The Breakdown 2025 UFO Year in Review The Stories That Mattered and What Comes Next

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Or take advantage of huge savings on Silverados with up to $13,000 off. East Hartford Chevy. Together, let's drive. Unapproved credit. Not all will qualify. Plus tax title, $899 dealer conveyance fee, $29.99 deal. 24 months, 10,000 miles through GMF. Negative equity refinanced and new loan. Rebates and incentives to dealer. Offers not in combination. Must qualify for lease loyalty or conquest and first responder or military incentive. Hi folks. My book, Atlas of Unidentified Flying Objects, is available to buy. And thank you to everyone who has done so so far. 4.9 out of 5 stars on Amazon. Please leave a review if you've bought it already. If you haven't, it is available on Amazon and all good bookstores. It's got some wonderful reviews. Check those out. And I really appreciate the support. Thank you so much. Hi everyone and welcome back to that UFO podcast and a very special breakdown episode to look back at the year that was 2025 and a few thoughts on what might lay ahead into 2026. And joining me, a familiar name for many of you and the host of What It Means to Be Human, his own show now available on YouTube and all audio platforms. Welcome back, Dan. Dan, welcome back, mate. Thank you for having me. It's been a little while. So much has happened and we've both been on such adventures since we last talked. You have a book now. You're a published author and you can walk down the stones and see it. You know, I got my own show that's going. It's, you know, life takes you to crazy places. Did you have a good Christmas? Yes. Quiet. I think everyone I've heard described Christmas as quiet. I don't think anyone says it's busy anymore. It was, but it was a few days of quiet, sitting in the house, letting the kids play and be noisy. What about yourself over in the States? How is life there? It's good. Like we traveled down to Florida in the RV, stayed at loads of different national parks on the way down, which were beautiful. This nature reserve called Jekyll Island had like two million Christmas lights. I took a bike ride through. So, and yeah, down to Florida for Christmas, then Titusville to see like the rocket launches and stuff, which, you know, I'm a massive space nerd. So, I love that. And now back up to Virginia. Here I am. Nice. And that's Virginia, not Virginia. Yes. Yes. No, no red-eyed beings here. Yeah. So far as I know. Unless they're stoned, I imagine. Right. Don't know what the laws are there, though. So, yeah. But listen, a lot to get through. Like you say, Dan, good to have you back on. We're going to check back over 2025. There's a lot to get through. And I did ask multiple listeners on lots of different platforms to contribute. We will not get through everything today. I've kept some stuff back for folks on the Patreon and YouTube and Apple Premium and Spotify. Essentially, if you're a paid-up member of the podcast, you'll get an extra show in a few days' time at some point once you go through some of the extra stuff. But thank you for that. Dan, first question, though, because I heard you just, I've only caught a little bit of your, I think it was the live stream, I'm not sure. But you mentioned a TV show, and I wanted to get your thoughts on it because we have not talked about it. Do you know what it's going to be? Sorry about us. Yes. So, I... Are you up to date? Are you finished? I binged it. I watched it week after week. I made sure I watched it almost each time on the day it came out. Yeah. I loved it. I thought it was great. We won't spoil it for folks. Do you want to just give a synopsis for anyone who hasn't heard about Plotibus? I think if we stick to, like, the first minute of the show, we should cover bases without explaining too much. But basically, some people at the Very Large Telescope Array, the one from Contact, they receive a signal from space, and you see scientists trying to figure out what it is. And the signal is in a certain pattern, and one of them realizes that it's a pattern for RNA, so they create what is in the signal in the lab, and the world kind of gets infected with a hive-mined alien virus, I guess, that has a biological imperative to spread. It's a really interesting exploration of the whole hive-mined thing and the virus thing, right? But they're all really nice. It's not like a zombie infection. They're all really nice, and I'm a big fan of Zosia for what that means. I would put a little asterisk next to they're all really nice. I would say they're all really nice in terms of manipulating people to get what they want out of the situation. So you could be nice, but also malevolent, right? And I think that's one of the interesting parts about it. And non-spoilery review of the ending, because it's Vince Gilligan who'd done Breaking Bad. And the main character is the woman from Better Call Saul, Carol in it. I loved the series. I was really close to giving it a 10 out of 10. I wish it had another two minutes at the end for the ending. What would you like to see? I know spoilers. A little bit more. Yeah, I'm not going to spoil it. I don't think they completely stuck the landing of the end of the first season. Totally bought into it. I loved that. But I was like, I needed something more. And I will watch the second season, but I was like, ah, 9.5 out of 10. I was just, I felt the ending was very, it was just a little bit lacking for me. And that, I don't think that's, I'm not meaning to be disparaging about it at all. The creators of the show are listening and weeping. Vince Gilligan's like, why Andy? Yeah, no one was doing meth, so. Right. I read that there was a different ending originally that didn't have that last line. I'm trying to avoid spoilers here while letting you know about what's in the box, you know. It just had the other bit. So I'm glad they added that extra bit. But yeah, it left me really wanting more, which is good for season two. But also we might not get it till 2027, which is really annoying. Yes. But if you have not watched it, Pluribus, different take, like Dan says, on the alien invasion narrative, I suppose. Yeah. Really enjoyed it, though. Fantastic series. Really well shot. Looks beautiful. Really interesting story. And do you know what it made me do? There was one episode where, for the first time in years, you know, when you're on your own watching a TV show, you don't tend, well, I don't tend to laugh or say anything out loud. Even if something's funny, you don't really tend to laugh unless it's really, really good. Kind of do it in your head. Yeah, yeah. But there was one particular episode towards the end where I went, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And shouted really loud. I'll tell you when we finish. I think I know the bit. Wait, trees? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. A hundred percent. Yeah. To the point the kids came downstairs asking what was wrong. And I had to explain to them what had happened. And they were like, oh, we thought something was wrong. And I was like, no, I was just real. I was that invested. So, but yeah. Daddy's not real. And you're like, ah, I'm just. Shut your healthy whore mouth. Children get back to bed. Of course it's real. But listen, let's go back, Dan. That's kind of ended the year pluribus on Apple TV. Let's go back to the start of the year, which seems like a lifetime ago now. And Skywatcher kicking off early in the year. No format here, Dan. Let's just get through your thoughts first off. Because Ross Coulthart brought Skywatcher. Well, he brought Jake Barber, to be clear, out in that News Nation interview. 45 minutes long, it landed. It came along with the video of the alleged crash retrieval, the alleged egg. And I'm saying alleged to cover myself and yourself. But, you know, it looked like they were showing us a recovery of something. The interview got various different reactions. We then had a two-hour director's cut of the interview, which fleshed things out a lot more. Jake Barber's experience. I suppose we can then say Skywatcher got announced as an organization. Back in, what, March, they claimed, a big claim, they were going to have, within a year, they were going to use basically psionics and mechanical methods, so telepathic and, you know, a machine, to summon UFOs. Let's use plain language here for, call it a fucking spade a spade, right? They were going to summon UFOs, and they were going to prove they could do it, and they were going to present the data to the public. Privately funded. Alex Clocus and the guys from the SALT Conference, you know, helping out with that. Gary Nolan involved. Very quick, Gary Nolan, to say that, you know, if there's any shenanigans here, if there's anything that seems morally ambiguous or untoward, I will walk away. So for me, Gary Nolan seemed like the canary in the coal mine for them doing things the right way. Because Jake Barber and his mates are all kind of hardcore military guys, you know, that G.I. Joe, in a lot of ways. And I don't mean that, again, disrespectfully, but, you know, they had lots of cool machine guns and all that kind of stuff. That was their background. They eventually, to cut a long story short, haven't come through by the end of 2025 with what they promised. But, I don't know if you saw, Dan, when I was at SALT, I got to ask Jake Barber the first question at the Q&A, and I asked him about, you know, are you still going to be presenting stuff by the end of the year, as you promised? And he said, yes. But he said, you know, what we said was, you know, by the end of the year, it might go into that whole calendar year where it goes back to maybe February or March before we actually are able to present what we think we can present. We've got 10 terabytes of data we're pouring through just now. James Fowler walked away with a dog whistle back in August. He says they don't need it anymore. They're going to go with the psionics and they've got enough stuff to peer review. So, what's your take on Sky? What's your story and where we're at now? Disappointing so far. I'm kind of holding my breath because, like you say, there have been comments that this data is supposedly coming. They're like pouring through it. But my experience with them so far was, you know, Ross said early on that this report was going to just change everything and it really didn't, it was kind of underwhelming, you know. Then it became, oh, in a few weeks, we'll start a YouTube series and you'll see all these amazing kind of bits of data. And then they started that and people were like, that's a bird, that's a balloon, you know, the usual kind of stuff. And then they seem to go quiet and we were all kind of just waiting for these updates from them. And one of the early things they said was that you will know us by our fruits. That was the line. And so far, those fruits are a couple of YouTube episodes and nothing more. So I'm really skeptical. You know, the YouTube silent, I'm like, where are they? I know he's spoken at Sol and said, come in soon, but it's another, you know, hashtag coming soon, you know. So I'm kind of at the point where I'm just, I'll pay attention. If they bring something out, but it just seems to be one of these efforts that's fizzling. And that dog whistle versus psionics thing concerns me because if you think about going to, you know, summon any kind of animal, you know, kind of lure the animal, not summon it, you're not going to do CE5 to see a fox. I mean, you might. I don't know. I've never tried it. But, you know, there are mechanical ways that you can do that. You know, science kind of goes, okay, with this sound, you can attract this type of bird. Or with this sound, whales will come closer. With this frequency, you'll get this. And, you know, that kind of repeated action showing that these things are reliable is really needed. And dropping that, which kind of, you know, the dog whistle democratizes the access, essentially, you know. Even if you're not into CE5, you can just go summon a UFO with the dog whistle, right? I think that's what everyone's interested in. You don't have to be special. Whereas the psionic stuff feels more like, oh, it wasn't successful for you? Sorry, you're the wrong frequency. It's your fault, you know? I'm still interested, but it just feels very like, like moldy and damp at the moment, if that makes sense. And I'm really curious, and you might be able to answer this for me because you no doubt chatted with this person at Sol. But Gary keeps commenting on them. And I find it curious because Gary, I would say shenanigans have happened already. You know, stuff isn't coming out. Goalposts have been moved. Deadlines have been missed. There's a lot of naysaying about the effort now. You know, a lot of people disappointed. And Gary left TTSA over a lot less. So I'm curious, how involved is he? How much does he know is actually going on? Or is it a case of just behind the scenes, he's seen all the data and he's like, yeah, it's great data. It's coming. Yeah. I got the impression that he's obviously seen the data, will have seen the data. I think there's a bit of a struggle. And again, this is just an external view of it, that you've got a company that's privately funded. And we've talked about this, haven't we, that they don't owe the public, us, anything because they are privately funded. Maybe after they really, and this is pure guesswork and speculation, folks. This is not me speaking from any place of knowledge, right? Quote him. Cut this and push it on socials. But, you know, maybe after those reactions from the first couple of YouTube episodes, maybe they went, like, fuck this. You know, we're putting this stuff out to show people that stuff they're asking for and they're not happy. So let's just not do it. Let's just, let's not show them anything right now until that kind of year marker and they may present the data. So rather than kind of, you know, I'm building your house for you and I've put the frame up and you go, ah, shit, this looks a bit shitty. Yeah, yeah, it's not done yet. Yeah, but you're not, well, you're not happy with it now because we've not filled the rooms. We've not put the, you know, the stuff on the outside. We've not, we've not done the electrics, the plumbing's still a bit of a mess. Yeah, it's a work in progress. So they showed us a really polished work in progress with those YouTube videos and people went, that's not enough. So maybe, and I think we probably said as much at the time, maybe they've went, well, let's just leave it for now then and deal with it when the time comes. I don't doubt the James Fowler moving on stuff through a spanner in the works. As much as they've played that down, I can't imagine that wasn't ideal. You know, that was the guy having to go home because his mum shouted him in for tea, but, you know, the game of football was still going on and it was his ball and everyone's went, yeah, we can stay out and kick this can about. You can still play football, but it's not the same. So that is, that's the impression I maybe got with how that whole situation works. But again, I'll still go back to one of the first things, Dan, we talked about, I think, on the whole Skywatcher situation. They more or less, and I'm not going to misquote here, I'll paraphrase, but please tell me, Dan, if I'm wrong. They made out, they could do all this stuff pretty early on as if, yeah, we can summon this stuff. Then very quickly changed to, we're going to show you that we can do this and we're going to practice and get it right. And it was like, right, wait, you said you could do it. And then it seemed to be stepped back to, no, no, no, we think we can. And it was like, that wasn't what you said. Right. And that's what got people's attention. Yeah, but then Barber's whole backstory, it's like, if you're, I always got the impression, and this could just be me putting 2-2 together and getting 12, that he was recovering stuff and was this stuff being recovered, were they using Fowler's technology in the military to summon stuff and recover it? You know, is that what they were doing? Is that why Barber had this idea of we can go away and do this separately with similar or the same technology, do it privately? I don't know, because Jake's been pretty quiet on all that stuff. Didn't go into detail on that at the Sol Foundation. But yeah, for me, I'm still willing to give them that time, but we need to see something. And I do agree with you that what they presented did look like birds, you know, on those videos. I saw nothing fantastical to whet the appetite. All I saw was you have the capability here, even from a production standpoint, to present stuff in a really nice-looking way. But, you know, you've given me a cracking casserole dish without the casserole in it. So, I'm going to do too many analogies already. That's what you're doing to me. Put the football in the casserole. Yeah, put the football in the casserole dish and let's stop fucking about. So yeah, that's where I'm at with it. I'll give them time. I get that maybe things changed. They haven't technically owed us anything, like I've said. It's privately funded. I think that's really good that they're not selling tickets. They're not asking you to download apps. They're not putting on shows. I think that lends a certain type of credibility to what they're doing. Excuse the orb flying about here, folks. That is a joke. That is a small fly. That is a small fly. That'll be up on Twitter later on with 50,000 views. Right. But yeah, so that's where I'm at with it. Disappointed, I think it's totally fair. Yeah. I think they over-promised and as yet have under-delivered, but we'll see. Yeah, exactly. I mean, if this is, think of this, if Apple announced a new iPhone and then said, it's made, it's ready, and then in a month's time, they went, oh, we're going to make it and it will be ready. And then six months later, they were like, ah, by the end of the year, we'll show you something. And then it's like, ah, it might go into next year. It's just the goalposts are moving and I'm caring less and I'm going to go buy a different phone. Kind of what they're doing with Apple Intelligence where get the new iPhone. It's going to be ready for Apple Intelligence. You got it. And it was like, oh yeah, that's not ready yet. That'll be out in a few months, but you've got the phone for it now. And now eventually when they bring it out, the expectations are going to be there. It's going to be crap. The less people are going to pay attention. It's not going to be a device seller for them, you know? So just kneecapping themselves. And you touched on something important that I didn't get to as well. Like, kneecap or kneecap. There's some iffy. Nice. I like it. But there are some muddy waters around it with Jake's backstory and like some Greer connections and stuff like that where Jake was saying he was sent to events to kind of like smoke out whistleblowers. And I wonder if, you know, a part of me thinks, wait, was Skywatcher for this kind of thing? Were you here to muddy the waters? And until I see something substantial from them, that little thought's getting bigger. Because it did. It threw the community kind of into chaos, right? Like everyone's like, C5 is real and then others nuts and bolts. And it just, it got crazy. And the community doesn't need any fuel for that to happen. One more thing then on Skywatcher is just thinking of the point you've made there. Is it perhaps a good thing that we've not seen an influx of people join this organization because we see these organizations come and go all the time? Would that have been a bit more suspicious if you saw person X, person Y, person Z over the course of the year get on board, you know, you get these non-executive roles and I'm a consultant for them and it seems to be the organization got set up and one person left. So there seems to be some kind of stability from a very high bird's eye view of the organization. So for me, that's a good thing that it's not necessarily been set up and they're bringing people on board to silence them. The one thing I'd say to that is that the person that left took 50% of their work, you know, assuming that Psyonix and Dog Whistle were kind of equally seen to. But I just find that really interesting as well. Like the Dog Whistle, like why did James take it? Like is it being used inside the military now with his contract that he got to use it or was it a case that he didn't like the project? It's a good example of we have no information so we're filling the gaps with guesses and that's all we can do. You know, I don't think people can be blamed for that but that's a case of we'll be a little bit more transparent then like talk to us, let us know what's happening especially because, you know, it's almost New Year and the deadline's about to hit. Yeah, no, that's fair enough. Okay, so I was going to mention Matthew Brown but let's just lump in whistleblowers then because this may be something we mentioned last year as this year being like the year of the whistleblower. I think we kind of expected it or I certainly did in 2024 after Grush the previous year in 2023 coming forward and we had Matthew Brown come forward as the author of The Immaculate Constellation documents that were presented at the year before his hearing. Dylan Borland came forward later this year earlier this year now with Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp he came out in the hearing telling his own unique story. What's your take been on those guys what they've said and the level of whistleblowers we've had now? It's been really interesting Dylan was the win for me from that hearing didn't expect it you know he was kind of the Matthew Brown of that hearing still curious why Matthew Brown wasn't there but maybe that's in the future but yeah Dylan's been great and he's also I would say kept it together post the hearing as well you know like with Matthew Brown I think he alienated some people with his esoteric posts which you know for me I was like oh yeah I see the dog whistle for Crowley and Jack Parsons and all these kind of things but no doubt I know you're not as into that so did you look at that tweet and you were just like that sounds like nonsense mate like I don't know what you're saying so it kind of right exactly I get the jest but I'm like cool right and when we're talking about whistleblowers I know we've said before that they can kind of end up shooting themselves in the foot by giving too much you know we had Jason Sands remind me of his name Jason Sands that's it you knew exactly I knew immediately where you were going with that four hour quarter space four hour quarter space too many answers too much confusion you know had he kept it to James Fox's movie and then like limited interviews I think the the story would have been more palatable but just too too many cooks in the kitchen on that one and Jason said that when I interviewed him Jason said that and I brought it up with him to say you know do you regret that now and he was like yeah he was like you know I went on and he just he just he just went for it and he discussed you know PTSD and all that kind of thing as well and I think that's where you know no harm to you know because everyone on Twitter is so nice to each other but you know all these people running all these different Twitter spaces they can be a bit of a clusterfuck where 127 people all sitting in the room and all these different moderators are then can you even call it interviewing someone you're just asking questions and they're all shouting back and different people are bringing up all different tangents and person A wants to go down this route person B then jumps in and hijacks it and goes this way it's it's not it's not a particularly great platform for me or way of communicating stuff I don't particularly enjoy them I've been in the odd one now and again if I've if I've literally had five minutes and I've been scrolling X and seen someone's hosting one I might be little I wonder what they're saying but I don't think it's a great way to get your point across especially for a new whistleblower coming forward there's no structure there's there's a danger on that live platform of being misinterpreted or saying the wrong thing and I think that came across and I can't exactly remember what the aspect of Jason's story was that they didn't change Secret Space Program no I remember that being controversial that someone someone asked him like were you in the Secret Space Program and he said yes and then they went running off going Corey Goode was right he did 30 and back and it's like you've taken something from that that he didn't mean no it was totally right that's totally fair but it was the color of the skin because when I spoke to him I was like you know on the Twitter Space it was like he saw a blue alien and everyone jumped on this blue colored smurf look and he was like no it was more like if me or you were cold and your skin goes that kind of hue that's what he meant but that's it's not the platform for someone to dig into that and clear that up so again yeah you've got your Twitter Space and a few hundred people listen or watch and start sharing clips totally out of context but it can actually end up being damaging to these people and going forward and actually you end up in not to get into detail and start naming people but there was a podcast this year where a guest went on it looks like shit went sideways and that person's now not doing too many interviews that's not ideal for me or you or other people who want to hear them I don't completely know we've heard one side of the story but yeah so that that can be detrimental to information coming out down the line as well but yeah that's the internet for you in 2025 slash 2026 going forward yeah it really is everyone's divided they're told by the algorithm that they're correct and to double down on what they want and that's what happens the one thing that I did love from Matthew Brown because he's writing a sub stack now and he's written like loads of articles and some I've got to say I suspect more than AI influenced some of the language in there kind of makes me think that but whatever it's 2025 people online don't use AI to write things right right do they M- Dan I mean sorry Dan it's not just Dan it's a guess yeah he wrote an article about taxonomy and kind of having to break down what we're talking about and the life forms we can encounter in a scientific way and I thought that was interesting because yeah we really need to get to we really need to get to that place and you know using UAP isn't specific enough you know we already know that the word drones kind of contains UAP when some people say and it doesn't when other people say it so I can see why we need this kind of taxonomy piece to come in and really be specific when we're talking about it you know using certain language because so many words mean so many different things to different people and we're at the point now where if we're going to scientifically talk about this we need to define these things in ways that are neutral not these are Pleiadians you know is it fair to say that I'm going to use you here specifically as an example right so we're not talking for other people you have an interest in what a whistleblower whether it's Dylan Borland Matthew Brown Lenville Logan Sarah Gamm Jason Sands what they have to say in their opinion after they come out based on an assumption of what they know and what they've been exposed to so Matthew Brown writing those articles your interest in those is based on a perceived knowledge he has or an assumed knowledge he has from inner workings of his job his exposure those documents being part of the UAP task force if those people that's why you're interested otherwise would you bother clicking on Matthew Brown's sub stack without that having been his background probably not you know he's not the first person to talk about taxonomy with this stuff that was happening in the 60s with people like Ivan Sanderson so the conversation is going on in other places and yeah you're right the reason that I give Matthew Brown time is because of the testimony he brought forward and the credentials behind that you know yeah like if tonight I could spout off a load of stuff tonight and then David Grush to do the same David Grush is going to get more attention and credibility than me because I'm speculating and but David Grush could be speculating but there's an assumed credibility in places coming from that we look and go ah shit he's hinting at something I like Matthew Brown I like the way he speaks I like his approach I think same as Dylan Borland there's an authenticity to both of them the way they speak the way they present themselves Matthew Brown didn't come out and just come across as incredibly confident when he was speaking he came across pretty nervous like oh I don't know if I should be doing this or not and you know a little bit shaky and for me that added to that authenticity of what he was saying something not to repeat myself but we've talked we've mentioned before how people have ideas in their head of what whistleblowers would look like you know are they six foot two strapping guys with suits on and you know these incredible backgrounds or are they skinny little dudes who maybe maybe a whistleblower comes out who's 19 has just been exposed to something off chance they're not what you think they are or what they would look like and I think a lot of that plays into it as well so the Matthew Brown and Dylan Boland for me just came across like normal guys who had interest in jobs in government in the military and ended up being exposed to different sides of it through you know one was kind of just wrong place at the right time or vice versa and the other one was just snooping about inside the folder and came across the Immaculate Consolation stuff what do you think from here the future of whistleblowers looks like I think it looks like I mean whistleblower protections is obviously a big thing they need to be protected in some way and when I say that I don't mean just physically like we've already established that but monetarily you know a lot of these guys are coming from you know they earn quarter of a million a year you know 100 grand upwards a year and so their lifestyle matches that so when you kind of come out swinging and you lose access to that it has a massive impact on your life and you know Matthew Brown he has this little story he sells t-shirts and stuff but let's be honest that's probably not touching the sides right that's going to be beer money for him and so if we want these whistleblowers to feel that they can just say everything and their lives not be affected which is you know ideally what they would want then there needs to be some kind of safety net for them and where that comes from you know I don't know I would think it was the US government's responsibility and not someone like you know the Sol Foundation but I know Sol are trying to do it as well so we need to kind of give them safety nets in that way too and when you said about the 19 year old whistleblower then I was thinking about Doge you know when Doge were going through all of the data in the US for whatever reason they were doing part of me was expecting one of them you know a kid was going to run forward with oh my god I found this UFO photo on this server in the DoD whilst we were plugging in you know you know what's going to happen now the next whistleblower coming out it's going to be some 19 year old young girl and people are going to be like Andy knew and I'll be like no no I literally a young girl whistleblower the community can barely talk to women barely talk to people but it's funny you're saying about whistleblower protections though Dan we said this last year and we said it the year before and here we are still seeing these things need to come in they aren't passing the legislation that's required to activate these is it just a case of that they need to find a different way to do it and you know with the best will in the world I had Jeff Nusatelli on recently and I plugged his the small GoFundMe he was raising like $8,000 or $9,000 for whistleblower funds you had the UAP disclosure fund which has now changed to disclosure foundation trying to raise money for that I think Jason Sands had something similar Herrera Michael Herrera was raising money I think in the small coffee store thing and like you see these are all kind of relatively paltry amounts of money being raised because you can't go to and I'm just I am presuming here right say Jeff Nusatelli raises $9,000 and goes to Dylan Borland I've raised you $9,000 mate how long is that lasting Dylan Borland right like I said if Dylan's got a house that's like $2,000,000 because he was working a really great job it might not touch one month of mortgage right he's probably behind on his payments and again let's just you know we'll use Dylan as an example here but he could be behind on payments because he's not worked for six months so he's trying to catch up he's got bills he has to pay he's got a car that needs fixed so these small amounts and this is what I think I said this to Jeff I'm pretty sure I did that it seems almost counterproductive having all these different people trying all these different funds because immediately it raises red flags for a lot of folks anyway right let's raise money for but yeah you're doing it you're doing it you're doing it you're doing it where's it going who's it going to when's it going to them there needs to be something probably more official where a bigger organization can bring all this in house but I don't think all the organizations seem to work that well or want to work together in that sense and then I suppose you've got means testing as to next week whistleblower x comes forward and goes yep I am also out of work because I spoke up about the legacy crash retrieval program I'll have me some of that children in need money slash UAP disclosure fund money how do you then decide actually no you're not getting any of it and then they come forward and say oh that's bullshit Dan they sit on your show you know what it means to be human and they say Dan yeah I you're welcome I applied for this fund and I didn't get it and you're going oh that's terrible that's awful but you don't know the guy's just a complete bullshitter yep so it's such a difficult situation but I appreciate you have to just go with gut I feel they're authentic whistleblowers next year it seems like we're going to get more Eric Burleson has said that they're talking to more folks in the background we're going to talk about hearings in just a moment where we'll talk about the future of hearings after I think there comes a point though there's only so many people can come forward and tell us their testimony I think we're already at that point of law of diminishing returns and I feel sorry for if another Dylan Borland came forward in three or four months time and tell a similar story they're probably going to get less of an empathetic reaction or sympathy from a community because oh yeah you as well yeah cool oh and yeah another one comes out oh you've lost your job and can't work either because yeah cool story though but yeah another one then comes out people care less and less rightly or wrongly you need something bigger to happen and again I think that's where for good or for bad wherever you sit with Luna Burchett Burleson the folks involved in UP caucus there's a lot of talking going on and I'm sure a lot of work happening but surely to god you have to have sat down and Grush is involved with that as well and went what is the plan for next year what are we going to do going forward yeah absolutely I think I saw Burchett say that the hearings at this point are kind of becoming damaging because it's just stories and no one's coming with anything substantial you know if someone puts something on a desk they can test it they can you know so on and so forth but the public there's two aspects to it right there's the politicians trying to inform themselves and they're busy people they don't get to do what we do and sit in this stuff day in day out so they'll get things wrong or go down the wrong paths but then also like the UFO community some of it just wants to be entertained and so you know they're fine with stories and they're fine with the really outlandish stuff but other people want it substantial you know like for me I'm not reliant on the US government to tell me this exists like I've seen things I've experienced things that I know will be on something and I know there's a lot of listeners that will feel the same way right there are also listeners who will go Dan's experience he probably saw you know something prosaic in the sky and got it wrong but also I want the proof from the US government and so this is partly for them disclosure the official narrative I would say isn't for people like you and I that have had these experiences and so do they want to entertain or do they want to solve this because if they want to solve this the hearings look very different to what entertaining looks like where it's kind of treading water and just telling stories and I think you almost like you say you get diminishing returns if it's the same thing again and so we almost need like a big event with lots of new people that are all this kind of person saying we're from inside the program please listen to us we're begging you there's 20 of us here and we're telling you this is real you need to look at this I think that would be more compelling at this point and I'm fairly sure James Fox has hinted a few times that there might be such an event coming this year maybe even sooner than people think yeah and I'm speaking to James Fox just after we finished recording this and that's on my notes to ask him about and obviously that was you know back in 2001 August 2001 the Stephen Greer National Press Club event everyone always references just before 9-11 happened you know you had all these whistleblowers come forward you know you had the women from NASA was always one of my favourites talking about you know they were airbrushing out the UFOs from the photographs and stuff like that really cool speculative in a sense but she did work there there was a credibility to her and I could believe that so yeah all of that together maybe we need a different approach you know a new coat of paint or a new paint of coat but on the hearings then Dan let's get on to the hearings so September we had the hearing with Dylan Borland Chief Alexandro Wiggins Jeff Nusitelli and George Knapp who am I missing off that list there was someone else wasn't there Mike Brown no is Brown the right no I'm mixing up the names the NASA guy no Gold was with Thelizondo and Gallaudet oh you're right he was further on all these episodes are mixing together now which kind of speaks to the point we just made 100% yeah but however that hearing and we'll find out Dan do you want to google that for me by the way I feel really bad now you're you're quicker at googling stuff than me these hearings I thought this was better than the one we had before with Gold Elizondo Schellenberger I felt I thought Knapp was great in this one I thought it was something a little bit different while George Knapp wasn't bringing forward direct evidence he was bringing a different approach that journalistic sense that the work he has done over the years the stuff he's been exposed to he dropped some names you know Glenn Gaffney who was the other one he mentioned do you remember the Lockheed guy I want to say James something I've definitely got it written down James he was an actor James Ryder James Ryder yeah that sounds right so yeah so hard to keep track Knapp dropped some big bombshells on that and he gave some real food for thought I think I enjoyed the hearing can you give me your thoughts Dan on that hearing particularly quickly I know we've touched on kind of hearings but then we'll get to the video separately yeah sure I mean gotta start out with the video right the video I think distracted things there was really interesting things said in that hearing especially what Dylan Borland kind of brought forward you know a lot of actionable things there and really the only one anyone the only thing anyone took away from it was the video and there is so much debate around the video again it's one of those UFO videos that is fuzzy enough that you can believe it's aliens if you want to but also fuzzy enough that you can believe it's prosaic if you want to and so it's kind of choose your own adventure and the point of you know the hearing wasn't that video that was just kind of shown as an example and I think it was kind of I mean it took the wind out of the sails of the hearing I know we kind of did a show right after the hearing to talk about it and we said it meant like the only thing people are talking about from this is the video and going forward unless it's definitely anomalous with like you know multiple videos from multiple sensors and they can really show it in a robust way I would prefer for videos to just stay out of it because like I say it sucks the air out of the room and it distracts from the important things that are being said it was Spielberger by the way was the guy's name the other one I almost had it yeah he was the wait from the whistleblower organization yes the independent one is that right yes sure so yeah 100% agree I don't know if you saw I had the guy on the podcast who's in the discord as well who broke down his background in the military working with hellfire missiles and he was like look as soon as he and again folks he thought when he first saw the video wow this is incredible and then as soon as he heard it was a hellfire missile he went ah right and he kind of clicked in his head what he believed it was and yeah so for me that doesn't for me show much other than something being hit and deflating it does then jump to oh yeah this is the object continuing to move but we all know what it can look like when you're filming something from a height if that object's moving and parallax and all that kind of stuff so yeah I wouldn't keep going over and trying to damage this video but they said they got this video the day before I've heard the provenance of the video actually goes back a little bit longer than that I'm not entirely sure I don't think they were can I ask how long I know some people in the audience would be like wait how did you know since when just that people had seen it not just the day before but the claim was weeks or years at least okay but like the presentation of that so that's an issue for me already though that yeah we only got this yesterday well actually I think what they said was they got it that day and then it was like no we got it yesterday but they showed it yesterday to people so they didn't show up for the first time at the hearing so again you're not being completely transparent that's not ideal and then to show the folks even if it was for the first time at that table and say what do you think of this Dan if me or you were sitting at that table and were asked for the first time looking at that video we would both probably go wow that's actually really interesting that's pretty cool but you're sitting at a distance looking at a screen and a blob on a screen but then if you give a little bit of time and some context and you get some more information in that perhaps can change 100% agree the video should have been kept separate I would still give that to Corbell and that to present and let folks make up their mind give it to Ross Coulter and let him present it and folks can make up their mind it took away from the hearing I think as a sidebar and we talked about this we were recording at the time Charlie Kirk got shot we literally had to pause the recording that was the day after the hearing that completely stole the news cycle understandably that was a huge event that had repercussions that took away any potential impact of that hearing we won't know it was almost like the hearing never happened essentially because of that situation afterwards so I thought the hearing was better than the last one however there comes a point of if we get another hearing next year with names that we know again we get another former military member coming forward and how difficult it must be for them to do that sitting in that chair telling a story of I was based at Camp X I went outside one evening with one of my colleagues we were guarding nuclear assets this huge glowing orb appeared over the top of us it was there for a short time we were debriefed it went away blah blah blah people are going to go wow yeah that's cool next yeah because we've had it we need something more yeah like I said it's difficult because there might be 10 people that have that story and it's completely real story but it's diminishing returns you know we know this from like movies when you make a sequel that's just the same as the first one people kind of roll their eyes and they'll see the second one but maybe the third won't do as well and just diminishing returns across it right so it needs to be substantial and not fluff and it's almost amazing to me as well that you know six seven years ago we would be chomping at a bit for any ufo hearing but we've come so far now that we're like you know we've had so many of them we're kind of bored of them now nice six seven by the way I'm too old for it to be pick up in my brain immediately but nice I hear it daily in my household so I don't know if you're just playing the algorithm there but thanks for that six seven folks yeah get all the keywords in there for the algorithm we pick up on that 3i atlas change direction we'll get to that but yeah so hearings we'll get to when we talk about predictions and stuff but real change of direction speaking of 3i atlas Beatrice Villarreal I got to see her present back in Durham University earlier this year I'm pretty sure it was April and she talked about work they were doing coming out in the near future on transient objects basically pre-Sputnik satellites that weren't satellites objects in the sky stars points of light things whatever you want to call them that are in certain photographs and then not in photographs a few months later when if they were stars they should be there really different scientific angle and approach to this topic Dan it's gathered some pace some momentum it is not perfect and we've got to be honest and say it's not without its detractors there are people saying there are reasons for this potentially however this does look like a really simple way to present to the public look here is picture A this was taken on this date here is 12 stars in this picture these stars don't move in this picture five of them are gone three months later they should all still be there what were those five objects and Beatrice Villarreal and her team have thousands of examples of this what's your take on Beatrice Villarreal that scientific community and the transient objects this is one of my absolute highlights of the year because this is what we've been screaming for for the scientific community to take it seriously and here is a scientist that's put her reputation on the line put out a of scientists who were otherwise debunkers I would say actually engage in the conversation now because there's a peer reviewed paper and lots of scientists said we'll engage if there's peer review and some of them are some of them are great this is what we want even if it turns out to be nothing let's solve this and essentially it spot the difference isn't it like here they are and here they my mind was you know they looked into the darkness as well and found that they weren't present on the plate so they're not defects on the plates like so many people were saying and it's easy to see when someone hasn't read the paper because they don't know that you know they'll just say oh they just plate defects and it's like no there was reflections there was the reflections were commented on atmospheric phenomena there was a lot of stuff people were like it could be this it could be this and it could be but this is how for the love of God Dan for five and a half years we have said the same thing okay scientists go and science science the shit out of it and it's like yeah go and that's the Martian right Matt Damon in the Martian yeah does he say maybe subconscious I'm going to get sued now but yeah that's the point though is the science is there there's data go and disprove it and people like me and you will be like cool that's fine we're not going to and again we'll get to the atlas and the bullshit around that but we're not going to go nah this is all debunking nonsense no that's fine if you can show us that actually this is what this was this is what this was we've cleaned it all up that's fine but it's looking like just with the sheer volume of examples they have the fact they're using it's not modern data they're not looking through stuff from the 80s 90s 2000s where you've got Starlink satellites in the sky the ISS is up there they are going back unless the Nazis had a whole lot of secret satellites kicking about in orbit interesting thought then and that's a whole other conversation if that is the case shout out to Darcy we are in the space program documentaries I'm sure he would love that idea but it's looking like there are captures in these photographs and I love the data around it's something like 63% of the time there's been a nuclear test within days of these photos being taken these objects appear and reappear these objects appear and reappear within a reasonable time frame what are they where did they go there are questions legitimate questions to be asked that for me even with my UFO tinted spectacles on I don't think are unfair or biased and I think it could be really interesting if nothing else maybe we discover a new type of space phenomena yeah absolutely right and that's what it's about you just chase the phenomena that's unknown and you define it and then maybe it's you know something that we can use for space travel or you know to as a clock from the stars like we do with neutron stars and things like that these things always open up new paths of study that we didn't think of before and the most startling thing for me for this was like you say the stats on the data six sigma in science if you do something and it's six sigma you can go it's 99.9% sure I can't say 100% sure because I don't absolutely know everything yet you know dark matter and dark energy make up 96% of the universe so until we understand that we can't say 100% but you can get pretty damn close you know if you if I pick something up and I let it go after about three attempts I can be fairly sure that the thing I let go is going to land on the floor beneath me and you know we would say that's six sigma or we keep testing it until then pretty certain right I am six sigma sure that when I put my cup on this table the cup is not going to go through the table that's the gold bar so here there was a significant alignment to the nuclear stuff that was about 3.9 sigma which was awesome like that's really good you know you're starting to understand the cup isn't going to go through the table like fairly damn sure but in terms of the transients in the earth shadow of them not being plate defects or reflections and actual objects reflecting in space it was 22 sigma so six is certain there are 22 like I would like to be 22 certain about anything in life yeah it's the same as like you know bottles of bleach I always love this fact when it says kills 99.9 percent of germs right they are actually certain that it kills 100% of germs but they can't say that for legal reasons because they can't literally prove it will kill every germ but it will but that's why they put 99.9 percent on bottles yeah they have to legally do that what's the other one the other one that always comes up is condoms you know they say 99.9 effective because they don't want to get sued if someone gets pregnant after using one do they Dan is that what they say yeah I've been married too long don't even worry about that kind of stuff and by that you're just you're potent what can I say yeah I've got a great record I am six seven sigma when it comes to creating babies folks as my poor wife found out what a quote yeah what a quote six seven sigma get that on a t-shirt Matt Damon already has probably speaking of the movies so let's get to Hollywood Dan before we get to some listener stuff Age of Disclosure finally came out and we've not discussed this yet now we did discuss premiering back in March at South by Southwest it then had a long delay lots of rumors of the delay was distribution rights looking for a really good deal monetization timing maybe they were going to run it alongside the NDAA stuff there was rumors of people involved in a production falling out over different things but at the end of the day it came out November 21st small theatrical release more for promotional purposes and that online release via Amazon Prime Dan Age of Disclosure your thoughts I was just looking for my notes on it from when I made them but I can't find them so just off the top of my head I really enjoyed it it was a bit long I would say I much preferred the second half of the film where you know Lou was in front of the whiteboard that was kind of surprising and fun it's all stuff we've heard before and so I think for people in the community they rightfully were like wait this is 20 bucks to just rent and I already know the stuff that's in it it's a really well produced documentary really shiny looks mega Hollywood but the target audience I think was muddled because who you want watching this is people like my mom right who's gonna go what the hell oh my god this is crazy and just get a really good education about what's been going on and be startled by Marco Rubio making those comments that he did in the movie and stuff but what ended up happening it was aimed at the UFO community who already knows all of this stuff and were you know I feel comfortable saying that there were there seems to be a lot of people in the community who were miffed they had to pay 20 bucks to rent this and watch it we were all and I know we said this we thought it would make more of an impact like you know logging into Netflix and having it there for people to watch or built in with Amazon Prime so you don't have to pay extra but it was it was well produced it's really well packaged it's a nice little on-ramp I enjoyed the focus of it and especially around that time as well there was a lot of just nonsense in the community so I was like oh look at this this is what the story is without all this kind of BS fluff that's happening on social media focusing around Lou's story was you know interesting it gave a nice through line for the documentary but at the same time I was really concerned by some of the things they left out and I understand that there are time constraints that when you get into certain things you suddenly have to get into other things you know if you mention Orsap in passing you suddenly have to get into Skinwalker Ranch and there's a bunch of things that kind of pour off that but is that not the same as making a documentary about John Lennon but not mentioning the Beatles yes and that's why it bothers me I think especially you know there was no mention of TTSA who we know started all this kind of rolling and again I get that there's a lot to go into there but just that's your point because I would have liked that but then you have to then go yeah but TTSA was this Tom DeLonge is this guy actually Tom DeLonge was speaking to Podesta Podesta was involved with the Clintons so the Clintons and then WikiLeaks and then you've now got 12 hours of bonus content that you're siphoning through on that so I totally get that yeah exactly and I know Dan Farah has said that there'll be a sequel that deals with some of this stuff but I think it'll kind of muddy the waters for people that felt that the narrative was clear suddenly hearing like oh there was another thing called OSAP and there's a whole thing called TTSA and what's this how does this fit into the story but then also whilst watching it I was thinking well what about the narrative we presented from Tom's advisors in Secret Machines you know it goes back into paperclip and it goes back into reverse engineered technology and how that's being used in the world with this real strong kind of Nazi connection there and essentially that just all fell by the wayside and so I was a little confused as to where that narrative has gone because it's really startling you know that would have been a great thing to kind of build up to to kind of say okay we can see this since the 50s we brought these scientists across and they were talking amongst themselves and we couldn't keep tabs on them and now they've seconded this technology for themselves and we can't get at it and it's in some deep black program but again maybe for time so can I ask a reason for that then could be and you're listen people have asked about your obviously you're you're closer with Lou Elizondo like you have hung out with him several times and whatnot right so there's no point in hiding that this took three years to make this wasn't like a six month production the narrative was then perhaps about out of date by the time it came out because it seems if this had come out three years ago or even two years ago when Lou was more prominent before his book came out and before we knew a lot of this Lou was clear I'm presuming Lou was heavily involved in the making of this because Dan Farah was involved in promoting Lou's book and the marketing of it and we see the manager for it or whatever it was because he was involved in the press release wasn't he with the rights for the book before Eminent even had yeah well he was he was manager and agent right because there was that lawsuit that went on between him and Lou that was apparently no bad blood in that lawsuit it was just a case that Dan Farah was producing the documentary but he also represented Lou when negotiating salary for said documentary it was a friendly lawsuit in entertainment law it was a lawsuit between friends and yeah so as they do here as they do here in the States especially in Hollywood you know what's a lawsuit between friends but so and I don't mean it to sound detrimental but then it's kind of a Lou Elizondo vehicle so yeah he's heavily involved in it it does lean heavily on his side of the story I'm really curious and this goes back to something we've talked about often that lots of rumors around Jay Stratton being unhappy and members of Jay Stratton's family immediate family i.e. wife being unhappy with Lou's book and the content of Lou's book a lot of folks are like oh it's great to see Jay and Lou together in this documentary we don't know that those scenes weren't filmed two and a half years ago before that book came out so we don't know that they are still on speaking terms obviously it's all rumor until it comes out and we can talk about predictions for next year Jay Stratton's book is due to come out Ross Coulthart said January or February recently on News Nation I don't think that's the case you'd expect some pre-orders by now if that was the case there's nothing online there's not even like ISBN numbers there's no stamp of it online usually that kind of stuff appears really early my book folks Atlas of UFO was available on Amazon that was on Amazon that was on that was on Amazon back in April I just never told anyone I think one person emailed and even said to you at the time my wife knew and that was it and I had a listener email me back then like Andy is this yours and I was like they just happened to find it so that was like six months before it came out Jay Stratton's book is going to be probably slightly bigger than mine and don't laugh at that and I imagine it's not about the sizes about what you do with it right absolutely yeah a lot of blank pages but I don't think it's going to be January or February for Stratton's book however there's a good chance Stratton's book comes out and contradicts some or some amount of what Luella Zondo has said in the past there's a potential there so has Age of Disclosure been a Dan Farrah production heavily influenced by Luella Zondo because that's the initial guys who got together other folks then got involved Lue is featured heavily throughout the documentary yeah but I summed up really quickly because I've said it so many times the cost was prohibitive you make a really good point about and this is purely my opinion let me stress that I always say that before I say something controversial you're right the audience was Dan's mum not to get into the whole comment people's mums online again that happened years ago just my mum the audience was Dan's mum that is not a way to promote a market documentary folks Dan's mum does not have the kind of capital that's going to make your money back on that although it seems to be the way the Marvel movies have been going but the audience I don't think you said it was aimed at the UFO community I don't think it was I think they got it the wrong way around where they made a movie for the UFO community and then marketed it to the general public sure I would agree with that if you made it the other way around where you made a movie for the general public the UFO community are going to market it for you and going to watch it anyway they might want to turn it to bits that's fine but you kind of end up in the middle of do you accomplish either now I can't be disparaging because it's done well and I have to entry on Amazon Prime maybe in the future I will but right now I don't know is that a thousand rentals Dan is that five thousand rentals is that a hundred thousand it's going to change daily right like if nothing's come out for the week and then something comes out that gets 50 views in the first two minutes it's going to be number one yeah exactly we don't know but it looks great on marketing say my book was number one in the UK UFO charts over Christmas has been for the best part of three months I'm not selling copies of my book but I'm selling enough that in that niche it hits a point so the social media impact for me has been the real positive of this I think far more people have been influenced by the documentary off the back of clips online and Dan Farah on Joe Rogan than people actually renting and watching Age of Disclosure I think they got the market a little bit wrong for it in terms of maximising potential I'm not one to tell Hollywood folks what to do and not to do that's just me but I think what they've landed on a winner with is folks sharing clips online afterwards like you say where that goes in future are they going to take three years to make another one of these does it look like a documentary that took three years not particularly you know given what was said in it and what the content that was covered could James Fox do that in six months probably I'll ask him I mean James I would say you know I think I posted when this came out if the phenomena wasn't a movie Age of Disclosure would not exist it owes a debt to James and the way he approached just the tone the level of production there you know James just really set the bar he brought the UFO kind of movies documentaries into the modern era with that and made something that just can't be laughed at like that that's the thing that I always take away when I watch the phenomena I'm like there's nothing that you can laugh at in this this is really serious poet based like oh my god it's really concerning but yeah Dan Farah kind of lent into the Hollywood space for this and I think you're right like marketed it to the general public and that number one thing it always rubbed me up the wrong way I've seen two things about this movie one that it's nominated to be nominated for an Oscar and two that it you know was number one and so like wow this is amazing I remember when Blink-182 brought the new album out and it didn't get to number one so they released like a track the next day that you could buy five bucks on their website that all the fans that had already bought the album went and paid five bucks to get and that nudged it into number one it was number one for like a day but that was a year and a half ago and to this day now they're like Blink-182 is number one album so it's just a marketing term yeah it's optics it's a marketing term and the same with this Oscar stuff as well getting nominated to be nominated if you're actually nominated that's something that's been voted on but being nominated to be nominated I could make a movie and pull it forward and get on that list that's not something that anyone's had to achieve it's kind of like the Hollywood walk of fame you know with the handprints on the floor they pay for that a studio pays for that and actor pays for that it's not an achievement you know so there's all this marketing stuff around it that is just kind of making me go you know like this is where we are now we've made it to Hollywood good but at the same time we've made it I'll make my point and I'll ask you a final question on it was that surely the people involved in this topic in the halls of congress the halls of power the senate the presidential levels and below were already briefed and knew this information long before this documentary came out this documentary surely don't call me surely surely wasn't made that we're going to make this and Trump will then have to make an announcement because he's going to see this and go shit I never knew this beautiful documentary right I imagine that's a good impression thanks I imagine that's not the case but it's kind of the way it was put across so for me do you feel this documentary has had or will have the impact that we all hoped it would have or have they kind of made a documentary in part to capitalize on the popularity of UFOs and make a bit of money so I think I think it's missed the mark on the impact it was meant to have but it's having another impact which is just the same as you know anything James Fox makes which is it's an on-ramp to get people into the conversation to get them chatting about it I think it's a dry on-ramp I mean yeah sure you need some loop from that on-ramp then Valet's books are dry too and I still read those you know sorry I know I said but that's not a general public thing right like valet rights for people in the community it's like a specialist thing think of a random friend of yours who is not into the UFO topic who you never really speak to UFOs about someone even you knew from school or college or whatever it may be right and they say to you I'm going to give this UFO a go and I've seen these two documentaries one of them's called The Phenomenon and one of them's called Age of Disclosure I literally have time to watch one what one are you recommending? The Phenomena don't even need to think about it yeah right and I just think it was more it was more emotionally compelling like when I think of The Phenomena I think of that aerial school segment that just grabbed my heartstrings and I just felt for those kids and I was like what the hell did they go through oh my god this is really emotionally hitting me James is really good at getting the emotion in the story across whereas I think Dan Farah there are a few attempts throughout but it's kind of left by the wayside it's a very like this happened then this happened then this happened then this happened then this happened isn't this crazy and also it's very clearly for me a push to get the UAPDA passed the UAP Disclosure Act and it came a year late for that in my opinion because the wheels came off it this year and we kept hearing from different politicians it's still in there it's still in there but was it like can I use a Marvel reference so it's a bit like Civil War is the one that starts with is it Zakovia is that Zakovia Accords yeah so there's the accidentally Wanda blows up some shit accidentally kills people and then you have one of the best Marvel movies Captain America Civil War really cool fight scenes one of the best considered the Avengers movies right even though it's not an Avengers movie but it is so you've got that movie or and that's the phenomenon the other option is instead of watching that let's watch a two and a half hour courtroom scene where you've got Captain America Iron Man Spider-Man all that but they're all in suits and it is the legalities of what they've done and it is literally two and a half hours of them in a courtroom going back and forward and someone says to you I want to get into the Marvel movies which one of these should I watch I mean you're not you're not recommending the courtroom thing right like and even for me like as a big fan of that stuff I would be watching Civil War first and then thinking like oh yeah there's this extra feature where I can see like a court case scene for a couple of hours with these characters that'll be interesting I'll check it on I love this stuff but that's not going to appeal to the casual cinema goers that made you know Endgame and Infinity War earn over a billion two billion dollars each they're going to go where's the UFOs where's the videos right exactly and so it's just all this like choose your own adventure kind of stuff again and I didn't address your thing about Jay Jay's book is going to be interesting I think but there have been arrows slung you know there's no denying that and like you say it could have been filmed like two three years ago good and direct but I think we have to remember that you know they're co-workers in an office I'm sure if I spoke to your co-workers about what you do they would not know half of what you do they would not because I don't do much but you know it speaks to it right like we don't know what each other is doing and so for me Jay's book is a really important part of the puzzle and I'll kind of fit those together as I kind of read through it and I'm sure we'll talk through it but I'm not going to be mad at anyone for getting the story wrong you know it's perspectives yeah 100% and I can see that happening I think we've said as much in multiple chats we've had Dan about it between Lou and Jay there's going to be a little bit of crossover and a little bit of yeah he said this but now he said this and then sometimes one will be right one will be wrong other times the truth will be somewhere in the middle and we just have to kind of work that out to use Blink 182 as an example again so they had like an old drummer that got kicked out of the band just before Enema of the State came out you know the album with all the small things that were huge when you talk to that drummer him and Tom started Blink when you read Mark's new book that just came out Mark and Tom started Blink when you talk to Travis and you read his book he kind of influenced you know the creation of the band we know today as Blink so that area doesn't matter they're all correct in their own ways yeah yeah I seen a little video on that the other day where they interviewed the original drummer Scott Rayner and it was a little little caption of what he was saying just like fuck Travis he's a good guy he does a lot of community work like teaching teaching music in the community and stuff so good for him you know what I do who wants to have 100 million dollars in a bank tour with an internationally renowned band and Maria Kardashian but he's much happier much happier but that's the thing right like when I think of that I'm like eh you know how much of that life does it take to your life does it take to do something like that you're away from your wife and your kids all the time is that sliding doors you know does Blink yeah does that even become a thing that you even know of if he's still the drummer no offence Scott right no exactly like I don't think they do but at the same time they were a different thing before but this isn't a Blink 22 podcast maybe we should start one I don't know there will be UFOs in it not yet um so Stay With Hollywood Disclosure Day trailer has dropped and again we have not spoken about this um no I'll give you my thoughts first then Dan uh I am really excited for this I think the trailer's brilliant I like Emily Blunt um I like the look of it I like the tone of it I like the sound of it um I like the trailers kept things pretty mysterious they've kept any potential aliens out of it to the point there's almost an argument that it ends up not being alien related it will be alien related but they've kept it that vague where they could pull a fast one on us um I am really excited for this however I don't buy into again some of the bullshit clickbait stuff that they have used real alien sounds for the alien voices we have seen movies and TV shows before where aliens make weird sounds and clicks I mean if anyone's seen the Predator the Predator movies for a start literally has that kind of rattle in its voice so yeah the idea yeah it's going to be a big blockbuster movie I think people will go and see this in the general public that can only be a good thing for the overall topic the quality of the movie will remain to be seen when it comes out there's every chance we go see it and be disappointed it could be really good I think it's it's not going to be super you know super beta or macro or whatever people say where people are like oh my god the minutia there'll be little easter eggs for folks in the UFO community but it'll be broad enough for your average person to go and watch it and understand the beginning the middle and the end um but I loved it really excited for it looking forward to seeing an extended trailer which should no doubt come out in the coming months what's your take on it I'm really excited for it uh it wasn't what I expected and I always say this I love it when something is more I expected that's what I want from things uh I just expected you know I'd heard that the film may open with the Nimitz encounter and so I expected just nuts and bolts I guess I expected nuts and bolts you know Bill Grayman I'd also heard that it was connected to Close Encounters of the Third Kind and stuff like that but instead it just seems not to be it seems to be like a new approach to a UFO story um and I love that I wonder how it's gonna go down in the community because I remember how Nope went down you know when it just wasn't Skinwalker Ranch weirdness and actually presented something that was a fairly interesting niche idea to explore right um Tonally reminded me a lot of Taken and Spielberg that's a series a 10 episode series that kind of goes from you know the 40s to the modern day uh with lots of different actors and stuff um looking at the UFO subject and how humans have dealt with it since it kind of started and that was fantastic so tonally I think it's perfect it's looking good the effects look a little bit naff but they always do at this point you know they've got like a year to work on things um the bit that got me and you know the trailer really pushes this as the bit to get people was when we think of alien invasions you know we think of something like Pluribus finding the signal or we think of something like Independence Day ships coming down or signs you know like the proper invasion but when I first watched the trailer I was like oh I didn't like that but then when I watched it a few more times I was like no actually I love this kind of reveal scene of Emily Blunt presenting the weather or the news and this channel coming through her and taking over her body to talk to people via the TV and I was thinking like yeah in the modern day this is what you would do right and everyone would the news would spread on social media and everyone would start tuning into that channel you wouldn't necessarily need ships kind of coming in you can just talk that way if you had that kind of technology and we haven't really seen an approach like that in a UFO movie you know to include channeling to include taking over people to include that kind of like mass awareness moment there isn't a ship over the White House or something like that which would be the expectation so I feel like we're going to get like a refreshing approach that will stoke the conversation but like you said I also hope that people just see it for what it is and that is that aliens got popular someone said oh we really love an alien movie from Spielberg hey Spielberg would you like to make one and he goes oh I've got this great idea that I've been you know wangling around for a while why don't I try that so they go for it you know they get the guy from Close Encounters to write the script and off they go but it's a movie right like it's interesting when these ideas come about but it is a piece of entertainment and people are only going to be disappointed if they go into it thinking that what's contained is real it might be real in the sense that yeah it could be a case that's happened that they're kind of extrapolating from and bits that they're including in the movie but it doesn't mean that it's soft disclosure you don't think there's any chance they're laying the groundwork for something that they could turn back and say say we do get an announcement late in 2026 that they could turn back and go look folks at this point we have a little bit of knowledge not as much as you think Trump's came out and said we're not alone you know there we go and if you go and watch Disclosure Day we worked with Director Steven Spielberg to try and put into kind of movie form a little bit of what's happened and what we know if you go and watch Dan Farah's Age of Disclosure you're going to see some information there and people talking about some things that we know and then you've got a body of evidence for the public to go back and look at and go right I need to catch up on this in a couple of days because I've just been told aliens are real but what we can actually do even then the TV schedules that night worldwide it's going to be do you know what folks you're going to see Age of Disclosure you're going to see Disclosure Day you're going to see James Fox is a phenomenon these have been carefully curated by a presidential review panel as the best pieces of entertainment or infotainment that we can show you that will give you a rough idea as to what we think might be going on or am I going a bit too far off the reservation for you there I think it's a little too far for me not that you're going off the reservation you're perfectly sane but it's a little too far for me just because you know Spielberg he's there are a few stories around Spielberg from over the years one is that you know they screened ET in the White House and the president you know at the time was crying and you know oh was it Close Encounters I think it was Close Encounters right and it was alluded to that maybe there's more truth to this than anyone realized when they were making it but I think that story especially highlights the fact that Spielberg didn't have inside information when he made it and he made it based on the work of some incredible UFO investigators the other story that kind of comes along is that Spielberg was one of the people that kind of really early on knew about aerial school and again that comes from his connection to UFO investigators so it's not necessarily that he has inside information he's just further down the learning path than you would think a director that's working 24-7 and super busy and super famous would be in this subject but that's not to say that I couldn't be wrong about that right it would be a hell of a way to go hey yeah we know we know it's a lot we informed this movie for you but it just reminds me of Stargate where people thinking Stargate is a documentary and it had Air Force involvement so they could get the ranks right and the insignia and the uniforms and use the equipment but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Air Force signs off on everything that is in Stargate right so I think we have to be careful with those distinctions entertain it sure it would be cool but is it definitely that I don't think you want to go telling your friends like hey come see Disclosure Day with me it's real I think you'll leave the cinema and be like I'm gonna head off now y'all you know now your answer's not great for social media clips so can you just say yeah Andy that sounds exactly right and I'll clip that out and just make it sound that you've agreed with me yeah Andy that's an incredible thought I think that's exactly right yeah yeah I think it's a bit far-fetched myself but yeah no yeah no that's totally fair and do you know what Dan we're gonna end up running out of time so I'm gonna have to skip the listener stuff so we'll come back to that and it will be used folks before we get to predictions Dan I want to get your thoughts on the 3i Atlas now I have kept an eye on your channel Dan and your social media postings what I've noticed Dan is you've chosen to not on a daily basis post information about 3i Atlas and what it may or may not be doing in terms of it being an alien spacecraft that's an interesting route to go down it's one I chose myself why did you do that? I love that you noticed that and the reason I did that is because I'm very interested in 3i Atlas but the conversation around it on social media is by far my kind of disappointment of the year you know it kind of touches in other areas too like the pillars beneath the pyramids that kind of stuff but there's this weird thing where people they actually this is a better example so if you watch Graham Hancock show right what you'll witness is Graham Hancock going to experts talking to experts getting some incredible information and stories and letting the audience know like wow this megalithic site is amazing and then he'll go off and like spin it in his own way and add all of these like bits of speculation that kind of prove his books right in his eyes and so you've got this weird relationship where he's slagging off the experts that he's talking to but also can only have the conversation because he's talking to the experts and so there's kind of an irony there that the experts are providing you data you go I believe you that there's an object in the solar system that you've interpreted this data correctly but I'm going to choose not to believe you as to what that object is and that's really weird to me like how do you how you can't have both of those things right and I understand there were some questions around it you know but we had to remember that 3i Atlas literally means third interstellar and captured by Atlas that was that was the instrument that first saw it so it's the third interstellar meteor we've seen right so we don't know a lot about them so there are going to be anomalies with them if I've only seen two dogs I'm going to think dogs are all black or they're all brown if they're the color of the dogs I've seen dogs are all sorts of colors they're all sorts of shapes and sizes it would be really dumb for me to just go oh well I know everything about dogs now and then if I see a third dog that's yellow I might be thinking oh dogs can be other colors and it would expand my ideas right and it's fair enough to go out into the world with an expectation that dogs can be multiple shapes sizes and colors and that's kind of where we find ourselves with three atlas that we got these two objects that didn't necessarily fit this third object but the third object showed us that these objects can be more varied I've said object too much and we don't we just don't know a lot about it like we're realizing the limits of our knowledge and each object that's kind of coming in has these anomalies that it's like oh that didn't go like we expected based on comets we've seen that live in our solar system and so it's kind of new science so when people are saying like oh it's an anomaly yeah sure cool study it you know do the science to study it don't go run into Twitter saying hey everybody if you go outside when atlas is it's closest your spirit will ascend and you'll carry on like we've done that before that's Jonestown that's Kool-Aid that's Heaven's Gate Halbop and all right and all of these people that are doing this they never came back you know they haven't come back and said like oh actually I got that wrong it was this object and so like I just find it stomach churning to witness the level of disrespect people have towards their audience and they just want clicks right like you said earlier we could lean into this being a spaceship and both make bank off it you know like we know what we're doing with like the little bits of the phenomena we could make up a story that would be compelling I think but we don't because we choose to listen to the experts it's fine to ask questions but the data is the truth is in the data right that's what we're saying with UFO stuff that's why we want the data so listen to the scientists sharing this data with you about 3i Atlas it's still incredible even if it's not an alien spaceship and the fact that they were looking to say it was a comet means that they're looking and would notice if it was a spaceship too so you can't just slag these people off at the same time as lifting up their work to say wow look at this thing it's weird yeah I mean sticking with the dog thing Dan imagine like the first dog you ever saw was one that had like and I feel awful saying this but you know the little wheels for the back legs because they had them amputated right and that's the only dog you've ever seen and then the next time you come across a dog with four legs you're like what the fuck is this this is so messed up oh my god this is like can you imagine this can't be real and or someone shows a picture of a dog with four legs and you're like oh my god yeah that's that's incredible turns out you'd be like it's nonsense yeah this is how they're meant to look no no no no no no they've normally got wheels on the back it's like right and it just it speaks to relative experience right like yeah I don't want to hop on it but there was a guy that I worked with at Apple and he was just uncomfortable about people from different backgrounds just name him Steve Jobs nice I mean he killed himself to get out he hated he hated he hated he hated diversity yeah but truth was like when I spoke to him about it because he wasn't rude to people he was just uncomfortable you know so I spoke to him about it and he was like I grew up in an area where it was all just white people and so I don't know how to act and he was coming across it as a 35 year old adult something that he'd never done before so he was adding data you know and he just didn't know how to act so we've got to take in the data around us and listen to it can't just make stuff up you should have nicknamed him 3i racist that would have been good but yeah but no no that's totally fair and the 3i Atlas stuff we won't a lot of folks had it down from listeners point of view as their low light of the year and I just yeah I mentioned before we hit record Dan I had a conversation with a guy in the gym a couple days ago and we talked about that whole it'd be so easy to make money online bullshitting and lying and everything like that you know actual grifting and he was like yeah but surely surely there's no audience for that but there is there's a huge audience oh my god it's the biggest audience feeding bullshit and then when something goes away or is proven wrong you just move on to something else it's really really easy to do so so yeah the Atlas it's a comet a really interesting one comet meteorite don't know what it is but yeah it's an interesting object in space but yeah that's a glimpse at the year that was 2025 we may not have recorded for a while Dan but we've done exactly the same as normal where we plan to do an hour and a half with the material I've got down and have not even got halfway through it yeah so normally I would go longer I don't even know if Dan had the time but I've got to record with James Fox coming up folks but if Dan's got time over the coming days I don't know I could get him back on potentially let's do it I'll ask him that while recording and put him under the pressure where he's like you said yeah while we're recording but I do have all the listener stuff to get through so if you hear this and you're quick because I'll try and get this out ASAP for folks over New Year send in any other questions or thoughts you might have and we can go over them come back at some of the stuff some of the comments we have made on this tell Dan why he's wrong maybe you hate dogs I don't know like yeah come back on it if you're the guy that Dan worked with at Apple tell us why you hate everyone Stu his name was but he was a nice guy you know he was very comfortable with people by the time I left so it was just an example where it was like people were seeing this and actually he just hadn't had the experience before and that's all it was he hadn't taken the white hood off and once he did no I'm joking that's a yeah once he could see through the eye holes better it was fine my favourite ever comedy sketches or one of them is Dave Chappelle's The Black White Supremacist if no one's if you have not seen that folks go and watch it incredible stuff I think it's like the very first one in the show yeah yeah yeah it's unbelievable but yeah 2026 Dan let's fire through some predictions real quick I've got some questions for you first off if you don't mind sure do we get the announcement from Trump or otherwise I'm going to go with it'll be Trump if it's anyone but do we get the announcement in 2026 no and I'm sorry to be a downer on that but just know like we've seen what's been happening with the Epstein files you can call yourself transparent whilst not being transparent and I think the actions speak louder than words here this Epstein stuff is going to drag out and out and it's going to suck up all the new cycle and you know if it actually comes to a head and Trump gets kicked out of the White House again more new cycle being sucked up so I just think they're not bigger fish to fry because this is a really big fish but just other things going on that is going to stop that announcement happening and who'd believe him anyway do you think we'll get a press release saying we are redacted alone and people it says we are not alone and it says we are definitely alone and everyone will just argue what the redaction is and we can go from there and that would be part of the course 100% 100% Jay Stratton's book give us like a one-liner on what it's going to tell us I guess it will tell us the story of ATIP and the UAP task force from Jay Stratton's perspective we'll probably hear a bit of behind the scenes stuff justifying the classification kind of guide they put together for it and I think it'll be really interesting it's another puzzle piece that's been outstanding for us all I suppose I should also answer these no I don't think we'll get the announcement from Trump the White House or otherwise the Jay Stratton book I hope we're going to get some let you say that stuff but also I don't really care about the drama I don't really care for it either way telling us that Lil Elizondo was full of shit and he was a low-level janitor or actually confirming everything I don't need that what I would like you to do is give us a little bit of depth on Jay Stratton and his involvement in some stuff that we go shit you know was he the type of guy who's been inside one of these things and he can allude to something like that perhaps who knows an indication of nothing being online can be the length of time it's being taken to go through the officer review for example or legalities around it for sure we also heard we've definitely heard that the UEP task force carried on with Project Haystack and that they may have been successful with it and that was where they were taking nuclear material or pretending to take nuclear material out with a big kind of load of equipment and attracting UFOs we've heard that that worked so hopefully Jay at least hints at it yeah does the James Webb telescope find something that indicates life oh my gosh so to this one I'm going to say the question is irrelevant because the scientists looked at the asteroid Bennu and found that all the ingredients for life are on meteors on you know comments going through the solar system so panspermia in the last two months and I totally understand why you know someone wouldn't have come by this because it's fairly new and it's kind of dry and boring but we know that panspermia i.e. comets and material carrying microbes and bits of DNA and different ingredients of proteins and things to start life is factual this happens we know that now that's only been confirmed in the last two months there is a question of whether directed panspermia is a thing so i.e. if we were to coat a rock in I know mucus and throw it at Jupiter you know that would be directed panspermia we're sending stuff there properly but life is according to science should be or probably I should say because that's the parlance they would use all around us we're just not understanding what it is outside of life as we know it so as I say James Webb for me you might find you know a techno signature or something like that that would obviously be big news but in terms of science confirming that we are not alone all the ingredients are there and quite frankly you're a tinfoil hat wearer now if you say that it's not possible if Elena asks you to go to the shop and buy her a cake do you bring her home flour, eggs, water and jam? yeah it sounds like yeah all the ingredients are there you can make it yourself now look you'll make the best cake no I wanted a cake no I get your point though and this one is based on one of my predictions I think we're going to hear more about USOs the whole water situation and hopefully really stretching it but a little bit more around the whole potential for underwater bases I think we might start to get a little bit more on that and these things being under the water because I think enough there's been enough pointing towards it over this year and when you've got Tim Burchett and Burleson and co starting to talk about this stuff you know they're being told it from someone it could be Greer it could be Richard Doty it could be David Grush it could be Louis Elizondo we don't know maybe they're reading Reddit but I would hope we're going to start hearing a little bit more about the whole USO phenomenon I don't think it's a separate phenomenon I think these things are the same things we see in space and the air flying through objects I remember that's something that's not talked about enough but I know you mentioned it multiple times over the years the whole transmedium travel should include through solid objects but yeah your take on the whole underwater situation are we going to hear more on that hopefully because I mean if we sent a probe to any planet and it had as much ocean as we have the sensible thing to do is to drop that probe in an ocean again it's just probably the correct thing to do for science so I feel like we're getting to a point where we're going to start thinking properly in that way now or we're going to get that thinking from experts who are interested in this like okay if they do come here where would they be oh probably in the water okay there's our axiom let's study the data there's next year Beatrice and her team said that they're going to look at the Baltic sea phenomena or the object and that's something under the ocean Dennis Asberg yeah so big debates over this for ages and they're finally going to send a rover down and have a look might just be rocks but it might not be so yeah definitely USOs there and that's again that's data we can grab and that's probably that will end up something peer-reviewed right yeah do you want to give us one or two predictions then you think will happen in the coming year so I think we're going to see the introduction of smaller pieces of legislation where the UAP disclosure act is done I think that's going to be broken up into multiple different things so they can just be focused and you know if they're just arguing over the review panel then we're not talking about animal domain and so on so forth I think breaking it up into different bits and just passing it piecemeal is probably the best way to do it and also then you can kind of pin down what the problem was with the previous one you know if nothing gets passed cool they don't want UFO stuff passed but if everything gets passed except eminent domain then we know eminent domain was the problem so breaking that up I think is a good idea are you essentially going to have to reverse engineer the legislation yes yeah exactly we're going to engineer and take a new approach yeah exactly and I think we're going to see probably I'm going to say inner space becoming more a part of the conversation thanks to stuff like disclosure day kind of having that kind of wooey approach to it we've always said you know the future of this conversation is the woo stuff it just takes a lot to get there because there's a lot of crazy stuff to understand but this year we had I don't know if people have read it Dan Brown's Secret of Secrets think Da Vinci Code but it's all about consciousness and remote viewing and what the CIA would be doing in modern day it's a really cool book highly recommend it a lot of people that we know about already I mentioned but it's a really cool narrative so I hope they make a movie but we're going to start getting to exploring that inner space a bit more you know research around psychedelics and consciousness that kind of stuff and then the highlight for me and I'm hoping we get it next year as opposed to the year after is that Stargate is returning did you ever watch Stargate not the series I've seen bits of it and also it looks okay I'm surprised you never said X-Files there though I mean that reboot's been going for a while so it might not be next year it might be the year after but I mean we had like a reunion in the X-Files as well so I'm not as chomping at the bit for it I'm currently rewatching the whole X-Files with Elena we just cleared season one so it's fun to kind of see it all in hindsight with everything happened that we know but yeah definitely looking forward to Stargate more than X-Files absolutely well Dan I know you're coming back on in a couple of days time then how can people find your work and your show yeah so they can have a look on social media just look for tobehumanshow.com that's T-O-B-E not to be like the pencil there's also a website I never even thought that would be an issue but yeah fair enough this is my ADHD brain this is where it goes but other than that just look for the show what it means to be human on YouTube or any other platform Spotify Apple Podcasts and you can find it have some really cool chats on there we just finished the year with a live show with people like Richard Hattam the screenwriter who made The Mothman Prophecies Lou Elizondo joined us as well and answered some interesting questions about General Albert Stubblebine the third the guy who thought that he could go through walls even walls yeah nice well thank you very much folks go and check that out go and check out Dan's socials I'll put them in the description link as well so you can just click on them below and in a couple of days we'll get through all that listener stuff that I am currently scrolling back through now so any questions for those I had a whole ton of stuff that wasn't even on the file but yeah we got through about I say two pages one page one page of my eight pages good chat yeah absolutely dusting the dust off and I'll have James Fox on this evening and in the coming weeks I've got obviously Joe McMoneagle should still be coming on folks people are emailing me asking me where that one is he literally had a medical episode the day before we were due to record he had to have a surgery he is recovering he did not expect that and will be coming on I'm still in touch with him so yeah thoughts he's getting on a little now right like how old is Joe oh he must be what 80 yeah early 80s or yeah but yeah so again it wasn't something he was expecting no remote viewing joke there obviously but yeah he's in touch with me he's good he's in good spirits and stuff and is basically look just say let me recover and I'll be on so yeah awesome but yeah thank you so much and speak to you very very soon that's all for this episode of that UFO podcast thank you so much for listening and watching if you enjoyed the show please follow subscribe and leave a rating or review wherever you get your podcast it really helps others find the show if you're watching on YouTube hit like subscribe and turn on notifications so you don't miss future episodes you can also support the show directly and get early access add free episodes and bonus content on Patreon or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts Spotify or YouTube memberships all the links are over at thatufopodcast.com or in the show description below along with merchandise and more don't forget you can also pick up a copy of my book Atlas of Unidentified Flying Objects available now in all good bookstores and through online retailers including Amazon big thank you again to all of you for listening and tuning in until next time keep looking up you never know what you might see