(Pt.2) In-Depth with Richard Dolan: Underwater Objects (USO's) & more

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Udo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Udo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business. Whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. So you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Udo for free at Udo dot com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. I'm Richard Dolan, and you're listening to That UFO Podcast. Richard, so here we are in part two. Time travel and all that stuff. Your USO's book came out now, was it five, six months ago? Or is my time going off? Yeah, I think March, end of February, early March of 2025. So we're in November. So yeah, about eight months. You announced at the time and beforehand to me and other folks it was going to be a trilogy. That there's going to be three volumes. Is that still the same? You've mentioned part two is about to be published. How has that gone? And what can you tell us about the second volume of the series and when can we expect even a third part? Happy to talk about it. Yeah, the second volume. So all of the cases were written when I published the first volume eight months ago. So that's close to 700 total cases, and I had to break those into three volumes. It was too much content. So I organized the first volume into appropriate chapters with its own introduction, which gives historical context and kind of extra analysis, I guess you could say. And I've done the same now for the second volume, and then the third volume absolutely will come out. And I expect the third volume to be out in the first half of 2026, and then it'll be done. So the first volume covered from the earliest USO cases up to 1969. And of course, USO is Unidentified Submerged Objects. We're talking water-based UFOs. And what I've tried to do for this study is to try to put together something like a complete history of the phenomenon. Of course, it can never be complete. I have no doubt in my mind that there are multiple orders of magnitude of actual encounters and cases beyond what I've captured, what I've collected. But they're just, they don't get reported. Or I discarded many cases from the collection just because they were too threadbare. There just wasn't enough to go on, and I didn't want to include them for that reason. But that doesn't mean they didn't happen or they weren't real. There's a lot that was left out. But I've got 700 cases. So the first volume goes up to the end of 1969. And the second volume, which is about to come out, it's being formatted and prepared for publication right now, that covers only two decades, only 20 years, the 1970s and the 1980s. That's it. It's like the middle child. It's the one that I wonder if that will get the least amount of attention because it's just kind of in the middle. And, you know, there'll be a lot of people interested in the earliest USO cases, and there'll be a lot of people interested in contemporary ones. Will they be interested in the 1970s and 80s? I hope so, because the fact is that the 1970s, particularly up into the early 80s, was an absolutely insane time of sightings on so many levels. A, it was the most dense sightings of any decade, the 1970s. I have more USO cases from the 1970s by far than any other decade, even though that's all pre-internet era. Like, you've got to ask, like, how would people have reported these cases? How have they come to us? Well, the 1970s just blows all the other decades away. Now, a lot of those cases were reported online years later to various online websites. But still, you know, I look at that and I think, what was going on in that decade? So that's an interesting question right there. What was it about that time? And then there were other things about the USO phenomenon that became very noticeable during the 70s and 80s. One of the main ones was the fact that sightings at around that time, actually starting in the late 1960s, started going to predominantly nighttime encounters. When I looked at all of the encounters that I collected of USOs up until around 1967, 68, it was almost exactly 50-50 of daytime versus nighttime encounters. In fact, I think it was 51% daytime, 49% nighttime of the cases that I was able to determine. Was it, you know, in daytime or nighttime? So, and then it just goes to three quarters nighttime, almost with the snap of a finger. It's very bizarre, very noticeable. And whereas military cases were even more dominated at night. Since the late 60s, early 70s, military cases are nearly 90% nighttime when they encounter USOs, almost 90%. It's extraordinary. So these are trends that were noticeable really for the first time in the 70s. It's a signal that something has changed in the behavior of these objects. They're adapting to us, is what I think. Also, enormous percentage of electromagnetic interference cases during the 1970s compared with any other decade. And not only the gross number of them, but the percentage of cases that involve EM interference is vastly higher. So there is something very significant happening behind the scenes that, to this day, I think we still don't really have a full explanation for. But these are questions that I do explore in the book. And they kind of led me into questions of, like, who are these beings? Like, what are they really all about? Why do they act the way that they do? It led me into trying a kind of behavioral analysis of these beings through the behavior of their craft, as reported in these encounters. And I do think I've come to some provisional conclusions about that. So that's an interesting thing. And then just the cases themselves are every single one of the cases in the second volume. I mean, you could almost make like a real – you could make a movie out of many of them, like a full-length feature movie about many of these cases. And you could – about a lot of the other ones, you could make a pretty good half-hour, you know, storyboarding of it that would be full of drama and intrigue as much as any good entertainment that you'd find on television or on the web. Like, these are amazing stories. They're fascinating. Sometimes they're disturbing. Sometimes they're riveting. Sometimes they're mysterious. It's a part of our history that I think all of us, even those of us who've studied the UFO subject for a long time, I don't think we know most of these stories. They've found – slipped by us. So I was really excited in collecting them and then in analyzing them, which I've tried to analyze every single one of them, and in retelling them in a way that I felt that they needed to be retold and the way they deserve to be told. I wanted to be a good analyst, but I also wanted to be a good storyteller. These are cases that deserve to be told well, and I hope I have done that. As with the first volume, I have a great illustrator. That's Alan Levine, who did a number of really great illustrations of these cases. They will go in the book just as volume one did and as volume three will. And I'm excited about it. I think it's – I might like it more than the first volume. I don't know. Each of these little books is like a little baby to me, and I love them all. But this is a good one. I believe that people will really enjoy reading it. I really believe that. Well, obviously, when it comes out, I want to get you on to discuss the book, promote the book, share more stories when I've actually managed to read it myself. But I just want to ask one more thing on the book. Is there any kind of pattern or number of times where entities or beings are seen along with you? So, just given the nature that it involves water, underwater, do you find it's less involving entities and just more objects and craft? Or what happens there? I have statistics on this that I gathered for the three volumes. So, I'll just speak for that. Roughly 5% of all the USO cases that I have involve either – I think it's a little more than 5%. Either involve the sighting of a being or an alleged being, let's say, or missing time. And there's a little bit of overlap between those, but actually not a lot. So, the cases where there's missing time, which I think are very significant, usually do not include the memory of a being. It's just, I lost an hour. I lost two hours, that type of thing. And I don't know what happened. When there are sightings of beings, frequently, not always, a lot of these sightings are of beings that look human. They look every bit as human as you and me. But there are cases where people will claim to have seen a craft maybe emerge from the water or descend low directly over the water, where at times you could see silhouettes through windows, if that's what they are, of beings that did not look human. So, there's a couple of those. By and large, I have to say, like, it's – I don't – they're not overwhelmed with stories of little gray aliens, these beings, in the USO encounters. One from the 1970s, in fact, was described by one of the few abductees who actually remembered what the beings looked like in the USO cases, a South American concert pianist player, actually, a very highly distinguished woman. She described them as rat-like. Her name was Lulee Oswald, and it took place in the 1970s. Is it true? Well, I mean, she's a legitimate, serious, highly accomplished individual who had – went through hypnotic regression and had an incredible encounter visually with a USO, with another individual in a car. They had missing time, and she remembered these supposedly rat-like beings that took her on board. And they were not nice. They were not friendly. What did she actually remember? Who really – you know, when you deal with abductions and you deal with encounters with these beings, I try to remind myself there – I think there's a lot of cognitive manipulation going on when we – when people encounter these beings. It certainly seems like they have – first of all, if they have an ability to communicate with people telepathically, which is what is so frequently alleged by witnesses, happens all the time when they have these encounters, you almost always hear the idea, the comment that they – I heard them in my mind. I can't even count how many times I've come across that. So if they can do that, maybe they can manipulate our minds as well. And so I sometimes don't really know what to make of the physical descriptions that people will offer when they talk about an abduction. I'm not inclined to disbelieve them. I'm inclined to believe them. But we should keep in mind the fact that there might be some kind of manipulation going on, just so that maybe they don't want you to see them as they are. Or who knows? I definitely believe, you know, in looking at the behaviors of these craft in general, my conclusion at the time – at the current time – is that these beings have little to no interest in communicating with us. And that they are definitely interested in monitoring and tracking us. They definitely have had to adapt to our growing technological capabilities, which are quite substantial over the last century. I mean, if you really – it's only a couple of generations. So they've had to adapt to a human species that, you know, once upon a time we did not have submarines, and then we did. And we did not have sonar, and then we did. And we did not have aircraft carriers that could go across the ocean powered by nuclear energy. Now we do. Nuclear submarines that could stay under the water basically forever. Now we do. Deep, deep submersibles that can capture more and more of the ocean environment. Now we do. We're getting more and more involved in all of these things. Our capabilities are expanding all the time. And my realization is that any intelligence that's down in the waters, and I'm convinced they are down there, they're not static any more than we are. They may be at a very, very advanced technological and scientific level. I'm sure they are. But they still have to adapt to our changing abilities. And I do think that that's something that's important to them. I think that actually helps to explain, in part, why they switched to more predominantly nighttime sightings after the late 60s. That was in the late 60s that our satellite capabilities became way more advanced. And, you know, we only got the first satellite in Earth orbit in the late 50s. So it's not like the Earth was blanketed with satellite tech. But by the late 60s, we were starting to turn a corner and have very, very excellent coverage. And maybe that's an explanation. So they've had to adapt to us. And I'm not sure how I got here. Oh, we were asking about, you were asking about sightings of beings and the like. But I think that they are not interested in talking to us in most contexts. I mean, maybe on a limited basis, there can be limited communication. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you are drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business. Whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. So you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. But it would almost be like us trying to talk to a human ancestor from a million years ago. You know, those people were smart. They were discovering how to control fire. And they were the smartest animals on the planet, even at that time. But could we really have a conversation with them about many things? No. We really wouldn't be able to. What could we explain to them that wouldn't almost destroy them psychologically and in their development? And I've come to suspect that these entities, I mean, you think about how they can probably perceive space and time very differently than we do. So they might be able to think much faster than we can think. You know, we have language, which is a powerful tool for us. And it would allow us to run circles around our human ancestors who might have had proto-language but might not have had the sophisticated ability to deal with ideas and concepts and causality in the way that we can because we have this amazing tool called your language. But what if these other – and that language allows us to think faster and to think more deeply on a lot of matters because we have conceptual tools that allow us. So if you encounter a being that's got, like, say, a brain that's maybe 20% larger where it counts than ours or more or, you know, computer-enhanced, they could probably think faster. They could probably go deeper than us. They probably have an understanding of space and time and causality in ways that we just can't really comprehend. You really have to ask, like, what could they talk to us about that would be practical for them or us? It might not be that easy. They might not have an easy way to communicate with us. And I suspect – because when I look at the behaviors of these craft and how they interact with us, whether it's military or not military, they – especially with the military ones, like, they will come up to the military vessel. They will – they will shadow it for a while. They will move in closer. And then just when they are closest, they seem to be able to disable our ability to track them. So radar goes off. Weapon systems go offline. All kinds of other communication systems will often go offline. It's as if they engage in a policy of data denial of us, which I think is what they are doing. I think it is a policy. So they allow us to see them up to a certain point but not beyond that and not to record them beyond a certain point. I think that they have a lot of control over that and – but they don't want to talk to us. They just want to track us. That's what it seems to me to be. That doesn't mean that they have a hands-off attitude with our society. There's all kinds of possibilities that are involved with that, including – let's just put this out on the table – some level of infiltration or coordination or management. It's not impossible. It's not like it's definitely happening. But if you were them looking at humanity, this volatile but fragile civilization that we've built, you might be interested in getting in on the inside and guiding it in a way that you think it should be guided. Why would that be impossible? I'm not saying they do that, but I'm going to put it out there. But as far as what we can observe, they seem to be mostly hands-off in their attitude and in their behaviors to us, except for the occasional abduction and maybe they're doing hybridization and things like that. But they're not having an open back-and-forth communication with us. That's for sure. Because all of this is on their terms, not our terms. They do what they want. They blanket this world. There are sightings around the world every single day, over the oceans, over land, everywhere. Everywhere. And, yes, I'm sure many of these sightings that people think of UFOs are prosaic, but not all of them. There's just too many. And there's too many good ones. They're not all just prosaic. I don't believe that. So I think, from my perspective, they are everywhere. This is a dense phenomenon. You asked earlier, what do I think is, you kind of asked this, what is missing from our conversation or where are we being misdirected? I'll tell you one thing that's missing from our conversation is the daily quantity of good sightings of objects, whether over land or over water, every single day. This is something that hasn't gone away, doesn't stop, and it's global. So, to me, the story there is we're dealing with an infrastructure of theirs that is probably very substantial and would be expensive for us to try to replicate. It requires maybe a certain amount of their money or their equivalent to money, whatever that is, and definitely their time and energy and attention. I think that is definitely something that's important to them. They are here and they are doing things that they feel are important, and they're not talking to us about it. Like, these are fundamental takeaways that we're really not discussing nearly enough, not just in the general society, but even in our own community. We're really not trying to look at their motivations, their behaviors, and we're really not trying to ask ourselves, what could this behavior mean? So, that's something that I think is important, and I do try to do from time to time, because we've got to be asking these questions, even if it's speculation, which it is. It's inevitably going to be somewhat speculative, but that doesn't mean it isn't important. We need to start asking realistically of what are the, based on their behaviors, what are the potential scenarios that this involves? And I think, to me, the most logical answer to that is that we, as a planet and as a human species, both separately, for their own reasons, have, in a way that I still do not understand, been able to get the attention of other intelligences from somewhere else not native to this world. And they are able to find us, they are able to see just how unique and amazing Earth is, and how interesting humanity has become, and we have become interesting. We're more like them than we're different, even though I'm sure they're at a different level in many ways, but we're more like them. We use mathematics, we use symbolic language, we deal with concepts and philosophy. We do all of those things, and I am sure they have done and continue to do those things. We have consciousness as an awareness of ourselves, as conscious, independent entities of our own. We're self-aware. So are they. Like all of these things. So I think they're interested in us now that we have, we're going on this kind of quasi-exponential path of technology ourselves. We're developing not just nuclear weapons, but now we are on the cusp of very strong artificial intelligence, which is another leap in our species' ability to engage in data management of all kinds of, management of all kinds of information. That's power. Management of data is power. And we are becoming powerful. I know there's people out there who want to dismiss us as we're just, we're like ants compared to other intelligences. I don't, I don't think that's accurate, and I don't think that's fair, and I don't think it's smart either. I think that we're actually very interesting. And, you know, how long will it be before we end up having the ability to discover, let's say, space-time metric engineering in a way that they, maybe they can do? I think they can. How else are they going to get here from wherever they are? And this is the thing. Skeptics about UFOs are great at one thing. They're great at ignoring all the UFO evidence that we have. There's some amazingly powerful cases that really beg an explanation, and they beg a scientific explanation. Because if there are objects that can do non-inertial, instant acceleration, zigzag, stop on a dime, take off like a bullet, all of that, they're using physics that we don't understand. And that physics might very well incorporate an ability to bend space and time in a way that allows them to travel through the stars, across the stars. Why not? How they can find us is another question. The universe is big. It's not like Star Trek where you can just, you know, fire up the engines and go. So, you know, I think it's a lot more complex than that. But I think they've figured something out. And we're very interesting to them. I think we're, why wouldn't we be? Why wouldn't Earth be very interesting? Yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of life, you know, if you take the grand scale of the universe. But we have an amazing planet. We really do. We have water. We have land. We've been in the Goldilocks zone for quite a while. We have an incredible diversity of life and genetic, unique genetic permutations. That in itself would be interesting to any intelligence that can check this world out. But then there's humans with our little opposable thumbs and our ability to manipulate the environment. And our ability to reason is becoming better. At least we're using tools that allow us to reason better with computers and AI. So I think they're interested in us. I think something was triggered over the last century or even a little bit more that, you know, I sometimes imagine, like, did they have like a little century, an automated century that is observing us for a certain period of time that would send off a signal to them. To say, okay, now the humans have reached this threshold, you know. Yeah. Isaac Newton came along and he's got the three laws of motions. And they're like, okay, they're coming along. It won't be long before they get an Einstein. It won't be long before they get computers. Like, I'll bet you that we're following a very predictable trajectory. I'll bet they know our trajectory better than we do. So they came here and I think they're watching the show because it's a hell of a show to watch. George Carlin talked about this, you know, in his last years. He's like, well, I didn't vote for these people, but I've got the popcorn. I've got a front row seat watching it all happen. It's entertaining, if nothing else. But it's also, it's a bit of drama. I think South Park once described Earth as a reality show. So, yeah, and that sounds about right. Like, we're a great reality show if someone wants to watch us. But we also have, there's a lot in this world that is probably great, of great value intrinsically. I think Rick and Morty had that episode as well where the giant heads come to Earth and show us what you got. And it's like Earth's, it's a galactic talent show and it's Earth's turn to, you have to entertain them. And if you don't, they just blow up your planet. So, yeah, no, that was pretty fun. Have you got time to fire through some listener questions still, Richard? Yeah, yeah. Because I've not got to any of them yet. I've deleted a few as you've touched on various different things. When can people actually get a hold of your second volume? Do you know yet a rough time? Well, as soon as we're done talking, I'm going to go back to it. I'm cleaning it up. As I say, the writing's done. I definitely want it out before Christmas. I would like to sell some copies before Christmas. That would be nice. So where you and I are speaking in the first week of November, you know, hopefully in a few weeks. It's hard because, look, I'm the writer and I'm the proofreader and I'm the publisher. And I'm the desktop publisher. Like, I'm doing the whole thing. And every step requires certain different things that I have to do. So I'm not anticipating a major holdup. So I think it should be out, I'm just going to say, before Christmas. Excellent. So listen, so much interest, Richard, when you come on the show from different people. I met someone in Milan the other week who's a big fan of yours. They were hoping to see you at the Sol Symposium. Obviously, you weren't in attendance. At this time, no. But I said to Halil, if he could send me in a question, I would happily ask it. And I'm going to do that now. He wants to know whether you have any knowledge of UFO sightings in the Chinese Empire. He says, we know that officials from that time had to keep accurate records of what was happening in the provinces. Yeah. Yeah, some. Earlier this year, I decided to do my own dive into the history of Chinese ufology. But you're talking about the ancient Chinese Empire. And, you know, some of those are collected in the volume by Chris Aubeck and Jacques Vallée, of course, Wonders in the Sky. When you look at ancient UFO sightings that are worth recording, a lot of them come from China and from Japan also, as well as from Europe. Reason being, as you were kind of indicating, China was one of the few literate, fully literate societies back then that would have been able to record wonders in the sky. So there's a few. There's actually some of the best ancient UFO sightings, in my opinion, are Chinese, not European. I think they have some better quality ones. But having said that, I mean, there are some ancient sightings that are interesting and maybe you could even say good. I'm a little more interesting, a little more up on the more recent era of China from the 1960s and 70s onward. But what we now know is that even during the darkest depths of Mao Zedong's cultural revolution in the 1960s, there were some really interesting Chinese UFO sightings that the military encountered, that civilians encountered. And we started to learn about those after Mao died and Deng Xiaoping became leader of the Chinese Communist Party and instituted some reforms and a certain level of openness. And it led to an explosion of Chinese ufology in the 1970s and 80s and culminated in the rise of the Falun Gong in the in the 1990s, which was very, very brutally crushed in 1999. China's history of UFO encounters is a really interesting one. It's one that we don't know nearly enough about in the West, but this is one of Earth's major civilizations and one of the most ancient civilizations of all that is very different from the rest of the world in terms of language, first of all, right? So there's always the difficulty of communication in terms of geography, China historically has always been very cut off from the rest of the world. You've got this immense, you've got the Himalayan plateau, you've got the fact that China faces the Pacific Ocean and to reach Europe, you've got the massive Eurasian continent in between and a lot of desert. So it's always been very difficult to get communication between Western society and China. And to this day, there's still a lot of lack of understanding. So it's a really huge topic. And there's no question that the ancient Chinese empire did record unusual sightings. What's less clear is what they, you know, were interpreting them as being societies in the ancient world, particularly when you're getting into kings and nobility, really always wanted to interpret sightings in the sky as portents, often that would support their political situation, whatever that happened to be. These are always interpreted as signs from the gods in one way or another. And so they, you know, it wasn't like they had the equivalent of MUFON out there in early times asking witnesses, how large was the object if you held it at arm's length, you know, they weren't doing that. There wasn't really a scientific evaluation of these things. But China in recent decades is an extremely interesting case study of ufology. We could talk about that sometime. That's an interesting thing. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you're drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. So you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Absolutely. I just had Samuel Chong on the podcast about eight weeks ago. He was discussing the book The Theobo Prophecies, which goes off on a tangent I wasn't quite expecting, slightly outside my comfort zone in a good way, around Jesus and Christ being two different entities, one NHI being involved, all that kind of stuff, and how the book in China has gained a lot of popularity. And it was an interesting conversation. Samuel's a lawyer based out in California. Obviously, he's been in the U.S. for many decades now. But really interesting chap. And if you get a chance to catch that, I think that might be something you would enjoy exploring. That's interesting. China has a large percentage of people in the culture who are really into the subject. It got strongly repressed at the end of the 90s. The Falun Gong, just for people who may not know, is like a spiritual type of movement that involves Qigong and physical exercise as a way to kind of integrate mind and body and soul and spirit. It's a very, it's a serious discipline. It's an amazing discipline. So Falun Gong arose in the late 80s, early 90s with definite take on extraterrestrials and UFOs. That actually was an integral part of their philosophy, believe it or not. So you've got this, this is the era of supposed like openness, post-Mao. And so a lot of Chinese people really got into the Falun Gong. It actually became bigger than the Chinese Communist Party and was a threat to the party. But I'm mentioning it here because in Chinese ufology, within the Falun Gong and beyond, you've got this schism. You see it everywhere between the nuts and bolts, materialist, scientific school of ufology and then the contactee side of ufology. And the side of ufology that is interested in things like prophecy and metaphysical matters. And what's surprising is how incredibly popular that latter part actually became. And I'm sure still is within China, but they just have to be very much on the down low about it. So there's a really strong draw, I think, among the Chinese people, at least it seems to me, to these types of metaphysical interpretations of ufology. I think it's got the potential to surprise us all, but it's really not allowed to be expressed very much. So, in fact, it's really not allowed almost at all to be expressed since 1999. So that's an interesting aspect of it. So I'm not really surprised that there would be this interest in ancient prophecies and things like that. But I don't really know much else about it. So I don't know what else to say. But, yeah, it sounds interesting. Longknife asks, what is Richard's current thinking on black triangles seen over U.S. bases and test areas? Folks like Roderick Castle, who was on with UAP Gerb and Ross Coulthart, talked about this. And Dylan Borland, of course, as well, talked about seeing something similar. Yeah, the triangles have always been a fascinating part of this mystery. You started seeing a lot of triangular craft in terms of sightings during the 1970s. It doesn't mean that they were not seen earlier. There were sightings of triangular UFOs occasionally reported earlier. The question is, who's making these things? So when you think of a triangle, we're often inclined to think, well, we're probably making it. UAP Gerb has talked really a lot about triangular craft. And, in fact, the late, I've spoken to him myself, Fouché, Edgar Fouché, who had a lot to say about the TR3 and B and how these are technologies that we have developed. I think that's probably true. I think that we're building at least some of these triangles, but I don't believe we're building all of these triangles. I don't believe we're building them all. There's just too many. And, like, for example, there's a major phenomenon that has been going on for years and decades of, you know, people waking up in the middle of the night. I can't sleep. It's 2 o'clock in the morning. They go outside. They look outside and they see a black triangle hovering over their neighbor's house, for example. Go to the National UFO Reporting Center. You'll come across these types of sightings. Or the MUFON database. They get them from time to time. This is a real thing. This is one subset of the larger phenomenon. And what are those triangles doing? Well, I suspect they're, you know, they're over a residential area, 200 feet above someone's house in the dead of night. Well, what do you think they're doing? I think they're probably interested in those people inside that house. Maybe they're doing an abduction. Maybe they're doing a visitation of some sort. So it seems like, is that human? I don't know. It doesn't strike me as human. To have a, for this to be a black project in which you've got your operators going around the world, hanging out over neighborhoods at two and three in the morning, dead silent, undetected every time. And that's a heck of a thing to think. So I think that you've got triangles that we've been working on and you've got triangles that are not ours. How much do you think the U.S. government, for example, and the people who know about this topic know about the abduction phenomenon in particular in terms of who's doing it, why it's happening, and even if they can predict the pattern of when they could happen or even bring it upon themselves? That's a great question. And the information that's come to us through any kind of channel is very minimal on this. If you read, if you remember the Wilson Davis notes, Eric Davis was talking with Admiral Thomas Wilson back in 2002 about this. And Wilson, at the end of the transcript there, toward the end, he says to Davis, well, you know, I was told that the abduction part, that's not really even happening. And that that was not true. And when I came across it, I thought, well, is that actually what they believe or is that what this guy was telling Wilson? Because I don't think it's not happening, but that is supposedly what Wilson was told. So it's entirely possible that genuine knowledge of abductions may be quite limited. You know, Dan Sherman just did a great interview with Jesse Michael on Jesse's channel. And, you know, one of the things that Dan Sherman did, and I've been a believer in Dan Sherman's accounts for quite a while. Dan Sherman, his story basically is he was trained through the U.S. Air Force to become what's called an intuitive communicator, working with NSA to be able to receive messages from what appeared to be alien beings, to write down coordinates, and to write it down in such a way that he came to believe that he was actually collecting information from them on abductions, maybe among other things. So if that's true, then someone knows about this stuff. But these things are very compartmented, and they're very, very deeply, deeply stovepiped. So who really knows what? This is the grand question. We're talking about a very complex labyrinth of secrecy. It's frustrating. Skeptics will say, well, that's a convenient excuse. You know, you can say there's so much secrecy, and that's why you don't have information. But this is the truth. This is a profound subject. We're dealing with non-human intelligences, clearly, that are vastly more intelligent than we are, more capable, that deal with us on their terms. And it's not difficult to see why this would be the subject of tremendous secrecy from a national security point of view. Like, all of that's not difficult to see. And that's what we're dealing with. You know, we have this illusion. Even those of us who are very skeptical of mainstream narratives, like you, like me, like probably every listener here. But I think we really overestimate the ability of our society to get at the truth. We still have this pretense that we've got something of a democratic type of global system here, when we certainly don't. It's a very, very, very severely controlled system that's fighting elements that want to break that control, but is still doing a really good job at maintaining that control over narratives of all types, including this one. So it's tough, you know, it's tough to figure out, like, how much do these government officials really know? Or what does Donald Trump know about alien abductions, like officially speaking? It's a great question. Will we ever really find out? What did Joe Biden know when he was president, if anything? What did Barack Obama know? We don't really have good answers to these questions. We've got a couple of stories that have come to us here and there. Bill Clinton has his story that he tried to find out and couldn't. I heard this from a few different sources. I'm sure it's true. So if the U.S. president can't get all the details that he or in the future maybe she will want, how do you even know who's running this? This is a thing we really don't know. Presidents of the United States are powerful, but, you know, I think we can all realize they have their limits of power as well. There's only certain things that they're really able to do. And then they have to be in front of the cameras. They've got to shake hands with the dignitaries, do all of that stuff. And then how many of the special access programs of the hundreds that undoubtedly are there, or thousands? Who knows? How many of those are they going to be briefed on in detail and know about and be able to do anything about? Like there's only so many hours in a day. And we have a habit. We've had a couple of really old presidents in the last many number of years. Like you have to wonder. Trump looks like he's got a lot of energy, but still, like you really got to ask yourself, how much are they going to be briefed on this? What can they really do? So, like you really are wondering, like, who actually is running this? Is it something like SIAC, you know, or is it another private entity that has connections with the U.S. government or some kind of corporate public-private combination? Or is it all money? Is it all the Bilderberg people? Or like we, this is where we really, we, we fall down. We don't have, we don't have enough information on us. We get little tidbits. There's much, much more we need to learn. A couple of listeners got in touch, including Gray. I know you've sent in a lot of questions, Gray, but I'm going to just summarize this one just for time for Richard. But a lot of folks have this idea the abduction phenomenon has finished or stalled or slowed down. And I wonder, if I think about that, is that because there was a time where abductions were more rife and for whatever reason, the reason for those has finished. And if it's data collection, for example, they've got the data they need and that's why they've slowed or stopped. Would that make sense to you? Yeah, that's, that's not impossible. I wonder about this because we're not hearing nearly as much about abductions as we used to. That seems to be true. But then you have to ask, is that simply because abduction researchers are not doing enough, enough, enough work? I mean, back, you know, a few decades ago, we had Bud Hopkins and David Jacobs and John Mack. They were the big three. And they were publishing lots of good books on abduction that were being read by a lot of people. We have another generation of abduction researchers. For many years, we had Barbara Lamb. Barbara is still around. I don't know if she's doing active work anymore. We have Yvonne Smith, who's got some books out. There's Kathleen Martin. There's other people doing work on abduction research. And I do get the sense that there are still abductions happening in our century. But it's true, like, they're not getting as much attention. And I'm not hearing about as many of them. Maybe it is. Maybe it could be slowing down. It's not impossible. But I think, you know, before I make that call, I would, I really think we need to be doing better research on this. Just because we're not hearing enough about them. It's easy for kind of vague statements to get out there that don't really have a lot of data behind them. But they're anecdotally sound. They seem anecdotally plausible. And then we just say, yeah, yeah, no one's talking about abduction, so they must not be happening. Like, I don't know that I would want to make that conclusion. But my sense is that there's actually not as much systematic work being done on abductions, maybe, as there had been in prior decades. Maybe that's as simple as that. I'd be hard-pressed to think that they're not happening. But they do. They're not getting as much attention. That's true. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales. Another for inventory. 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Like, I look at, you know, there was obviously a time where smoking was considered a good thing for you and prescribed by doctors, obviously. And then for decades, there was a lot of research into smoking being bad for you. I would say that that research probably still goes on, but not to the same scale, because we're very much of the opinion, yes, smoking was not good for you. Something similar akin to that, where abductions perhaps still happen, but to a lesser extent. Well, let me just add this one thing. You know, I spoke earlier in my USO research about the 1970s being a very active decade. And there were a lot of abduction cases from the 1970s. I mean, Travis Walton's maybe one of the most famous of all is 1975, but there were many, many, many others. It was an incredibly active time of abductions, as were the 80s. But it could be that something specific happened to that time period. For example, it could be that a new group arrived in the 1970s. I often wonder that. Because there are enough behavioral changes, at least in the USO cases that I've studied during this period of time, to make me think, like, is there something? What is different here, starting in the late 60s, early 70s? What has caused this behavioral change? Could it be a response to our growing technological prowess? I'm sure some of it that could be. But the quantity of sightings in the 70s shot way up. And not just with the USOs, but UFOs in general. So could it be that there was a new group, a new operation that came in and part of what they did? Could that have been abductions? Could that be the arrival of the actual black-eyed gray aliens? Maybe there are recent additions to this scenario. And maybe this is what they're doing. And it could be that their program had a certain time frame attached to it. So what I would like to find out is really get into more contemporary abduction research. And it's really hard to know, like, who's really at the leading edge of doing abduction research. There's a bunch of recent books. There's books. But, you know, what I'm asking is, like, is there anything that's really trying to be any more systematic about it? And I'm not aware. Maybe I'm missing that. Can I just ask you to expand on that as a final thing? Do you think the idea then that perhaps something came along in the 70s is that it replaced what was here already? For example, the way we have the space station, and every couple of months or six months, a new set of astronauts go on, that others return home, and they carry on the work? Or would you think it was a whole separate entity or species that turned up alongside whatever else was here? I'm not sure what I think, but I imagine it could be the latter of those two scenarios, that something entirely new may have come along. But it seems to me that if you can get a visitation from one, you could possibly get a visitation from more than one just as easily. Because, you know, from our perspective, interstellar or any kind of travel through the stars seems so difficult that it seems impossible. And by our technology and science, it basically is impossible. We don't really have a way to figure this out. But if there is a way to somehow bend space and time in some way that we don't quite grasp, or even more out there, using by means of an interaction of consciousness itself to the very fabric of reality, it's not impossible in my view. So there could be, to use a basic word here, there could be a loophole involved in their ability to come here easily that we just are not getting, we're not able to understand. So if one can do that, then I would imagine more than one might be able to do that. And maybe that's what's happening. The thing is, there's just so many directions we could go with this. You know, you have to ask yourself, like, how long would a typical advanced civilization even last? This is the other thing. So it's not just the distance problem that makes this such a difficult subject, but it's the time factor. Our universe is, you know, roughly about 14 billion years old, and that's a long period of time. So how long does the actual, could an actual civilization last, even if it's as long as 1 million years? That's just like a little sliver. It's like a little in line compared with the actual age of the universe. So you would think any civilization could have risen and fallen, and would they even overlap with each other? Like, it's a fair question to ask, and I don't know what the answer to that would be. My assumption, though, is that the quality of the history of UFO sightings that we have had are strong enough to tell me that someone's figured this out, and they're able to come here and visit us. This is what I think. And that there's got to be a way that they've done this. Are they coming from outside of time? Are they coming, or have they figured out a way to be so stable that they can last for more than millions of years? I don't know. I don't really know the answer to this. This is a difficult subject. I started diving into UFOs 30-plus years ago because I couldn't figure out why our military was taking them so seriously in the 1940s and 50s due to declassified documents that I was able to find. I found out that this was a subject that was being taken seriously. Okay, so that's important. So then I asked myself, did they determine that they were Soviet? Well, it doesn't look like they did. Did they determine that they were ours? And to my feeling is, no, they have not determined them to be ours. And there's a lot of good reasons why they're not just ours if you look at the whole history of this. So that's just, you know, you start running out of options, and you start looking at non-human intelligence, and you start wondering, could they be from elsewhere in the universe? And, you know, we don't have all the answers. But I think, I tend to think they're from another part of the universe. They exist in space and time, at least some of the time. They've figured things out that we have not figured out. They're ahead of us on the exponential curve of data control and data manipulation. So they know things that we just don't know. And that might be simple to them and might be impossible for us to understand. So, you know, we have this idea that, well, we can figure it all out. But I don't know. Sometimes I wonder if we really can. But that doesn't mean the problem goes away. That doesn't mean that it's not legitimate. I think it's totally legitimate. But we just may be struggling for a while at a genuine, deep understanding of what it all represents. I think the last thing I'll say here, because I don't want us to sound like, oh, well, we'll never understand anything. There's a lot of things that we know. I can say there's someone here. They're intelligent. They have a program. They have a plan. They don't want to communicate overly much with us. And I think they find us interesting. And I think we can say that. And whether their motivations are to help us or to harm us or to watch us indifferently as everything goes to hell, those are speculative questions. And each one of them has their own perspective, their own way of looking at it. And they could all be true to some extent. And especially if you have more than one group that's here. Maybe they don't all have the same agendas. I think why people like myself and so many others respect you, Richard, and enjoy speaking to you, enjoy listening to you, enjoy you or need to know your own channel, is because you can say, I don't know. And I think less and less, that's a feature that gets lost in this conversation. There's so many folks that are happy to tell you what they definitely know and what is definitely fact and why everything else you think is wrong. I think in this conversation, the ability to say, I don't know, is lost on a lot of folks. So, yeah, very much appreciate that. It's good to be comfortable with some uncertainty. We really, you need that. Once we start feeling like we have to answer all the questions, we have to get all the answers, I don't think that's going to happen. Just imagine if it was a million years ago and you were part of the species we now call Homo erectus. Well, those are very smart people, but they had limits. And could you imagine talking to someone of that species and their attitude is, I need to know everything about your society? And you'd be like, well, you know, it's never going to happen. You're never going to get it. You're just not going to be able to understand many of the things that we know because you don't have the cognitive capability to do it. That's the reality. And I think it might be similar with us. We tend to think, well, we can figure all of these things out. And we're figuring a lot out. And we're now using tools like artificial intelligence, which may develop a kind of reasoning capability. Maybe AI will become conscious in a way that we might understand conscious. I don't think that's impossible. So there are things that are down the road that we might be able to be assisted by. But for us to think that we're going to be able to figure all of these things out, I think we've been infected by the idea of progress over many centuries, which it's understandable why we developed this idea. We discovered science. We discovered that science is very powerful. We discovered that science can give us many answers that eluded us in the past. Yes, yes, all of that is true. But we also, I think, may have made a premature jump to this idea that man or humanity can somehow be perfectible, that we can just keep improving and improving and improving, like Star Trek, which I look on as basically fantasy. I love the old Star Trek show. Don't get me wrong. But it's basically fantasy. And in that type of a vision of the future, you know, those people, they've kind of figured things out. Yeah, there's still mysteries. There's still some conflict. But we've all learned to play nice in the sandbox. And we've solved our social problems. And we've learned so much. And we're just going to keep going and going. It's a really optimistic view of us that it's great to be optimistic. But for us to think that our civilization can just kind of keep going infinitely and progressing and getting better all this time and more knowledgeable, more wise, I've got my doubts about that. And so for our ability to understand the full import of this topic that we're all discussing here, UFOs or UAP, aliens, there's always going to be things, I think, that we just may not be able to understand fully. That may be possible. I agree. Good place to leave it, Richard. And do you want to just once again remind folks how they can follow you, follow your work, and obviously get a copy of USO's Volume 2 when it comes out? We'll be out. We'll have a YouTube channel called Richard Dolan Intelligent Disclosure. You can just go check that out. I put out videos every couple of weeks. I'm not as active a YouTuber as others, but I do what I can. I have a website called richardolammembers.com. There's paywall stuff there, and there's free stuff there. There's a lot that people can go check out to see what I'm up to. I will post just like interesting research that I'm up to. I just recently did a video on creating a taxonomy and a map of what constitutes ufology itself. I may do that as a public YouTube video because I think it would be interesting to ask ourselves what constitutes ufology today. Anyway, so I do things like that. I just put them up there for the members of my site. I'll write articles on different aspects of the UFO and world situation. Sometimes I go beyond UFOs. So that's richardolammembers.com and my YouTube channel. I've got a Twitter X account, and there's even Instagram. I don't manage those, but I have people who put things up for me, and they do a good job. Awesome. Richard, once again, thank you so much, and I look forward to speaking to you when that new book comes out. It was a pleasure, as always, Andy. Thank you for having me here, and a greeting to all of the members of your channel. That's all for this episode of That UFO Podcast. Thank you so much for listening and watching. If you enjoyed the show, please follow, subscribe, and leave a rating or review wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps others find the show. If you're watching on YouTube, hit like, subscribe, and turn on notifications so you don't miss future episodes. You can also support the show directly and get early access, ad-free episodes, and bonus content on Patreon, or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube memberships. All the links are over at thatufopodcast.com or in the show description below, along with merchandise and more. Don't forget, you can also pick up a copy of my book, Atlas of Unidentified Flying Objects, available now in all good bookstores and through online retailers, including Amazon. Big thank you again to all of you for listening and tuning in. Until next time, keep looking up. You never know what you might see. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. 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