(Pt.1) Secrets, Stigma, and Sightings: Chris Lehto on the UFO Battlefield

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One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you are drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business. Whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. So you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. My new book, Atlas of Unidentified Flying Objects, is now available to pre-order wherever books are sold, including Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and Waterstones. Explore the UFO phenomenon through 34 cases from throughout the world, with accompanying pictures and maps in a beautiful hardback edition or download for your Kindle. Links available in the podcast description below. So, hi everyone, and welcome back to That UFO Podcast. And very quickly, before I get into today's show, I just want to let people know this weekend, the 9th and 10th of August, the website, That UFO Podcast, is going to be offline just while it gets a few bugs ironed out. And the new store is going to be up and ready as well. So thank you to Glenn, who's helping me out with that, dropping his name in there. I'm sure he won't mind. And also, you can pre-order the book, folks. If you're on YouTube, it's over my shoulder. It is now due out mid-September, so thank you to anyone who has pre-ordered. Links are in the description. There should be a QR code down below as well. But otherwise, let's get on with the show, because joining me as a returning guest to look at a lot of the news stories from this month and previous and get his unique take on things. He is a retired F-16 pilot and host of the popular YouTube channel, The Leto Files. Returning to the podcast, Chris Leto. How are you, Chris? Yeah, great, Andy. Thanks for having me. Good to see you again. Good to have you back on. I think this is your fourth appearance, if I'm right. I think you had a 2021, two in 2023. I was just checking before, and that's you back on after a two and a bit years away from the podcast. But you've been busy yourself, Chris, and there's a lot to talk about. You've got a unique perspective, I think, given your background as a pilot. And a lot of the work you do on your YouTube channel, even I feel as I watch it has changed over the years and in various different ways. But before we get to all of that, I want to know, how do you follow the UFO topic right now, given your own unique perspectives and experiences? And what's your take on where things are at? Yeah, I think maybe like a lot of people disenfranchised with the disclosure movement or frustrated with it. I was very excited a couple of years ago, especially when David Grush first came out, although I was very angry with his statements that saying that basically there was this hidden long-term crash retrieval program, kind of what a lot of people suspected. And then I assumed wrongly, I guess, that we would see massive progress. And I guess while we have seen progress, as suspected and as many commenters wrote on my channel, as well as I'm sure you saw, is that we're not going to see any real major progress. You know, it seems like there's always something, some big breakthrough right around the corner and then it happens and then nothing changes. It's kind of, that's kind of the general flow. But, and yet again, we're seeing more breakthroughs. You know, I've been really interested in Burleson, Representative Eric Burleson's statements, you know, that basically he argues we're going to get disclosure. Essentially, that's what I've seen from a few of his tweets lately, his expos, is that now we're finally going to get the truth. You know, and I think we've heard this before. But is it different? I don't know. So I guess I take a tempered view on the whole subject. You know, like you mentioned there, 2021, we've been communicating and, you know, I've been a member of your patron that you have of mine as well, I think, for the past four plus years. And so we've kind of followed along this topic over that time. I'm going into my fifth year, actually, in this topic. And it's just a very difficult topic. You know, I think what we hope for with disclosure would ultimately change the face of the earth. You know, if you think about it, it really would be just a huge, massive change if we did find out the truth, and the truth is, as we suspect, I believe you suspect, that there is these underlying crash retrieval programs. There is non-human intelligence on the planet, has been for many years. If that is true and that were to come to light, then I really do think that the face of the earth would change and you'd have a serious change in the order, you know, the systems in place that are currently on the planet. And now I don't know if we're ready for that, to be honest. I don't think that sort of rapid change is necessarily what everyone wants. You know, it may be what I would want. You know, I love, I don't, I wouldn't say things burning to the ground, but I do love seeing systems change rapidly. I kind of have an anarchist bone in my body. But I think in the general scheme of things, even if it takes a generation or two generations before we get some sort of disclosure or understanding, I'm fine with that. You know, I've kind of come to peace and I'm trying to find my own truth. And I've kind of changed lately where I don't, I'm kind of done ambulance chasing. You know, for a while I was just following the day-to-day news of the UFO topic and I was getting a lot of traction. People enjoyed, you know, coming and checking into my channel and seeing what had happened lately. But I just found it's, I couldn't do it mentally. You know, it was just too tough to keep up with the, with all the ups and downs and the, and the, and the promises of disclosure and then the, the letdowns. So now I'm kind of just interested in the, the true nature of reality and kind of going the next step, looking at the next level of the investigation and trying to see through the cracks to not necessarily break open some sort of catastrophic disclosure, but to really, I guess, in my own, in my own mind, figure out what's going on. So I'm interested in stuff there to pick through. You mentioned you were angered at Grush's statements. Is that around the fact that he's come out and said what we suspected with those crash retrieval programs? Yeah, it was just so, and, and it was so blatant, um, how it's been done. Um, cause originally my whole life, I just believed the mainstream narrative. You know, you couldn't, you can't travel faster than the speed of light. Um, our, our science has basically reached kind of the pinnacle of understanding of physics and the natural world, um, which now I just think is utterly ridiculous, but I did believe that, you know, and, and when I, when, when Fravor first came out, it was like, oh, maybe it's possible, you know, cause he was a fighter pilot really spoke to me in his, um, in his testimony on the tic-tac really, uh, he seemed so credible to me. And I, I had, I had met so many people like him and followed people like him as leaders and commanders. Um, so I see no reason for him to lie. And I think his, you know, his perspective on what happened is probably better than anyone else's. You know, anyone else that could have been there, David Fravor would be the ideal observer. You know, he would know everything at that point. Um, at least most things that, uh, you know, your average top secret fighter pilot would know. So really David Fravor kind of opened the door to me just mentally that could this even be possible. And then I started looking into it and interviewing people and I'm sure you've interviewed probably hundreds of guests and you just see the suffering they go through. You know, they, they see something to them. It's real, even they get multiple witnesses around them and then they're just completely ostracized by society, you know, and they're told they're, they're wrong. They're told they're idiots. And it just, it really inflames the part of me that cares about truth of the, of reality, truth of the world. You know, um, the air force beat into me like integrity first. That that's the first core value of the air force, us air force, you know, it's a, it's integrity first service before self and excellence in all we do. But the first core value is integrity first, you know, and that's really saying the truth, even though you don't want to, or it's not, it's not convenient. And so David Grush came out and it just went against everything I'd been taught by the system. Um, that is allegedly perpetrating a lot of these, you know, I would say crimes against humans, crimes against humanity. And so, yeah, I was really mad. I was really angry about it. And that kind of started me on this like six month descent into, I don't know, some sort of Kundalini awakening or madness or something. I don't know. You, you said you got multiple questions on the state of my health and yet it started with that event, um, where I was just really mad. I remember driving and just yelling out the window. So mad for like a few weeks, I was just so pissed, just yelling at the universe. Um, and, um, but yeah, so now I've gotten through that point. Uh, I've kind of come to terms and understood at least in my own mind, you know, how it could be possible, why, why, uh, life on earth is, is necessarily like that. And, and I think why and how this could be perpetrated for, for so many decades. And I kind of alluded it to it before, but I, I look at it as a systems approach. And I think that, you know, the system has evolved over billions of years. It's not like, um, we like to think that, that humans are the center of the earth. And I just don't think that is actually the case. I don't think that's the true reality. I think we're just one perspective in a, in a grand scheme of perspectives in the universe. Yeah. Um, and genuinely, like I said to you before we recorded, a lot of folks got in touch to ask how your health was. And like you say, you had a, you had a moment, uh, back around a year and a half ago, two years ago. Um, and you took some time away, you've stepped away and clearly came through that. And obviously your channel's grown leaps and bounds in that time. You seem much happier in yourself as well, which is, which is great. And when you, when you took your time away, did you stay away from the topic altogether or did you reevaluate and reassess maybe what you thought about the topic in the conversation? Um, I didn't take a topic. I didn't take a break from the topic really, um, physically. I kept at it. And in a lot of ways I was making two videos a week. And for six weeks, I even went to one video every day. Um, so I actually kind of went the other way is I just doubled down and it was very difficult actually. And, and my subscriber numbers didn't grow really in that time. I think people could tell maybe that I was, um, just grinding through it. You know, sometimes you're in a, in a job and you're just doing it because you feel like you have to, I'm sure, I'm sure everybody can relate to that. Um, cause mentally, yeah, it was just not, uh, it was very difficult. And it was also, you know, they put me in a mental institution actually. Um, and so I spent two weeks in this, uh, in Lisbon, uh, uh, mental house and they were giving me very strong antipsychotic drugs, which are super hardcore. I wouldn't recommend anybody. They don't even know how they work. Actually, I looked into it later that doctors don't even know what they do. Um, and they're very powerful. Um, so it was a quite difficult experience and now looking back, I, I don't know, I kind of enjoy difficult experiences, you know, at the time suffering, you complain and it's so hard and in pain, but now I'm fine, you know? So I look back, I'm like, well, what was the point of complaining the whole time? Um, or being so negative about it. Um, I've kind of learned that, uh, you know, everything comes around. You can be in just the lowest low of your life and then a short time later, it's great. You know? And I'm basically got through that time. I changed, changed some things and, um, yeah, feeling great. So it's just funny how life can just totally turn around. And I think those experiences is just part of the life experience, I guess. Um, so I didn't take a break from the topic. Um, but I was, I was tired of it. Um, and like I said, I don't, I don't follow the day-to-day, um, the day-to-day news of UAPs. You know, um, it's like, if you can get, I'm sure, you know, you can just get burned out from this topic. It's so difficult. And God, yeah, I, I am. I get folks ask me how I do it and I can go days and days and days without checking my, my Twitter or the discord or, or the UFO news because I, I have other stuff I'm doing and a life and a job and young children. And, and sometimes I think it's better to step away a couple of days, even doing this podcast like yourself, I do two or three shows a week, but it's nice sometimes to then go in on a day when I feel like it. And I think that can be important. Ah, do you know what? I feel one o'clock in an afternoon, um, got a couple of hours. What will I do? Cool. Let me jump onto X. I'll go to certain accounts, people at UAP James while, and I'm going to forget loads of course, but people who are really good at keeping up with the news and I'll check what they're reposting. Then I'll go and look into it myself and just kind of follow up things from there. And I think that can be a healthier way to do it because like you say, and there are people who do the day-to-day stuff like, uh, Pavel at Seco Activo, all that kind of stuff is great. Um, very different way I think of approaching the topic. And there's a lot of folks who love that. I enjoy jumping into Pavel's content as well. But for me, it lets me look and go. That was a big story sometimes on the day, but then two or three days later, it's gazumped by something else that no longer seems important. So for me, I don't have the time or the energy to do a daily check-in and daily chasing up of the news. But that retrospective look a few days later or a week later can be helpful sometimes. And it gives you a little bit more focus, a bit more clarity. You get to see some reaction. The dust settles. And I think you get a broader picture of what's going on. And I suppose that leads me to mention that you mentioned Representative Eric Burleson. I've had Representative Burleson on this podcast before, and it's funny seeing him become the new political face of the UFO topic recently, I think, for many. Tim Burchett, I think, was that guy for a while. I know Tim is still involved, but I don't know if Tim's taken a proactive step back or whatever it's been. Eric Burleson's kind of leapt to the forefront because I can't see Tim Burchett as attending, you know, the Nazca Mummies conventions and whatnot, whereas Eric Burleson is. Eric Burleson isn't into this topic for the last 20, 30, 40 years. He is literally learning as he goes. And I think I just saw George Knapp on Weaponized when I was checking that one out today. And he's saying how there's some folks aren't happy that an Eric Burleson is being spoken to by a Stephen Greer. But Eric Burleson has to work his own way through this topic. And he's got David Grush on his staff. He's got a lot of great connections, I'm sure. But it's hard for Eric Burleson to work out. And he has to find his own way, who to listen to, who not to listen to, what in this topic is worth following, what isn't. And I think a lot of folks project their frustrations onto that. Why is Eric Burleson saying this? Why is he not following this up? Why is he doing this? He's looking at this whole open book of the UFO topic. He's a bird's eye view, I think, of it. And he's having to come down and go, what do I get involved in? What do I not get involved in? And again, from your point of view, do you think that's really difficult for a representative Burleson to do that and please anyone in the topic at the same time? Central Connecticut State University. Master your future. Enroll in graduate studies at Central. Vote in Best Graduate Schools by U.S. News and World Report. Apply today. Visit ccsu.edu slash apply. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you are drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process, so you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Yeah, I think it's difficult to please anyone in this topic. You know, I'm sure as soon as you post anything, you're a grifter. Even if you're making no money, you're a grifter somehow. And Burleson, you know, for political gain, I don't think the UAP UFO topic is necessarily a good avenue. Although Tim Burchett has certainly made a name for himself. He seems to have been popular. You know, he has quite a successful YouTube channel. I don't know how many subscribers he has, but I think it's more than us. So I think he does do well with the topic. So maybe it has helped him politically, but I'd say overall, anytime you open yourself up, anytime you enter this topic really hard on either side, you're just going to get hammered by either side. Essentially, it doesn't matter. You know, like Jake Barber came out. I was very excited for Jake Barber to come out, and he was just completely hammered by some elements of the UFO community. You know, who knows who's the actual perpetrators or whatever. Lou Elizondo, I think he's furthered, you know, much of this discussion, and yet he's the enemy to many people who say that they want UFO disclosure. I find that really interesting. So I think, yeah, if you wade into this topic, it's not an easy battlefield. You know, you're going to get shot from all sides. So I think it's amazing. I think it's fantastic that Burleson is talking about this. He always seemed very interested in it. You've watched him kind of progress through the UFO hearings, where it was, you could tell he was a skeptic, but he knew a lot about science. That was my impression. He seems like a very smart guy. He seems like educated technologically. And so he was asking really pointed questions on how this could be possible, how this could be possible. And then I've just watched him over the years. Now he's coming to where he's putting out tweets saying, we're going to get the truth, you know? And so I don't know. I guess I worry for him, but I really am really happy to see it. Cause I always thought from the beginning that he seemed like the guy you wanted pushing this, you know, he seems very, he seems very smart. He started from a skeptical angle and he has access as a Congress person. So I think he's the ideal person actually to, to further this, further the movement. It's funny. You mentioned like four years ago, five years ago, we've been, we've been doing this kind of stuff. Now people have been watching, listening, getting on board. And in that time, people will have left the topic, came back. Folks have been involved in this, I hear, for decades who never leave the topic and everything in between. Lou Elizondo, I think maybe four years ago was the tip of the spear. Everyone seemed very, I can't say everyone, but most people, I think in the UFO community were quite together and they were on board with the Lou Elizondo train and what was being said and done. And it seems now everything's very fractured. So there's a lot less of one direction to follow. And it's very splintered between people who have gone off the academic route, the scientific route. You've got folks who will, will religiously almost cult, like follow certain YouTubers or, or influencers. And, and you've got other folks who have jumped off of different bandwagons. So there just seems to be so many different camps now set up all over. I get how it can be hard for folks to follow. Um, I've said personally, Chris, I don't think I fall into any one major camp at the moment in that respect. Um, perhaps maybe what the Sol Foundation are trying to do, albeit, I don't think publicly there's much of a, we're waiting on them doing X. Well, Skywatcher, we hear they're going to land a craft and summon it in, and I'm going to get to that with you. But Sol seem to be doing their work perhaps more quietly in the background and working away. Is there any one organization that you look at perhaps and think that's one that may produce results? I think the best is, um, multifaceted approach. You know, I think the, the reason I'm optimistic or more optimistic of for today than say 20 or 30 years ago or 40 or 50 or 60, all the times in the past that we could actually see some movement on this is now we, we, we have the internet, we have AI and we have decentralized investigation, you know, there's, there's people like me who have, I have my own weird angle or perspective on it. You know, you have your own perspective. You have organizations like Skywatcher, you have to the stars Academy, which may or may, you know, may come back, Jim Semivan. And so they, they are making a comeback. You have the, the soul foundation. Yeah. UAP disclosure fund. So I, I think there is strength in numbers, you know, and, and information is the weakest power that that's the best part of this whole thing is. You know, hard power, uh, you know, having a, it's why we have weapon systems, you know, like F-16s, et cetera, is, um, it's very hard to beat an F-16, uh, with information, you know, I, you can, um, but it has bombs and guns, you know, it's, it's hard power, um, but information, you know, that's why it's all kept so secret. That's why we go to such lengths to compartmentalize things in the military. That's why, um, we all complained about compartmentalization in, in the military. All of us, anytime we're trying to do an actual mission, real world mission, security would come into, would come in the way. And the reason you do all that is because once that information is out, it's over, you know, it's, it's effectively useless, you know, all of the information you have to build that F-16, right? That's, that's really, um, that's critical or to build that stealth technology. You know, if you know how to target and track a, a B-2 bomber, all of a sudden those billions and trillions of dollars spent to develop and create that B-2 bomber are useless. So the, the information, information is, is the weakest power and that's why they have to keep it so secret, you know, but the good news is it's the weakest power. So once that information is leaked, now it can, it can have very wide ranging effects. So we're basically in an information war, if you think about it. And so decentralization, uh, is the best way it's if you're taught, we're in an asymmetric war as well, where, you know, we argue, or I would argue that the, the nation states or elements of the nation states have all the cards, right? They have overwhelming, uh, information. They, they have the systems. If they've been capturing them, crash retrieval, they have the money, they have the extreme will to, to do violence and all the, the terrible things that we've heard about, um, over the, over the years, but in an asymmetric war, uh, you know, the U S didn't win in Afghanistan. The U S didn't win in Iraq. Um, and they had much less money, much less, uh, organization information, you know, but they were decentralized, you know, how do you fight, how do you, how do you win a war against, uh, millions of ants, you know, or decentralized points. So I think that that's the main advantage now is that there are people like me investigating and information is, is the war we're in. So I think the more of these organizations that are truly dedicated, um, are looking at it from different angles, the better. So I don't, I guess I don't follow any one. I'm happy to see them all actually. And I wish them all luck. I think skywatcher has a very good chance if, if they can, you know, call down consciously or psionically or using a dog whistle, whatever, if they can call down an object and actually capture it, I mean, that would be pretty hard evidence. Uh, I think that could turn the tide. Um, if soul foundation can use all their scientific experience to actually prove that some sort of material came off world, you know, I think that could be a turning point, um, you know, to the stars academy, if they could bring in more dedicated military whistleblowers or they use Tom DeLonge star power and just get a ton of whistleblowers. That'd be great too. Even Steven Greer. I mean, he's brought out tons of whistleblowers and I've interviewed a lot of them and they seem credible and legitimate, you know? So I don't know. I think we're in an information war and I think decentralization is our one strength actually. The information aspect of it's interesting because I think you mentioned earlier, we now have the internet, we now have AI, how, how credible information is, is very subjective because people now don't believe scientists and academics and legal brains and, you know, medical minds on all kinds of topics that we really don't know much about. You pick and choose different sides and I can't see the UFO information war being any different to that. We heard before the Trump administration came in, they were going to make big waves in terms of information coming out and just in the last couple of weeks, J.D. Vance, vice president of the U.S., for anyone who doesn't know, has said he's really into the topic and he's going to, you know, get to studying it and get to the bottom of it. But we've heard this before and this isn't just a Trump administration problem, you know, but they have been more open about discussing this, including in Trump's first sitting as president where he obviously had the interview with his son and they mentioned Roswell. So is this just sound bites for the news? Is this a way to distract from other things that people don't want out just now? Because surely J.D. Vance is someone who has sway and has power and has influence. He is right under the president. And if not him directly, surely he can tap Donald on the shoulder and have a word. I find that a bit of a crossroads in terms of, well, OK, well, you can get this information out there and they're almost choosing not to. In the same breath, Chris, I'll mention Donald Trump last month was on the Earth Pod Force One podcast, which is hosted by Miranda Devine. And she asked him about the New Jersey drone situation, which I like the media is still pursuing this, because this is going back to last year. And as much as it started, people say it started in the east coast of the U.S., it started in the U.K. the month before or two months before, where U.S. bases in the U.K. were having incursions of these drones and then moved over to the states where obviously things picked up in a big way. And I'll just read you kind of paraphrasing what Trump said when he was asked about the drones. I can't tell you who it was and what it was. I'd love to tell you, actually, but it's not up to it's not a big deal. It's not a problem at all. So from that statement, it's a bit jumbled, but Trump's giving you the I know who it is. And we all know how Trump talks at this point, right? And I'm not stupid. No one's stupid listening to this. He's alluded to, I know what it was. I can't tell you what it was. I would love to tell you what it was, but it's not a problem. He did say one of his first actions before he came into the White House was going to be I'm going to tell everyone. Was it day one? He promised who and what this was, and then it hasn't happened. So either Trump is deliberately keeping this back, which may be the case, or if you want to go slightly more conspiratorial with the whole thing, there are powers above Trump who aren't allowing the president of the United States to come out and see who this was. And I wonder where do you fall down on that? Yeah, those are interesting comments, right? It was all just research drones. Isn't that what they said? They came out? It was just research drones, nothing to see here. Meanwhile, at the time, there was no research going on. They didn't say, who's doing the research? How do you have over 50 large drones flying in from the ocean? No one can claim them. It's really interesting comments. And I guess I have my own perspective is I take a systems approach to this whole thing. I think there is something bigger than Trump, and it is the nation, the state. You know, it's basically not one man. The nation is not one man. And if you look, whenever they say we can't release this, we can't talk about that, what's the main argument? And the primary argument is it's for national security, right? National security. And national security does not mean any security of people, right? Maybe all the people together, but the people are expendable. You know, look at any war. You know, I was basically paid to be expendable as an F-16 pilot. That was my job. You know, so look at your national drafts. You know, it didn't matter that you didn't support the war or World War II. You know, they were pulling up your grandparents. Your grandfather probably was drafted to go fight in World War II. My grandfather was drafted, you know. He didn't want to do that. So I think national security is really the main driver for why this is all being kept secret. Because as soon as they admit... Central Connecticut State University. Master your future. Enroll in graduate studies at Central. Vote in Best Graduate Schools by U.S. News and World Report. Apply today. Visit ccsu.edu slash apply. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you are drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process, so you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. And I think it would have to be the president, right? Yeah, the vice president said something that's amazing. He said he wants to get down, look into it, figure it out. I think the only thing that would actually move the needle on disclosure in the U.S. would be the president coming out and saying that, yes, this is true. We have a crash retrieval program. I think that's the only thing people would believe. And even then, they'd probably say it's a psyop. That's the big thing. Even if they come out and say, yes, it's true, what you thought the whole time is true, people will say it's a psyop without a doubt. That's my point now, Chris, that I think no matter who comes out, and it even goes back to the Biden administration, it was probably not as prevalent during Obama, because that was longer ago than even I can, I care to remember. Social media has grown so differently since then. And we've had COVID, which I think was one of the big momentum changers of the 20th century in modern human history, where people are divided with experts now, and experts on both sides are giving opposite information. So I don't think, no matter who came out and said, we have this, it would be questioned. You would get people to believe it. People wouldn't. People would look for the reason behind the reason. And that, to me, is just a strange place to be in. I know the whole, I mentioned a couple of times, the whole Epstein thing doesn't seem to go away, even though I think some folks want it to go away, which seems very, very clear. The UFO conversation, people are saying, could be used. To mask that. But do you really try and draw attention away from the Epstein conversation by going, look, aliens over here? I don't think it's as easy as that, to do that. So it's a really strange one. And I want to ask you on whistleblowers. First off, I know you've interviewed Michael Herrera. I think that was around a year ago. I was just double checking on your channel. For those unfamiliar, Michael Herrera, whistleblower, former US Marine, very quickly in Indonesia, 2009, during a humanitarian mission after an earthquake. Michael claims he saw a large black octagonal UFO in the jungle. It was levitating. There was other personnel with him. He was just there for security reasons. He wasn't involved in what was happening. And he claims to have witnessed a human trafficking operation of sorts taking place, people being taken on board. Him and his colleagues were threatened at gunpoint to not talk about it. And he came out and spoke from, I think, 2023 onwards. Unfortunately, I was really hoping to get Michael on the podcast. And we had been talking the last couple of months. He's come out and done an interview with Ross Coulthart. A really good interview. And I would recommend people also check out Chris. You'd interview with him for a deeper dive into his story. He's now saying he's not going to do any more because he feels he's told his story. He wants to kind of stay in the background now for a while, which I understand. What's your take on the Michael Herrera story? But more largely, whistleblowers coming forward in the last year. Jake Barber, Matthew Brown, since David Grush, we've had Jason Sands, Sarah Gam, Lenville, Logan, perhaps to a lesser extent. What's your take on this whistleblower culture and where it's going? Yeah, I wish they got better support, to be honest, when they came out. I think it's extremely courageous to put your name out there and your story. Especially if you're like Michael Herrera, Matthew Waygant as well. He came out because you know you're going to be treated poorly. And yet they still came out. But I'm still surprised by the vitriol that they're met with when they do tell their story and come out. Is that publicly, you mean from the public? Yes, exactly. And it's also interesting you hear about these whistleblowers when they try and tell their story to Congress. It's very difficult to get in touch with the right people. You know, Matthew Brown, for instance, you know, he talked about he tried for months, maybe longer, to try and tell his story to any Congress people about Immaculate Constellation. And he was just kind of met with nothing, you know, lack of replies. And then when he does go public, people like Mike Herrera are met with, you know, they're liars, they're grifters, even though he's not gaining anything, you know. I don't know what Mike is benefiting out of going public. And he did release a video on X basically saying that he doesn't recommend that whistleblowers come forward, you know. And I don't think that's good either. I think they, we need whistleblowers to come forward, you know, we have to. And if you look, they've tried to protect them with the laws, the UAP Disclosure Act, which was ultimately shut down, or most of it was shut down. But, you know, they understand it, at least Congress people understand that protecting the whistleblowers is required. And yet, they still can't do it, you know. They still just can't make it happen. But I think it's paramount, you know. We have to have the whistleblowers come out. And even if some of them are allegedly paid PSYOPs, which again, what is the benefit, you know? If Mike Herrera is some, I don't know, some agent of the state, what is the point, you know, of him being the PSYOP? And I love the depth of conspiracy theory that people will go to to explain that it's like the government trying to keep us in the dark or distracted by coming up with this other alien invasion idea, or there'll be a false flag alien invasion, and that's how they'll like unify in a one world government. I've heard that as well. But who are you going to believe at the end of the day? So you're just not going to believe any whistleblowers? You know, if the state is perpetrating this, then you have to have people like Jake Barber. Like, they would exist. And we need those people to actually come out and say that, yes, I was there when we collected these UAPs, you know, when we collected NHI. I know how we collected them. I know how we attracted them. You know, those people would exist if that is a reality, that we have a crash retrieval program. So I think we have to have the whistleblowers, but we also have to protect them. You know, if you look, I interviewed John Kiriakou. I don't know if you've heard of him, but he was a CIA whistleblower who whistleblow on the torture that the CIA was doing, particularly in Pakistan, waterboarding, et cetera. And it was found that he was correct, right? They were torturing. And the U.S. literally wrote the Geneva Convention against torture, right? And here is the U.S. doing the torture. And he brought it up. And he said, when he was in the CIA and said, hey, guys, we can't be doing this. It's against Geneva Convention. And they put him in jail. They sent him to jail for two years on some trumped-up BS charge. Well, time goes on, and it turns out he was correct. They were totally wrong going against the Geneva Convention that the U.S. did right. And yet, I don't think he's looked at as a hero by the... Definitely not by the government. I don't think they consider him a hero. You know, look at Edward Snowden, right? He still is not allowed back in the U.S. And they found that his claims were correct in two federal courts. They found that, yeah, the NSA was collecting illegally against all Americans. They also found in a federal court that his releases of information to journalists, by the way, he didn't just put it on the internet. His releases of information can't be proven to have caused any harm. And yet, he's still holed up in Russia. And I'm sure you'll get people that will comment on this saying that, well, he ran to Russia. It's like, well, no, he didn't, right? He was going to Ecuador. And when he was going through Russia, the U.S. pulled all of his passport clearances. So he couldn't travel. He couldn't get on an airplane. They literally locked him in the Moscow airport. You know, that was the U.S. If the U.S. was really concerned about him giving this information to Russia, then why did they lock him in the Russian airport? You know, that just makes no sense. They would have at least let him go to Ecuador, you know? So I think we have a long way to go on whistleblower protection just in general. I mentioned before, it's about the national security. And national security is not any individual person. I think, as we've seen, I believe, in the past, too, I think presidents are expendable as well. You know, JFK was likely killed by some element of the national security state. And you can, you know, there are theories linking it to UFOs, Bay of Pigs, you know, all that. But I think we can all agree that the CIA, or at least elements of the CIA, did have involvement in his assassination. You know, that is the state. You know, that's the national security. Which is interesting because the CIA is directly below the president. They should be working for the president. But again, I think it's a whole system, right? A nation is a giant integrated system of, you know, billions, maybe trillions of different parts. And humans, we're just one element of that. And I think we're not as important as we think we are. So I think whistleblowers need to come out, but the system is not going to let them. And they're going to continue to disparage any sort of whistleblowers. Central Connecticut State University. Master your future. Enroll in graduate studies at Central. Vote in Best Graduate Schools by U.S. News and World Report. Apply today. Visit ccsu.edu slash apply. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you are drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business. Whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. So you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. I feel for whistleblowers. And I've had, I've not mentioned this on the podcast before, but I've had guests who have come on the podcast, whistleblowers, who wanted to come on, but they've asked to delay coming on because they've been looking for a job, because they've left a role in government. And they've found it difficult sometimes to get a job because they've appeared on a podcast talking about an experience or what they've been through. And whether that's through nefarious means, they're being blocked, or just because an employer's found them online on some UFO podcast, they've went, look, I'm better just not doing this for now. I totally understand that. And I've never had a whistleblower or guest come on this podcast and ask for money or an appearance fee. The only, and I'll be honest, the only people who have ever asked for appearance fees were some of the folks from Ancient Aliens when they were doing a tour in the UK. And I politely declined because I didn't. And if a guest needed money for an appearance, I would understand, you know, it's their time and everything. I've never had that before. And like you say, if any of these folks were psyoping and anything like that, you feel for them because they're going through a lot in their personal life as well, even just to gain employment afterwards as well. And a lot of folks don't tend to see that aspect of it. And they just hear the story and then think they go off into their huge psyop mansion wherever they live. And yeah, they've got lovely buffet at the end of an evening and they'll try it well. And it's not necessarily the case for a lot of these folks. I don't know if you've heard recently, I had Ivan Hanel on the podcast. He is the legal representative of Lou Elizondo these days. He said, Chris, that he's got a new client who he hopes will be coming forward in the coming weeks. He says it's a businessman, a patriot. And this gentleman has been exposed to technologies he believes are not of human origin. You've obviously said there you don't think it's whistleblowers are protected. This guy doesn't seem to have a military background. And apparently as a businessman who's been involved, I think the private sector and for some, somehow has come across some kind of technology and wants to come forward and talk about this. And apparently we're going to get it. Do you think it's different for folks who then maybe aren't from a military background to come forward? Is it easier? Is it more difficult? Or do you think it would be the same? I think it should be the same. I guess, you know, I don't really know. I was I have a military background, but I think it's easy to forget that we're all just people, you know, like and you mentioned there when you're looking at someone on online and you see them come out like Mike Herrera, it's easy to like demonize them or call them grifters or call them a psyop and it's very easy to forget that it's not it's not a screen that you're looking at. Right. There's a real person on the other side of that, even your celebrities. Right. I was watching Joe Rogan recently and he said he said the idea of celebrity is just a myth. Like it doesn't actually exist. You know, you build up in your head. And this this idea of some someone or something, right, that there's larger than life or different. But no, they're just a regular person. And the only thing that's different is your perspective on them. Yep. And I think it's easy online to just demonize. It's kind of the same mentality of road rage. You know, it's easy when you're in a car and another car crosses you or something, you know, you get angry and it's not it's not the person or maybe it's the person driving, but it's really something else. Like when you're in a car and you're driving a car, you kind of become something else. It's like a different kind of entity. Yeah, I'll give you that. Yep. So I think it's kind of a similar thing where looking online, it's easy just to to be a troll, you think it's funny or you're offended by this thought that comes out in it because it offends your worldview, right? Because it challenges your your ideas. And you mentioned different camps. Everyone has a different camp or different person they follow. And they they think Stephen Greer is just this evil grifter, you know, or or they think he's the messiah coming to save everyone. The real truth is he's just a dude, you know. Um, so I think it doesn't it shouldn't matter civilian or military, you know, being military doesn't make you better in any way or worse. You're just a person that was also in the military. And I think everyone in the civilian world has the same attributes, you know, like, um, I just have a different life experience. Um, so I think it should be the same. And I, anyone can be courageous. Um, anyone can have integrity at the end of the day and, and people in the military can also not have integrity and not be courageous. So I think either way, you know, I like that idea and I resonate with that about celebrity because I remember 2004, I went to New York to see WrestleMania 20 with one of my friends and we were like, uh, 20 years old, 2004, 18, sorry. I was 18, 17, 18. Um, and we were staying in a hotel quite near Madison square garden. And the day we arrived, it was like the college basketball playoff final, which in the UK, it's crazy to think a college basketball final would be sold out in a 20,000 seater arena. And it was impossible to get tickets and cause, but I don't follow the sport, let alone follow the college side of things. Okay. And I remember I got in like the elevator with my friend to go up to our room and there was these huge, big guys like security detail. And they were standing in front of clearly a basketball player, but me and my mate just walked in like scruffy dressed and his, his dad had booked a really nice hotel for us. And we went into the left or the elevator and the security kind of moved as if like, yeah, don't get too near this guy. No idea who he was. Didn't care. You know, like I'm sure he was someday famous. Could have been LeBron James at the time for all I know. Somebody can clear up exactly who the teams were. I wouldn't have known, but these guys were properly protecting him as if like, yeah, don't come near and I couldn't have get, I couldn't have guessed the guy's name, but to other folks, he would have been like a God, like, oh my, I need an autograph, sign something. And it's just, it's just a person, just a guy. And yeah, it's, it's funny how that, how that happens in life. And I think in a UFO topic, people can get idolized and celebritized and everything else along with it. We're probably seeing a little bit of that just now with, um, a kind of wave of the kind of tech bro podcasts that are, you've just interviewed Jesse Michaels. Um, so you've got these guys, I've got really good backing. They have really nice setups. They can fly guests out to studios. They can spend a couple of days with a guest going around chatting and get a three hour interview. And it's a very different world. I don't want to speak for you, Chris, but at least for what I do, I am literally in a shed where outside my house, about 10 feet, my wife is probably now back home with my three kids from soft play. And I've spent the morning between doing my day job, preparing for this and another interview. So it's like, it's a very different way of podcasting. And that's why I think there's a difference between podcasts and big YouTube shows, which are essentially taken over from TV, but it's definitely digesting this. And I think people like a Jesse Michaels are more like celebrities now than they were a couple of years ago in some people's eyes. So, um, yeah, just, it's just how people are perceived. Um, yeah. But anyway, I want to go on to a couple of listener questions. One second though. I did have a point. It's funny you bring that up because I kind of thought that as well. But then when I talked with Jesse and we had a long interview, two hours and we chatted maybe an hour before, uh, on a previous day and then even an hour after our interview. And actually it's the same, man, he's in the same boat. Like you talked about, uh, wanting to quit just, uh, he wanted to do other videos besides just UAPs. He feels like he's invested. You could feel the, um, the stress of having to do it as a full-time job because he gave up his, uh, he was doing, um, venture capital, uh, diligence. So he gave that up and went all in, um, to podcasting. So no, I think he feels all this pressure of having to keep him put out content. Um, and even the interview we did, if you, if anyone goes to watch that interview, it's in his studio and you see it from the side and it's just like his, it's just his extra room. You know, it's nothing. You look at his videos. It could be a guy just sitting in his bedroom at home, like in his parents. I know it's not going to be his parents' house, but it could be a guy just sitting in his, like a bedroom in his parents' house. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's because it's funny is that's a perfect example because, um, no, he's just a regular dude with the same issues that you and I have. Um, it's really interesting. Yeah. Oh, I bet he pays his bills a lot easier than I do. Um, but yeah, fair play to him. It puts in the work and the effort. Um, yeah. Uh, one more thing I want to touch on. Um, have you, have you ever interviewed Richard Bandurich? No. Uh, so he is the, the CEO of Field Propulsion Technologies and a podcast he was on. It was actually back in December, um, the ecosystemic podcast. Um, and it was like a, a panel podcast. It was two and a half hours long. Hal Putoff was on it, Rich Bandurich and a load of other scientists. Okay. Um, and the episode was titled Beyond Conventional Physics and it kind of went a little bit under the radar. And to be fair to folks in my Discord channel, Chris, quite a few of them over the last few months have said to me, this podcast has a couple of episodes around UFOs, physics, science, advanced science that people are sleeping on and it just doesn't get the traction in the UFO community. Perhaps it should. However, a couple of clips have surfaced of Rich Bandurich from that episode in December. Now he has a background in electrical engineering, mathematics. He spent decades exploring novel propellant free ways to push spacecraft and reported to have held engineering roles at NASA, JPL, Lockheed Martin, and ULA and contributed to DARPA projects. So the guy's got quite a serious background. Um, and on the clips, he talks about studying materials of alleged non-human origin, says they can disintegrate when studied, almost as if they are intelligently controlled and when in the wrong hands fall to pieces. Um, he says some of the material he's studied would cloak itself and try and blend into the environment. He said material would reconfigure itself, very Terminator 2 for me, you know, thinking of that kind of liquid metal type of, type of thing. Um, he said they could tell the material was extraterrestrial because it wasn't just decades ahead, but hundreds of years ahead of what we had. Um, he also mentioned that he had studied how large triangles could cloak and decloak, believing they were projecting what's behind them in front of them, um, and saying that they could actually study it and track them because the projection isn't and wouldn't be perfect. Almost like there was a lag or delay potentially on it. And he doesn't believe whatever entities or groups have that particular technology would want us reverse engineering it as it gives them an advantage over us. And I just thought that was a really interesting clip. Um, like I say, I don't know if you've seen it. It's going about online folks. I'll share it in the description. People should go and check out that, that full episode, I'm sure. But again, you're starting to see people like this coming out, having these conversations. They're still not piercing the public veil and imagination. Cause I think if you put that on 60 minutes in the United States or in the UK on BBC or ITV news, nine o'clock at night, six o'clock at night. It could be a big story yet. This doesn't hit the mainstream the way people like ourselves would like it to Chris. And I wonder what's, what's it going to take for conversations and comments like this, people like Rich Bandurich, David Grush and others to make a breakthrough that stays with the mainstream and really pushes the needle forward. Uh, well, I think the mainstream is changing. You know, we always talk about, uh, look at mainstream media. It's not, it's not television anymore. You know, Steven Colbert, his show was canceled. He was the number one show at that time slot. And you can say, you can argue it's political. It was done for political reasons, but ultimately it does come down to money and they're not able to compete. You know, like you mentioned, you're in a shed, I'm in my basement, Jesse's in his, uh, spare bedroom. We're able to draw, you know, a lot of people look, look at Joe Rogan. You know, he just, it's him and maybe two other people running his whole podcast and he's number one in the world. And he gets numbers that are dwarfing a lot of these so-called mainstream outlets. You know, the, the benefit that the mainstream has is, is it's on everywhere, you know, but not, not like people, my age, you know, like I'm never watching TV. I never see like TV advertising. But when I was in, when I was in the air force every day, like every squadron you go into will have a TV on and it'll be like CNN will be on or Fox news, right. There'll always be some TV on. And I know people may be in there, a few friends in their, in their fifties and definitely sixties, like my, uh, friends, parents, et cetera. They just have the TV on all the time, you know? And I, I think we underestimate the, the effectiveness of propaganda and advertising. You know, everyone knows about McDonald's and Burger King. Like you definitely know they exist. And if you had to go and eat there, you would. Right. But they still, all these companies still spend billions of dollars on advertising. You know, that you definitely have heard of Adidas, right. But they still spend billions and billions of dollars advertising so that you can see that. Right. It, so that there's a reason they do that. You know, there is a definite reason and it's, it works. So the, I guess the benefit of mainstream is that it just is always pumping into the minds of those people, wherever you go. But that is changing. Like I mentioned, um, I think why I'm optimistic is the decentralization of this, of information. Whereas before you could have a few parties, you know, a few centralized parties could control the flow of information where they could just not run that story. Um, they still have a lot of power, but it's decreasing by the day, you know, the more people like me, the more people like you, the more shows that come online, um, the more numbers get drawn away from this alleged, uh, mainstream. mainstream, I think we're just going to see more and more decentralized discussions and it just takes time. You know, I think there's, there's a reason they continue these advertising campaigns for years. You know, the more you see something, the more you start to actually believe it or accept it. So, so maybe there's no mainstream and that it's more of a plural. There's main streams that you could almost, it's almost impossible to break into the mainstream because there are so many different, because you could probably put a Joe Rogan podcast as the mainstream. Um, cause I, I was really surprised the other day here in the UK, um, we've got several news channels that run 24 hours a day, sky news, BBC news, and GB news is the new one. Um, and people will have their different thoughts and affiliation, the same as the United States with different channels and political leaning and whatnot, and what they show you, what they don't show you. Um, GB news is just overtaking the other two as our most viewed or most viewed platform for news. I was surprised to hear it gets 90,000 viewers a day and that's our number one. So with the millions of folks in the UK, I would have thought it would have been in the millions, but no, on, on our satellite TV networks, 90,000 people can now get you the number one news program in the UK above sky and BBC established organizations. And maybe again, that's a shift in public perception, a shift in what the public are looking for a shift in how the public view and consume its news. And it's funny when I go and put fuel in the car in the morning, there's less and less folks going and buying newspapers. And I remember as a kid, you mentioned my granddad, he was a child during world war two. He only passed away a couple of years ago, um, when he was in his, in his nineties, but I used to go in a morning with my grand, I'm a granddad to a local news shop and buy a newspaper. And there would be a queue of people buying the newspapers that generation is gone. And those generations are dying out now because you're, you're now buying yesterday's news. Yeah. Whereas you and me and people listening and watching this, most of us saw that news minutes after it happened. There were camera crews, there were people filming and live streaming, you know, there's a revolution kicks off. There are people live streaming from multiple different angles at the same time. You can watch rocket attacks in, in Moscow and Ukraine and all these different countries around the world moments as they happen. You can literally watch, okay, and attacks, we've seen some of the Israel iron dome stuff on the news and you literally hear it's happened and you're watching for the rockets coming in. So there's no longer a delay in news anymore. People can get it instantly. And I think that can also be part of the reason people move on so quickly from a news story because there's so much news being consumed all the time. So perhaps the mainstream isn't even a thing anymore. And it is multiple avenues of main streams. Central Connecticut State University. Master your future. Enroll in graduate studies at Central. Voted best graduate schools by U.S. News and World Report. Apply today. Visit ccsu.edu slash apply. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you're drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business. Whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. So you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Yeah, no, I agree. Like, I don't get my information from mainstreams. I go to YouTube. You know, I have YouTubers that I trust, and they're accessing X. You know, they go direct to the source. I think a lot of these journalistic outlets will probably be a thing of the past. And I think you're just going to see mainstream dying. Um, the mainstream we consider mainstream. So then it'll be public opinion. And I think, you know, people have been conditioned over their whole lives. Like, like I said, up until just five years ago, I trusted the mainstream narrative, even though it hasn't delivered any real noticeable benefits. You know, we still don't understand, our physics can't even identify what inertia is, right? We, we, we argue, and we listen to these alleged physicists on, on YouTube and TV, et cetera. Um, you know, the, the Brian Greene's, the Sean Carroll's, Neil deGrasse Tyson, these physicists, right? But at the end of the day, they have no idea what inertia is, like why anything has any weight at all. And I think if you, if your physics doesn't know what inertia is, then your physics is definitely incomplete, like from the beginning. Like there's no, there's no way around it. And then they, they proclaim to know the age of the universe. Um, you know, we don't even know when civilization started on earth, essentially, you know, when they found Gobekli Tepe, that pushed the date back like thousands and thousands of years. You know, I think it was 6,000 BC, they were saying, it was like Mesopotamia. And then lo and behold, they find Gobekli Tepe and it's 10,000 BC. You know, so you're talking 4,000 years before they originally thought, um, modern or modern civilization, if you will, actually started on earth. And they did, they, they, they're not even close on that date. And yet they proclaim to know how the universe started, um, how old the universe is. Um, and it's just ridiculous, right? We say that the earth is in the solar systems 4.5 billion years old. And yet the entire age of the universe is only 13.8 billion years, you know, or a little tiny solar system speck of nothing in this giant universe. They argue as one third, the age of the entire universe, it's just preposterous, you know, but that statement I'm saying right now, 99.9% of your viewers think I'm being ridiculous, right? Saying that, um, the universe is way older than 13.8 billion years, that 13.8 billion years is just a ridiculous, uh, preposterous number on the low end. Um, 99.9% of your viewers think that's insane. Right. Um, but I think it'll just take time for that to change for us to understand that, oh, our mainstream science has been totally jacked. Um, our understanding of reality is completely wrong. And by the way, we have been kept in the dark about UFOs for many decades, you know? So I think it'll just take time. I think you've got more support than 0.1%. Uh, I think, um, the way I look at it from a broad picture point of view is, and I'm certainly not a science denier for the love of God before anyone starts picking that up. Right. But through the centuries, so many times in human history, we have believed that X was true. We make a scientific discovery, a scientific breakthrough, and Y becomes true. And that has happened so many times. We were sure we were this. We were sure this was true. We were sure we were the center of the universe. We were sure the sun revolved around us. Everything like that has, has at one point been, no, no, this is correct. And you're crazy to assume otherwise. And yet things have moved on. And I suppose I'll finish on this one before listening to our questions. I don't know if you've heard, um, Neil deGrasse Tyson's recent StarTalk episode. He's got John Kozlowski, the director of Arrow, on. Ah, no, I didn't. Go and at least check out some of the clips online. He's, John Kozlowski is trying to talk about, um, sightings of black triangles. Um, he talks about city-sized objects. He talks about a police officer chasing an orb, seeing a triangle. So, and during the story, Neil deGrasse Tyson is pissing himself laughing at multiple points during the story where Kozlowski has to stop. And Kozlowski's, and I've not heard the full episode, folks, so I apologize. He's trying to be polite and cordial and professional. And it's, it's Neil deGrasse Tyson's show. But deGrasse Tyson is deriding the whole thing. So this, this officer just never got his camera on. He didn't do this. Oh my God. So yeah, carry on, carry on. And just breaking it down constantly. And Kozlowski's, like I say, he's trying to be nice about it and give reasons why. Um, and there's a mainstream scientist, um, who I think many folks would argue hasn't been a, a real scientist perhaps for a long time in terms of what he does. He's more of a celebrity these days. He's kind of moved into that world and he's maybe done his hard work, he would argue over the years. And he's, he's reaping the benefits now as the face of astrophysics. He was named, I believe, one of, if not the sexiest astrophysicist alive, which is, I'm sure he's very proud of that. Um, but yeah, it was disappointing to hear. And I've said before, before I started this podcast, Chris, and, uh, 2017, 2018, around those couple of years before, I was a quite a big fan of StarTalk and Neil deGrasse Tyson. The same. Then as the UFO topic kind of kicked off and got bigger as after 2017, I didn't enjoy when it was discussed how degrading the way are towards the topic. And I'm all for being able to enjoy the conversation. I appreciate folks who aren't UFO centric, um, having, uh, a skeptical look at it, raising an eyebrow, even joking about the subject. I think you've got to do that, but you have to do that. And then bring the conversation back to a place where they can maybe understand and progress and learn a little bit. Someone like Neil deGrasse Tyson for me just doesn't seem to want to. He's got his opinion and he's sticking to it. And again, as a layman, surely that goes against the very principles of being a scientist and surely he would want to go, right. This sounds ridiculous. However, let's go and take a proper look at this. Let's go look at the evidence. Let's go look at the data. And maybe we can find out something incredible that we can look back at 2024 and 2025 and 2017 and go, remember, we didn't believe there was alien life out there. And in 2025 and 26, actually we do know there's life out there and things can progress forward. And that would be another step forward in kind of human understanding. That's right, Matt. It is funny because you bring up historical precedents and which is so accurate. And they all say they know history, right. I'm sure Neil deGrasse Tyson has given many examples of historical events or happenings that supported his views. But what's funny is they don't follow any of the history, right. Nothing is surprising about the reaction from Neil deGrasse Tyson if you look back in history, right. It's always been the case, like the people in power and who had the pulpit, they always mocked and stigmatized the newcomers. You know, they, it was always Einstein. They all revere Einstein, right. Like I'm sure people like Neil deGrasse Tyson, most scientists, I would say revere Einstein as this genius, but he was precisely the outsider that came in, you know, and I'm sure was a initially mocked if it wasn't for Eddington, you know, in 2019, um, effectively proving his, uh, his equations. So it's, it's just funny. And what drives me insane is the hypocrisy. Just like you brought, you brought up, you know, science is about finding the truth, no matter what, and analyzing all options and we're always incorrect. So when you're just shutting down a whole line of arguments, um, and we're still not getting the solutions that w that's what makes me angry is that we've had no breakthroughs, right? Like I made a recent video, um, about five technological breakthroughs, um, and how they're, they've been ignored. But if you look at fusion, you know, Iter where you have these giant tokamaks for 70 years, right. Fusion's always been 20 years away, uh, if you look at cosmology, right. They talk about, I'm sure you've heard the recent crisis in cosmology, but if you just go back two decades, right. It's the exact same crisis in cosmology then as is now. So there is, there's no progress. If you look at, uh, quantum mechanics, right. They say that quantum mechanics, the most accurate, uh, it's the most accurate theory ever. Um, you look at quantum computers, you know, I argue, we're never going to have a breakthrough with quantum computers, just like your fusion. And the, and what I believe is cause your underlying assumptions are incorrect. Right. It, what do they say? Like, um, insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Yep. And that's basically what they're doing. They're doing the same thing over and over again and expecting to get a different result, but you're not going to get a different result. You're going to get the same result over and over again. And that's what science has proven us. If something's replicatable, then it's, it's accurate. It's science. But if you do the same thing over and over again, you're getting the same answer. You're missing out on this whole other solution set of science. And so it's really that hypocrisy that, that just drives me insane. Do you know, um, physicist Brian Cox, professor Brian Cox from the UK famously, he was the keyboardist for the band D Ream for the song things can only get better in the nineties folks. If you haven't heard it, but Brian Cox, incredibly intelligent individual. And again, I really enjoy watching him and speak on, um, on the universe and science and planets, galaxies. He's really great to listen to. He should be really degrading similarly around the UFO topic. And what I find fascinating is he always cites his hero as being Galileo Galileo, who famously it was placed under house arrest by his peers for daring to question that the earth wasn't the center of the universe. Um, the heliocentric model, I think it was, I won't pretend to understand all the, all the ways around that, but that's it. So then you've got a Brian Cox coming out and daring to quit laughing at everyone talking about, well, perhaps there's this something else and his scientific mind just wants to put us under house arrest and not talk about it much like his hero was all those centuries ago. So yeah, science, please, please move on. And I think you've got to applaud people like Gary Nolan, Avi Loeb, Beatrice Villareal, and all those other scientists who are, who are daring to work on this topic, much to the chagrin of their colleagues and peers, um, who many of which don't, but I think more and more folks are starting to come on board with that, Chris. Yeah. Look at how many more people have listened to, to Beatrice Villareal in the last two years. You know, imagine her views, the people that she's reached compared to any one of her colleagues, you know, if you look at their actual peer papers and you can say peer review is, is the end all be all, but how many actually, how many people actually read those papers anymore? You know, you're maybe a few thousand and she's getting hundreds of thousands of views. If you combine all of her, all of her podcast visits, um, you know, so that's where I think it is changing. It is going away from these mainstream, um, educators. I think they call them science educators and Brian Cox is a perfect example, right? Because he's been a huge proponent of string theory. Um, and if you look, string theory is totally bunk theory, right? They can't even come up with a single test to prove their theory. And in my view, like in no way, can you say that science, like it's not science. Like you don't, it's not a theory. They should remove the word theory from string theory because a theory, I think a scientific theory requires to be falsifiable. Like there has to be a way to falsify it and they can't even come up with a test to even test if it's falsifiable or true. So it's, it's totally bunk. Like it's useless. Like he's just wasted all of our time. Like when you say I've enjoyed listening to Brian Cox, that's the problem, right? Is they're very good speakers. Like they're very good at talking and like Neil deGrasse Tyson, he'll talk about, oh, the black hole, you know, you'll be spaghetti eyes, you know, and they'll make up these crazy visions, but we're going to find out black holes are bullshit. Like look at that image they had of the black hole. Right. And they gave all these Nobel prizes and it made worldwide news and they gave each other so many high fives. Right. Imagine you presented that image to the UFO community and we're like, look, we've proven UFOs and you gave them that image and, and it was, and tell them it was made from 70 different actual workshops around the world and fabricated into this one image. Like you would be laughed out the door. Um, yeah, in, in many ways. And I find that too, whenever I approach the UFO community and I make these videos about, uh, the, the, the ridiculousness of our current science world, they seem to have the same skepticism, uh, they don't apply the same eye, right? They have a very critiquing eye to the UFO community, right? Oh, this guy's a PSYOP or whatever. But then if you aim it towards mainstream science claims, they're like, oh no, that's legitimate. And same thing that the scientists make like Neil deGrasse Tyson, Brian Cox, you know, Sean Carroll, Brian Green, if, if all these guys, if they took the same critical eye that they do mocking eye that they do to the UFO community, if they aimed it to their actual own work, to the community, to the, the work that they're looking at, they would get vastly different results, right? So it's just, yeah, it's a completely Hippocratic perspective. That is all for part one. Part two will be out in the next couple of days. You can listen to this episode already in full, ad free, and with no sponsors for less than the price of a coffee. If you head on over to Patreon or Apple, you can subscribe to the podcast for less than the price of a coffee or take up the two weeks free trial that are available on those platforms. You can head on over to Spotify and search That UFO Podcast Premium and get access to this episode in full. 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