was, I was loving going UFO hunting and, um, being in this beautiful, beautiful area. It's so gorgeous there. Um, and then, so we're all like, some people have equipment, they have, you know, night vision and all kinds of really cool stuff. And, uh, you know, maybe some, some whiskey was being passed around as well to keep warm because it got a little chilly. Um, and one of the guys, a stranger that was there, because there was a couple of other strangers, um, other people doing the same thing, having the same idea that we did, because it is a popular area. Um, the, there was one of the strangers and I, we had just met and we were talking with somebody else that I had also just met that day. And we were facing her, like I'm facing the camera and let's say like just above the camera is where she was sitting and a light popped up and we had seen like these lights pop up and we were all got excited and it turned out to be, you know, the flight pattern of, of the airport nearby or it was hikers and you could see their, their headlamps. Um, or maybe even they started a fire or something. So there was a lot of let downs in the evening. And then this light popped up just above the head of the woman that we were chatting with. And I look at him and he has this like very calm presence. And of course we just met, he's a total stranger and I'm like, trying not to freak out. Like, is that, is that, is that, and I don't want to blink cause I don't know if it'll go away. I don't know what it'll do. And I, you know, remind myself to breathe. Um, but it popped up above one of the, um, mountain crests and kind of hovered and then did a little wiggly do thing. And I'm like, that's, that's weird. That's definitely not an aircraft. Uh, that's not, that's not a holding pattern type, you know, a situation for an aircraft. And so it went away, it just disappeared. And I'm looking at the guy. And of course the woman has no idea that we're witnessing this cause it's nighttime. It's hard to see each other. And so she's still talking, not having a clue. We're having an experience and all of a sudden the light comes back and it's just a little bit higher than where it was before. And, um, yeah, so I, it went away very quickly at that point and it wasn't a flare. It's not like, you know, it was, you know, again, the Rolodex is clicking on definitely not a balloon, definitely not this. And, and so I just kind of like appreciated the moment. Like I just saw something and I looked down at the rest of the crew cause they were like down a little bit from where I was and everybody's looking in the opposite direction. And so I was the only one of all of us that evening that ended up seeing that. So that was, that was pretty cool. But I definitely understand when people see something and folks are like, why didn't you take a picture? And I'm like, I, there was, that was not a thought. Plus it was nighttime. So that likely wouldn't have come out in a video anyways on my cell phone. Um, yeah, it was pretty cool. You probably would have needed one of those very special sensors that you were working with a few years before, uh, that you were familiar with yet to get anything from. Um, but listen, Sarah, I appreciate you sharing that because your own experience is your own experience and not everyone is always comfortable doing so. Um, so we'll call that the end of part one, because part two is going to change tone. Well, let's go straight into it. And on NewsNation with Ross Kultark, um, which by the way, given what you talk about and what we are going to talk about, if you read the YouTube comments, it's surprisingly positive, given the nature of what you, you end up discussing. Uh, and I was really pleasantly surprised to see that because of the way YouTube can be high to everyone watching on YouTube. Um, and something you said to Ross was, I don't know how crazy you want this to get. Um, so I'm going to say to you, Sarah, let's get as crazy as you want to and discuss the, the word, the spiritual, the spirituality, whatever you want to call it. Um, and I was trying to think of a good place to start this conversation and I was going to go with 2012. You had a near death experience. Would that be the best place to start? Um, sure. Yeah. Uh, things started increasing more than I did have, uh, May 10th of 2012. I remember the day I remember numbers very easily, probably why I got a physics degree. Um, and things started increasing after that. So most of my life I have had spiritual or in ghost encounters, or I've had vivid dreams of loved ones that would come to me. And then after my near death experience, I started having more psychic things happen, which I really didn't understand at the time and was freaking me out. And that progressed to more of the vivid dreams. And also, I don't think I talked about it before I would have kind of like the movie, the sixth sense, the things would visit the little boy, especially in his sleep. And he, and that would happen with me and I didn't know what was happening. So a good chunk of my life, I had suffered from night terrors every once in a while. And, but I would know I would be in the night terror and I would scream at, um, my boyfriend at the time to wake me up in my sleep. And, um, and so I had no idea that it was like from a spiritual aspect of things until I started going down to like training and learning how to protect myself. Um, but yeah, I started having more an onslaught of things and that included visitors in my dreams and in the house where I was certain a guy in a raincoat in a rainstorm was in my bedroom. And, um, it would, I would talk to him like these entities in my sleep. So I would be sitting up asleep, talking to them and my ex would, you know, case the house to make sure we were alone. It would freak them out enough. Cause I was that convincing that something was in the room. So sometimes I would just point to him like, he's right there. You don't see him. And then of course he'd come back to bed with drill and high and I'm like laying back down, I'm laying down and back sound asleep. Cause I was asleep the whole time, but I would remember all of this. And, um, so like more things started happening like that and more psychic things and things progressed to, um, having somebody else's loved one come to me. And I, the person that she was a part of, like the living person, um, him and I didn't know each other very well. And it freaked me out horribly bad. I didn't know what was happening to me. I was predicting some of these things for myself that were occurring. And, uh, that was the last straw. I was like, I'm going crazy. I don't understand what's going on. I need help. And so that's kind of how my classes and all my training search journey started was thinking I was, um, super cray cray and needed help. And you, you mentioned to me, a lot of folks have reached out to you cause you've touched on some of those experiences in previous interviews and folk have wanted you to follow that up. So take me through a timeline wise. Are we, is that 2012, 2013, or are we going back further than that so far? No, it's actually forward in time from where you're talking about. Um, this would be 2018. I had actually, uh, the person and I were his loved one came to me and I'm freaking, I'm freaked out. Um, he, we stopped talking soon after that. And, uh, I found a psychic medium and that wasn't too far from me. I have loved ghost stuff, you know, my entire life. And so I was, I was reaching out to find a psychic medium, which I had never done before. Um, I didn't know what to look for. And I just knew that there's a lot of people, a lot of scams out there, a lot of, a lot of, um, you know, like I'll call it like Ms. Cleo, like you see Ms. I'm not saying Ms. Cleo was a scam, but like the commercials and stuff of, of Ms. Cleo back in the day of, of call Ms. Cleo, I'll, I'll help. And, and so I was, didn't know what I was looking for. And I of course found the right person, but she was about, I don't know, not far, less than half an hour away from my house. So I made an appointment with her. She was booked up for pretty far in advance. So I had to wait, I think it was probably about a month or so before I was able to finally go talk with her. And I was super nervous. I actually, this is really funny. I briefed a four-star general. I briefed the director of NSA that day, national security agency. And so I briefed a four-star general and left work right after the briefing to go to my psychic medium appointment. And I just, I'm going to interrupt you, Sarah. I'm really sorry because I want you to keep your flow going, but I think this is a really important thing in the UFO conversation, sort of where we're at now. So people for years, decades, have wanted individuals like David Grush, Sarah Gam and others to come forward. And we'll lump Lou Elizondo and all those names. I just don't want to rhyme off everyone's name every time and talk about the UFO subject and talk about analyzing real pictures of UFO, talk about seeing but non-human biologics and all the stuff that for decades was literally consigned to movies. And it's a strange thing where we are in society that now we're there and we've got these individuals like yourself coming forward. It's kind of blown people's minds a little bit that it's not the narrative they maybe had in their head. And the best way I can put this, and sorry I've used this one before folks, is when I read the Harry Potter books, I in my head had this whole world created. This is what the school looked like. This is what the characters looked like. Hermione, for three years, I called Hermione because I didn't know her name was Hermione. No social media, you know, it was the 90s. And then when you see it on a screen and it's a director's interpretation and here's the cast and here's the language and it can change, it can be good, it can be bad, it can be better, all different things. And I think this is where people have had all of a sudden, for many folks, the UFO topic for years maybe have been slightly more entertainment than informative. And now it's such a real thing that you can attribute and attach real people to this story. And I think you make a great point there. Like you say, you were literally doing a briefing with a four-star general for the NSA one afternoon and then at night, forget what you're even doing. You're just off living your life. And that's the point of, I've asked people like Luis Elizondo, the day you saw that piece of footage, what was it like driving home in your car afterwards, sitting in traffic, looking at the family in the car next to you having a meltdown because their kids are kicking off in the back seat. And you've got this paradigm world changing, video playing over and over and over in your head. You know, David Grush having journalists go after and attack his private life, which he has a private life. He has a personal life that's nothing to do with his job, with his role. And it's kind of brought to the forefront and people can see that as muddying the UFO conversation, but it's just people's lives and real lives. So I just want to make that point that it's great. You're sharing the real, you are a real person. You have a life and interests that just because it doesn't necessarily conform with someone listening or watching this is view of what someone working in this topic or the intelligence community should be like, because that's not what the movie said, doesn't mean it's not real and true and genuine. So I am now rambling. So sorry to put you off. No, thank you. Yeah, and it was a career goal of mine to brief a four star general index. I got to brief a lot of three stars while I was at MGA. And so I thought, oh, you know what, let's up the ante. Let's brief a four. And I had no idea I'd be able to do that. Such an early thing. I have so much of my career left. And so that was really cool, you know, putting a different hat on and going to a completely different experience. Like I said, I've never had a psychic medium reading before, but I was freaking out. So when you ask earlier about, you know, after you see these videos of, you know, potential UAPs, how do you go home and you sit and you're in traffic? I've had a lot of the moments where I've been blown away by more spiritual stuff where I'm like, Oh my gosh, that was real. That was me. That was, uh, I don't know how to process this. And I can't just like call anybody about it because this was in my brain and this was my experience. It's not theirs. Cause I don't want to project this on other people. It's their, their life. It's not. So, um, yeah, anyway, so I go to my reading and, um, woman was absolutely wonderful. And she told me things that I had a best friend that had passed away the year prior. And she said details that no one would have known and gave me healing that I will, I'm forever grateful for. And then she also, you know, we talked about other loved ones and some other very private things that no one would have ever have known. And then she said, you could be in my seat. I'm like, what are you talking about? And she said, they're showing me you in my seat. Like you have the gifts, you have the abilities. You just need to know how to bring it out in you and know the training or get some training to know how to bring it out. I was like, I'm in like, you don't have to say anymore. I'm in, how do I do this? I'm in grad school. I was in grad school at the time. It was like, I, I have to finish grad school. I have no capacity. I'm working full-time and I'm in grad school. And, uh, I was like, I barely am sleeping. Right. As it now, as it is. So, um, I, can we put a pen in this? And so she of course was like, yeah, um, I do teach. I have like a, a spiritual school here. And it's like, yeah, I'm in, I just, we have to put a pen in this. And, um, so I ended up going to her after my classes, after my, my grad school was over and yeah, started my training. And it just so happened a few months after I graduated, um, she was starting like a new session of like the round one, basically, you know, spirit one-on-one kinda. Um, yeah. So all the, all the timing, everything ended up working out of course, perfectly as it is. Um, so that was really how I started diving in was, um, um, yeah, I still even, I remember what I wore that day, briefing the general and then going to her. So very memorable. Noah, thanks for that. And you're saying year wise, we're around 2017, 18. Is that right? 18. Yes. So are we, towards the end of 18. Are we in AOL chat room territory here? Is it, um, are you in the chat room with the, unofficially with the UAP folks at this point? Um, no, not yet. I didn't join that until 2019. Okay. So how did, and obviously you're going to, you're going to be doing that. You'll be down the road with your, your, your learning, your spiritual journey and your mediumship. Did that conversation ever bleed into conversations with the folks in the chat rooms or even within the task force? And I wonder how that landed if it did. I bit my tongue a lot. Um, cause sometimes we would go down rabbit holes and, you know, yeah, once in a while we'd go down rabbit holes talking about, um, aliens and the crossover of spirituality and ghosts. And, and so I, I really bit my tongue and I, and I bit my tongue enough to where it's like, no, I'm in here. This I'm, I'm, this is being discussed for a reason. I can provide value. I can provide, provide input. So I very slowly started saying things like, oh, I've been watching ghost shows my whole life. I know all about this. So I would, I would make it like a fun cover for what I was doing. Cause I was afraid, I was afraid I would get fired. I was afraid I would, um, my career would be over and my clearance pulled. So very, very scared to fully be like, I'm going to be a psychic medium one day. Cause I was still in the classes. Right. And, uh, so eventually I, I forget what day it was, but I finally told a few people privately and they were like, that's really cool. Like, how do you, uh, and they, they ended up asking a bunch of questions about how I came about it and, um, also being a scientist. And it was really neat that it was like, uh, a caring and the non-judgment situation instead of being judged and told to leave the room or, or whatever. So it ended up being a very positive experience. Like, and then I would slowly start not filtering as much to others and, uh, be more open about it. And the more I was open about it, I realized no one cared and it was quite freeing. And I, we used to call it coming out. So a handful of my friends still haven't come out and because their family might not, um, appreciate it. So some of my classmates that I was with in the spiritual training courses, they, um, like some of their family members don't see the value in what we were doing or whatever. They don't feel comfortable talking about it with others. And so I felt really blessed that I was surrounded, completely surrounded by people that accepted me. And I, you know, I'm still the same person. I'm still like quirky and nerdy. And, um, now I just have more weird jokes I could share with others. And do you know what? You've not actually talked about the, the near death experience yet, because I think that's, that's really important. And it seems to come up in conversations and well, this isn't a near death experience or ghost podcast. This is all relevant to what we're talking about. When I spoke to Leslie Kane about how her book and Netflix series, surviving death, there's this idea that people who have these near death experiences or NDEs seem more open and susceptible to paranormal or psychic phenomena. It seems like a door gets opened to the afterlife or whatever that may be. And when you come back, it doesn't completely close. Does that sound right to you? Yeah, I think, I think for me, it just opened wider because I was already open and it was like, oh, oh, the floodgates are open. Okay. She's, she's definitely going to experience more now. Um, yeah. And that's what I've gotten a lot. So reading other books and stuff about NDEs and, you know, other people have shared their experiences with me that, um, what I experienced was, you know, along the same lines as some others, some, uh, some of the things aren't the same. It took me a long time to get answers of what I did experience. And, um, it was an interesting moment because, well, I saw blackness. So I was completely surrounded in absolute dark. There was no light where I went, but it was the best place of love and peace. Um, I usually do start tearing up and crying. I don't have waterproof mascara on right now. So I hope I don't, but, um, it's so much love and peace that when I think about it, my body can't contain the emotion because it's so beautiful. So it comes out in tears. Um, but yeah, my family was around me and I knew they were there. I just couldn't see them. And so everything I was experiencing was in blackness. And so I didn't understand for a very long time. Like, why didn't I have this experience that other people did where they, you know, saw Jesus and they saw their family and they saw these colors and I got black. I got a void. Um, so I finally got the answers one day and it was just, I will 100% cry. Um, it's just so beautiful because I did all, I was also raised in a religious household, um, very religious community. So a lot of people are Catholic. I was raised Presbyterian. And, uh, you know, when I go back and I visit my family at home, I, you know, my daddy is a preacher, he's a lay minister. So I get to go listen to his, his sermons. And I love listening to him talk and sitting in the congregation. I'm always going to be in awe of him, but, um, Um, so I was informed, I was actually getting ordained by the order of Melchizedek and Reverend Dan was ordaining a lot of a handful of us. And he was talking about a lot of his experiences. So first off in the state of Virginia, which is where I live, if you practice Reiki, which I'm also a Reiki master. Um, if you have a paying clients, um, giving you money for your service and you put your hands on them at all, which sometimes you do in Reiki, um, it's considered a religious practice. And so you have to be ordained in order to do that. So I got ordained. And, um, so we're all listening to Reverend Dan's, um, stories and a lot of his stories paralleled with some of mine. And I'm in awe at his journey and what he's done and what he's taught. And, and so he got to his near death experience and mentioned seeing black and I, my hand went right up. And, and so I asked him, uh, what, why like, well, I, I saw blackness as well. And, and this was almost 10 years to the day. So 10 years to the day of my dear death experience, we were just like a few weeks shy of, of 10 years. And he said, well, uh, before God turned on light, there was darkness. So what you experienced was pure love and where you went was before when God turned on the lights. And so I, yeah, I cannot talk about this without crying because it's so beautiful. And so, um, yeah, so magical. Like I get to be a part of this magical world and I got kicked out of heaven to come back and tell these stories and help people know that if they've experienced this, you're not crazy. It is love where you went and we have to come back to this place where there's all this hate. And, you know, I could care less if people are making fun of me for crying right now. It's like, we're real people and I'm here to, to share this love in this light. And, um, the near death experience was definitely profound for me, um, for many ways. And I'm thankful enough that I remember so much of it. I remember coming back to my body. I remember hearing what the doctors were saying. I remember the nurse telling me she needed to call my parents after, um, I finally got in the ICU and they had me stable and I had a port to my heart. I got a scar on my neck from a port that went to my heart. And, um, I remember thinking to the nurse, don't call my parents. You're just going to freak them out. Like God done told me I'm going to be okay. Didn't, didn't everybody else hear God say that? And, um, and so finally the nurse asked three times and I had to oblige, um, cause you know, my, my ex at the time didn't know what to do. Like he didn't know what to tell my parents. And, and so I finally said, yeah, give him a call. Um, but yeah, my perspective in life hasn't changed since before it, but my ability to see that there's more in the world and that love is infinite and that change is always inevitable. And love is always infinite. Um, that, uh, that we're here. I'm here part of all of this for a reason. So that really digressed and I'm kind of sorry for that, but also not sorry. No, that's all right. And I greatly appreciate you saying that, uh, sharing that as well, Sarah. Um, I've not made many guests cry. So, uh, but, uh, do you know, you made yourself cry? That's fine. And you say that was, that was all on me right now. This is recorded. So no one's making fun of you when it's published. I can't promise you, but people be nice in the comments. Do you know what? There's so many more nice folks and negative. So leave a nice comment. Um, a couple of ways to go with that then. And just to touch on, cause I don't think you mentioned the actual NDE came about because you were where you were going under, was it anesthetic you were under and something went wrong? It was a routine. Yeah. Routine sign of surgery. I had a very bad deviated septum. So I was getting a septoplasty and the surgery went well. Recovery room part did not. I first woke up and when I wake up from surgeries, I asked for stickers cause that's what happens. And I was holding my stickers and I was like, can I go back to sleep now? And the nurse said, yeah, that's fine. I'll wake you up in a minute. And, uh, so I closed my eyes holding my stickers. I was super proud of them. And she, I heard her say, oh, she's not breathing. And I was like, who's not like, I, I didn't see anybody else around here. I pray that they're okay. And it was me. Thank you. Likely theory is anesthesia issue. Just to clear that up. Cause I know you'd forgot just to mention that. So thank you just for bringing that one in. Cause people would be shouting at me, what happened to Sarah? Why was there an NDE? Yeah. Now let's, let's kind of bring this slowly back to NHI. Um, because the, the topics are linked for me. Um, you're have had these experiences growing up and psychic phenomena, whatever you want to call them, that they're all just different labels for something unknown or outside of the normal. Did you ever think of it in terms of it being a non-human intelligence when you had any kind of ghost type scenarios or psychic phenomena? And I'm right in saying it does come down to you. You believe you have had interactions with species that aren't human. I had my first, uh, NHI come to me during a meditation. I think it was during the, the shutdown of 2020s, the COVID shutdown, um, kind of didn't surprise me cause I knew that they worked with us. And I, I was surprised at the, um, clarity, like how I saw them and I could feel the love that emanated from her. It was a her. And since then I've definitely had other encounters during healing sessions, even where they want to, they want to help heal us and help heal earth and make, um, earth more of what it should be, which is operating from love and light. And I've then progressed to, I have had, it's just, I keep looking at, I'm not used to just being so open about all this, but it, this video is out there. It's posted on, um, my Facebook business page, but during a ghost hunt, um, I actually, uh, and NHI was present in the ghost time. So, and then the people I was, uh, being, doing mediumship and people that had the gadget, they would, I would say like, there's something over there. It's, you know, so tall and it's like long arms and, um, panned over and in the technology that was, um, being used, you could see what I was describing. Um, so that was my first encounter, especially it was somebody's knocking at my door and it just scared me. Sorry. Is it someone physically knocking at your door or? I, yes, I think so. I work on a, let that go. Um, sorry. I don't, I don't have visitors very much. So that scared me, especially during the day. Cause I would normally be at work right now. Um, sorry, sorry. So, uh, it was my first time having a NHI show up. It was like a live audience. You could also see it on the technology that was being used and I was describing it. So, um, that was, that was pretty cool. That was memorable. So usually when I do spiritual work, there is a data dump. So I don't remember a lot of what is provided to me. I joke that there's only so much vacancy up here. And so spirit knows that I also don't need to retain stuff because it's private for clients. Right. So I don't need to like, remember something that's so intimate and private in their life. Uh, so I do get a very quick data dump. Um, sometimes even hours after a session, if I don't write it down, I'll forget it. Um, but there are a few times when there's a few tidbits that I will remember. And that was definitely one of them. Um, and even like seeing it on, uh, it was an SLS camera, um, that you could see what I was describing. It was really neat, but that is, yeah, super cool. I'm making a note to check out the video when I get a chance after this. Um, if people can see me looking off to the side, notepad and pen. Um, so on that, do you think there's any correlation between you having that first NHI experience during meditation, being in 2020, when you're, you're with the task force during that time and the actual work you're carrying out? Um, to me, it wasn't one or, you know, it wasn't like what you were asking to me, it was just my spiritual work and what was happening. I never thought about a correlation between the two, honestly, until, um, I guess it was probably either from Lou Elizondo or it could have been from another coworker that was on the task force that also had some experiences and talking with them. Um, I, I really never thought the two correlated with each other just because my life is, um, so synchronistic with a lot of things. Um, and then I had a visitor in my room one night that I did talk about, um, with Ross on his interview that really made me wonder what was going on and it was protecting me basically and, and doing protective maneuvers in my bedroom. Um, but because of my spiritual world and, you know, like I mentioned earlier, seeing things in my sleep and things being in the room that it didn't alarm me or set bells off because I know whatever's here in my house is of love and light. So, um, yeah, that's an interesting question and I'm sorry, I'm not, it's not like a yes or no. Um, but I never thought about correlating them until recently. Just in case folks haven't seen the interview with Ross and people go and check that out. Um, it's really, really good. Uh, what was the visitor in the room? Um, the visitor, it was, uh, a bluish purple, and being, and it had, uh, no hair ridges on the sides of its head. So it was nighttime, so I couldn't fully tell you what actual official color the skin was. It definitely looked like a bluish, almost like iridescent, um, sheen of purple to it. Um, no ears, holes for ears. Um, kind of like, uh, you mentioned Harry Potter earlier, kind of like a Voldemort-ish nose, but it was like a little bit, um, not quite so flat like Voldemort. Um, and it had this, uh, kind of best I could describe it is more like a Star Trek type uniform on like very plain, um, very plain clothing, but it was definitely a uniform of sorts and a darker color. Cause it was, you know, nighttime. So it was darker color than now. Um, and a sword and the sword was gorgeous. Uh, it was more of like a crystal type material and kind of changed and morphed and glowed. And, um, but it marched basically, it was marching back and forth in my bedroom. And, um, so one of my cats, Krypton, he sees spirit. He has fought spirits for me. He sees, uh, my best friend that I mentioned earlier that had passed away. So he visits, but, um, my friend also saw my cats when he was alive. So they're also familiar with them. And so when he comes and visits, I know when Krypton sees him because it's like, it's weird, but he responds positively to them. So I know my cat's behavior, right. Um, and Krypton sat up in bed and I'm like, I'm still asleep, right? This is a vivid dream, like wake myself up. And so then I'd realized pretty quickly that I was actually awake and this entity was legit walking in my room and Krypton was staring at it. So I'm looking at him seeing if he's aggressive or if he's protecting me and angry. And he was just like, oh, okay, I'll just continue to watch. Like he was just going back and forth, watching the entity. And I asked, I started asking a bunch of questions like, Hey, what are you doing here? Do you need some water? You need a sleeping bag? How long are you staying? Like what's going on here? And it was like a guard at the London palace, like straight on not acknowledging me. He's on a mission. Like, all right. And then at one point there was like a glow, like a kind of like a portal opened up near one of my windows and he wasn't too far from a window. And it was like a, like a pinkish glow. And he stopped and he looked and kind of looked like he was being talked to. And this was very brief. And the portal went away and he continued walking and Krypton's like watching this whole thing too. And my other cat, he'll homeboy, he'll sleep through anything. The house would be on fire. And he's like, I'm going to die here because I'm comfortable. So he wasn't moving. And Krypton eventually just laid back down to go back to sleep. And I'm like, all right. And I definitely didn't feel anything bad coming from it. So I knew nothing bad would be in my house. So I laid back down and said, you know, if you need water, I guess, you know, where everything's at and went back to sleep. So interesting. You say you don't, uh, nothing would be coming in. Uh, you mentioned loving lights, it's a phrase I find divisive because some people, when they talk about the UFO topic will say they are in constant contact with loving light beings and everything in the UFO topic is positive. And there's no, there's no black and white. Everything is great on one side of it. And I don't think that's a fair way to look at it. Would you say though, it sounds like you're talking that there are entities or NHI which aren't positive? Correct. Yes, there definitely are. Um, not all of them wants, wants what's best for earth or for the world. So, um, one or two questions. And one of them, uh, is actually, I'm going to go back to one you mentioned when you first started talking before about, um, the NHI work with us. And I'm just curious what you meant by in what way. Oh, good question. So, uh, a lot of the benevolent beings wants what, wants what is best for us on earth for our best and highest good. And they want us to get back to a place where, um, you know, earth doesn't have wars. Cause apparently at one point from what I have been told in some meditations that we once were a harmonious planet and we operated in higher dimensions. And, um, so they want us to get back to that, to, to where we should be and trying to help us go along that path. And there's a handful of other, I'll call them famous people out there that are very open facing about, um, these beings coming here and, you know, earth's awakening and getting us back to a fifth dimension. So like Dolores Cannon, people have asked me about books and stuff. So Dolores Cannon is amazing. She is unfortunately passed away, but, um, her legacy is being continued. And she is, uh, like some of her videos are just amazing to listen to of the goodness that she knows is coming here on this earth on, on, um, and yeah, on this planet. So, um, the beings that I have worked with are trying to help get to that state, but also we, we, for all of our amazing technology, medical technology, or, you know, cell phones, everything we've come a long way and we still have so far to go. Um, I was just talking with a family member earlier this week about how little we actually know about even our own brains. And we were discussing about, um, concussions and the, the potential side effects of those decades later. Um, like we really don't know much about our own bodies, um, for how much we also do know at the same time. Um, so yeah, so the benevolent beings are just trying to help us along this path and maybe not nudge isn't the right direction, but encourage and there for us as well. Is it fair to remind the audience right now that anyone, anything you're talking about just now in terms of beings, isn't from your work with the UAPTF or anything you've done there, this is through your spirituality and the work you've done from that point of view. Yeah. So there we go. Um, and you mentioned, and one thing people do get in touch with me from all, all sides of the UFO conversation and I'll hear about sightings. I'll hear about people who have never seen anything, but want to see something. I'll hear about folks who have experience with beings. They'll see are positive and I'll hear about negative beings as well. And I'm always happy to listen to people's stories, but I think this might be a good time for anyone who, who does have those sorts of experiences. One, you mentioned the positive, positive side of things that you experience and how you, you get a feeling and that's all right. But you mentioned as well, there are protections and things you can do or rituals to put in place that may help someone who feel, and I've, I've had these emails from folks who feel they're being visited or experiencing something potentially more negative. Yes. Thank you. So one hot, let me collect my thoughts. So yes, definitely negative out there. I have encountered in some of my spiritual, I don't know, not even adventures. We'll call it an adventure. I like that. So in my spiritual adventures, I have definitely come across negative NHI. And for some reason, I have an ability to ask them questions and they usually answer. So I know of why some are here and why they're not. And then of course I go to Google or I talk to some of my other friends who are also mentors or my teachers and, um, ask them more questions and then they validate of things that I ended up getting on my own, giving me another layer of validation about them being negative and why they're here. So one way, so this I'll bring up, I'll talk about protection now. Um, cause I have gotten that quite a bit of, uh, questions from people. Um, one super duper easy way to protect yourself is to imagine a bubble around you, a bubble of love and light and this love and light, no matter what your religion is, if you're, if you're, you're high, if your source is your higher self and you may be pray to yourself, um, that love, um, from God's love and light or sources, love and light can come out of your heart and envelop you in a bright bubble of light. And, uh, so that light is protection. So a lot of spiritual work, especially early on when I started, it's about using your imagination and having intent. So having the intent to not allow anything to harm you is actually amazing. And it's helpful because we are more powerful than them. We have a body. We are here. This is our experience on earth, not theirs. And so we have the ability to, to kind of send them away. Not all the time, but, um, but yeah, imagining this bubble. And so for kids, so there's a lot of my clients have kids that have abilities and they're like, we don't know, like my kid's three years old. I don't know how to tell them to imagine a bubble. And I'm like, well, have them tell them that there's, you know, imagine a bubble and you step into it. Like they can, it's, it's still the intent, right? And you can, you could send these bubbles to pets. And, and I also like to ask Archangel Michael. So Archangel Michael or St. Michael is a protector and he's God's protector or source or whatever. He's a very powerful angel. And so you can ask him for protection too. So something simple that I like to say, and it varies from what I'm asking protection for, whether it be while I'm doing this, this with you right now, and, um, might be getting some attacks from, from others, some negative attacks or something. I protect myself before I do speaking. Um, so I asked Archangel Michael to only allow love and light in my space, either on my property, in my house, over my pets. You could even ask for protection on your car while you're driving. Um, so you ask for protection of love and light and everything else is not allowed in and it is banished now. And sometimes I'll take a deep breath. And then when I exhale, I'll imagine all the negative stuff going away. And then I'll take another deep breath and I'll inhale goodness that'll come in. And then when I exhale again, everything else is swiped away. So, um, very, very simple things. And, um, when you start doing stuff with intent, it really makes a difference. I'm going to get to listener questions very soon because I appreciate you've been with me for a long time and a lot of folks said, uh, sent in stuff, but I really have to ask. So you're someone who has for you, you've got direct proof of an afterlife. You know, you've had that experience that NDE. You've also seen videos and data that had convinced you of an existence of non-human intelligence, including your own beliefs and your, your background in academia. With all that in mind right now, if someone comes up to you in the street or a friend says, you know, sitting down over a coffee or a drink, you know, that's, that's UFO stuff. What exactly is going on? How do you answer that question with all that experience? Um, I guess that varies on what the question and the context is. So I'm going to give you a more specific one then because we are right now a couple of weeks away from congressional hearings again on the UFO topic on November 13th. So you may get some friends who are out of touch with the UFO thing or just dipping their toe in the water for the first time. And you're going to get someone saying, Sarah, that's UFO stuff. You know, is this real? Have we really got aliens here? It'll be something like that. Won't it? Yeah. Um, I would tell them, yeah, we're not alone. And I would mention my, uh, thing, same thing I would say in undergrad of infinite amount of space. Why would we be selfish enough to think we're the only ones in, in infinite space and say, yo, I, yeah, I've, I've seen the data. I've seen some of what is being discussed and, uh, without a doubt in my mind, we're not alone and it shouldn't be a secret. I don't know why it's a secret that, that we're not alone, but you know, the truth is here. The truth isn't just out there anymore. It is here. It is now. Great question. Uh, great answer to that question. And I'm going to get to listener questions now, Sarah, um, try to have short answers. Yeah, no, let's listen. I'm just double checking some of them. Uh, we might've touched on already, but we'll get through these. And then there was so much I wanted to speak to you about. I would have had you here for like four or five hours. I've condensed a little quick fire round right at the end, just to touch on a few things to get quick thoughts on as well. But again, thank you folks that sent over a question. Um, I'll get Sarah back on if she's, if she's enjoyed herself to get through more of them. Um, but first question from Gnosis says, have you seen the high resolution HD or 4k video that has been claimed to exist by other people with clearances? There's a rumored long video, some say 23 minutes. Um, no, I don't think I have. I've seen some good quality data. I don't think I've watched anything for 23 minutes though. Okay. How does the quality of materials you saw compare to the 2017 videos that the tic-tac gimbal go fast? Uh, some of them are much, much better, especially, uh, no, caught me. Um, some of them are, some of them are much better. I'm sorry. I'm going to be giggling about that for a little bit. Um, some of them are definitely much better. Uh, but also some of them are the same because some of those sensors are, haven't changed either. So. Do you know the most annoying thing for me? I've never said this before on the podcast. When I speak to guests who I know have seen various pieces of footage or data, et cetera. And when I'm talking about it, you'll probably have that playing in your head as an image anyway. So right now you're probably thinking about that video and it's just like, yeah, if I could remote view, that would be fantastic. You know, just something that I could read my mind would be great. Um, yeah, that's a frustration. Um, and I like this question still from Gnosis asks, what would you say to those who worry that those on the inside have not actually seen anything that would be classed as unequivocable, unequivocable and undeniable if declassified? Um, what would I say to those who haven't seen something declassified? No, no. So what they're saying is, you know, there are people who worry that people on the inside haven't actually seen anything startling or real genuine proof. And I think that even includes some of these senators and congressmen and women who are coming out saying, wow, I've just seen something incredible. Well, um, I mean, this is kind of a narrow scope of the broader intel community, right? Like most of the intel community is looking at terrorism and, um, fighting battles that most never know that are being fought while we sleep at night. I can honestly say I, I have fought against more terrorism than I ever realized I would in my career. So looking at UAP videos, I think is mostly of one of like the, the curiosity and the fun flair, the side of things. So it's not something that would just come up in a meeting while I'm discussing uh, you know, ISIS movements and where we need to monitor next and where they might have a hub somewhere. UAPs don't come up. So it doesn't surprise me that not a lot have seen what I have, even though I've probably seen just a fraction of what's out there. Awesome. A lot of folks said I sent in questions, including Agent Black and Jacob and many more around a comment you made on the Good Trouble show with Matt Ford, um, about the, and I think you did with Ross potentially as well, I'm not sure, about the jellyfish UAP. So this was a video. That was with Vinny on Disclosure Team. And Vinny. Um, but you, you did mention it on a couple of others as well. Um, so the jellyfish UAP video is the one that's filmed in an active war zone. It looks like it's a really weird looking shape and it looks like it has stuff hanging down. People say jellyfish because if you imagine jellyfish tentacles and whatnot. Now, yeah, now I believe you said that it was something prosaic and it isn't something anomalous. Um, it is. So I have been getting a lot of, I'll call it blowback from this, but it is, it is not a UAP. Um, it is something that I can't discuss what it is. The analysis is unclassified or it is classified. I did not do the analysis. Uh, it was a another group that did it. And I would not be saying this with high confidence on camera if I didn't trust it. Cause that is a lot of people are asking if I trust and I just like, why would I risk my life and my career if I didn't trust what I'm saying? Um, yeah, it is not a UAP. I can't discuss what it is, but it is. What's my cat. I don't know if you heard Krypton meowing, but he's here. That's all right. Um, but it is not a UAP. Okay. Uh, and just to follow up on that, uh, cause I have to, you had mentioned that it was Aquarius life was one of the comments. Yeah. Um, I definitely wasn't talking about the same video. I didn't think so because, uh, immediately I was thinking what type of Aquarius life would be floating around potentially in this guy. 100% not thinking it was the same thing at all. A few folks brought that up and that, that's absolutely fine. So thank you for clearing that up. I am, I am sorry. I have learned lessons. I will ask for clarification on questions. Um, I will take a sip of water and process. Sarah, this is an incredibly difficult topic to navigate and I think you're doing as well as anyone. So don't worry. Thank you. So I suppose just from a conversational point of view, you have mentioned that you weren't happy with these types of leaks. And I wonder if you could expand on that. Um, your, your statement was something like it's, uh, the, the videos like that are 5% of what that says and you feel stuff like this, these leaks are hurting versus helping us. Yes. Um, thank you for bringing it up. I am very passionate about what I do in my work and I am upset that somebody has been wanting to leak really hard work that people have done. So think about if an author writes a book, let's say it's a hundred chapters. And of course a lot of love, a lot of passion, a lot of research, a lot goes into writing this book. You have to do edits and you have to do so much behind it. The publisher decides to only put out two random chapters out of the hundred. You got chapter three and you got chapter 77 and then one photo that goes along with chapter 50. So that's basically what's being disclosed. It's not a whole story. It is a snapshot and those snapshots do look pretty good. And I can't discuss about some of the other improper leaks that have happened that aren't UAPs. Um, but we could talk about the jellyfish because that's what's happening. And that's what I was discussing about when I brought it up. So yeah, that looks pretty crazy. I, there's no doubt in my mind that that don't look cray cray, but there's so much more to the work that went behind it. There's so much more to the video. And I just, I'm like, I cannot discuss what it is because that is classified. Um, I will just say that it is not a UAP and a lot of work went into looking into that video. What does come across as how frustrated you are with that kind of stuff happening. Um, is it fair to say that these leaks are deliberate attempts at disinformation or misinformation or is it stupidity, laziness, whatever you want to call it? That's a, that's such a good question. And I asked myself that, and I've talked to some other colleagues that also, uh, you know, um, when we talk at work, uh, in a classified environment on why somebody would do this. And I really, it boils down to, we don't know. I'm not that person. I don't know what they're going through. I don't know if they're trying to help, if they're trying to debunk. Um, I don't blame any of the media for putting the stuff out because it does look crazy, but they're not getting the story that goes along with it or the analysis that goes along with it, or the conversations that were spoken to the camera operators or the drone operators. Um, so it's, it, it is very frustrating because I have had some of my work that I worked on months to do leaked and it'd be completely inaccurate. And I can't say a thing about it. Given the nature of what this would turn out to be, would we, the public, like, ever find out what it is or is it just, that won't happen? It's just, it's classified. That's it. I, I honestly don't know. I, I really, I, I get frustrated just as the public does. Like, I wish some of this could be disclosed. That's why I'm talking. That's why I'm trying to validate other people of, that we're not alone. Um, and to hopefully nudge that needle over to a side to where, yeah, we can actually make some of these things unclassified or we could at least speak about them publicly. Um, that would be great. Good time for a question from Stephen, which asks then on that note, what was Sarah's motivation for coming forward and what concerns, if any, that she have about doing so? Um, concerns, I mean, all of it, um, my life, I have gone through not pleasant things since I came out on the good trouble show with Matt Ford. I don't wish what some of the things I've gone through on anybody. Um, you know, I wouldn't risk my life and my career if I didn't truly believe in my words that I'm saying. Um, what nudged me to come out was honestly, you know, Lou's book is behind me. I loved it. I, I soaked up so many of his words that resonated with me. And that also made puzzle pieces fall in place on what I was going through, um, what the task force and then the transition to arrow. And, um, I, it would, it, to me, it felt like the right time. And I will be a part of James Fox's film. I'm not in it a ton. So don't, don't y'all think I'm going to have like this, this amazing long segment on it, but, um, you know, I, I want the truth out there. And with the disclosure act happening, oh, I, you know, last month, I just thought like, maybe I'll help be able to be an advocate. So a lot of, a lot of things like ended up lining up in my life to be able to be brave enough to come forward. Cause if you were to talk to me a year ago, I, I could not have, I was healing. I was recovering from a knee surgery and I, you know, had a lot of things happening in life and I didn't have the time or energy to do this. And so now I do. And do you know of more Sarah Gams who may be texting, emailing, or calling you who potentially could come out themselves? Uh, I haven't, I mean, I know of a handful of others, but I know they don't want in any type of limelight or starlight or whatever kind of light this might be ring light. Um, but I, I hope like I'm happy to be a voice for others too. So if they want me to speak their words for them, that's not going to be the first time I've spoken for others. So I'm happy to do that. And I hope more do come out. I have been getting a flood of experiences and shared details of some similar things that I have spoken about. And that is absolutely incredible. I feel so honored that people trust their stories with me. Um, but it's also overwhelming because there's all this goodness that's happening and there's still the stigma. So I hope, I hope we're all knocking that down. Dave Smithers sent a few questions, a few Hail Marys. Um, so the first one was Arrow used a very high bar of scientific analysis in my view to avoid drawing any conclusion about the exotic nature of the observed UEP. Using a more intelligence-like assessment, what things did Sarah observe that were things our current, um, our current technology could not do. Sarah- I would say the maneuverability definitely. And that's, you know, I know I'm not the first person saying this, um, but the maneuverability and the, um, and I'll call it like a, in quotes, like playfulness of, uh, the objects. And I say playfulness because I'm, I'm not a pilot dealing with seeing this in the air. So I'm sure that was not playful to them. Um, but I, the maneuverability, like the g-forces and stuff, the stopping and the turning and the pivots and 90 degree turns that are on a dime, there's, um, you know, that's not a balloon. That's not, uh, anything here. So I think that's probably the most I think about when people ask me that question. A little follow-up on that then is in her estimation, how many years in advance of our tech were they and did the tech differ? Um, exponentially. I mean, they understand quantum physics way worse. Just starting to crack the code on quantum. And, and sometimes we get, you know, push back, we do a few backward steps and then we'll take a leap forward. So, uh, I mean, they're exponentially more understanding of physics and even, even gravitational forces of, um, being able to do, you know, like the cool shielding that the Marvel movies have on their ship and stuff like that. Like that's, that's in a sci-fi movie and just think like that's actually real somewhere. How cool is that? Very cool. Um, it must be so much fun. This is just for me, having your passion and interest in the UFO topic and getting to do that job. Like that's like, if I got to do a day's work experience and you took me in with you to look at videos and pictures for the day, like that'd be incredible. Um, on that, the, the hive asks, have you seen the video of the Mosul orb? Yes. Is that in a private capacity or professional? Professional. Professional. Um, the followup to that is what was the analysis of the UAP task force of that video? I cannot discuss that. It is unfortunately classified. To be fair, that's two hours and one minute we've been recording Sarah, and that's the first time you've said that. So I'm pretty impressed with myself that that's the first time I've, I've got that from you. So I'm more than happy with that at this rate. Um, uh, also have you seen other similar orb videos in the task force archive that you analyze and haven't been released? Yes. I'll follow up. How common are orbs as a shape? I would say that's probably the most common shape. Okay. Yeah. And we're talking round balls, not discs, you know? Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I don't think I have. Oh, I do have something round. Here we go. Cool. Labrador 8. Yeah. Which I get a disc from above. Looks like, you know, could be a sphere, but yeah, that's fine. Um, Johnny asks, did she ever collaborate with anyone within the UK government during her time in the job? I did not. You did not. You did mention on, oh, and I'm getting my stuff mixed up with, I think it was with Ross on News Nation. Um, I did, um, I mentioned it with Matt and then I think it was Ross. No, it was Vinny because Vinny's over there. Um, but I did clarify that I should have gone in more depth, but I, it was just going to Google. I was helping a friend trying to figure out out a paper for a thesis and for a master's program. And we started talking about databases of UAP stuff. And so what I found was just on the Google machine and anybody technically could go do that. Did you ever get any sense of why the US seems to be so public about this conversation? You know, it's on Fox, CNN, NBC, and I'm in the UK, right? I'm in England from Scotland, but I'm in England and we don't get a sniff of this in the UK. Even the biggest stories, I suppose, um, the Grush story from last year, we had a four day window where the press, the serious press had an interest, not a major interest, but an interest. Um, and there was a small interest when Lou Elizondo's book came out a few weeks ago. Other than that, there's no, no incline that this is a thing politically or in the mainstream in the news. Any ideas why you think that is? Um, I think, I mean, we're just maybe more persistent here. I don't know. I, I really, I'm not sure why it's like such a easier thing to discuss here. Um, maybe with the crashes in the forties that happened, um, you know, there was a lot of publicity there, but I know stuff has happened overseas and in the UK. I really don't know. That's a good question. I think here's Krypton. Oh, there we go. First appearance from the cats. Hello to the cat Krypton. There we go. Um, and you know, specifically, I do like to think maybe in the UK, they're just better keeping secrets, but you know, that's debatable, uh, depending on what side of the argument you fall. Um, a final, final listener question from Mr. Calhoun. Does Sarah think there are any telltale signs expressed in those that are more connected or susceptible to the phenomenon? And I suppose within that, we can include spirituality. So people have particular traits or tells. Can you repeat that? Yeah. So does Sarah think there are any telltale signs expressed in those that are connected with the phenomenon? Um, that are connected. You mean like, kind of like I am or I'm reading that as either personality traits or there's something about them, something like that. And I suppose that could connect to the spirituality side of things. I don't know. Um, any signs? I, I really, I don't know what signs there would be. And I don't, I don't want to call any of my friends out for being like, Oh, well that person has this trait. And so that they're open. Um, so yeah, I don't know that answer. Well, I'm going to ask you one more thing cause I just missed it. And then we'll finish off on the quick fire because you'll be having to go to bed soon at this point, Sarah. So I appreciate you've been with us a long time. I might go hiking. That sun is bright in here. So I might go out to the woods. And this is true then folks. Actually, when I came in to record this, it was sunny outside. It will now be pitch black. So that's how long me and Sarah have been recording. Um, so final question then from Christian, and maybe this is more relevant for you with the physics background and the data driven side of things. Has Sarah seen specific radio frequencies that UAP emit? Example would be the 1.6 gigahertz in Skinwalker Ranch. I had a guy from the air force tell me they can identify UAP by the frequency they emit. And even went as far saying they are different NHI. So from my work on the task force, no, because we didn't look at frequencies like that. We looked at the imagery and at the videos, um, from my other knowledge I've gained, especially from watching Skinwalker Ranch. I love all the data that they have on there. Um, yes, but I would have seen the same thing that you guys have because it's Skinwalker and it's a show when the data's out there. Awesome. So Sarah, I've got, I think, four things here. Uh, I'm just looking for your thoughts on, they can be as quick or as long as you like. Um, but I appreciate we're very much getting towards the end of our time. Um, so the first one has been the big piece of news from the last sort of week and that is the Immaculate Constellation UAP crash retrieval program. I'm glad you're nodding. Um, and I just wonder, can we get your thoughts on that? I was not aware of it until two weeks ago. Um, and I'm not surprised about it whatsoever. So I, there's a lot of, uh, SAP or special programs that are out there that I have not read into and I'm happy about that. I joke that ignorance is bliss because some of the stuff that I've learned over the years, I do kind of wish that I would not have been a privy to. Um, so yeah, so I wasn't surprised by it at all. That's fair. Um, would programs like that have used your expertise or something like the UAP task forces expertise or would they be so buried and classified they wouldn't have wanted to be involved with you? Uh, I, this is my opinion, right? Um, I do believe that other task force members likely would have been utilized, but I was just on, you know, supported from one small corner of it that I, there was no need for me to know. Would they even know they were being utilized for that or could it just be here's something we need you to look at it, get it done and then give us what you've got? I mean, I guess it could be if you, if you don't know, you don't know, then you don't have to sign an NDA and read, read somebody into the program. So yeah, I guess, you know, that, that could be a thing. Uh, your thoughts on the upcoming hearings in Congress, uh, scheduled for November 13th. I am so excited. I cannot wait to watch. I hope I'll be able to watch. I'm actually going to be on vacation overseas during the time of the hearings, but I will be with some like-minded people that hopefully we will all be watching. We are. But last two things. So the first one, have you seen much or, or care about the Nazca mummy story? I, what I've seen is what everybody else has. And I think it's really cool. Uh, again, I'll talk about being a hopeful person and that I, I don't understand why people would dupe us or, you know, say inaccurate things other than, you know, clicks and maybe attention or whatever. So I'm hopeful that there's, that's real. I think that's where I'm at as well. I would love it to be genuine, um, because wow, but we have to wait and see still on that one. Uh, and finally, uh, you mentioned James Fox's, the program, which I know James had an update yesterday online, uh, yesterday being the 21st of October to see he was having some big meetings in LA, uh, with some potential providers. I hope James lands a really good deal for that. Cause I've said many times he's got a family. He spends a lot of time away from his, his child to go and do the work he does. And he got absolutely shafted financially and his last documentary by the company as well. Um, what are your, what are your hopes for the program as a documentary and what it can achieve? Um, I just got goosebumps thinking about it. It's of course, really good. James does amazing work and, uh, yes, what he has gone through is just gut wrenching. I can't imagine being in his shoes and I, uh, I do know it'll be released. He keeps saying before the end of the year. So I've seen it and, or at least a version, I think it was maybe a version or two ago, but it is, it's such good work and you could tell the passion behind it, even the passion behind the, the people with the cameras in their hands. Um, I I'm excited. I really do hope this, whatever his meetings are. I am hopeful for the best again, lots of hope to 2025 with today's guest. He is a former member of the UAP task force. I'm delighted to welcome to the podcast Lenval Logan or Logan, as you'd rather be called. So welcome mate. How you doing? It's good to have you on, uh, an English guest to the podcast with a, a very different accent. So, uh, that's probably one we'll have to have to start off explaining, um, a little bit about your background, Logan and kind of who you are, where you were brought up and kind of what's brought you to the dance. Uh, sure. Uh, so my full name is Lendwell Logan. I was born and raised in Nottingham, England. Um, Lenton Sands area. Um, I came over to the U S when I was in my mid teens and I joined the air force over here in the U S and I started off as a B 52 crew chief did that for four years, uh, flying around in the big bombers. And I was stationed in upper Michigan, which is really cold. You guys know what it's like to get really cold. So I cross-trained into intelligence and while I was doing intelligence, I learned a lot of interesting techniques, went to a lot of interesting places. And then I retired from the air force and I started working for the U S government. And then I got, uh, introduced to the UAP task force and they invited me in and said, uh, let's go figure out what these things are. That is a hell of a background in about a minute being summarized. So thank you for that. And we're going to dive into some of that history. Um, any early interest in the UFO topic before we start talking about the more recent times? Yeah. So believe it or not, when I was, um, in Nottingham back in the seventies, um, that was my first introduction to a UAP. Um, a friend of mine in Nottingham, um, he just passed away three years ago. And it's kind of funny cause I asked him about it and he didn't remember, but, um, we were playing with a, with a softball, like a tennis ball, throwing it up in the air. And I don't know if you remember the days when you used to see like sneakers wrapped around the telephone wires. Yeah. Right. Is that just a UK phenomenon or is that, uh, no, it's here too. Right. Okay. Yeah. I do. I remember that. We're throwing the ball and, um, I threw it way up there. And then I noticed there was something way off in the distance behind the, the sneakers on the line. And I'm like, what is that? And all it was, was something that looks like an iron that you would iron your clothes. The whole bottom was red and the top was just kind of grayish. And it was still a gray sky. And I'm my friend and he's like, that's a helicopter. I was like, I don't hear any noise. And he goes, neither do I, you know? And while we were talking about this, it must've stayed there for about three, four minutes. And then we heard, uh, some jet engines. The next thing you know, we saw two fighters come flying by and this thing just kind of dodged out. And I remember I was telling my friend's mom and she was like, Hey, you kids watch too much science fiction. So I just kind of let it go, you know, just, it stuck in my mind, but I just kind of let it go. And it wasn't until I started seeing other things when I got to the U S that I started going, Oh, maybe there is something to this. So that was my first introduction. And, and, and just to caveat on that, you familiar with the, the, uh, Birmingham UFO group. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I called up Dave Hojian. I think his name is properly pronounced. And I, when I was part of the task force, I was like, Hey, I got to know, has there been any sightings in Nottingham? Cause I couldn't find a Nottingham UFO group. So he was the closest. And, um, he said, I've only had one, uh, sighting that came across that. It looked kind of like an iron. It was triangular, but it looked like an iron. And so we talked about that. And then there was another individual I, in his group, I said, does anybody remember anything going on in Nottingham around this time? And one guy described a light that he saw, but it was like 20 years difference because the way that the, the, the object was, it was kind of weird looking. And so we just kind of started a friendship and went from there. And, um, so, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was kind of interesting. And when you say that was the kind of introduction to seeing a UAP or UFO until you made it to the States, is that, did you have sightings in the States or do you mean with the work once you were in the military? I did, I did have sightings in the States, but I didn't know what they were. And again, these are all things that you, you know, based on the stigma and everything you hear, you kind of keep it to yourself, but you put it in the back of your head. Right. And I would hear reports from security police and different people and whatever. And again, I just put it in my, in the back of my head. But the reason why I kind of got into the task force, because my wife says, what are you going to do when you grow up? And crazy question. I said, I said, this is going to sound weird to you, but I'd really like to know what those things are flying in the sky. And she says, so what are you going to do about it? I said, well, I do all this crazy stuff for the government, but I don't do anything for me. And she goes, yeah, exactly. She said, you should do something for us. So I said, I'm going to figure out what these things are. And then I would say maybe six months later, the story broke with Lou Elizondo. So I just looked him up, stopped by, see him. I said, are you serious about all that stuff that you talk about? And he goes, yeah. I said, if you are, stop by my office. I figured if he can, if he had the clearances to get by my office, then he's the real deal. Yeah, fair enough. And he showed up with Chris Mellon and Jay Stratton and the entourage of other people. And, and they, they made their case and, um, that was pretty much it. They made their case and we, uh, we talked and when they were leaving, um, we, we compared notes pretty much. Cause I still, when I knew he was coming, I started grabbing all the information I knew and it was like, Hey, this is real. This is real. This is fake. I know this is fake. Yep. Let me see what they're, where they're going. And, uh, they, when they were leaving, they started talking to each other, um, between Chris, Lou and Jay. And then Lou peeled back around and goes, you're in. And I was like, in what? And he goes, you'll see. And I said, hold on, hold on. Before you do anything, you need to talk to my boss. And they talked to my boss. And next thing my boss says, give them all the support you can. And that's why I got into the task force. And, and what year was that meeting? That was right. So Lou came out in December and I would say my thing was probably February, March, 2018. Yeah. 20, 2018. Cool. Yeah. Interesting. Um, and little shout out to the wives for getting people involved in this topic personally, because I literally started this podcast and March, 2020, or sorry, May, 2020, uh, April, May, because I had a sighting in the November, December of a triangle driving home from work back road, really busy. It's near an airport, but almost definitely wasn't an aircraft. And, uh, I remember getting home and really excitedly telling my wife about it. And I remember she just said to me, not really caring about what I'd seen, but she was like, I wish you enjoyed your job as much as you know, the passion you're kind of talking about that sighting and UFOs and everything. And sure enough, when COVID came along, I bought a microphone and started this. And yeah, so I was similar that I would maybe never had started this. Had she not, you know, kind of told me, we'll do it, you know, take that plunge. So a little shout out to the wives for getting folks involved. Yeah. Um, totally understand. My, my wife was just, um, the best way she, she's not, um, so much, uh, a UAP person, but she was traveling through, through Asia and she experienced what she thought was a paranormal incident. And so she said, there's something there. There's definitely something there. So she was like, go pursue it. Go, go, go after. Cause I, I, a lot of us men, when we start thinking down the road about retirement, it kind of scares us because our minds are so active. We're like, so what is retirement? Am I going to sleep? What am I doing? Just laying there. So I want something to keep my mind active. And I figured what better than this subject to pursue, to keep my mind busy and active and, you know, work with other people like you and other people and see where this goes. And the hope is, hope is, is that, you know, collaboratively together, we'll figure out what this thing is. Yeah, absolutely. And I will really, I really want to take the conversation and strip it back because my first question was going to be, you know, about working with the UAP task force, but having spoken to a few folks now involved in it or who know about it. Um, I want to ask you in your words, what is the UAP task force? If you know, if someone's asking you a normal member of the public, for example. Okay. So the whole thing from our point of view, working with Jay Stratton and everybody else was we had a safety of flight issue. All right. Um, the way it was presented to me and the way we dealt with it was we had several, uh, pilots on the range and they were filing safety reports because they couldn't get anybody else to listen to them. So here's this long list of safety reports saying, Hey, there's something on the range. There's nobody's supposed to be here. Sooner or later, we're going to have a, a near, a near miss or an actual accident. What are we going to do about it? And the frustration that some of the pilots felt was that, um, if nobody knows about anything else on the range, if they have a, a, a near fatality or, or if an actual fatality, what's going to happen is they're going to blame it on some kind of pilot incompetence without knowing the rest of the story that there was something else out there. So these pilots were like, Hey, take a look, you know, what, what capabilities do we have that can help us identify what these things are on the range, you know? And, um, to kind of give you an idea of where some of this stuff went, um, the Jay Stratton and company put together what was called the, uh, range follow report. Are you familiar with that? Okay, great. So I'm working on the range follow, you know, looking through some, I decide to get up, go to lunch. Um, on the way I see these four guys looking at me, um, two were in Navy uniform, two were in civilian uniforms. And they're just kind of got an eye in me as I'm going by. And I was like, what's up with them? And I, all of a sudden I hear someone say, that's him. And the guy goes, are you Logan? And I go, yeah. And they said, can we talk to you? I was like, sure, I'm going to lunch, but what about? And they said, you know, the weird stuff. So I figured out what they were talking about. Oh, okay. Let's go back to my office and let's talk. And, um, before we even made it to the office, they dragged me into the broom closet. They were like, what the hell is going on? And I'm like, what do you mean? And they're like, we've been seeing this stuff for 30, 40 years. So what I figured out was the two guys dressed in civvies, they were retired Navy aviators. All right. And the other two were still active duty. And they're like, what is going on? So I told them about the task force, why, um, you know, the safety issue. I went through the whole thing and they're looking at me like, I'm an idiot because I'm talking about this openly. And they said, we've had friends that have lost their jobs talking about this, you know? So I was like, so you don't have to worry about it now. You know, like I said, we have the range file report. Do you guys want to file? They're like, hell no. I said, no, no, no, no. You don't understand. You can be anonymous now. And they're like, no, we'll, we'll, we'll take a wait and see approach and see what happens with all this. Cause I mean, and they were just frustrated. They were like, this is weird. You're just talking about it. Like it's an everyday thing. And I said, well, now it is. I said, I said, the stigma is still there, but it's not as strong as it was before. And every once in a while, they would stop by the office and go, can you show us what's the latest? What's going on? Tell us who's doing what. And I gave them, um, Jay Stratton's number. I said, look, me telling you probably doesn't mean a lot, but Jay Stratton is like the equivalent of a general, you know, or an admiral. I said, here's his number. Why don't you go talk to him? And they came back and they, they felt better, but still it was like, this is, this is a whole new world because we're just not used to anybody talking about it in the open. What did a day look like? So when Logan's going to work, you know, Monday, Friday, nine till five, if you know, whatever the shifts were, you know, what, what was a day like for you? Cause I think people in their heads are confused as to what the task force looked like. And we, we spoke to Sarah Gam, I spoke to Sarah Gam, uh, other folks have as well, who was an analyst for the task force. And she talked about the chat room and just diving and then out of folders and finding stuff out. And we've all got our ideas that it's this kind of little room somewhere, maybe, maybe some desks, some computers, and you guys are just sitting there all day getting emails with videos of UFOs on them. So, so not every day did we get something and I want to, want to state something. There was, there was a core group, probably about 40 people. And then there was everybody else that was supporting us. All right. Um, so in my office, I had, uh, two other guys, I'm an all source analyst. So I look at everything's imagery, signals, you name it, Mazin, all these other capabilities. And then we had a, a traditional singing guy and a traditional imagery guy that was behind me. So if, if I looked at something and I just wasn't sure what the hell I was looking at, I could sit there and go, Hey, take a look at this. And, you know, and as new technologies come on, the idea is you want to be able to spread your wings and go talk to those other people and go, Hey, this is what's going on. So I had my kind of like my regular job, but this became something that was started taking over more of my regular job because there was so much stuff coming in and you can't just look at it and go five minutes and go, Oh, okay. That was done. Off to the next one. All right. So, so I would get things directly in the core of the task force. And then what happened was there was this chat space that we had and there would be people that would, um, call us and say, Hey, there's something going on. You should take a look at it or I'm sending you a file. And sometimes I would get calls directly from another unit and going, Hey, is this, is this, is this Logan? And I go, yeah, yeah. Hey, we've got something for you. And they would send it to me or they would tell me where to go to find the, you know, whatever. And so there's the, the inside the office. And then there's the collaborative area online where we would go. And there would be things coming in through there. And on that, to make sure I explained this right. Most of the people in that collaborative area, if there's the core, when you're collaborating, you have another agency and that other agency may have a few people that you can reach out to. They have a focal point that you go to one person, you request the help. And he goes to the rest of the people in his group. They look over it and then they come back to that focal point and he hands it back to the task force. And that's what Sarah was doing. She was in that other, one of those groups. So she had someone that would pass stuff to us, but also too, in that chat function. I didn't start it. I was about to start one. I said, I said, you know, we need to reach out. And I went on to this, to our computer system and there was already a group there. And Sarah was a part of it. And a bunch of other people were a part of it. And it was the fastest growing subject as people were finding out more about this. But I would say as fast as it grew, there were a lot of people that just lurked in there. They didn't, they didn't say anything. They just wanted to hear what was going on. So they didn't talk. So it was most of the people that were in those other, not in the core groups, but in the outside groups, they were in there all the time. And we were, we would look at something and going, and someone would say, no, that's a balloon, and I was like, yeah, but if it's a balloon, why is it doing this? You know, or why is it not doing this? Or, oh, that's this. And, you know, we would go back and forth. And that was kind of the working day to day. It was, if you got something internally, you get permission to share it with the rest of the group, because there's still, again, the core guys. And we, the, the amazing thing that I thought was good was why we needed this was because we did not have any money. Okay. They were pretty much told to take this out of high. So you can't go to some commander and go, Hey, yeah, I want you to spend, I want you to launch two F-18s or two F-15s, whatever the case is, you know, and, and, and, and go check on little green men for me, you know, or whatever the case may be. And we never used the term little green men. It was, we, we were always going with something. Okay. First thing, let's rule out that it's not a foreign nation and whatever, because this, this is a new capability. Let's figure it out. And then it was, okay. Uh, we tried not to touch what I would call the third rail aliens. All right. We would try to stick it to, you know, could this, could this just be another drone? And if it's a new drone, well, what are the capabilities? Why does it do this? Why does it do that? Is it electric? Is it gas? Is it, you know, we've tried to go through the whole thing. There's like a checklist. And then again, if you're not the expert, you reach out to someone in that chat group and go, Hey, what do you know about motors? And they were like, what do you want to know? I was like, okay, for something this size, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. How long could this thing run for? And then they would give you their expertise. And then, and every now and then that guy would sit there and go, you know what? I don't know that answer. Let me call somebody else in. So that, that group started growing. And now we had this bank of people that could provide a lot of information. And then you would kind of start going, okay, of you guys, how many of you guys feel it's this? And then we would kind of put things in a box and say, that one's been resolved. This one leaning to is conventional and mundane, but there's these two little outliers here. So let's put it in the deferred box and maybe come back and take a look at it. And that's kind of how we would try to break things apart and how we communicated. And there were some really smart guys, just some scientists. He would come in and go, I heard you guys got a problem. How can I help? And then we talked to him, tell him what we thought. And he'd be like, you're stupid. I mean, sometimes it was that way. It was like, don't you see this? And we're like, yeah. And he goes, well, that's the, and you're like, oh, and then next time you saw it, you were like, okay, don't even bother asking him anymore. Cause you don't want to feel stupid anymore. Put that off to the side and keep going. So that's pretty much day to day how it, how it went. It was just that when we found some really strange things that might take a conversation of a couple of days because, um, you're sitting there going, I mean, it's something you can't even talk to your wife about it. You're coming home, you're sitting there in your, your wife looks, she's pissed at you now because she's like, you're in a mood. And I'm like, no, I just got something that I'm trying to resolve in my head and it's not making any sense. And she's like, do you want to talk about it? No, I can't talk about it. You know? And then you go back in the next day and you're like, okay. And you talk to whoever you call up to Jay Stratton and go, Hey boss. Um, this particular thing came in and here's what I'm seeing. Could you do some additional checking? And he would check at a higher level for us. But the best thing about it, even though we didn't have the money, we had this collaborative scheme and he told us lean forward and get his, you know, do as much as you can. And then if you have any problems, come back to me. Um, I do want to say one of the things I was trying to push was I was, um, I said, what about all the civilian pilots? Cause we were hearing reports on civilian pilots as well. And Jay came back and said, it's not that I don't want to include them. He said, but the problem is we don't know their chain of custody of information. At least with the military stuff, we can have real good chain of custody, figure out who it is, go back to the pilot and talk to him individually. Whereas if it was a civilian pilot, sometimes their airline might not allow them to talk to anybody. So it was a different approach, but it was still pretty, um, it was, it was a really fun job because you had to start thinking out of the box. You had to start, you know, wondering, you know, well, why would someone do it this way? You know, cause one of the biggest questions everybody asked me was, Hey Logan, um, if they don't want us to see them, why do they keep turning on their lights at night? I ain't got no answer for that. You know, I'm just kind of like, yeah, good point. Good point. So hopefully that answered your question. It really did. Thanks for that. And it's helped fill in some gaps at least as to, to what that day to day looked like. And I wonder, you mentioned those stranger things. Okay. Um, shout out to the Netflix series. Um, you, you mentioned you try and stay away from aliens or NHI. And I appreciate that because I think it makes sense. If you're going on objectively, you're looking at any one piece of evidence and you must be going, this can't be aliens, non-human. So do we identify that it's China, Russia, North Korea, um, Scotland, Jamaica, you know, the people's Republic of Congo, whatever it might be, right? Have they got some new tech? And then you go, yes, gone, binned or no. Okay. Onto the next one. Is it something prosaic where you need Mr. Scientist to come in and go, Logan, don't be stupid. You can see that. And you go, Oh, how did we miss that? And then you, you learn from that. But then again, it's resolved. What's the percentage of things though, that are in that box that you can't quite explain them. And you maybe have to push them towards that other category. So that's kind of interesting because now, now that it was kind of an open subject, people kind of knew what to look for. All right. Um, imagine this, you're a pilot flying along and you pick up something on your radar. Then you pick up something on your gun camera. And then you see it with your eyeball and it goes by you. But when you go back to the gun camera, there's only like two or three frames with what it was in there that sticks out. That's not traditional. That's not something that's just going to be a regular airplane flying by or whatever. So you, you automatically sit there and go, okay, you go through your checklist and go flop and put it off to the side. So I would say there was a, the things we looked at, there was a higher percentage that there was actually something there, than it being something being misidentified. But there was still a lot of things that people hadn't seen before that were misidentified. I mean, I've seen, um, like for balloons here in the, here in America, if I remember correctly, every state, so we, we got 50 states, every state launches a weather balloon in the morning and in the afternoon. So when you're in that area, you're like, well, Hey dude, did they launch this? Did they launch that? Then you're looking for unusually designed aircraft. So I'm not sure if you are familiar. There's a, in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, there's the experimental aircraft association where people can just put together. It's a great show. If anybody wants to go to a good air show, go to the Oshkosh air show. I think it's the last weekend in July last year. I think they had over 650,000 people all come into this one little town and you will see some unusually designed aircraft. All right. Now me, when I was in the military, we used to take a B 52 down there, a tanker, maybe the SR 71 back in the day would fly in and, you know, and you get to mingle with the crowd, but, um, but you start off with something like that, where maybe you get some of the pictures of the unusual aircraft so that when you're going through your checklist, you can sit there and go, well, it looks like this. So now you get some imagery analysts, some illustrators, some people that you can talk to and say, based on the lights and based on what we know, could this be this? And you may get like a higher percentage to say yes. So it goes in the regular box, but you don't, you don't quite throw it away because later on, there may be something else that comes close. And, and one of those outliers that you saw with it completely lets you pick it up and go, it is now in the unknown box because something else just came up and looked totally different. And, and now you put it over there. So, and this facilitated more discussion. Okay. Not just inside internally in the group, but on that chat collaborative space, you would have some zingers just go by and like, Whoa, nobody thought about that. What about this? And then we would even listen to some of the podcasts and some of the things on YouTube. Cause one of the things I wanted to do was if a pilot saw it, obviously it's in classified chains, right? And we can't talk about it to anybody, but imagine what happens if we see the exact same thing in a YouTube video. Now we can talk about it within certain, you know, left and right. Sure. Yeah. But the more interesting thing was usually when a pilot sees something, it's, you know, it's for a moment in time because they're hauling ass and they're, and they're fighting aircraft from whatever they're doing their thing. But usually if a civilian sees it, he's on the ground, he's staring at this thing for five, 10, maybe more minutes. Right. And the idea would be to see, does it, does this, whatever it is, this unknown anomaly demonstrate something that we didn't see in the military or in the classified side. So now we can incorporate that and say, Hey, it did this, it did that, it did this. And we never, we never saw this in the, in the gun camera footage or whatever it was, you know? So we'd have to incorporate that and go, and now that's a textual part of the report. And you put it in there saying, Hey, displayed X, Y, Z. Okay. And now you start building up more and more things. And then you start trying to figure out, well, where else has it been seen? Um, I want to add something there. So the triangle thing that I saw that the iron thing that I saw when I was a kid, I went to the, uh, there's a UFO conference here every spring called SCU scientific coalition of ufology. I think they might've changed. Um, so the one last year, um, I, a friend of mine contacted me, said, are you going this year? And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm planning on it. I'm planning on it. And he goes, we'd been talking for a while, but we had never met. So before the conference, he goes, let's meet at the bookstore. And we met at the bookstore and there just happened to be a UFO magazine that was promptly displayed. And he goes, I'm going to buy one. And I said, you know, I'm going to buy one too. Just, just in case there's something new in there. Most of the time, based on what I've learned, I'm, I'm kind of bored now, because unless it's a book by, you know, you know, some of the books behind your head there, you know, Ross, Ross Colhart, or, you know, Jacques Vallée, or, you know, even Lou, um, most of the time, you're not going to find anything new. But in this magazine, that thing that I saw as a child was in there. And he said, and it was pretty much showing that this is one of the more unusual shapes. So I wrote the, the editor, a letter saying, could you, cause they never said where this thing was saw, seen, sorry, where this thing was seen. Um, so I asked the editor and said, Hey, please. I didn't tell him who I was. Obviously. I just said, can you please tell me where this thing was seen, any background information or whatever, and didn't get anything back from them. So, um, I was having to have a chat with Ross Colhart and he was like, let me take a look on that for you. So I'm waiting for him to, to see what, what comes back. But again, that's the kind of thing that if someone else sees that thing and they can give me either more collaborating information on exactly what I saw or more unusual or something totally different from what I saw that adds to what we, that adds to the knowledge base of what we know about these things. So again, really good explanations on there. I appreciate that. Um, we're hearing about the content you're looking at. We're knowing the process you guys are going through to eliminate the prosaic, the probable start to work through this. How often though, even with some of the stuff there, you're saying that you're looking going, let's put it back in that other unresolved box. How often did you come across something that was like, wait a minute, wow. You don't even have to think or ask a question about, could this be this? Could this be that? And you're looking going, this is 100% anomalous. Okay. I would always go with the 99%. I'll take, I'll take 99. Yeah. Um, I would say there was a low percentage of ones that we could, could say that to, but when you saw it, it stuck so far out. There was like, dude, I got nothing. Yeah. And, and you would throw that out there to the world and, and, you know, see who comes back with something and, you know, and you know, there would be some people would throw stupid ideas out there and there's nothing wrong with that because sometimes you're so busy looking at for the more sophisticated things, the more mundane thing pops right out and you're like, Oh crap. How did I miss that? You know? Yeah. So, um, but there were some things out there that just, you looked at it and there was like, either someone's not sharing something internally or we're screwed because that don't look right at all. And you would put it in the box. You would discuss why you put it in the box, talk to your, you know, your leadership or whatever, uh, pass it back to the core of the team and say, um, this is what I got. And I liked the fact that even though we said, like, like I said, 99%, it was still something that we would go back and look at because it's making sure that it's jogging your memory to make sure that it's, again, let's say I put it in the box six months ago. All right. And now I'm not paying much attention to it, but now I go in there and I look and I go, Oh, you know what? There was something a month ago that looks something like this. So now you pull it back out of the box and say, it's worth talking about. I mean, I've seen shadows on the ground. I've seen shadows on the ground that look like, um, uh, what is it called? Um, from the way that the picture image was taken, it looked like an aircraft, right? And it was just a, we, there was a, an image of a field with some water in it, but the shape of it and everything in the way you caught it, it looked, one of them looked like an SR 71 flying. And I was like, my friend goes, dude, what's this? And I'm looking at it and I'm like, yeah, no, hand me the image. I got to see this closer. I was like, what are you stupid? It's a, it's a, it's a thing of water in a field. And he goes, and he goes, yeah, I was just joshy with you. Cause it does look like an aircraft. And I was like, okay, at least you're keeping me on my toes. You know, I'm not just instantly going, Oh my God. I was like, cause I knew the SR 71 had been retired, you know? So, so I was like, why would this thing be out there? So again, you're going back and forth, but if I was to give you a number, maybe 10%, you know, that'd probably be the best I could do. But there were some things that had huge, huge outliers. And you're just looking at it going, all right, guys, everybody take a look at this. All right. What are you seeing here? What is, what is this? And when nobody has an answer, you kind of know you're onto something because they're not saying, well, you know, look at the way it moves. They're not saying something like, well, you know, that looks like this, whatever. They're just sitting there going, I don't know what that is. Look at the size. Cause sometimes it was small. Sometimes it was huge. And you're just going, I don't know what that is. And it starts making you think of just about every science fiction movie you've ever watched, trying to compare something that, you know, and you still have nothing. So, so on that, this is the bit where you have to dance around, or I have to dance around the classified stuff because you could easily sit there and go, can't discuss that. Can't talk about that. Can't tell you that. And that's a waste of everyone's time. There's plenty of interviews out there like that. I'm trying to think of a way to word this question without it sounding really inappropriate. What was the biggest one you saw? And I'm talking UAP folks before. Size? Yeah. So you mentioned like small and large, and I get there are craft and prosaic and otherwise that you can look at and go, yeah, that's pretty small. But was there anything, what was the biggest thing size wise that you went, wait a minute? I've seen something the size of an aircraft carrier. And, but it's not about always about the size. Sometimes it's what it looks like. Okay. In what way? I thought, I'll give you an example. If we weren't as intelligent as we are now with the sophistication of technology that we have, all right, there would be some that if you were to see it, you would think it was an angel. All right. And it just pops up. It's there. And it's this light, but it has a, it's like, like with a shadow and it's giving the appearance of what looks like could be an angel. You know, it's not, you know, it's just the light, but you're like, where the, how is it controlling the light? And where does the shadow thing come from? And, and then what, what size is that really? You know, you're, you're trying to, because if it's in the sky, you don't really have a frame of reference unless there's, you can see the stars or whatever else behind you. But I think, yeah, in one of the talks, in one of the discussions that Lou Elizondo has, he, have you ever heard the story of the, what we call the Black Island? Okay. Is that the, the missile that was being retrieved? Yes. And it comes from under the water? Yes. Right. Right. So, so, um, all I'll say is I saw that I called up, everybody was like, I don't know what this is. Can somebody please help me? I have no frame of reference for this one. And, uh, that got us internally, that got us all pretty excited that we, we saw something. Was that a picture or a video? Uh, it was a video. Okay. So there's video of that. And it was moving. All I'll say is that it was moving. It was good. It was, it was moving at a good rate of speed. Okay. And that's a clear video. What is that? Yeah. And that's clear video, not grainy black and white fuzzy shapes. Yeah. Sometimes you would get some super clear things. Sometimes you'd get some, um, fuzzy things, but even when it's fuzzy, there was enough information there for you to sit there and go, this is not something conventional, you know, it's, it's definitely not like right now. A lot of people have been talking about, about the, um, Jeremy Corbell's jellyfish video. Yeah. I was going to bring that up. Yeah. And you know, people are like, well, it's been, it's been determined that it's a balloon by who, you know, now here's, here's my thing is I'm an all source analyst. I don't just look at the imagery. I look at everything. And when you take into consideration everything, there's no way this thing could be a balloon, but based on arrow and based on, I guess the imagery guys that they went to, they say it's a balloon. We had it when I left, when I left the task force, we had it in our deferred box because there were certain things that we couldn't answer. All right. I, I've heard Sarah say, Oh no, we know what it is. And it's, it's been, um, I, I beg to differ. Put it that way. Sarah mentioned that on a podcast before mine, and I can't remember if it was with Matt Ford on Good Trouble show, or if it was with Ross Coulter. I then asked her to follow up on that. And I believe what she said, and I'm going to paraphrase here, and I'm always careful to paraphrase. It was more around, she, it wasn't anomalous, but they knew what it was. And she was annoyed and frustrated that that information had leaked out at all, that that video shouldn't have gotten out. Now that's an argument that's totally separate to what it is. But, um, yeah, when you were saying, obviously, there's not enough information to say it's not a balloon, but is that to say, then you, would you land on the side of anomalous or are you landing on the side? I would land on the, well, everything that I was saying, I would land on the side of anomalous. Okay. But I, I, you know, maybe Sarah knows more than I do, but I, everything, you know, cause I even, I even, when that video first came out, I went to Jeremy Corbell and I was like, how the hell did you get this? And he was just kind of like, Hey, I got my sources, you know, so didn't bother him there, you know, cause you know, I have to say something, Hey, you got access to this, whatever. But, um, but when I looked at it, there was like, there's, there's a good bit of footage and the stuff that I saw most people looking at, even the stuff that Jeremy has posted, there wasn't, it wasn't the whole video. Okay. Um, there's like, it's almost like 20 minutes long or something like that. Okay. And there were some other things going on there. So I was like, this goes in this box. This is, this is not, this is not a balloon. What it is. I don't know, but it's not a balloon. There was something else going on there that I not going to mention here, but there was other things there outliers that I could sit there and go tick, tick, tick, tick. Um, these, these things do not add up. And so when I started hearing stuff, I was like, huh, well, maybe they did resolve it, but I haven't seen any evidence to say that they did. And if they're not going to say what it is, then I can't say case closed. Yeah. Are you able to elaborate on if it changes shape at all? And I don't necessarily mean morphs into, you know, something else like a saucer. I just mean, initially some of the arguments where, it was a bird shit smeared on the lens. And I, I could see why people looking at a picture or a clip may think that I don't agree with it, but I get it. It seems very static for, for the movement that we see. So here's the thing you have to, again, from an all sorts perspective, you're taking in everything. So one of the things you have to ask, ask is who was the sensor operator? What was it that the sensor operator saw that initially made him start paying attention to it? And what happened throughout the rest of the video? And until the thing goes, like when someone posts something on, on YouTube and they're looking at a, at a video of something, my first thing is if you're that interested in it, why did you cut the clip short? Yeah. Why not until the thing leaves or whatever? Yeah. All right. And, and then nowadays, because there's no, as not as much stigma, when people aren't willing to put their name to it, because who wouldn't want to be the first one to say to see, I got the first rule video, whatever's going on. When there's not a name to it, I'm automatically suspicious, you know, because I'm like, okay, let me go through it, but there's no name. So that's a, to me, that's an attack against it. Now, did it morph? No. But if you listen to the description on some of the things that the sensor operator said, there was more to it than what's just straight there in your face. And the, the, there's a thing I want to get across to Andrew is if you're interviewing any of the, the operators, you got to play devil's advocate with them because you don't know, you know, if they're a junior mid grade, or if they're a senior and they've, they've been there, they've seen that, you know? Yeah. And one of the things I noticed is that when you talk to these guys, especially if they've seen it multiple times, the moment you start playing devil's advocate, they get pissed off at you. They're like, you weren't there. You didn't see when it did X, Y, Z, and dah, dah, dah, and go through the whole thing. And you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not, I said, dude, I'm just trying to do my job. I got to know why you think it did X. And for them, they're usually, it's usually not them, one guy by himself. It is, if it's, put it this way, if it's a fighter pilot, yeah. But none, there's quite a few aircraft now that have two or more bodies in them. So now you've got to deal with what everybody saw. Okay. And if it's a, like, a sensor operator, like the one Jeremy recorded or got the recording of, there were multiple people looking at that thing. All right. And they will get in your face and tell you, you know, they'll give you the finger and say, if that's what you think, I ain't coming to you guys no more. Yeah. And then they'll explain why. I mean, they will get down into the nitty gritty and explain everything in infinite detail and said, this did this, did this, did this, did this. Why? Because they're trained observers and they're trained to look for this stuff. Because sometimes we want to know, put it this way, you, you've probably seen an F-18, whatever. Yeah. All right. But would you know the difference between a regular growler, F-15 and a super growler? All right. These guys do. All right. They're trained to look for these things on, on our stuff and on, you know, on, on enemy stuff, foreign stuff. So when they're talking about, Oh, by the way, I saw this. And you're like, Whoa, what do you mean you saw that? You're writing it down and whatever you're like, okay, so now, you know, this guy is being very precise. He's giving you the little details that you, you don't even have to tell him he's giving you the details. So, you know, he's a trained observer. So now you're looking for, could there be something that maybe he misunderstood, you know? Um, and, and then by the time you're done, you're like sitting there going, okay. And then you go through the video again and you go, you match up everything in the video with what he says and you're going back and forth and you're like, okay, I think, I think I got this. And you know, you can call them back. But when, when they've seen it multiple times and you try to play devil's advocate, they get downright defensive and, and, you know, this is the other part. Remember Lou talks about the five observables, this thing, because of what they've seen, it has affected them in a biological sense because some of these guys can't get it out of their head, what they saw, what they, not only what they saw, but what they saw these things do. You know, it's kind of like commander Fravor and he's saying, you know, it did a left-hand turn and then took off so fast. I couldn't even see it. And now you're in your senses. You're like, what does that? And then if, um, I was at a show in Oregon, um, Sarah Gam and I have a friend that, that lives in Washington state and he invited us out to a paranormal conference because I wanted my app to be able to record paranormal stuff as well. And I'm talking, just telling people about my app. And these two Asian ladies come up to me and they said, Mr. Logan, what are these things? And I said, I said, that's the a hundred million dollar question. We're all trying to figure it out. And she goes, can I show you something? And I said, yeah. And it was two Asian ladies. They were sisters. They were from Northern California. Um, one of them was celebrating her birthday and I guess the day took longer than she thought. So she got a little tired and she decided to lay down for a bit. And she said she heard static electricity and she said this perfect blue orb about a little bit bigger than the size of a beach ball came right through her wall and put itself in the, in her doorway. And she screamed and the rest of the family comes running in and her son was able to take this beautiful picture of this bluish white orb. And I said, Oh my God, what happened? And she could, she said, it sat there for like five minutes doing this thing. Um, and then she said, it went back through the wall the way it came. And I was, I was like, wow, I got to think this through. I totally forgot to get these ladies numbered because they were supposed to send me a picture of this, uh, orb. And so I've been back twice now going, Hey, if there's two Asian ladies here that talked to me last year, please come talk to me. Nobody's coming forward yet. But, um, again, this was affecting her. She said she was dreaming about it. If I remember it correctly. And the same thing with some of these, uh, observers there, it's, um, some, some guys are having nightmares about them. Some, some are not, some just are just saying that they have a repetitive dream of the same thing. They just keep seeing it. And they're the thing that I was told is I said, they said, when you see it, you feel like there's nothing you can do against this thing. If this thing was to have turned off hostile game over, you know? And I'm like, okay, because being in the military here, like American military, you figure like you're the biggest guy on the block. You know, you can, you guys can take care of anything. And now all of a sudden you're like, okay, maybe we're not the biggest guy on the block. And God, if something were to happen, how do I deal with this? And then when they try to tell their friends, now their friends are laughing at them and it's starting, uh, it's like a, a biological feedback. It's affecting you already, but now you try to tell your friends and then your friends give you their feedback and their feedback is not complimenting what you thought you were going to hear. It's causing other problems. So those are, I've been trying to tell everybody lately, um, you know, please look out for some of these guys because, you know, they probably need to get some mental help. Just someone that they can talk to that they can trust. I have one friend, he saw his UAP with other people and he started having nightmares about it. He goes in, he's military. So he goes in to talk about it to a psychologist. And he said, the psychologist spent the majority of the time trying to convince him that what he saw wasn't real. And he said, and if it wasn't for the fact that he had friends that saw it with him, he said he would have probably gone crazy. He said, cause the VA is not set up to handle this, you know? And even if it's a podcaster like yourself, imagine me coming to you with this totally outrageous thing, whether it's real or not. If you're not receptive to what I'm trying to tell you, that puts a certain amount of depression and frustration and all kinds of other things on some of the guys that have seen it. So I'm trying to, while I'm out there, I'm trying to get people to pay attention to not only the activity that it is, that has taken place, but also to look out for your, to your fellow person, because you don't know what they're going through, you know? So I think you have a program in England called unhidden. Yes. Yeah. Whereas looking at, you know, providing medical help to people. So I'm fully supportive of that. We've got a similar type program over here in the U S where we're trying to help people that are, that are dealing with this. But now that I'm no longer in the task force, I'm still very much interested and I'm using my app just to try and collect data. I'm not going to be the one trying to do the analysis anymore because there are smarter people than me out there. But if we're going to go after this and really figure out what it is, it's got to be a all hands on board approach, excuse me, as my Navy brethren would say, all hands on board. So, um, so that's all I'm saying. But anyway, I, I, I went off on a tangent there. So what are the questions? All right. I'll drag, I'll drag you back in and we are going to get to the app. Don't worry about that. Very quickly. I want to ask how often when you were looking at material as part of the task force, would you see material from orbit or above like space? Not too often. No, most of the stuff was, it was ground observation or air observation. That's pretty much where it was. Is there a reason for that? Because I think when you think of the UFO topic, a lot of folks would think you're going to have these super sophisticated satellites and things in orbit and you'd be getting all that material. Or is it just the case that you tend to be getting things from a military point of view? It's ground-based observation. Like you say, fighter pilots, jets, that's... That's 100% it. That's what we were, you know, um, cause here, here's how I would liken it. Those, those things are mostly, it's an individual. Usually if it's something that's a satellite, that's an organization. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Good call. Yeah. So they're not going to be like, Oh, by the way, we don't know what this is. It's going to be within that organization or whatever. It's like NASA hasn't come into Logan to say, can you have a look at this for us? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You know, that makes sense. So that's, that's why I think the majority of the stuff was, you know, it's either a ground observation or an air observation. And, and the best observation is even if you're a fighter pilot doing this one thing, if there's other fighter pilots or commercial aircraft out there at the same time that see the same thing better. Yeah. Um, regarding all this data, one of the big arguments that's been had, had so often as the fact that the U S government or organizations within it would plead transparency. I think people laugh about any government going on about transparency. Um, but organizations like arrow saying they're going to be transparent and information can come out to the public yet. We don't get a whole lot being released. Now we're told that's for national security reasons. We are told it's because it can give away sources, methods, sensitive sensor systems, advanced sensor systems. We don't want the enemy knowing we have, even though it's the old, we know, they know, we know, they know, but we can't, you know, we can't let on. So it's all a big game. However, I've heard examples of, you know, I get why if the U S is spying on a Russian nuclear, you know, fleet, uh, and they have some incredible camera that can look at it from miles and hundreds of miles away and like really crystal clear, sharp imagery that, and they are probably in an area they shouldn't even be, or don't want the Russians to know they are. And this is just a made up example. And during that filming, they managed to film some UAP buzzing the Russian craft. Yeah. Um, I get, they're not going to release that because, uh, the Russians will know we're filming them. Um, the camera was actually hundreds of miles away, et cetera, et cetera. But it seems to be, then you take, for example, Dave Fravor and the Tic Tac incident. There must have been multiple cameras on that craft that filmed the object when it was really close to him. Now that happened out at sea, uh, during a U S naval exercise. So you're not, there's nothing sensitive necessarily there. Surely there would be footage that could be released that would show that much clearer than it is. Yeah. They, they could, they could scrub some things, but again, you don't know if it's like, remember Commander Fravor and them at the time when they went out there, they could have been doing their exercise, testing like the latest, greatest blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever we have. And then all of a sudden they get this real world task and they go do this thing and then use whatever. Now I'm not saying that's what happened, but those are the type of things that could have happened. And they were like, okay, we gotta, we gotta take this stuff off here. We gotta, you know, and people are human. Sometimes, you know, if they got to do all this work to do this one thing, they're going to come up with multiple reasons as to why not they can't, they can't do it. So sources and methods is one I would agree with. There's, there's some things on there that people shouldn't see, you know? Um, but at the end of the day, um, they just don't want this out. I, I, I, I think that, yeah, at the end of the day, there's just some things that we don't want out. Yeah. Yeah. And in general, that's, that's the UFO topic for gatekeepers, shall we say, whoever it may be keeping this secret, it's easier to just keep not putting the material out there for the public. And we're going to get on to talk about your apps and other civilian organizations. And I would encourage anyone to get involved in local groups, national groups, petitioning, you know, Congress, men and women, senators, MPs, whatever it may be. But ultimately all that pressure, is there any amount of pressure that's going to get the men or women behind the scenes who literally can release the 4k video to go, do you know what? That's 2 million people have now signed a petition. Let's give them the video. Is that still, is that going to happen realistically? I don't think so. Me personally. Um, I would agree. I think we've dug ourselves into a position where it's just easier just to keep denying, denying, denying, denying, and just leave it alone. And so that's why I tell everybody, in order to do anything, we've got to figure it out ourselves. Before I left the task force, um, actually not even me, before Jay Stratton left the task force, he said, give arrow as much support as you can. All right. I thought Jay was going to be the new commander of arrow and that didn't happen or whatever. Um, cause the arrow came with a budget, whereas the UAP task force didn't have a budget. And he said, give them as much support as you can. And as I kept trying to get to individuals in arrow, it was kind of like, they had a gate guard that just, he was like, no, we, we got this. We can do this by ourselves. You know, we don't need your help. And to me, the, the most telling thing about arrow was, and so on, please correct me if I'm wrong. But the most compelling thing to me is when arrow got corrected, uh, created, they didn't bring anybody from the UAP task force. Okay. It was a whole bunch of new people. So why wouldn't you want people that have already been working on this stuff and having to pass this stuff over to you that can give you some of the historical background and, you know, some of the things like that they just don't need you. And then when there were things going on, I'd get a phone call. Hey, Mr. Logan, have you seen this? Okay. I'm on it. And then I would give them a call and say, Hey, I need to talk to Kirkpatrick or I need to talk to such and such. And people were like, well, who are you? I said, well, my name is Logan. And then I'm trying to get ahold of this. Well, um, they're busy right now. Okay. Well, X is going on. Could you let them know that, um, they need to be aware of it and give me a call back? Never got a call back. So I was just like, okay. So I just called up Jay Stratton and said, look, try it your way. It doesn't work. I'm done. I'm not calling them again. And he said, okay, I understand. And we just left it with that. So that decision then to come forward publicly, was that one that you made consciously or was it an organic process? Was it James Fox getting in touch with you and saying, Hey, do you want to be in this new feature? What happened there? Okay. So remember that SCU conference I was telling you about? Yeah. So James Stratton was there. Now people were asking me to come forward and say something and whatever, since I'm no longer with the task force. And I was like, nah, I'd like to be in the background and, and just do all the stuff that I need to do because nobody's there. So Jay Stratton was at SCU and he was going to do a talk. And when he showed up, all these people were like, you know, he was like a rockstar, you know? Yeah. And all of a sudden he goes, well, you know, that's pretty interesting, but why are you asking me? And he points directly at me and goes, Logan worked for me. He was there. And everybody was like, and started chasing after me. And I was like, and I looked back at Jay and he just kind of gave me this really shitty grin as he dodged out the door. And I was like, I was like, okay, I'm out now. And then, um, Leslie Keene and James Fox came to me and said, tell us what you think. Tell us all these things. So I was like, I said, from an unclassified perspective, I will tell you what I can. And, but the bottom line is that you need to know is we don't, disclosure has already happened. We already know. Okay. Especially the people that have seen it. They already know. They're just, all it is, is like one of those outliers. They're just waiting for the government to do that little tick and go, yes. And that's happened. So now they go, well, now that the government's admitted it, we need something a little bit more. Yeah. The president has to say it. Well, you already know. All right. That's not, that's not disclosure. That's permission. Almost like, yeah. You know, so disclosure has already happened. So now it's about collecting more evidence so that you can put in front of academia so that can, people can understand the boundaries of what we're dealing with. Because I would say UAPs are UAPs. I would say paranormal is paranormal and cryptids, you know, Bigfoot, Sasquatch, Nessie, that's something else. But there are certain times when we're seeing overlay of all of those things, you know, so are they all connected together? We don't know because there's been so much stigma. So the idea is let's work together with my app and other people's apps and let's get a common data format going and let's collect as much data as we can, find out where these things have been seen, put some overlays on it to figure out where the hotspots are, concentrate our efforts on collecting that data and get the data back to academia. And then from academia, we get the data out to guys like you with your podcast so you can share the rest of the information with the rest of the world. That's, that's my thing because I don't think you need the government to do this anymore because we've got, we've got telescopes, we've got apps, we've got sensors that we put on our our houses, all kinds of things. And these things are being seen every day. I mean, think of the Phoenix lights when all those people saw it. All right. Yeah. If somebody hadn't collected all that camera images and video footage, all that stuff would be in front of academia right now and people would be analyzing the crap out of it. All right. And there's other incidents where it happens multiple times where there's quite a few people there and all you have to do is just collect the data. All we're asking is be a participant, be a citizen scientist and help us collect the data. If you want to be more involved and, you know, help us analyze the data. If you want to be more involved and donate, whatever the case may be, just participate because a lot of people, they've got anxiety over this, this type of stuff. But either at the end of the day, my biggest thing when I was active duty, well, I wasn't active duty. I was still working as a contractor. My biggest thing was just trying to figure out, is this friend or foe? Well, you know, we, we did, we did China. I don't think it was that we did Russia and I don't think it was that. And then, and then, like I said, the third rail and nobody wants to go there, but you have to, you have to think about it. All right. And, you know, or, or is it possibility that at the end of the day, you're looking at an independence day scenario where we're all getting up to go, you know, do this thing. So, and nobody wants that, you know, we'd rather hope that they're friendly and they're bringing technologies and capability. Maybe they can end cancer. I don't know. You know, you know, maybe it becomes possible to say, you know, you know, Hey, can we take a ride once around Pluto and come back? You know, it becomes some entrepreneur's dream to be able to do that. You know? Yeah. I don't know. But at the end of the day, friend or foe, we don't need anybody to, to tell us that it exists and that it's real. And that just, and cause disclosure has already happened. It's all about trying to figure out what's the rest of the story. And without people like you who are asking questions and helping us put it together because trust me, there's going to be some other guy that's working in interested just like I am, who's going to be listening to your show and going, Hey, I heard Logan say this. I didn't know that part. And now we're putting it together. And then later on, we go to the soul foundation or any of these other conferences. And now we're collaboratively talking just kind of like we did with the task force, but electronically. Now we're out in these big meetings and we're talking to people and sharing data. Cause I learned a wealth of things from James Fox and from Leslie Keen. Like, um, you have, I know I'm kind of running on, but I want to get across. So 1990, um, January, 1990, I just cross trained from being a B 52 crew chief over to an Intel analyst. My first, I put in, believe it or not, I put in for a job at Alkenberry air force base and, and they sent me to Bitburg, Germany. All right. So close enough. Thank you. Yeah. I tried. All right. So, so, um, so I'm going, I'm on this, we used to have this, uh, military exercise in Europe called reforger return of forces back to Germany. Okay. And it was just, you know, in case we had to go to war, we'd know what kind of things that we're supposed to do, where we're supposed to work, those types of things. Well, I'm on one of the last flights because now the, the, uh, the wall has come down in Germany and, you know, we're making new friends and stuff like that. And I'm on this flight and I'm eating a Philadelphia cheesesteak. Cause I taken off from Philadelphia and somewhere between Iceland and Scotland, the sun is just coming up. And I just happened to look out the window and there's this diamond head triangular thing doing this. And it would go in the clouds sometimes and pop out of the clouds, not on the vector that it went in. So I was like, what the hell is that? So I looked to the guy next to me. I said, do you see that? And he goes, yeah. And there was a third guy and he's eating a hoagie and he's like, yeah, what is that? And then I'm like, I'm going to my first Intel assignment. I'm going to get right in on some cool stuff, you know, and I get to my unit and they're all looking at me like I'm an idiot. So I was like, all right, again, one of these things that goes in the back of your head just for later. So I go to desert storm that's over. Um, and it just happens that British AWACS lands at the base I was at in Germany. And there, I still have my accent and they're looking at me going, what are you doing with the Americans? And I was like, long story. They're like, why don't you come fly with us? So I go flying with them, having a, having a blast. And then it just starts on me. Wouldn't this be the purple people, perfect people to ask what's flying around. So I said, Hey, um, what's out there that does the weird stuff? And he's like, you know, and I'm like, no, I don't know. Come on, Logan. You know, I was like, look, I don't know. And they've got this, I'm checking in, I'm helping them check in aircraft and check out as they come in and out of the airspace. And so they've got this display. This guy pulls out some kind of tape or something, plugs it in and you can, it's now a different date and you can see the aircraft flying around. And you saw this one aircraft just kind of ding, ding. And it was gone. And I was like, yeah, who's, who's that? Because you know, Logan, I was like, no, let's not go through that again. And he said, that's your SR-71. That's so, you know, it was prior to 1989, I guess. And they had kept a recording of it. So they would remember. And I said, no, that's not what I saw. And they were like, what did you see? So I explained it to them in more detail. And he looks at the other technician there and they pull out a tape and sure enough, every sweep of the radar, just about, they have a target that is jumping all over the screen. And I go, I was so excited. I was like, who's that MF right there? You know, I was like, yeah, that guy, who's that? And they're like, what do you, what? That's like, you know, I was like, dude, let's not go through that again. And he goes, he goes, okay. He goes, we thought you really knew. He said, we don't know who this guy is either. We've just always assumed it's you Americans playing with us. I was like, what? He goes, yeah, we have tried contacting this guy on the radio. He never answers. He says, we've tried sending other aircraft towards it. And whenever we get close to him, he jumps away. So we've never figured out who he is. And I'm like, what? And he goes, no, we don't know who this guy is. So we've just always assumed it's you Yanks playing, playing games on us. I said, trust me, it's not us. And then it dawned on me. I was like, hold on a second. You're, you know about this. So am I to assume that your whole squadron knows about this? And he goes, hell yeah, but nobody's talking about it because nobody knows what the hell's going on. And we don't get any answers back. So who are we going to talk to? And I was like, so your whole squadron knows about this particular thing be bopping around and good. Yeah. I was like, wow. So then I'm like, could it be that if British AWACS knows about it, American AWACS should know about it. French AWACS should know about it. NATO AWACS. Every AWACS out there possibly knows that this thing is this. I don't know because I don't know all their capabilities, but it was just one of those things that I brought up. And I was like, I was like, thank you so much because now you've confirmed for me that there was something actually there. Now the twist on the story is this. Um, I think it was late August. Um, Jeremy, I'm sorry. James Fox says, have you seen, uh, he said, I, I'm going to send you the whole, the whole video here in a second. Cause I was so busy. I didn't see the whole video. And he goes, but Logan, I got a question to ask you. And I go, what? He goes, you told me that you saw something in England in January of 1990. I said, yeah. And he goes, he goes, I'm going to send you a picture. He sends me a picture of the Calvin video. Uh, yeah. And that was the exact same thing that I saw zipping around in the sky. So I was like, what the hell is this? And he goes, he goes, dude, I got to send you the, I got to send you my video, the whole video so you can see. So that's how I kind of got smart, but I was like, no, I started looking on the internet and I was like, I was like that. Wow. I saw that, you know? And it was, it was the way the sky was, it would look dark or it would look kind of whitish, but it was, or I should say blackish or whitish or grayish in that company, but it was just zigzagging through the clouds. And I was like, so you mean this thing's, it was like more confirmation that this thing is real. Now, what I didn't realize at the time was that in January, 1990, being over Europe, that was the end coming towards the end of the Belgian wave. So I didn't see an actual triangle like everybody else was seeing. I saw this diamond looking thing that was, or zigzagging around. And that's even made me even more curious to want to find out about what is going on. You know, I'm not, I don't know of all the things out there, but now that I've seen enough out there and I kind of know what to expect and I know who to go talk to you. I mean, on this trip, I have met and taught, sat down with Jacques Vallée, Eric Davis, Hal Putoff and whatever. And I can consider them my friends. I consider them my mentors, you know, Diane Posalka, Leslie Keane, all these guys that I can just sit there and go, well, what about this? What about this? You know, and again, it's me learning just like how you are, you know, I'm telling you stuff and you're picking up stuff too. So again, the thing that I'm trying to say is we don't need the government. We just need to get our collective shit together and go figure out what this is by ourselves, you know, and then keep the conversation going as we're finding out new things. But yeah, that was one of the things, finding out about that Calvin thing just kind of blew my mind. I was like, that is the exact same thing I saw over here, over Scotland or between Scotland and Iceland. I'm glad you shared the story because so many people got in touch with me to ask about your being, it was the way you were tagged in certain interviews and online when people clip things that you were a witness to the Calvin UFO. So some people took that to mean, wait a minute, Logan was standing there on the hills in August 1990 when this thing was there or was he the pilot flying the secretive jet behind the object? Yeah. So I'm glad that's cleared up. And it's, you're likely a witness to a craft that was very similar, if not the same one, but eight months previous to the sighting, which, which makes a lot of sense. And loads of people sent me that as a listener question for you. So I'm very, I'm very glad you could clear that up. And it is interesting. You saw it in a similar area. What's, what's your gut feeling on what that object would have been? You're saying not, not human tech. Well, originally when I, in my head, when I got to, got to my base, I was expecting someone to say it was human tech and it was, you know, something that I would get read into later and blah, blah, blah. And when none of that happened, I started thinking, and then I started later hearing about the, uh, the Belgium wave. I started, and I still believe to this day that it's not our, not our tech. You know, I have no proof because I didn't, you know, I mean, it was off in the distance and I was watching it and, and I, I couldn't even really tell you the size because I mean, all I could see was the clouds and as it did its thing. But my best guess mine was that it's not ours, maybe shared, but it not the way that thing was moving. There was, I, I, I mean, I even sat there thinking when you make a, when you do that kind of a turn and you're doing this thing, I'm like, oh, there was a TV show a long time ago. It didn't, it didn't make it very long. It was, I think it was called auto man. And it was like a guy that was part virtual reality, part something. And he would turn the car so fast that the occupant in there would constantly be like splat up across the window, you know? And I was like, well, considering the way this guy's driving, oh my God, you know, you're like, there's no way, there's no way that there was just a human sitting there just kind of doing all this jig jagging thing. And, and who flies like that anyway? Yeah. You know, we're trying to get from point A to point B. We ain't just trying to sit there in the sky and just go, okay, let me see what I can do now. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I want to ask you, we're going to get to the app in just a moment. Um, whistleblower, do you feel that's the right label for you? No, I'm not a whistleblower. I'm, I'm not trying to give out any classified information. I'm just trying to let, for me, the biggest thing when, when James first came to me, it was tell us, tell us, tell us what it's like to work in the task force. And so even when you hear me talk in the video, this is very specific. I sit there and I say, I'm here to tell you what I can from an unclassified perspective. And I say, I supported the task force and Jay Stratton even called me up and said, what the hell are you talking about? And I thought he was mad because I was on the show and he wasn't mad about that. He goes, you didn't support the task force. You were in the task force. Remember we invited you in through the door. He said, I may not have known Sarah again, but I knew you and I talked to you almost, almost every day. And I was like, all right, all right, all right. Uh, next time I'll tell everybody I was in the task force, but the way I felt was like, um, cause I mean, I was interacting with them if not every day, at least several times a week. And so whistleblower. No, I'm all I'm trying to do is let everybody know that we were doing our darndest to protect those pilots, figure out what was going on. So we could put a, a, a report together to show, Hey, there's something that we need to be paying attention to because those pilots were getting worried that when they had that accident, they're going to be made to look like idiots where, Oh, it was pilot incompetence when there was actually something else out there. So that's what we were, we were trying to do. And like I said, um, I think I've told this to everybody, although he wasn't my official boss, I say Jay Stratton was the best non boss I ever had because he was constantly telling me and the other guys to lean forward. And he said, and if you have any problems, come back to me. Cause I've got the rank to go ask the right questions, you know, and figure out what's going on. And then he said, and then he would get us together and then we talk. And I, I, I, I can't say the same for arrow because like I said, the moment that they didn't invite us into the group or tried to bring members of the task force into arrow, my spidey sense started going off and saying, something's not quite right with this group, but if you're asking me to help him, Jay, sure. I'll help him. And then when they started blowing me off, I was like, okay, they're, they don't have the same mission as what we had when we were with the task force. Cause the task force was about the pilots. This to me, arrow is about something else. Yeah, no, I would, I would agree with that. And on Jay Stratton, um, for a start, tell him I'd like to speak to him. I think a lot of folks would, but more people I speak to and the more people I hear, they say Jay Stratton's the guy, Jay Stratton across so many aspects of the UFO topic and organizations that happen in the background and in the foreground. You mentioned Unhidden, Jay Stratton's just signed on, I think as a, as a director. Um, I know he's on Unhidden and I know he's doing some other things. Yeah, that was just recent. Like he seems to be someone with such an influence across this topic in a positive way. Um, that I suppose we'll find out more when his book comes out in the next year or so. Uh, whenever that may be, I'm sure you'll get yourself an advanced copy Logan as well. I hope, I hope. Yeah, you'll be looking forward to that. Um, but I wonder to play devil's advocate, you mentioned in interviews you like to play devil's advocate or had to play devil's advocate speaking to those, those personnel to try and get both sides of the story. So what would you say to folks who are wary of former military personnel? Let's, let's get rid of the term whistleblower because you're right. It doesn't always apply. Sarah Gamm, uh, Lenval Logan, David Grush, um, Jason Sands, uh, any number of whistleblowers, former military personnel coming forward. And a lot of folks are suspicious about the why, the who, the agendas behind it. Is this misinformation? Is it disinformation? Are these people being lied to and allowed to come out into the public? Why now? What would you say to that? It's actually a good question for me. All right. I know about David Grush and I know his story and and stuff, but for me, it's about trying to figure out what's really out there. Think about this from an Intel perspective. You're as an Intel analyst, right? You're there to figure out things. Um, you're there to analyze and figure out what the truth is. So here's this one subject that nobody seems back, back when nobody seemed to want to touch, but now you, you're in a unit where you're supposed to reach out and touch it and find out the truth. All right. Like, remember what I said, when we had this collaborative group, all right, it was the fastest growing group in on the classified channels. All right. Because everybody wanted to know, you know, what's the, what's the truth behind it? Is it ours? Is it this? Is it this? So all we're, all we're trying to do is, I'm not trying to say it's us. I'm not trying to say it's this or anything. Um, we just want to pull back the onion layer and figure out what is really going on because it makes you wonder again, it's when you ask questions in this particular field, you don't necessarily get answers. You get more questions. So my first question was again, Hey, if, if they're trying to hide, why are they turning on their lights at night? If this is a safety thing on the range for our pilots, why is nobody addressing it as a safety thing? Hmm. You know, if, if, if, if, uh, any other place you go to people would be, oh my God, let's get the, all these things in there to figure it out. So I thought when this is going to show how big my head is. I thought when I got into the task force, I was going to be the one to like blow this thing wide open and figure out. Yeah, that's what's going on. And the more, the longer I was there, I was like, I remember Jay laughing and thinking I was kind of being, I was kind of involved. I was like, I was like, I am, I said, I am frustrated. I thought, I thought we'd be beyond this by now. At least figure it's one thing out. And he goes, he goes, you're in the same boat, the rest of us are, we're all trying to figure this out. So us coming forward, especially for me is to let, let everybody know, we did try to do the right thing while we were in the task force. We're still on it. We're still trying to work with others to figure out what's going on. Why? Because we don't see enough people doing it. All right. So if we can, and, and, and you try to find that, that one cause that, you know, you can contribute to, well, I think it was, um, Robin Williams, Dead Poets Society. All right. You got to find the, the one, if you're in an orchestra, you got to find that one thing that you can play that's better than anybody else that can fit into the, into the course. Okay. So me doing this outside of the task force, this is my one thing that I feel I can contribute to. I think I can think outside the box long enough to build a device, um, that people can use to go after and find the truth. I think I can talk to people like you, tell them, tell them the truth. If you don't have to believe it, but the hope is that I will gather enough information for you to take a step back and go, oh my God. Someone said at the end of the day, what is it that I would really like? I told him, I said, I would like to collect enough information that Neil deGrasse Tyson and Mick West wouldn't have a word to stand on. All they could do is go, okay, we got nothing, you know? Because for everything you throw at them, they've got some answer, you know, whatever, you know? So that would be my, that would be my goal. But at the end of the day, it's all we're trying to do is let you know that we're trying to do our best. We're trying to find out the truth, just like you are. It's just that we've been blessed enough to have more insight than most. And we're trying to use that insight to support the general public in figuring out what is going on in the skies around us. Because I've, I've seen some of these people that have gone into mental health and, and, you know, start acting weird. And you're sitting there going, wow, look at the way this has affected that person. And it's because the not knowing and the frustration and whatever. And if I can help add a little bit to that, to where I can help my fellow brothers and sisters and fellow men, then this is the part that I feel I can contribute in. That's, that's why. So it's not a matter of if people actually believe me, I'm not out there for everybody to believe me. I'm out there to find the truth that I can share with everybody else. And because you, you're never, there's people out there that you're, no matter what answer you're going to give them, you're never going to please them. They're, they're going to be, you're, no, you're this, no, you're that. I've heard all the stuff about Lou. I mean, I've heard all the stuff about Jay, bad things that people are trying to say and whatever. And I'm like, you don't even know the guys in the world. Where are you getting this from? And then when I dig, there's some guy out there pushing, you know, all this negative stuff. And I was like, and it finally dawned on me, they don't really know anything about anything. They're just trying to get viewers. Yeah. So that's the best I can tell you. No, I think that's very well put. And the UFO topic, if you remember the meme that went around a few years ago about which cult, what color is this dress? And some, it was gold and blue or white and black or red and I'm colorblind. So for me, anyway, I was like, I don't know. Like everything is an optical illusion to me. If you ask me what color it is. Okay. But I think just that in itself, people were so sure and you couldn't convince them otherwise, either way, it doesn't matter. And the UFO topic and so many other topics are like that. And it's probably took me the almost five years of doing this podcast. To get to this point, Logan, I'm going to steal 30 seconds. Just to mention, this is for the first time. Everyone likes to try and contribute something. And we're going to talk about your contribution in just a moment. I've done the podcast now for almost five years. And something I worked on towards the end of last year is about to launch on the 15th of January through the platform Wondery Plus as a new podcast. It's a limited series. And I was just the host of it for the company that asked me to do it. And I was really honored they asked. And it's me and a co-host, Elle Scott. And she is brand new to the UFO topic. She's a newbie. She works in podcasting, but doesn't know anything about UFOs. And we've taken the Rendlesham Forest incident. Now, the series is called Encounters. People can go and search it. And the reason I was interested in doing it, and I get offered this kind of stuff, not all the time. I'm not being big headed, but people offer me, will you come and speak at this? And I think, you don't want me. There are so many better people out there to speak to than me, or that could do presentations better than I can. And I can recommend all kinds of folks, but I think I'm not bad at this podcasting. And what intrigued me was the idea I could sit for a series on one particular incident with someone who knows nothing about UFOs, not an expert, not a researcher, not a scientist, someone who's just like UFOs, really, but keeping open-minded. And we go through the Rendlesham Forest incident. We've got Nick Pope, Ross Coulter, and Charles Holt all being interviewed as part of the series. Charles Holt has gone too far from me. Yeah, it was lovely chat. And we take their opinion, and I take her through the story as best I can. And you've got a newbie sitting there challenging me, but I'm challenging them to say, you know, think about this. Why would this happen? And it's a really interesting series. I've not heard the final product, but Encounters comes out on the 15th of January, folks. And I would like to think I can help contribute, bring some new ears to the topic by taking someone through who's a newbie themselves. And you get to hear two different perspectives. This podcast is for folks who are really interested in the UFO topic. Let's be fair. People are going to listen to us who have an interest or are starting to get an interest. That could be for skeptics, or otherwise, or people going, let me hear the newbie, debunk all this. And spoiler alert, they can't debunk all of this. And it's an interesting conversation, an interesting part. And that brings me, Lenvald, apologies to your contribution that you're bringing forward now, not just your knowledge in conversation, but the app you've mentioned that you're developing with your expertise. So can you tell the listeners and viewers about the app? I will, but I just want to add one thing about what you said. There's a guy that I know. He's in the intelligence community, but he's a pilot. And he's like, this stuff is stupid. This stuff is stupid. And I remember, for some reason, we had to talk about it. And I showed him the stuff. And his mouth dropped. And he goes, Logan, you don't understand. I've talked to other pilots about this. And they all agree with me. And I said, based on what you know now, I would really like you to go back and talk to your friends. And he came back and he goes, they finally admitted to me that they'd seen stuff. He said, but the stigma prevented them from saying anything. So he said, he said, Oh my God. He said, you know, what do I do now? And I said, learn. That's what the rest of us are doing. Just, just learn. So now, to my app. My app is named Phenom. So if you see this, that's the app. What I was hoping to do was, between all those different sensors out there, my hope is that we could use this app as a way to collect data. Because a lot of people, when they collect data, if you ask them, they'll say, I saw a UFO. Well, where were you? Well, I was in London. Well, London's a pretty big place. What part of London? And they're like, well, you know, I was over here and whatever. And they can't give you that information. Well, what time did you see? Um, you know, well, the sun was kind of setting, you know, and you got all this ambiguity in there. So I said, what if we were to take all the sensors that are in your phone and use that? So, you know, you see something, we've now got your GPS location. We've got your time. We can take the angle of the phone. We can take all these different bits of information. We can take the sound so we can see if we can catch your infrasound or ultrasound, all these things and bring it back. And now your investigators are having enough information to share with analysts. So I was like, okay, we can do this. Let's take it one step further. What if we were to have teams where you and you had a couple of guys, you know, four, four or five people with you, you went out to a dinner, you all just left a restaurant, you're on your way home and you see something. Wouldn't it be nice if you could have a team that you would use the app, have it, have it take an image and a video or whatever, and it would instantly go to those other five people that you just had dinner with five minutes ago and see if they can capture it too. Now you can capture that, whatever that anomaly is from multiple perspectives. All right. Now you take it even further. There's other apps out there. Nanu is created in England by a guy named Nick Martin. All right. And so if we have a common database, if we're really about trying to find the truth, it's not about hoarding the data. It's about being able to bring it and say, hey, someone used your app, England and Nottingham, and someone was using Nanu in Newcastle and they all saw the same thing in the sky. Now we've got enough information to bring together to collectively say, okay, we saw this thing from multiple perspectives. So it ain't swamp gas. It ain't all these other things that people may say it is. And now we start trying to figure out what it really is. The other thing too is what's up with the lights? That's one of the biggest thing I keep getting. What's up with the lights? Do the lights mean something? Is it a communications feature? Is it just an odd feature of the way their engines work? I don't know. But the idea is all these different things collect the data and then start looking. If you can get enough data, what you really want to do is get the outliers. Concentrate on the outliers and bring that back to academia. Bring that back to what I call the gray beers like Jacques Vallée and the older guys. I'll put off whatever. Nothing against them being older, but just they've been around a while and seen a few things so they can look at it. And then you have them do the study and take it to the rest of the community and share it with people like you. So you guys can now get the word out. Hey, there's a new discovery. Here's what we can do. They just had a a Japanese company using AI over the Nazca lines in Peru. They found like 300 more drawings with the AI looking at the Nazca lines. So why can't we do the same thing where we get all the data? We're looking at it first phase. We do our due diligence, look over it. But now this thing is in a database and someone can take their AI to look at it and see all the things that we did not perceive initially with our own two eyes, but have the computer doing. So that's what I'm trying to do. So our app is called Phenom. It's on Apple. It's on, on, uh, um, Droid right now. I'm having a problem because, well, I'm trying to, I've started to go fund me and I'll, if you want to go fund me page, I'll send it to you. Yeah. I'll put that up in the description. Yep. Yeah. Um, what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to raise some money to build a better backend, um, um, for the database management. Um, one of the things I've been seeing is people don't know how to use the app. Um, I thought it was as straightforward as possible. You go into settings, you set up all the stuff that you need, um, you know, whether you want it to use cellular or not, but then there are some people out there, they're there. Yes, that's it. There are other people out there. They're just taking the app and taking a picture of their guitar. And I'm like, do you not know what this is for? Or are you just doxing me to deliberately, you know, cause there are some people out there that for whatever reason don't want anybody to know the truth. And I've heard that they've been attacking other people. So when I get something up on there and it's not, I mean, I've had someone sit there and it was, uh, nothing against my African brothers and sisters, but it was an African guy and it was just his face. And he says, I'm here for the money. And I'm like, what does that mean? You know? So obviously something's getting out there. So I'm going to have to go into the backend and fix some things, but the tool does work. Cause we have had people collect data and now we're looking to try and, you know, we're trying to get family members that when they see something, they all take out their phone, they all capture the data and it doesn't matter if they're really close, but if they're further apart, it's better. But the idea is about the data, what's inside there that we can use that we can share. And we're trying to have a thing. One of the things I've discussed with some people is after academia gets the data, the next thing is to do maybe have provide the data to a bunch of podcasters all at the same time so that you guys now have something to share with your audience and your audience can participate and share from different perspectives. Now, the one thing I want to make sure everybody knows about my app, because I've heard different things when you use the app or at least other people's app, there's the, in the EULA, the user licensing agreement, they will say that anything you put on their app belongs to them in perpetuity. Okay. We don't do that because it's not about us. It's about the user having, he's the one that found it. He's the one that took the picture. So he gets to have all his 15 minutes of fame and everything. All I'm doing is in the EULA, it just says, I get co-utilization rights. And the reason why that is important is because I want to be able to go to all the individuals and say, I need to use this. And I don't want to have to keep going, mother, may I, mother, may I, mother, may I, mother, may I, I want to be able to just grab the data and know that I've got full permissions to do so and take it to academia. And let's, let's get the ball moving. I don't want anybody hijacking me and say, well, it's mine. And I, and I want $50,000. If you're going to get, but use my stuff into your stuff. No, not, not involved in that. You can do the 15 minutes of fame, get on the news and whatever. I will give all that to you. And you can say, I'm the first person to ever catch a really good video of a triangular video. That's wonderful. Not interested in that. All I'm interested in is the data. And at the end of the day, you know, getting to the truth and seeing how it affects, how it affects people. So that's what phenom is about. And if anybody has any questions, my email is a phenomination seven at gmail.com. All right. And trust me, I've got a, I've got a lot of people that are calling and giving me good ideas to put into the app, but I use my own money to put the app together. So now I'm doing the go fund me to say, Hey, I need a little bit of help to do the rest of the story and give people access to the data that they want. But that's pretty much it in a nutshell, Andrew. I think that sounds palatable for a lot of people. And I'm not going to name other apps, and you didn't either, who perhaps have issues or people have issues with how they use data, like you mentioned, and folks will probably know the big one. But that collaborative approach, I think is the best way forward. And that whole thing of it's my app and mine has to be the best and just use this one and slating the competitors isn't the way forward. Like you mentioned, Nanu, I know as a project that's been in the background for quite a few years, Nick spoke to me maybe three years ago about coming on the podcast. And I just know it's, I know a lot of folks involved in it. Um, and, uh, it's just still not quite there for launch yet. I'm not involved myself and I keep myself to myself. But like you say, with Phenom, have you got a timeline for, for like, uh, it's released now? I've got to like a, just kind of soft release, because really what I'm trying to do is get input from people on what I need to include and understanding, like I said, how people are using it. Because like I said, when someone just says, here's my guitar, I'm like, what does that do for anybody? You know? Um, there's a couple where I've gone on there and it's been a helicopter flying by and I was doing an acoustics test on the helicopter because I want to get sound that you can hear and sound that is above and below human hearing so that we can collect all that. I want to know, um, um, I mean, there's all kinds of technologies coming out. Like, um, I've been approached by a law enforcement group and, um, they said, we're very curious about what you're using your app for. And I was like, why, what's the problem? They said, considering what's going on now, there's a good chance that first responders are going to be the first ones to show up to a UAP incident. Do you have anything in there that could help us? I was like, what do you mean? And he goes, well, what if it's dangerous? And I said, oh, okay. So I just had someone come up to me and said, Hey, Mr. Logan, um, I've got a capability that can go on your phone that, um, it's like a poor man's radiation detector. I was like, whoa, let's talk. You know, now I got to get the money to, to integrate that, you know? And then I just had a lady call me from, um, New Jersey and she goes, Mr. Logan, um, I got a question for you. She says, do you know what these things are flying over New Jersey? I said, no, I don't, ma'am. I said, as far as I know, they're regular drones, but there's so much talk that the noise is so high you can't really figure out what's going on. And she said, well, she says, I don't think they're all drones. And I said, okay, what's up? She says, well, I'm, she said in one particular case, she saw one of these drones come down really low. And she said, it sounded like a helicopter. I was like, okay. She goes, well, she said, if you've ever been near a real helicopter, she said, you get from the rotors, you get that whop, whop sound and you can feel it in your chest. She said there was none of that. She said, I thought it, she said to her, it sounded like the sound was prerecorded to give off that sound. And I was like, ah, okay. So one of the things I'm trying to ask people, I said, those of you in New Jersey, start using my app to try and collect that. Maybe we can help solve this problem. If not, if it's really drones or if it's something else. And, um, and I'm open to just about working with anybody collaborating, because I figure we've all got to cross this finish line together. If we're going to make a difference as to knowing what these things are and what their intentions are. And again, for me, there's that deep thing in the back of my head, friend or foe, you know, are they here to help us as some people say, or are they here to destroy us as other people say, and it would be really nice to be able to put some of these naysayers and some of these, um, skeptics to shut up. I, I have a saying, phenom is for the skeptics, the believers and the in-betweeners. Okay. Yeah. And so I've tried to say, cause it will, the idea is it forces a conversation for us all to come together and go, yeah, what is that? That, that's not something normal. So that's, that's pretty much where we're, where we're at, but I'd love to talk to people. If I can engage with people and find out more, especially more about how I can improve the app and how I can work with other people. Um, I think when Nick, Nick and I talked, um, the big thing that we said we were going to do, um, after we've gone through some development is make sure that we have a common database so that we can, um, look at the data together and see what he's got, what I've got, and then go, Hey, these two things match, you know, your chocolate looks good with my peanut butter. Let's put them together and, and go talk to the right people. And I think that's kind of where we've left off, but I'm hoping that we're both going to get there and be able to do something with the data that we have. Nice. And we're going to run out of time soon, Logan, cause you're a busy man and stuff to do. And you've been on with me nearly two hours, but you did mention those drones and I'm glad you did. You say, and I think similar to myself, I'm guessing, and I'm going to ask you, uh, you don't believe they're anything NHI necessarily and appear to be regular drones. I've shared my opinion plenty on here. That splits opinion because some folks believe these are NHI. Other folks think they're prosaic. Then you've got the in-betweeners. Why, why are you coming down on the side of likely just regular drones? Well, I haven't seen anything that jumps out that says it's NHI. What I have seen though, is I've seen some incongruencies in the way this stuff has been reported. Like the first thing that came up was, I think it was the white house with John Kirby said, these are manned aircraft. All right. I was like, okay, then if they're manned aircraft and they're causing a disturbance, scaring the crap out of the general public, tell FAA to call them up and say, cut this crap out, you know, get them out of the way. That didn't happen. Then all of a sudden DHS came by and said, these are just, um, they're, they're regular drones that are flying around. I was like, all right, all right. Then they said a drone crashed at a, at a mall. Well, the, they said it's a regular drone. So I'm thinking DJI Phantom, you know, Mavic, whatever. Some guy was on a train going past a place where the drone crashed. This drone was as big as a car. So I was like, so someone's misleading some doing something. Cause when you hear the term, it was just a regular drone. You're thinking something small, prosaic, whatever. Yeah. Not something that size. Now I tend to think that there's probably someone doing a test and people being lazy as they are, not all the proper communications is, is getting through so that we really know what's going on. So right now I have no indications that there is any, any NHI, but that's why I would like people to use my app so we can figure out if there is really something there. Um, you know, I've had one, one, one police officer, law enforcement guy come up and said, what I saw did not look, look like it was a regular drone, but it could just be a differently designed drone. I don't know. So let's get some data and collect and see what it is for real. Logan, what I'd love to do then is get you back on soon. And I've got loads of listener questions we won't get to today. Some of them I've, I've managed to work into the body of the interview. Others I haven't gotten to. Um, and we could also maybe go through some of the, some of the data from the app, some of the, the site and some of the pictures I've got some of the more interesting stuff. Yeah. And do you know what I was going to say at the time, you could get a lot worse than a picture of someone's guitar. Let's be fair. Um, so hopefully, hopefully you get something built in to help out with that. Um, but Logan, once again, if you want to just give the name of the app and the email address for folks to get in touch with you. Okay. So the name of the app is Phenom, just like how it says here. And usually if you see this emblem or logo, you'll know that you found the right one. And my email is Phenomination7 at gmail.com. And I, as I said, I'll, I'll send you the, uh, the, uh, link to my GoFundMe. Awesome. I'll, I'll, I'll, uh, again, a shout out to wives. My wife said, my wife says, I don't mind you doing your hobby. Just don't let us go broke doing your hobby. So that's why there's a GoFundMe. Yeah. I, I, I can attest to that. Trust me back in the day. Uh, yeah. You know, laptops and microphones and all that aren't cheap, but I'm sure the software and everything isn't either. So, uh, Logan, brilliant talking with you. Thank you so much for all your time. And folks, uh, go check out the Phenom app. Uh, check out Encounters on Wondery Plus, selfishly as well, if you're listening to this past the 15th of January. That's all for this episode of That UFO Podcast. Thank you so much for listening and watching. If you enjoyed the show, please follow, subscribe, and leave a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps others find the show. 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