The Man Sitting On More UFO Evidence Than Anyone Alive

It's not only a UFO library, >> it's about the unknown. >> So, how many countries do you have files from? >> Oo, I don't know. I have no answer to that. But we have Japanese files, for instance, and Russian files. >> Wow. >> And they went out on in the field and brought back debris. >> What? >> From this crashed object. They were standing on the other edge of this carriage and they had very tight helmets, small small heads and some gloves. She was 8 m from them. Meet Claus von, journalist, author, and one of the world's most impressive UFO researchers. He's a real life Swedish fox moulder, and that's because he's basically in possession of the modern X-Files. I'm not kidding. Since the early 1970s, Spawn has not only reported on the phenomena for Sweden's largest newspaper, but he's spent decades [music] building, organizing, and preserving what is widely recognized as the world's largest UFO archive, the Archives of the Unexplained. This 16 room building houses detailed witness reports, photographs, audio recordings, radar data, video, and original first generation documents that no longer exist anywhere else. Time travel. There's a time travel section. What is this? Brown and Buridge. Towns in Brown. >> Yeah. >> I went to Eureka, California. >> I met with this guy in his garage and we packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden. Behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world, Borderland Science Research Association. >> What? There's something very interesting about them. They were new more than intelligence ina [music] certain cases in the ' 40s. In this episode, we go over a half ccentury of overlooked evidence. radar tracked [music] objects executing impossible right angle turns, military helicopters nearly colliding with wingless craft, sonar and radar returns, and of course, covert European UFO crash retrieval operations. We discussed the Swedish ghost [music] rocket craze of the 1940s. A swarm of at least 1,400 documented rocket [music] and cigar-shaped UFOs descending on Norway and Sweden, never landing on the ground, always plunging [music] into water. A swarm that even caused the Swedish government to form a specialized military unit. Claus von isn't just an archivist. He's a field investigator in his own right, interviewing experiencers and witnesses [music] at the very center of UFO history. He spent a lot of time with Betty Hill of the famous Barney and Betty Hill 1961 abduction case in New Hampshire. Everybody knows about this canonical abduction story. But Clauss dug a little deeper and found out that Betty outside of her abduction witnessed a UFO crash near her home. She even recovered the debris which she went on to bury in her backyard where it still might be to this day. >> I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain of knowledge today. >> Yes. >> But the mountain is resting on this mountain [music] >> that is even bigger. >> Yes. >> That is moving into the future. >> God give me. This episode is one of the hardest core summaries of evidence for UFOs I've ever heard. >> When you speak to other people, have you seen anything unnatural? Yes. Yes. But I Oh, I don't want to talk about it. Yeah. >> I brought my buddy Amar Candiel from Yes [music] Theory to the archives and we had a blast. What is your top UFO photo? Without further ado, please enjoy this week's Swedish alchemist, Clauss Swan. Ignition sequence starts. >> How is this possible? >> Nothing too unusual about that. >> Their existence cannot longer be denied. class. We're back. Thank you for being here again. Thank you for having us rather. We're at the beautiful archives of the unexplained. This is just one of 16 rooms and it's packed to the brim full of documents. Um and so yeah, this is so exciting. It's like a being a kid in a candy store and you've compiled all of this. >> We started in 1973. >> You started in 1973. >> So we've been around for a while. >> That's amazing. So, you've been literally compiling things since 1973. >> Yeah, that's right. >> That's incredible. Um, I want to start with something you have in your hand. >> Oh, yeah. >> What is that? >> This one. It's a metallic, a piece of metallic. >> It's from Sweden, >> an island called V, northeast of Stockholm. >> Okay. >> In 1957, two carpenters were driving their car in the middle of the night really because they were doing some work on Monday. This was Sunday and suddenly they saw this object coming from east moving in front of the car making a Uturn and suddenly hanging in front of the car which was totally died. So the car stopped and those two guys were sitting in the car and looking at the object and suddenly it went away exactly the same way as it came. So they went out of the car and took a look at on this road and they found this object there and it was hot so they couldn't really uh hold it in their hands. It was so hot so it was really burning them. Uh and the car started and they drew away. After many years this was um analyzed and I also analyzed it and it's tungsten or volbide. Uh this is very earthly. It have every impurity that it was in tungsten in 1957. But tungsten is a very good leader of heat. >> So this should have been cold in the middle of the night. >> So the object affected it. >> So it was so hot. So it uh corroborates the story of the two carpenters. >> So it's evidence and the car couldn't have made this this tungsten hot. You think it was definitely there? >> It was in front of the car. It was And it's impossible really. Wow. It must have been quite the heat to do that. >> That's amazing. >> So that's interesting. >> That's f Can I Can I hold it? >> Absolutely. >> It does feel oddly, you know, very very smooth, but I'm sure that is also a natural element of of tungsten. >> It is. It is. And you have another object beside you that I brought with me. >> Yeah. This is actually from outer space. This is not earthly. Uh but it's it is prosaic. This is What is this? This is a piece of an asteroid. >> Mhm. >> That crashed in Arizona >> 50,000 years ago. >> Okay. >> You can still see the crater. It's a big museum at the rim of the crater. It's a >> 1 kilometer. So, it's a huge crater. You can see it from space. >> It's very very heavy. It's 99% iron and a little nickel and some other elements. >> Wow. >> So, you can tell if something like this and from the beginning it was huge. Of course, like a London bus or something like that. >> If that had hit a city, of course, there were no cities 50,000 years ago, but today city would be gone, >> vanished. >> How much of Can I feel it? How much of UFO crashes do you think are This is amazing. It's so heavy. How much of UFO crashes do you feel are physical events? Nuts and bolts. material gets left behind. You can have a crash retrieval team going looking for it and finding a thing and trying to reverse engineer it. >> Do you think a high percentage of them are? >> I mean, you know, we looked for one in Norway. >> Yeah, we did. >> Witnesses, I mean, it landed and it sank. >> Yes. >> And in 1946, as we talked about the ghost rockets, uh, the military were looking for them in several different lakes around Sweden. All they found were indentations at the bottom. >> Not a single debris, not anything, not anything like that or like the V piece. >> So it is really strange. I know that some of those UFOs as we're talking about could just vanish without the trace. >> Do you know of any because this is an interesting question. I think the audience often wonders. You know, in the US there are all these rumors of reverse engineering and crash retrievalss of UFOs. You know, Roswell is like the, you know, kind of archetypal example of 1947 July. >> Um, but the crashes often seem to occur around nuclear sites possibly because there is this sort of nuclear connection. Do you know of any crash retrievals or even reported crash retrievals where vigilante citizen who's interested in UFOs? >> Okay. Yeah. Citizens really >> finds actual material themselves. >> Uh not here in Scandinavia. And the thing is I don't really understand why should those objects crash that often. >> They're traveling presumably through space. and they are crashing not all the time but quite often. Uh I mean the UFO enigma to me is much more complex and I'm not sure really that we are dealing with like those physical objects all the time. We are from time to time. I talked to Swedish uh radar observers that have told me about objects that traveling huge speeds over Sweden >> and of course they are physical but some are not. >> Yes. >> So where in between could we could we distinguish this is a one of a UFO hardware this is something else I'm not sure. >> Do you believe there are government crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs? Not here in Sweden that I'm sure about, but in 1946 we had >> Yeah. >> Uh they were out the government sent the military out to several different lakes and try to find those uh crashed objects. >> You showed us photos. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But do you think in the US there's an official program around these things or >> I'm not sure. I mean I I I have my expertise here in Sweden really. Um, of course the military should be interested to find uh hardware if there is any kind of strange object. >> Yeah, you'd have you'd have to dedicate resources to even try. >> Yeah, absolutely. It could be Chinese, could be Russia, it could be something completely different, but uh I think your authorities would be interested. >> You know, people know of Hesselon in Norway as a UFO hotspot. What in your mind are maybe the top five UFO hotspots in Europe? >> I mean, HTON is interesting from many aspects. First, uh, in the 1980s, early 1980s, we and you from Norway had this huge expedition there and we could take pictures of them. We can also see them on radar once. But the thing is nowadays in Holland when you see something on scientific instrument the light the thing is coming up from the ground going upwards never the other way. We have in Sweden Dalana which is in the middle of Sweden where we have had several waves of UFO observations. We have a place on on the island of Gotland called Matibu where people go to a certain stretch of a of a road watching for lights coming wandering on this road. But we also know we have been there. We have traveled around and drove our own cars and they shouted, "Oh, that is that is the object." But it was our car. So there's really no place you can go here in Scandinavia to be sure to see something except Testolan if you stay long enough. [laughter] >> So that's really the UFO hot spot. >> Yeah. Yeah, it is. And it's been that for many years. And the thing is about Holland, even though most of the things you see are lights in the sky, >> if you talk to the people there, they can tell you ordinary UFO stories as well >> with crafts and sometimes even beings. Yeah, we were there and it was not >> it was very easy to tell that an [snorts] extremely high percentage of people that lived there had experienced things like >> upwards of 80 85 90% of people and that was all of the report and everybody had family members and they had experienced things. It was ubiquitous pretty much. >> Yeah. Several people in Norway, they have experience experienced stuff like that, seeing things, but they don't dare to tell it because they are afraid to being uh chastised. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I know when when you speak to uh other people, have you seen anything unnatural? >> Yes. Yes. But I Oh, I don't want to talk about it. You could almost flip the percentages in any other place where if you were to pull people Yeah. >> they would say, you know, maybe 10 15% would be open about, you know, it would be it's the opposite in Helin. You're the you're the pariah if you haven't, you know, seen a UFO or something. >> I mean, we knocked doors and talked to 1,600 Swedes >> and 10% of them had seen something. >> That's remarkable. >> It was only one of them who didn't want to talk with us. The other ones were very open. >> Okay. And uh the interesting thing is that we have 22,000 case files from Sweden here at AFU. >> Yeah. >> And presumably 1 million Swedes, 10% of around 11 million. >> Wow. >> I've seen something. >> Wow. >> And last last night I talked with a lady who wrote me a letter and she uh for the first time told anyone outside her family about something happened in 1971. in October 1971 and she was uh bicycling in a small city in the middle of Sweden. >> It was daylight and the train was coming and this [clears throat] is so strange. You know, this is typically strange for me. >> Back in the day, I used to chug coffee like I was prepping for a quantum jump. 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That's right, up to 43% off with code Jesse. That's J E S E at Mudwater. mud wtr.com. After your purchase, they'll ask you how you found them. Please show your support and let them know we sent you. >> On this uh train, there was a carriage with scrap metal >> pile. She saw two men on that looking for something. >> They have some like backpacks, but it was not backpacks. It was they had like suits like the the Superman. >> Yeah. But uh one color only silver color with something protruding out of their backs like that. >> And she watched them and suddenly they were standing on the other edge of this carriage looking at her >> and they were holding their hands on on the belt with a small box and they had very tight helmets, small small heads and some gloves. And she was so frightened. She was 8 m from them. Just very very close. And suddenly I mean she went away and they went away and carried on with whatever they were doing. And it was nearly impossible to walk that distance on this carriage because it was so much scrap metal. So they just traveled over the metal in a way and were standing there. and she turned around and she could see they were still working looking for something on this. >> Wow. >> Interesting. Super strange. Did she speculate as to who they were, where they were from at all or >> I mean she started to read about UFOs and try and nowadays she's over 70 years of age and she look on YouTube and whatever. But uh she she asked me what I thought and I said to her, "This is for me a typical encounter with strange beings because it's not typical." >> You're right. >> So they are so different. They're so diverse. >> So it's it's typical for things to be unable to categorize them. For me, if you really take a look at >> all of the spectrum, you will find that >> that's what Jacqu Valet, you know, John Ke, a lot of these UFO researchers, once you get past a certain point, you get into this idea that uh that the phenomena conceals itself with this absurdity element that is injected into every experience. >> Absurdity is the word, you know, that's a key word. It's really absurd. And so it's so absurd that it pre-stigmatizes itself. Like the story you just told me of men in a garbage pile seemingly doing the most low tech thing wearing the most high tech suits teleporting from can to can or whatever. Sounds insane. >> Yeah. >> But I'm sure that happened, you know. Uh and so that seems to be this very common common theme, this trickster element. Do you think that that's >> at play here? this this idea that um the phenomena almost wants to cover itself. >> In a way, in a way I agree with you because there are so many high strangessless cases. So the other ones you say, "Oh, this is the typical Wikis Reber alien. >> They're not very common here in Sweden." uh you you can get them but if you really dig into all this the pile of observations you are finding so many other story >> when you were talking about the the sighting where the woman saw the being with the backpack thing protruding yeah and the suits >> it reminded me of uh of a friend of a friend's account so my my best friend's sister's best friend >> she was in Mexico in Bala California I think and just like sunset taking photos of she was drinking like a Corona beer. She's taking a photo of it with the sunset behind and maybe half an hour later as she goes through the as she goes through the photo she sees something very very similar to what this woman this woman >> she drew it. So, she was very scared to show the photo, but she drew she drew it for me and then we were going to get on the phone so that so that she can show me the photo just like via Zoom and uh I think she had cold feet and I can't tell if if it's true that the photo disappeared from her phone, but she that's what she says. >> Yeah. >> And uh she just says like she can't find it anymore, >> but it was in one of the photos and again she was looking at what she was taking a photo of. She didn't see it with her own eyes, but it appeared on the photo. >> I mean, that is so interesting because some of those aliens are carrying equipment. >> Yeah. >> Some are not. >> Yeah. And it's literally like what you were describing just >> Yeah. Yeah. It is. >> That's amazing. >> That's so crazy with the little backpack and the jumpsuit. >> Say it was like a some sort of a metal detector thing and they're on the beach in in Mexico. It's like what? >> That's so weird. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. No, it's almost like a Gonzo movie or something. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's absurd. That's absurd. >> Show time. >> Yeah. >> But speaking of photos that were taken where the person didn't even witness what ended up being seen in the photo. They accidentally took a photo of a, in this case, an amazing UFO. >> This is Claus's new book, Files of the Unexplained. And do you want to tell us a little bit about this photo? I mean, >> yeah, it's taken by Hannah McRoberts. We should see if we can find it in here so we could have a bigger picture of it. I don't remember which page there it was. >> Yep. I mean, look at that. >> So, uh, this is Vancouver Island >> and you've met her, right? >> I talked with her on telephone. >> So, what's the story behind this photo? >> Well, she was out driving together with her husband and she stopped. This mountain is quite uh well known. This was October the 8th, 1981. and she thought that the cloud seemed a little nice over the top of the mountain. So, she took this picture and coming home later on uh and got the because it's an old film. This is not a detail film, it's an old camera, she found that there was something up in the air and it really looks like a proper flying saucer with a dome. >> Do you think this photo is real? >> I think it's real. Uh I'm not sure how it uh ended up there. But I talked with her a couple of times and uh I mean she didn't fake it anyway. I think she is really doing this because she's curious about it. She don't understand. >> She seems very earnest to you and not no grifting or lying vibes. >> Absolutely not. Uh she helped us with the picture and no problem with that. I mean it's like this very famous picture you know this with Elizabeth this little girl sitting there with nice dress >> and her father out in this uh mo there were only them his wife little girl took the picture and when he got it back from the photographer the business you could see this creature standing behind Elizabeth. So the guy who developed this said, "Wow, I'm sorry, but this nice picture of Elizabeth is ruined. Somebody stand behind her." It's called the astronaut because it looks like an astronaut and nobody knows how it ended up there out on this more only them only three of them free horizon. >> Wow. What are the most because if you look at the free Edgar Mitchell, you know, database in in the US of abductees or experiencers over 50% uh experience humanoid creatures. >> Uh so so creatures that you know seem to be bipedal walking upright uh almost very similar to humans in many ways. >> Is that similar to what you experience in Scandinavia? I mean we got stories from people that have seen like box like entities floating. So you get it all. If you are into this for a couple of decades >> wow >> you will find that this is more complex. It's not only humanoids. >> So interesting. So yeah alien is such a simplistic. It's such an oversimplification. >> I think so. >> The idea it's like oh we're not alone. and they're out in space and they've come here. >> It makes us understand it and we want to understand strange things. >> Yes. Well, it's true. I mean, when you look at, you know, it's funny. Everybody references in the US >> uh the 2017 article from Leslie Kaine which outed, you know, OAP or whatever the the program at Skinwalker Ranch from 2007 to 2012. And before that, you had Bigalow studying at Skinwalker Ranch. >> And everybody talks about that like, oh, that's the official alien investigation program. And if you look at what they were doing at Skinwalker Ranch, it's like they're picking up weird electromagnetic signals. >> There are poltergeists. There's like a werewolf. And that's how some of the anti-UFO people try to show. They think it's like all crazy or whatever. >> But it's actually just a way less simple phenomena than, you know, you can you can't memeify it into this simple, you know, it's just a gray alien and they're from Zeta Reticuli. they're going to appear at some point in the future. It's this game of whack-a-ole and it's deeply embedded with human consciousness as well. >> Good summary. I think I mean you must really look very broad >> at this and that's why I have you here. It's not only only UFO library. >> It's about the unknown. >> So how do you make cuz you have done this herculean effort where you have 16 of the room that we're in which is filled to the brim with documents. How do you make progress in a field where what we just described, it's almost like Decart's demon where your whole perceptive apparatus, everything you see is at the discretion of possibly some of these entities showing up in random places. And it's like how do you progress in a field where it's like we're chimps and we're trying to study humans, you know, how do you how do you progress? >> It is very difficult to do that. >> Yeah. So most eupfologist are looking at the particular small part of the subject >> and if you do like this you will never get ready with what you're doing >> right >> because it's so very much more complex than you thought from the beginning. So most euphologists are saying okay this is not interesting I'm looking at that. >> Yes. And I think that's not the way forward really. >> But even beyond that, like I look at like uh you know, Jacques Valet who we were talking about earlier, >> one of the best theorists on the topic, you know, French godfather of a lot of modern research. Amazing guy and >> you know on par with you as far as all your encyclopedic knowledge. He, you know, like if you you read some of his early books like Invisible College or something from 1975, >> are we that much farther as far as the theory as to what's happening >> than he was then? >> No, I don't think so. >> I don't think so either. >> That's sad really. >> It is. >> Uh and it's it's really impossible to get further because it's so huge. >> Yes. >> And there is no really good uh scientific approach to this. >> Yes. Yet we have certain scientists that are interested in this, but they're looking at their small bits and pieces as well. >> Would one new scientific model involve um you know science is supposed to be you were supposed to be this impartial observer >> and then you have the observed and there's you know clear distinct separation between those two >> but maybe in this new model your own consciousness or orientation towards the subject somehow matters. >> Absolutely. I met with um a friend of mine who is a doctor and he's also very much into the human consciousness research. >> He's done research on twins and see what happen if a twin is hurt and if the other is affected >> and he found that yes there are clear indications that twins are interacting without knowing that. >> Wow. And he really says to me that the human consciousness is a big part even of the UFO phenomena. >> It has to be >> and I think so as well. >> Yes. >> Are you familiar with studies in parasychology and that sort of thing >> because if there is some sort of mind matter interaction then that obviously has to affect you know what what we see. >> Yeah. We know so little about what's inside our heads. >> Yes. >> Gray mass but that's not the answer. Do you think, you know, when you speak to Jacqu Valet, he says, you know, I would be very disappointed to find that uh these were just beings from another planet. >> From my own point of view, I'm going to be very disappointed if UFOs turn out to be nothing more than visitors from another planet because I think they could be something much more interesting. >> It doesn't have to do as much with space as it might have to do with space-time itself or time. seems like time travel is this big theme in a lot of his writings and you know when he speaks and stuff is that something you've thought about at all or consider >> absolutely I don't think the answer to the UFO question is one >> I think there are many different answers on different parts of this huge complex so it's very hard for say a scientist to approach this with an astronomer >> they will only look at this very small There need to be a a group of of scientists and eupfologists or whatever doing this together. >> Time travel [music] sections. >> Time travel. There's a time travel section. >> No. What? Time and time travel. What? Time loops in [music] space twists. Let's >> see if I can find a Wendle steel and stuff. had or >> I have no not a clue. Oh, now I will crush but >> crush you can spare him. [laughter] >> This is the NASA scientist. [music] >> Oh wow, >> dude. >> So you can see here if you read the labels here >> corless. >> Yeah, William Corless. He wrote this series of books called source book project. >> Ah >> only about enigmas. >> So >> so here you can see like psychology his working papers. Then he passed away and uh I I contacted his widow and it took me a couple of years. >> Was he at all like was there any part of his official work at NASA that over overlapped with UFOs? It was just a hobby. >> Yeah, that's a hobby. >> This is what they look like. >> Biological anomalies, mammals. Oh my god, this guy's a genius. >> Yeah. >> Who is this guy? >> He was a genius. >> This is amazing. >> We corresponded for many years. Then he passed. >> Wow. And then I I wrote to his uh state >> got in contact with his his son >> and his wife was 90 plus. >> Uhhuh. >> And she started to compile everything in order for us. >> Wow. >> And we sent two pallets from the US. >> Oh, she's amazing. >> Yeah. And this behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world, Borderland Science Research Association, >> B S A. >> What? That's the most interesting UFO organization cuz they knew, you know, they knew about crashes sometimes before they would happen. Like there's something very interesting about them. They were new more than intelligence ina certain cases in the ' 40s. >> Yeah. >> About stuff. >> They were first first. >> So what what's their deal? Cuz they were funded by that guy, the mysterious guy. What's his name? He was like an occultist and like a magician and >> Yeah. So, oh, it's so And then they had they had all the early stuff around UFOs before intelligence agencies did. >> I went to Eureka, California. >> I met with this guy in his garage >> and we packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden. >> Wow. And you have Tesla and what is this? Brown and Buridge. >> It's probably correspondents. >> Who's Brown? >> Maybe Thompson Brown. I'm not sure. You can take a look. I don't I don't know. The immortal cell. >> Ron Brown. >> Ron Brown. Oh, it's Oh, Towns in Brown. >> Yeah, >> you can take a look and see what this is. >> It happened to me in the woods. I was hiking solo. New year, no phone, no gear. I was just trying to find myself. That's when I saw it. Something glowing, silent, descending through the trees. A UFO. And stepping out from it wasn't an alien or an android. It was me, but better. Same face, same great hair, but something was different. This guy had perfect posture. He was wearing the perfect jean. And they start at just $79. Six fits. Sizes for every thigh on this timeline and beyond. Now 2026 me wears the perfect jeans. They don't crush my thighs or my dreams. They're soft but dangerous. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off their first order plus free shipping at the perfect gene.nyc or just Google the perfect gene and use code jesse15 for 15% off. That's 15% off for new customers at the perfectgene.nyc with promo code jessi15. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you your khakis and get the perfect gene. TT Brown electrokinetic generator. Here, look. That's amazing. Patent office for the electrokinetic generator. Well, the Borderland Society, they had connections with Brown. They had some apparatus still left in the garage that I couldn't bring, >> but I'm not sure if they functioning, >> but I think they are still left in Eureka. >> Really? What apparatus? >> Yeah, I don't really know. It's like big boxes with switches. >> Really? What? >> Yeah, >> I want to check that out. I'm more interested in him than anyone else. >> Yeah, I understand. I I read a book about him just a couple of months ago. >> The man who mastered gravity. >> Yeah. >> What did you think? >> I think it was fascinating. It's fascinating, right? >> Yeah. >> Isn't he the most interesting man alive? >> So many mysteries around him. >> So many mysteries around him. >> He was on to something. I think so. >> I think so. >> Yeah. >> I think there's something very interesting about him. >> Towns and brown. >> Towns and brown. >> Towns and brown. >> Towns and brown. >> There's a guy named Towns and Brown. >> Okay. Okay. Towns and brown. I want to look that up. The holy grail of physics involves the unification of the four fundamental forces which includes finding a missing link between electromagnetism and gravity. Einstein actually spent the latter half of his career trying to solve for this mathematically. It is my belief that this spooky inventor may have experimentally discovered this long-saw link. They're all going against the wind. >> Which UFO case impacted you the most and changed your life the most? Uh I grew up with the Bonnie and Betty Hill case of course and that was hugely important to me and when I met Betty many years ago in the early middle of the 80s I got a quite new view on her. So it's important to meet with the witnesses. >> What was your new view on her when you met with her? Yeah. Well, I was uh most euphologists and if you read the books, it says that Betty Hill was not interested in UFOs at all before the encount encounter Dian had. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But she was >> really >> and not but not not only that she told me that she was sitting on the porch together with her her I think it was sister whatever it was relative and something came crossing the sky and crashed and they went out on in the field and brought back debris what >> from this crashed object >> few years ago before this happened this was in the 50s >> I was over here in name visiting with the family and it was a warm night and we're sitting outdoors on the porch when we saw what we thought at that time was a plane >> very slowly going across the sky and while we're watching it exploded midair and burned now we said you know we've seen a plane blow up >> we turn on the radio and turned on the TV. Nothing. >> Well, up to my by my mother's, my nephew had seen this burning debris come down from the sky >> and he watched it and when it cooled off, he got some of that. And my sister gave some pieces to me and said, "No, we don't know what it is. Maybe uh I had some friends at the university." M >> maybe you could get someone to analyze it. So I had all these pieces and I had them in the closet there on the top shelf and you know I didn't find anybody to analyze them. >> So just before about 4 days before we left to go on the trip Barney said what's that stuff above the top shelf? Why don't just throw it away? We could use the shelf. Well, I was having some fill put in the backyard. So, I took the pieces and I threw them in the backyard. And when they dumped the sand, they covered them. >> And about 3 days later, we go on the trip. >> Really? Betty Hill. >> Yeah. And she brought it >> before her encounter. >> Yeah. Yeah. Everything is still out there in the garden if you >> Oh, so we got to go to her house. You must dig there. >> I will. >> Yeah. It's not her house anymore. So, >> but it's in in New Hampshire. >> It's in Portsmouth. >> In Portsouth. New Hampshire. No way. >> So, that story you can listen to at TF's website. I have this conversation with her. It's in in in writing and you can hear her voice telling this as well. But the bottom line is she was very much into UFOs. >> That's fascinating. We got to go dig. >> And not a single you follow this really cares about this. They don't want to know this. >> Her granddaughter is a UFC fighter. Yeah. And I think she's friends with Joe Rogan and has gone on the show. So maybe >> contact her. >> Say, "Hey, who are the residents of the current house? This is under We go dig and find this thing." You're wearing this epic Betty and Barney Hill. >> Oh jeez. >> Oh jeez. First abductees. 1961. >> No, I know his granddaughter. >> Yeah. She Angela Hill, right? She's UFC fighter. >> Yeah. >> So cool. >> Crazy. >> What does she say? She did my podcast and didn't tell me until after the podcast was over. >> Joey's grandfather was Barney Hill. I was like, "No, [laughter] that's mad. >> That's amazing. >> You should do that." She was a lovely lady, I should say, >> and she told a very interesting story. And also, when she drove the object to me, uh, it looks like a box with sharp edges and big windows and a brim like a like a hat. >> Wow. And you believed her? Did you feel like she was being honest with you? >> Yeah, she was absolutely honest with me. And uh uh as I said, she was a very nice lady. She treated us with a sponge cake and we were there all the day and talk with her. >> So, but it complicated the story. >> Yeah. Just for the audience, the core story is in 1961, Betty and Barney Hill, they were an interracial couple and they were ACLU activists actually and they were on a road trip from I think it was like Niagara Falls or they were in Canada and they were coming back down to New Hampshire >> and on the way uh they see this craft and it's flying around and I believe there's audio and we'll play the audio for the audience but um like Barney starts to like go after the saucer like Almost like it's like he's locked into it and it's like she's afraid and wants to keep going >> and then he's very afraid after that. So >> he don't want to pursue it. >> I'll take my head. Pull the bodac away. God give me strength. >> All right. >> Pull him down. [laughter] Run. PULL THESE DOWN AND LET GOD. Give me I got to get away. So anyways, they meet these beings. They say they're from Zeta Reticuli. Uh they have these uniforms on these little gray beings. They get taken up on the craft reluctantly. I I believe Barney then admits that he like um samples were taken like gametes were taken, sperm cells from him. >> So it almost felt like some sort of like experiment being done on them. >> They checked on his teeth and there were false teeth because he had false teeth. >> Ah interesting. They came running into Betty and asking, "Oh, what what's it that >> interesting?" >> That's the interesting thing about those aliens. They don't seem to know anything about anything. [laughter] >> I mean, you should think that they should know, >> right? >> Yeah. >> But they're tr in in that account, it almost sounds like they're truly trying to figure out what's going on. It's not like it's like this uh routine thing. But they also do this pregnancy test on on Betty with a needle >> and that was old here at that point really. I mean >> it's not very high tech. >> Nobody does that anymore. So why do alien from sitically use a method that is ancient? >> What do you think? >> I think this is not visitors in that way and this was only told during hypnosis. >> Yes. later. >> They never really uh remembered it in the waking. >> So what do you think they had an encounter with? >> That's very hard to tell. But I think that that just all those stories are much more complicated. Much more complicated. She was a firm believer in aliens visiting Earth, >> right? >> And she told Barney about her interest in that and he didn't like that at all. But it's almost like that interest might have shaded their perception of what happened to them when in fact what happened to them was much more complicated. I mean if the beings said we're from Zeta Reticuli that does point >> Well they didn't say that because that was the the star map. That's >> she drew a star map. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And that star map is of course you can do that with lots of stars, right? >> So it's not >> but they said we're from another star system. Yeah. She asked about this map on the wall and they told her that this was u commercial lines where they were traveling to make uh >> make business. >> Yeah. >> Really? >> I believe um have you read American Cosmic by Diana Pulka or are you familiar with it? Yeah. So she talks about um the CBS show outer limits playing uh >> at that time really >> playing 11 days premiering 11 days before this encounter that Betty and Barney had >> show and the crashed metal debris in her cupboard >> that had happened before >> so many things before. So we cannot really be sure exactly how they interpreted things during hypnosis. >> Right. Well, Pulka also says that the aliens in Outer Limits have eyes that wrap around their heads and that's what they see as well. So, it's almost as if their perception is somewhat shaded by Yeah. maybe their preconceived notions and knowledge. >> Yeah. >> So interesting. >> Yeah. You know, also another weird fact about that case is CD Jackson, Charles Douglas Jackson, who ran psychological warfare and was very involved in MK Ultra and then went on to I believe give the Suprater film which is the you know John >> film of JFK getting shot with the missing frames. He gives that to Time magazine because he's very involved in sort of a >> perception management for the public at the time. He's head of the psychological strategy board um with Gordon Gray and a few other guys at the time. He goes and visits Betty and Barney Hill a few weeks after their abduction. >> Okay. >> So interesting. It's like, so it was already like >> you're talking about the elite of the elite of American warfare operations, you know, a guy who's very high up in government going to visit these two abductees. So strange in 1961. >> Yeah. Wow. >> I don't know. >> It's not easy, you know. >> It's not easy, but I think we have to find that artifact. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Have you been digging for any other artifacts? Are there any other objects? >> Yeah, we have. Here in Sweden, we have been up in the north. Uh there was a guy who said that he was a a young boy. >> He met these craft and aliens outside his house >> and he got this thing from them, some sort of metallic tablet. >> Uhhuh. >> And he uh he hid it. He hid it on the ground and we went there together with him trying to find it. >> Wow. >> But we couldn't find it. >> Really? >> No. >> Is there anything? Have you ever found any objects that you think are >> No, we haven't. the only one that I showed you. I mean, things like that, but not any bonafide smoking gun thing like that. >> Do you believe that humans have in their possession on the civilian side, objects that might be from these beings, whatever entities we're interacting with, because as you know, Jacqu Valle publishes his mailing address online. Yeah. >> People will mail him pieces. And recently Gary Nolan actually just went on Joe Rogan Experience and you know one of the pieces came from Ubatuba Brazil where this explosion occurred on the beach and this fisherman >> magnesium >> exactly magnesium with extremely >> anomalous isotope ratios. >> It also read that there were such things at that time. >> Well I think it would have been possible to have created but you would have needed a centrifuge. Yeah. And why the hell would somebody with a centrifuge, >> you know, give a piece of metal to somebody in Brazil on the beach to mail to Jacqu? It just feels a little crazy. But >> And why do you build a spaceship with magnesium? It doesn't really It's not very good to travel in. >> Oh, I'll tell you why you'd be in a spaceship with magnesium. >> Okay? >> Cuz magnesium bismouth is a high K dialectric. >> So it stores a lot of electromagnetic charge and it discharges it very quickly. Oh, >> and so if you look at like um you know my belief is the anti-gravity or gravity manipulation effect is the biffield brown effect named after towns and brown >> and if you put a high gate K dialectric insulator in between two capacitors one negative and one positive electrode >> the thrust increases dramatically the higher the K the dialectric. So all of his papers include uh it's two things. It's um berium aluminum barerium and magnesium bismouth >> and so and and and bismouth uh specifically is this big this big really important part but I don't know maybe magnesium itself has some some issues with it. >> Yeah magnesium itself is not good but if this alloy maybe something different. Well, it seems like the what he found had uh it was like micron layers thinner than a human hair. >> Bismouth layers less than a human hair, magnesium samples about 10 times the size of a human hair. >> And so it's extremely thinly aligned. And I think you get these topological insulators like that where when you excite them, you seem to have electron coherence occur at scale and you get these very sort of anomalous effects. And you even have aerospace looking into some of these these things. So >> why do they explode over Yubatuba? >> So that the speculation on Gary Nolan's part is that that was the exhaust that was that it's almost like the the byproduct of the craft. And who knows, you know, but >> so the exhaust should spit out metallic debris. >> Yeah. I don't know. Is it something that they're using and they need that ratio to accomplish something or is it a byproduct of an of an effect that where they take the natural things and then they're doing something And this ends up being the outcome. And then when they're done with it, they go and they throw it out. >> Do you hope to find a material? Do you think you can or >> uh I hope of course, but I'm not sure I can. >> Yeah. >> But if there is a report, we will of course go there and try to find it. We are mostly focused on finding uh recent ghost rocket crashes. M >> I mean in 1980 there was a landing and an object that um sank in a lake up in the very north of Sweden called Damaya >> and we have been there and we have radar returns that something is in the mud. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Amazing. >> Yeah. So >> when are you going to go look? >> We will be there again next year. >> That's exciting. >> So hopefully we can find something. Two very good witnesses. >> Wow. in the middle of the day. Uh and uh they could see this object coming below 100 m. >> Yeah. >> Flying over them. They follow it over the lake and it turns around 180. >> Yeah. >> Towards them, lands with a splash and sinking and bubbles are coming up and then it's gone. And then they take out the camera from the rug sack and take a picture. Of course, it's gone. But uh they take a picture 2 minutes after the object is gone. They go back to uh Stockholm. >> Mhm. >> And contacts the military. And the military's UFO expert at that time, Studio Vicage, he really looks into this, tried to find an explanation, but uh they couldn't do that. And they sent a helicopter over the lake. And I met one of the pilots and they told me this is a natural park national park. You're not allowed to land there. But suddenly one of the passengers felt sick. >> Yeah. >> So their lands ah uh and they can see dead fish >> on the on the near the shore. So they take the fish with them and think wow this is atomic power some radioactivity I killed the fish. But it was it was only a parasite. >> Ah, >> and we found the same dead fish when we came there many many years later. >> So just a parasite. >> Yeah. But the object is there. It's 4 m of mud. >> And our expert who went with us said if you see something it will be not at the bottom of the lake. >> Yeah. >> But in between 2 mters and exactly there we got this return from an object that is still resting there. Really? >> We don't know what it is. But uh >> but there is some object. Do you know the do you know the shape of the object? >> No, we only saw it in two dimensions. So next trip we will look in three dimensions. >> Wow. >> We are not allowed to bring anything with us from this national park because it's a natural park. >> Yeah. >> So if we find something, we cannot bring it up. >> Well, if you need any extra media media coverage or help in any way, I would love to come. [laughter] >> I call you. >> That sounds amazing. It is amazing and this is a very good observation and we have several cases like that that objects have like in Norway flying very very low >> turning navigating landing sinking >> interesting and it's always seems to be in water >> always water and the thing is which I didn't really think about until recently that all those observations around water of course people are living there it's summer they are out is good observation. I mean they could see over the lake but not a single one has seen any object flying over the lake and not landing. >> Every single observation ends with a crash or a landing, not a flyby. >> It's so interesting. Why do you think that is? >> I mean they want to land. They want to crash. They want to pinpoint the lake. That's for sure. And I'm not sure why they they do this. Do you think it's fuel? >> Uh, I mean they're running out of fuel. >> No. Do you think water is their fuel? >> Oh, you mean that? >> Because you know the bonds between hydrogen and oxygen H2O uh are impossible to break from a human perspective. But if you were able to amount the energy necessary to break them, then they would be extremely energetic reaction that could, you know, power a craft. I think it's like driving your car into a gas station full of power and trying to get some petrol. [laughter] >> Yeah, fair enough. >> I mean, they should land and be there for a while and then fly away, >> right? >> But they're either crashing straight down. >> Yeah. >> Or landing quite hard. >> Yeah. But it might be hard from our perspective and it might be >> we can always >> refueling. I I just Who knows? You know, >> it's interesting. I mean they do water just seems like this very important element you know the idea that they're transmedium >> and it is important it is not a single object has crashed on land in Sweden or Norway >> that's amazing yeah the fact that they literally only the ghost rocket phenomena but you're saying cuz we talked about this the other week >> you're saying that it was it's not just the ghost rocket phenomena that only hits the water you're saying all UFOs >> have only hit landed in the water in in Sweden generally >> Sweden, Scandinavia. >> In Scandinavia. >> Yeah. >> So post 4647 all UFOs. >> That's amazing. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah, it is. Wow. >> That's so interesting. >> And it's all nearly always 11:00 July, clear weather, hot weather. >> That's what you said last time. It's so wild. >> So strange. >> Yeah. Well, I mean there's definitely some selection bias based on or observer bias because that's when people are on their lakeouses. yet to see some flybys. >> Yeah, it's weird. >> I don't They only see those landings and crashes. >> That's so strange. >> But we have only a small sample. I mean, maybe 30. >> Still, that's a >> Yeah, >> the fact that you I mean, that's enough to >> That's that's that's a really important trend. >> Um, you were just given access to incredibly sensitive DoD archives here in Sweden. >> Yeah. >> What did you see? I've been looking for the files from a very important military, customs, police operation in the early 1970s. They are still to be released in 2040, but I just the other day got the clearance to to to get them cleared. >> And did you see them? >> Yeah, I looked through them, but I would get a copy of them in a week or two. >> Well, what did you what did you see? The interesting thing is that I found uh one observation that I knew the observer, this helicopter pilot, he was on standby looking for the trespassers that were flying in from Norway to Sweden in nighttime. Very strange object. Sometimes uh aircraft with no signatures, no lamps, nothing. But this night he got an order to lift and go up to with his helicopter trying to intercept an object coming from Norway and he and his co-pilot which I will talk to next week. He uh was flying 20 m over the treetops and it was moonshine, it was uh um snow. So it was very very good seeing and suddenly this object coming flying under the helicopter over the treetops and this small passage of 20 m and straight up in front of them [clears throat] an elongated rocketlike thing with no wings, no lights, nothing and it just flies away. And it it told me that I did like this. I lifted my feet because it was so near our helicopter. >> Wow. Oh, >> and now when I got those documents, I found this report. Um, I could see the radar plot where they are intersecting their paths and also the the note from the military. >> So, it's picked up by radar. >> Yeah. >> Wa. >> Yeah. >> And you see the radar plot where the object is intersecting with this guy's helicopter. >> Yeah. >> That's amazing. >> Yeah. And they land after this. They're landing. >> What? and the security the military security uh personnel uh comes and and u debrief them and he tells a story and they went went away. >> What was the shape of the object? >> It was an elongated rocket like thing with no wings. >> So similar to the ghost rockets >> typical ghost rocket. >> Typical ghost rocket. What year was this? >> Uh 1975 November the 7th. >> How fast was it moving the object? It was much faster than the helicopter, but they had plenty of time to see it because of the moon and the snow on the ground. >> That's amazing because in the US you have, you know, the kind of one of the holy grail events is the tic-tac incident at Nimmits in 2004 >> and you don't have radar data for that. You have forwardlooking infrared which is kind of controversial and they say that the radar data ended up getting classified. In this case, you have an eyewitness and you were able to see corroboration from the DoD archives. >> Yeah. >> That this object intersected this helicopter >> at this time. That's amazing. >> And I will talk to his co-pilot in a in a couple of days and get his view as well. So, we had two witnesses documentation and uh what I'm looking for now is of course the security personnel's notes. >> Wow. Uh I have no access to them and I think I will not have any access to them. >> Well, how would you get that? >> I I will try to get it but um >> how would you get the security personnel? >> Uh I know people that works within the war archives. >> Okay. >> And uh they can help me to say if it's there >> to see if like he was actually debriefed when he came down and stuff. >> I'm sure he was because all operation was built on that that you were debriefing people after >> all those events there. And did you and you've spoken to this witness firsthand. >> Yeah, firsthand. And I talked to this helicopter pilot uh just a couple of days ago. >> Yeah. >> As soon as I found find those uh documentations, >> Yeah. >> I called him and said, "Okay, now I know which date it was and I can see >> that they made this note that an object passed very close to the helicopter >> and this is being declassified for everybody. At what point will this be released to the public? Yeah, I mean it will be uh >> when I'm getting it, it will be. >> And so what when when will that be? When this will be released? >> In a couple of weeks, I think. Uh it all depends on how much they have to do uh scanning. >> Is is the pilot in Stockholm? >> No. >> Where is the pilot? >> He's far away from here, so to say. >> In Sweden, though. >> He's a really nearer Norway than Stockholm. In Sweden. Yeah. Damn. >> The other the other pilot is in Australia. >> Okay. Wow. Amazing. Well, that that seems like an unprecedentedly important case. >> It is. It is a good case and u I hope that I can really find all the pieces here. >> Do you have any other cases like that where you have radar corroboration for uh an eyewitness sighting? Because that seems like very important. >> Yeah, we do have I've seen with my own eyes military radar UFO. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> You've seen with your own eyes. Military. And when was that and what's the context? >> It was I think in 2005. It's what we call the first mobile picture of UFO in Sweden. It was two guys up in this uh cottage in the very north of Sweden. They were sitting playing card and they hear a strange noise. So they they went out and they saw this very illuminated object coming towards them and it's uh moving around this cottage. So one of them get this mobile phone and take a picture and you can see it's a very bright object with that flashes around but that's probably a lens flare but it's a very bright object and it flies around the cottage and then it vanishes. So I go to the uh the military radar unit which is very this is very secret. You cannot just go there but I know people and I can see the radar returns from this event. You can see the object coming going around. >> So yeah that's a case you can cooperate. >> That's absolutely incredible. Have you seen so you don't have UFO material? Have you seen the remnants of a UFO? Just like you showed me that little piece of rock where it's interacted with a local physical environment in some way. >> Okay. >> Because you told me last time about um lily pads being affected by ghost rockets. And so you're showing that it's interacting with the physical environment. Radar is obviously >> reflecting radio waves. And so that's like it's a really important, you know, >> and I interviewed six uh people at the radar station in the very north of Sweden. >> Oh, really? >> I found them one by one. They were there in the winter of 1973, 1974. Uh at that point, they had left this uh mountain, you know, they're deep inside the mountain. They are up on the surface at the lunch and they are looking out around and suddenly they see over the treetops this cigar shaped object moving like like this. Uh so they are running down into the radar equipments and look and they can see the object on their radar screens and it's doing 90° angles like this. Wow. And suddenly it flies away over Norway and straight up. And uh every one of those six I found them during several years are telling the same story. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> All six. >> Yeah. >> That's amazing. Do you have them all on camera and stuff or >> No, I have them on tape only. But uh >> Well, that's good. The problem is that they told me that their commander in the mountain >> they were asked by him to take pictures of the radar screen. So they did. >> Yeah. >> But I have not found them. >> I don't know where they can be. >> Is the tape published on your website or >> No, no, I never published the tape. I written about them in my books and things like that. This is Her Evans and his wife Mary Evans. They run this uh they have passed away now but it's still Mary Evans picture library. You can buy pictures. One of the biggest picture archives in England. >> Cool. So, and half of the books you see here comes from Hillary. >> Look at these books. Some of these are beautiful. >> Yeah. Those are the the class 6 ones. Really? >> Yeah. Frederick WH Meyers. >> Yeah, >> I I have that book. And we have it in very early editions. And >> you know what inspired him to write this book? >> I don't remember now. >> Jesus's resurrection. He wanted to prove it >> using science. >> Well, he didn't manage that. >> William James was a president of Society for Cyclical Research, but he was close with William James and part of that. [music] >> You know what this is? >> Yeah, of course. What do you think of this? >> Uh, I think it's something military, but not what the conspiracy theories >> conspiracy theorists think that this is weather modification, weather control. >> Yeah. If they doing that, they doing it very badly. >> Speaking of conspiracy theorists, you wrote a whole book on solar flares. >> Yeah. >> So, what do you think of solar flares? People say that now we have very high solar activity and that the magneettosphere of the earth might be weakening. >> The magnetic poles are shifting. That's proven. Yes, but the Charles Hapg good that that creates this sort of cataclysm. >> No, not Charles Hapgood's theory really, but the science theory is really solid and it could be problematic when it happens. >> Interesting >> because every every gadget you have like uh trying to navigate with would be topsy. >> Yeah. And some of the solar events in the past, like the 1859 Carrington event, would wipe everything out. If >> if that happens today, >> it'd be very devastating. You'd have no electronics, no Wi-Fi, no Yeah. Your grid would be down, no running water. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And we don't have the spare parts. >> Yeah. >> So, it would take months and months and months to rebuild the electrical system. Do you think that uh solar flares send with them a message or there's any sort of intelligent you know there's a a scientist in uh the UK he's in London in Hamstead outside of London named Rupert >> Sheldrake and I know about him >> he writes about the sun being conscious. >> Yeah. >> He wrote a Gaia book in the 1970s and I grew up with that and I know about Rupert Sheldrick very well. >> Yeah. >> Uh no I don't think the sun is conscious. I think it's a star. >> Uhhuh. And the star does what the star does. >> Yeah. >> And the earth is not important to the star. >> Yes. But okay, if I were to push back, >> maybe the magneettosphere of the earth is very important for all animal morphology to grow correctly. Like you could put uh frog embryo in a Faraday cage and it won't grow correctly. If you put it next to a Wi-Fi router, it won't grow correctly. So there's something about the Schuman resonance which >> is part of the anthropic principle allows things to grow and then the sun creates the perfect amount of UV radiation to create the perfect amount of um mutations to allow for you know you know biological evolution. Like if if evolution were too fast it wouldn't be adaptive and if it was too slow it wouldn't be adaptive. And then now we have this new physics that how put off is exploring around the possibility of a scalar field. The NASA and the DOE just published a podcast around scalar physics. >> Yeah. >> And so these scalar waves would get produced by the sun and they move in ways that are don't decay or attenuate over spaceime like your traditional transverse herzian wave. So you could have some sort of communication you know to life on earth via >> I don't think it's communication I think it's what the star does I mean every star does things like that and they are not aware of it they only do their thing >> but of course it affects the life on earth absolutely >> yes but you could say something very similar about a human through a materialist reductionist lens you could say We're ultimately we have the illusion of consciousness but we're not conscious >> and so >> you know we'll never know. >> We'll never know. Of course, >> I think it's quite a big difference between us and the sun or >> it's impossible to say though. I mean clearly yes phenomenologically but um >> you know are we anthro anthropocentrically cutting off consciousness you know at at a certain scale because that's our scale. >> Yeah. You know, I don't know. >> We are a tiny fraction of the universe. So, >> yes, >> this is my friend Frederick Gildal. He's a good guy. He's in Copenhagen. Do you know him? >> No. >> Ah, he's cool. Mar and I met him actually. Um, was it it was two summers ago. This was right before we did the David Grush thing. >> So, how many countries do you have files from? Ooh, I don't know. I have no answer to that. But we have Japanese files for instance and Russian files. >> Wow. >> I I went to Russia once trying to save the KGB files. >> And when I went there, it was uh fightings in the street. There were uh soldiers everywhere. They were shooting, but we were able to find a guy who had copies of some of the KGB files. Omar, do you have any is there anything coming up for you or >> you clearly have spent the decades doing this and I'm just curious why? >> Yeah, why am I doing this? Because I'm very curious about how our world functions. I want to know what people really see. Uh I want to get to the bottom of this mystery and I've done that on several several cases. I know know what they saw. But there are couple of hundred cases during the years that I'm still very baffled about. But uh I don't want to prove anything. I have no axe to grind. Uh I'm not a believer. I'm just a curious researcher that uh I'm I'm aware of that the answers could be something quite different from what I thought from the beginning. Is there something autobiographical whether it's ex synchronicities you experience something in your own life that keeps you going where when you thinking of maybe stopping or quitting something >> I'm quite stubborn you know >> what's that >> I'm stubborn >> it sounds like you are >> yeah and I'm a I'm a natural researcher really from the beginning I'm amateur astronomer and all that and >> I was chosen the educator of the year here in Sweden. >> It's amazing. >> So people know that I really trying very hard. >> And of course it's okay to believe, but I want to know. >> Yeah. And when you say no, what what is that if you were to instantiate that in something very specific? >> Yeah. I want to know what happened really. >> I'm not sure. I want I can >> So do you want an alien being to come down and tell you? Do you want a material? Do you want a material where you're like this is definitely >> in every single case? I want to know what happened. Oh, that's tough, man. >> Because >> it's tough. >> I even think about what people talk about as disclosure. And it's like if if a craft were right here and it had isotope ratios that were weird and technology that we don't really understand as far as anti-gravity, some you know, you know, heavy element reactor thing. What would that do for us? Like what does that would >> change everything? Of course. >> It would change everything, but it would be a thousand more questions. It wouldn't be like, you know, your your whole I want to know. It wouldn't be like I know now. It'd be like you can never tell me what is going on. It's impossible. As you say, every knowledge get some new questions. >> Yeah, that's true. Knowledge >> um questions grow at an exponent of your knowledge growing. So it's like you could think of knowledge like a like a volume in like a cylinder or a sphere or something. the more the sphere grows, the the questions grow, you know, the outside uh at an exponent. >> Yeah. >> And so it's the the more you know, the less you know. And that that really should be sort of with with everything, but then you have these sort of stoaltified fields, which is how you know academia teaches it where it's like there's this received wisdom and it's like the law of thermodynamics and it's like you get to the end of the chapter and it's that's it, you know, end of it. But nothing is that simple. I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain of knowledge today. >> Yes. >> But the mountain is resting on this mountain >> that is even bigger. >> Yes. >> That is moving into the future. >> That's beautiful. >> And suddenly we are little higher up. But there is always a new mountain. Are there any philosophers in the UFO space or even outside of UFOs who you think uh speak most to the UFO question or researchers that you're really inspired by? >> Yeah, I'm inspired by of course we had said Shakali but >> uh Chris Obeck >> is a very very good researcher. >> He's the best researcher when it comes to old cases. >> Yes, >> he's fantastic. His books are fantastic and one of his latest books uh called saucers >> shows that the saucer shape is so scarce >> is not very much reported. Yes, >> still people talk about flying saucers sometimes and think that it should be saucer like >> but it's only a fraction of all the observations are saucer like >> yeah even uh if you look at like the where the saucer came from you know the Kenneth Arnold case it wasn't really saucers they kind of look more like Horton wing >> yeah they were crescent >> crescent yeah like ninja stars or something >> yeah yeah so it's interesting do do you think Um, you know, Carl Jung wrote a book about flying saucers. Are you familiar with this? >> Yeah, I read it. Yeah. >> And he said that, you know, that was the the mandala, which was the Sanskrit symbol of psychic completeness is represented in the UFO, the >> archetype he talks about. And in a way, I understand him, but I don't think he's very important to you for research. >> Yeah. But of course if you're living in society in a society uh you are telling the stories that society can manage to listen to. >> Yes. >> And we are conforming all the time. So it's not strange that it was airship in the 1800s. >> Yes. >> And full fighters and then ghost rockets and now spaceships. M >> it's just that we are using the words we have the most high tech thing we can think of. >> Yes. >> So I don't think it must be anything of that. >> But what's also just John Mack you know Harvard um you know head of the psychiatry department there >> he would say that the the tech we would see would be at the bleeding edge of what we could even create. So it is in some ways >> think really I think. >> Yeah. So in some ways you are snapping it to a grid and you have this meme in your head and you're superimposing it on what you understand. >> But in other ways it's actually like leading technology itself. Like airship were just starting to be a thing but they weren't really a thing. >> No. >> In the 1890s. So maybe they're inspiring technological innovation. >> And you can say the same about the sci-fi writers, you know. >> Yes. They have been leading >> many of the guys who got us to the moon. >> Yes. >> They read the sci-fi first. >> Oh yeah. >> And they were inspired by that and thought, "Wow, this could be done." >> Yes. >> So you need that element to be able to take the next step. >> You you absolutely do. And I think Yeah. You need the mythological element almost always supersedes the the actual doing of the of the thing. M >> but I think we've lost that for at least a little period after World War II maybe and now it seems like things are speeding up again. >> I mean after the World War II we were occupied with other stuff really. >> Yes. >> Building the world again. So >> yeah the dreaming were maybe put in the drawer for for a while. Do you think there's something about, you know, just the space programs themselves >> that interacts at all with the UFO phenomena in a deeper way than meets the eye? >> I don't think so. >> No, I don't think so. >> Cuz you said you said you spent some time with Edgar Mitchell, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, Edgar Mitchell is the um sixth man to walk on the moon. Yeah, he uh Apollo 14 on the way back from the moon he had this sort of parasychological conversion where he >> it's an experiment with the Swedish guy really. >> Ah really tell me about it. >> Yeah they they had managed to put this program that uh uh Edar Richard should be sending >> things and the other one was to pick them up. >> So like a typical mind matter uh experiment where you have a sender and a receiver. >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. >> But there are some problems with that because the time frames were not they were not followed as they should have been. >> But it was interesting that they did it >> very and was it a successful experiment? >> Uh not that successful. >> Okay. >> No no that's too bad. >> He didn't didn't prove anything really. No but it was done and that was very interesting. And he started this society afterwards Edgar Mitchell too that worked with psychical things >> the knowetic society. Yeah. What did you learn anything when you spent time with him? >> Yeah, the thing he was very adamant about was that not a single astronaut had ever seen UFO in space. >> I mean, >> I'm not sure about that. >> I'm sure he said it to me. So, I mean, >> yeah, but maybe he knew them all, >> but they all signed NDAs. And I don't know if you know this James Fox story, but um Buzz Aldrin, according to his sister, had seen a UFO as a fighter pilot in World War II. And James Fox had heard rumors that he had also experienced things in space. And so he followed Buzz Aldrin all around the world. Buzz Aldrin's like, "I'm in this country. I'm in this country." And he's paying for hotels in the different countries just to interview Buzz Aldrin. >> And he's about to get his interview. He's staying at the Monte Carlo Hotel in Monaco. >> And um Buzz Aldrin says, "I'm not doing the interview." I said, "What do you mean you're not doing it?" was like, I I can't do it. He's Paul Allen just invested in SETI and he got labeled a a UFO freak or something and I can't jeopardize my initiative. I'm working with Congress right now. I'm trying to get money to develop a rocket that's going to help put civilians into space. I I can't do it. >> He's implying that he has something to say about UFOs, but if he did, it would hurt his reputation. >> Then he said he said, "How's my story going to change anything anyway?" M >> and I said, "Well, with all due respect, sir, people of your caliber coming forward really helps elevate this topic. Your testimony would be paramount >> to to do that." And remember, this was in the '9s, right? Yeah. It's probably late 90s. I I thought I asked him, but yeah, it was a while ago. And so, uh, he's like, "Well, I can't I'm I'm sorry. It's not going to happen." So, that I was devastated. Like devastated. I mean, maybe we're reading into it, right? But you never know. You want to believe, but he's kind of implying in that comment that >> he has something to say about UFOs. >> And so, and then there's speculation obviously in American Cosmic >> that, you know, astronauts sign NDAs for a reason. You have this guy who now has been outed, his name is Tim Taylor, is a NASA mission controller >> and he says, you know, uh, astronauts are forced to say stay silent, but they all see stuff in space. And so you have more and more coming out about about this. So but you think >> I know a lot of astronauts and cosmetics. >> You do? Yeah. >> And not a single one of them has said anything like that. >> Fair enough. Do you know any very well or how like you know? >> Yeah. I mean the Swedish ones I know very well of course. >> Okay. >> I got to know Gamicha very well. >> Okay. >> Uh I I met with a couple of the guys who walked on the moon and a few maybe 10 cosmon outs from Russia. >> Yeah. And uh one of them told this story that he fooled the other guy in the capsule when he knocked his elbow in the capsule and it produced those ice particles flow flying out. Yeah. >> And he said, "Wow, look there." Oh, wow. It's a fleet of UFOs >> that I know. But u I only tried to comment on things that I really spent time. >> Do you know who Lev is? the uh one of the fathers of the the Russian uh space program. >> No, I don't know. >> So, his uh goddaughter is a woman named Dr. Ia Whitley. I don't know if you're familiar with her, but she's a space psychologist and she sees a lot of astronauts. >> And she says they all see stuff in space, too. So, I It's so interesting because I you seem extremely hard-headed and thorough. I mean, you're like the most thorough guy ever. And so like I I fully trust you when you say you know a lot of >> astronauts. From the horse's mouth. >> Yeah. Me too. >> From someone else who says, "Oh, >> sure. Sure. Sure." Yeah. Yeah. No, I do too. What's so strange about Edgar Mitchell is Edgar Mitchell left behind an estate and he had many papers in this estate. One of the papers from the estate is the Wilson memo which is now talked about ad nauseium in American UFO disclosure. you know, where you have records of Eric Davis, who's a civilian scientist, who's obviously extremely well-versed in exotic propulsion and, you know, UFO stuff related stuff, >> and Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of J2 Joint Chiefs, who's supposed to be in charge of all, you know, military technology, >> and they're meeting outside of the EGNG parking lot. And Thomas Wilson is livid that he hasn't been read into UFO programs. >> That wasn't meant for public uh consumption and that was released from Mitchell's estate. >> Mhm. >> And um that was supposed to be destroyed one year after Mitchell got a copy of it as a courtesy from from who generated it. and uh unfortunate that his kids were sloppy and um and I guess Ed was sloppy in that he didn't give any instructions on what to do with that document if if he should die, but he was supposed to destroy that as far as I understand. >> It seems like Edgar Mitchell is had some really interesting access. >> He was very interested >> in UFOs. Yeah, absolutely. Very interesting. >> Why did he if he goes to space none of his colleagues see anything in space? He does a couple of parasychology experiments. >> Why does he come back so high conviction that you know >> he was a believer even before? I mean >> he was >> yeah he was curious about this but he didn't see anything and he says that nobody else did. So >> uh I only can tell what he told me. >> What were the interesting things he told you? >> Now we talked a lot about he met Yori Galler you know he did experiments Yuri Geller >> he was very much impressed by him. I met Pedor Galler as well. I'm not impressed by him at all. [laughter] I have friends who do exactly the same tricks as he can do. >> Yeah. He seems like a bit of a con man. >> He's a Yeah. >> Well, he also go now he goes on Twitter and he goes he goes Putin don't press the button. He goes, I I had a vision that you're going to. And it's like he's been wrong so many times that it's like >> nobody even care anymore. And I met with James Randy. You know James Randy? >> Yeah, of course. Yeah. We sat like this, but even closer. >> Yeah. >> And he he bent his spoon in front of me. I couldn't tell how he did it, but I know how he how he did it. He bent it like that. I couldn't see it. >> Yeah. >> But the thing he did, he put my my hand over my watch. Yeah. >> And then his hand over my hand and then it moved it and it had it was 5 hours like that. >> Yep. >> And we did it again and it was back to the same time >> as interesting. >> It's hard to do that. But uh >> well he was amazing magician. >> Yeah he was the amazing Randy. >> The amazing Randy. But he he also I don't know I think in some ways he could have been a bit bad faith actor. Like Yuri Geller is one of these things where cases where you have the whole you know the Princeton Parasychology Lab has a whole >> Yeah. >> book on Yuri Geller and like they studied him a lot. Andre Puharic brought Yuri Geller to the states. >> I think it was there Gishel met with Yuri Geller. >> Oh interesting. >> Yeah. So I think there might have been something interesting going on with him from just a pure parasychology perspective and then he also blew it out of proportion had all this BS stage magic that he was doing and then you get the amazing James Randy with his prize to you know be >> but the most gullible people you can you can ask for are the scientists. >> You should put the >> That's interesting. What what do you mean I I kind of agree with you but what do you mean by that? They are not prepared to be to be fooled. They are prepared to watch if they can see something strange and measure it. >> Ah, >> so they think they're that reality is ah that's so interesting. >> Yeah. >> So they're not they're not prepared for a magic trick or something. >> No. No. >> Ah, that's a good that's so fascinating. >> I like the way you you put that. Anything else Edgar Mitchell told you? >> We talk for hours and hours. I don't remember now. I wrote a long article. I think you can find the article in English >> uh if you are >> looking for my name and Ed Mitchell. >> Cool. >> Because I published it and uh it's it's out there. >> That's f >> but it was nice to have a long long talk with him about everything that I was interested in. >> What what um UFO related meeting impacted you the most? >> Oh, that was hard. I mean when I was young and my first investigations I think that made the most impact on me because there was this huge observation near my hometown when I was 16. There were lots of policemen and journalists standing at the top of this mountain watching for hours an object moving in the south. And I was out uh behind my house at the same time uh 100 kilometers away and I also saw the object but they didn't understand what it was and they were so uh excited about this. They made drawings that was really fanciful and there was so much speculation. Every newspaper wrote about this and I knew what it was. >> I wrote to the newspapers. I was 16 and I published my explanation. It was the planet Jupiter. [laughter] >> I saw it for hours and I was so scared about this. Everyone took pictures of it. They were printed in the newspapers and I could compare the stars around this object with my pictures taken the same evening of Jupiter. >> Why? >> The same stars. >> Why would they be so freaked out about the planet Jupiter? >> Because they didn't know what it was. And >> it doesn't normally show in the sky there. >> One guy, a civilian was there. He was an Adamski believer. >> Okay. >> He was a true believer that Adamsky had traveled in space with aliens. Yeah. >> And he pointed to this object and said, >> "Can't you see the windows?" >> They were looking, "Yeah, yeah, we can see the windows." But what I could see were the moons, the three moons that were >> uh >> Jupiter at that point. >> That's unbelievable. >> So he was impacting them and that was very very good uh learning for me >> that if you have a group of people, they tend to see the same stuff >> because you don't want to be the guy that sports >> deviates. >> Yeah. Sports the party. So they're crowd-like dynamics. >> Absolutely. This was my my first big UFO case. >> That's so interesting. It's like Gary Nolan where he got into becoming the UFO scientist by debunking a case like the the Otakama mummy or whatever. So at what point you do that? You debunk this case? >> Yeah, I did. >> And then at what point do you decide you're going to dedicate your life to UFO research? >> I already decided that a couple of months earlier. So this was just the big case. But then I I I met a lot of people with strange stories that was very much more difficult to >> interesting >> to understand. >> But why why did you decide that a couple months earlier? What was the moment? >> Uh I started a small youth for society in my hometown called EU for Maristad. >> Had you had an experience or >> No, no, no, not at that time. I have not seen anything. Uh I was just curious about how everything works and what did people see? I wanted to know what people saw in the sky. Have you had an experience since then? Uh >> yeah. Yeah. I I had an experience together with my wife in 1995, November the 5th. We were out traveling by car. It was uh midnight. We had been out meeting with guys. I think it was a birthday party. I was driving and Analy was sitting beside me and we were just coming into our the suburbs of Stockholm. We were very near our house. And there were two guys standing at the bus stop waiting for the last bus. One of them were pointing up in the sky. Other one was looking. So I said to Annalie, "Can you lean forward and see what they were looking at?" And she did that. But she said, "No, it's a fantastic sky." It was It was a brilliant starry sky. All the night we were traveling back to Stockholm. So we passed them and we [clears throat] were quite near our house. So I parked the car inside our garage and we went out and I thought now I will take a look and see if I can probably find out it was a planet or whatever. So we scanned the sky. They stood 1 meter uh from each other and suddenly out of the black in Gemini between Caster and Pollocks, not from the horizon, just bang came three illuminated plus signs. Pum bum bum. Wow. And they flew. They flew over us and saw it immediately. So I didn't have to say anything, but I said, "Oh, did you see?" Yeah. Yeah. So we ran after them around the corner because they passed over our our roof and we could see them flying over our neighbors roof and and vanishing and they were like glued together. It was a small space be behind beside them but it so they were glued together and they were so easy to see. >> When you say glued together >> I mean they were moving exactly the same speed. Three >> different plus signs. Were they like three UFOs perpendicular to one another or were they >> like beside beside each other? >> So it was a OB. Okay. So they were plus sign formations of UFOs. >> No. No. They were plus signs. >> Solid plus signs. >> Solid plus signs. >> Wow. >> Have you ever heard of a case like that? >> Not at that point, but I took a look. But I should say one more thing that yeah >> I said to Annalie >> we don't talk we go inside here's a form you sit in the kitchen I'm sitting here [laughter] >> spoken like a true UFO researcher so you literally [laughter] made yourself like this double blind w and then you both described what you see and you didn't talk >> no >> that's amazing you you maintained your discipline even in your own sighting >> what should I do >> that's awesome >> so we made drawings and everything and they were not exactly the same and they never are but they were of the same objects. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And after that I put an investigator for you for Sweden to try to find an answer. So he tried to to to see if he could find an answer to this but he couldn't. >> Were the plus signs what color? White or >> white. White. Okay. >> Yeah. >> And how fast were they traveling? >> Wow. How low were they? They felt very low, but it's impossible to tell. I mean, it was a black sky and stars, but they were not satellite altitude, not aircraft altitude. They were lower. >> Any um other anomalies like right angle turns or disappearing or lights or >> The thing was that they were really coming out of the blue on the black, not from the horizon. That was a strange thing. >> It's like they just appeared. Yeah. And >> did >> and I never I never talked about this to anyone for months >> except for the researcher because it was so strange. But uh half a year later I was interviewed on radio and I was asked have you seen anything and I couldn't lie. So I told the story and then the telephone rang uh a couple of hours later and the guy said you should talk to my mother. I called her. She was in her 80s and she was a young girl in the 30s and she had been out with her mother who was in inside a house. She was waiting outside the house in this field. Middle of the day, sunny. She was just bored. And suddenly on the road in front of her, three illuminated plus signs appeared out of nowhere rolling on the road. Huge. >> Whoa. >> And gone. Wow. Were yours also rolling like that? Okay. Hers were. >> Yeah. >> Yours were more floating. >> Yeah, they were rigid. Rigid. Really? >> Wow. That must have It's almost like a cosmic joke that they the UFO researcher sees a thing that looks so not like Yeah. >> flying saucer or even though the flying saucer wasn't seen that much or triangles or is the more common thing. class. Do you think what do you ever wonder what if in one of these random manila envelopes >> the answer? >> Yeah. Or is just the most undeniable evidence? >> Yeah, of course. We haven't read them. >> Yeah. >> I mean, we have read some of them. >> So, you need we need to get you funding, man. >> Yeah, we really need to get some funding to make this available. >> Do you have any plans to digitize? >> We do it all the time. >> Okay. >> All the time. We only one guy would do it. >> Oh. >> So, he's sitting under an avalanche, you know. Well, what's that guy's name? Let's give him a shout out. >> Leif Ostrand, he's a real hero. >> Leif Austr, thank you for doing what you're doing. That's amazing. Who has um spent the longest amount of time here as an independent UFO researcher has gone the deepest on the files besides you? >> Yeah. Yeah. Um who could that be? We have some friends in Europe, of course. >> Yeah. Greg Jedian from the US. ah >> he spent a couple of weeks here uh writing his book. He's a professor in history in Penn State. >> Interesting. >> So he spent why did he is he into UFOs? >> Yeah, he wrote this book about the history of UFOs. >> He did. >> Yeah. >> Okay. I don't know who he is really. >> Oh, he's often on TV and things like an expert. He's very good. >> Do you like him? >> Yeah, I like him. Really good researcher. >> Do you know the Penn State can um Eric Walker? Do you know who that name is? >> Walker. >> Dr. Eric Walker, he was at um Penn State in their materials lab. He was a lead scientist and he had a lot of interesting meetings where he >> seemed to claim that he was part of the majestic 12. >> Yeah. >> There's a British Armenian physicist named Azadel >> and that guy spoke to >> Henry Aadell. >> He's a very very elusive guy. >> He has several names. He he uh published this silver diamonds South Africa thing which a fraud. >> Ah >> so do you think he's like an intelligence or >> Yeah. Yeah. I don't trust him at all. >> So maybe do you think his conversation wasn't real with >> I don't know about Henry Aadero. He's not the bonafide UFO guy >> because you know about his conversation with Eric Walker. Are you >> No, I don't know about that but I know about Henry Aadero. >> So I mean you're I'm sure you're familiar with Grant Cameron. >> Yeah. Yeah. So Grant Cameron wrote uh a book and in it is a whole transcript of a conversation between >> Grant is a good guy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Henry uh I mean he faked those documents or he did spread them with the knowing of them being fake. >> Apparently there was a meeting between Kit Green and Eric Walker where Kit Green was like I want to know about the UFO secrets. Yeah. >> And Eric Walker kicked him out of the office and was like, "I can't tell." He was like, "I know about this, but I can't tell you." And he got very paranoid. >> Okay. >> So, you know, and then there's also um I'm sure you're familiar with um Steinman, William Steinman. >> Yeah. >> So, William Steinman also had correspondence with Dr. Eric Walker. >> Yeah. >> Because he was in touch with Sarbacher. Sarbacher described somebody like Eric Walker as being very involved with crash retrievals. >> And so, he I believe he went to Penn State Steinman. um him and uh Scott was it Scott Crane I believe his other colleague and they tried to meet with Eric Walker and Eric Walker again was like >> you guys are chasing your tails you're like I think he called them actually there's a call between Steinman and um uh Eric Walker and he said you're you know what do you know about the six sense what do you know about sigh and then uh he says you know nothing I don't know anything goes until you know about that. You don't know anything about this and you're chasing you're basically it's like Don Kiote. >> Yeah. >> It's fascinating. So I I was just thinking that because this guy >> that is interesting but not Henry >> Azadel. Yeah. >> Yeah. He has too many problems. >> But but you can't if somebody is an intel agent and they have a lot of fake stuff involved with them. >> You can't always throw the baby out with the bath water. >> Trust them. >> For sure. >> You always have to take everything with a total grain of salt. But you also can't discount everything they say. There are people I think in the US now who are on the circuit >> who I'm pretty sure are like disinfo. >> Absolutely. >> But you that doesn't mean you should not talk to them. >> No. No. Absolutely. Talk to them. Absolutely. >> And then and then hold things in very low probability that they say and look for real corroboration. >> But yeah, >> I agree with that. >> Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. >> Sure. For sure. >> Yeah. >> But too many of them so it's very hard to distinguish. There >> are a lot you know. >> Yeah. I'm just saying with the Henry as a dead like maybe some some stuff's true, some's fake, you know, who knows? >> It could very well be like that. >> So, Claus, you mentioned uh Adam Dempsky, which is a very interesting case. >> Yeah. >> Uh around a guy who also might be kind of a con man or snake oil salesman. Hard to say. Uh seems like he was caught in some lies. >> Some people think that he was just a puppy for the government or things like that, >> right? But many of the pictures he took, you know, those mother ships and scout ships he was traveling, he said, with the aliens to the moon and other things. >> Do you think there was anything to any of his comments or or statements or he was hanging out with some interesting people, you know, he's hanging out with George Vanassel, right, who was, you know, Howard Hughes contemporary. And so do you think there was anything to that case or >> I thought it's rather complicated but I I don't think his uh his pictures have been properly analyzed. >> I think they they should be there one guy who did some analytic work on it but he don't want to share. >> Yeah. >> When I ask him he don't want to share how he did it. >> Yeah. >> And I don't like that. I know there are diaries that Adamsky wrote. >> Yeah. >> And I would love to see them. Uh I know that Glenn Stackling uh has read them. >> Yeah. >> And I would love Glenn to share that, but we have not gotten that far. >> Yeah. >> So there are still some openings or closings. I'm not sure which one it is to the case. So I I want to know more really about Adamsky. >> So you're not you haven't made up your mind. I not made up my mind. I keep a slightly open door. >> Yeah. >> But I think most of it are not as good as it should be. >> What about Billy Meyer? He's another Swiss >> Billy Meer. I don't trust >> you don't you think that he >> hoaxed the photo. I mean the photos look too good to be true in many cases but then >> also complicated where people say you know in the beginning he was attracting real stuff and so and you get the same things sometimes with Chris Bledsoe where >> it's always the story you know in the beginning it was good and yeah >> I don't buy that buy that and if I I have loads of his pictures yeah at home >> and some of them are so incredibly bad you can see there are models standing on on the table >> that's not Good. >> That's He used even pictures from books. >> Yeah. >> You know the time travel he made to the dinosaurs. >> Yeah. Yeah. That was so strange. >> I have that book at home. I took a picture of a dinosaur in that book and said, "Oh, this is a picture I took when I traveled back back in time." >> That's crazy. It's not. He says that in the book. >> Yeah. >> Okay. I I after this it's hard to take him seriously. He says he took a photo of a dinosaur in the book and it's a clearly a fake photo. >> Yeah. Yeah. I have the book myself. You compare it. It's exactly the same picture. >> Jesus Christ. >> And you have this picture when an alien is standing with this ray gun in his hand or her hand. I don't know. The alien is cut exactly there as you can only see the arm and this incredibly fake looking gun like from a toy store. >> I just had a guest on who said this guy's name Jason Resa Georgiani. He says that Billy Myers was like an MI6 agent. Have you heard of that? >> Billy Meyer, also not really his name. I mean, his name was Edward Meyer. He got the name Billy when he was working in Tehran. >> The guy was 007. He was a James Bond style super spy field intelligence operative working primarily in the Middle East. >> Billy Meyer. >> Yeah. Until he had an accident in Turkey in a bus accident. his arm was severed and then he moved on to this property in Switzerland where he became an older man and he became the Billy Meyer that we associate with the contact phenomenon. >> I didn't know that. >> I dug up this and and have documented it all in closer encounters. >> Wow. >> So Edward Meyer >> Mhm. >> was working for somebody in the Middle East that gave him access to all of the Arab potentates. He met with all of the royalty in the Middle East. He had access to the court of the Shaw of Iran. In particular, he was very close to the king of Jordan, >> Billy Meyer. >> Billy Meyer. >> What? He had like British intelligence. >> Tend to love to make stories better. >> Yeah. >> Most of the time he's just an crazy guy making up things to make himself a new Jesus like Bill Mer really tried to do. >> That seems to be a thing. I mean one of the best books I think in UFO research is uh Jacqu Valle's messengers of deception and how it's like you get all this cult creation around >> absolutely >> you know certain figures in ufology. >> It's interesting because there are here in Sweden we had quite a few sorcerer cults. >> Yeah. where uh guys who want to make themselves bigger than they are >> really >> have told stories that are quite far out and got followers mostly women. >> Okay. >> And yeah, >> interesting. Um, what do you think? I I feel like I need to ask you because you've probably seen more UFO photos than maybe anybody in the world. >> Yeah, loads of them. Really? >> What is your top UFO photo? Is there anyone? I mean, the thing about you for photos is that they were better earlier. >> Yep. >> The 70s. And when you call the guys who took the pictures in the 70s, they tend to say, "Okay, I faked it." >> Really? >> I did so with every single Swedish 1970 photo. And it's always young men, >> not a single girl. And when I called them 10 or 15 years later, they said, "Okay, I I admit I did it. It faked." Except one who still maintains his story. And that picture looks so faked. But he's a Christian. He's a very firm believer in Jesus and uh lives a good life. And I give him the chance. Every second year I call him again and say, "Hi, it's me." >> You can admit that you faked it now. And he won't admit it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> What's his name? >> Oh, it's a guy here in Sweden, so I'm not sure. Christ Sunstrom. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> And can Do you have the photo? >> Yeah. I don't have it here, but I can. Of course. >> You can send it. >> I can send it so you can have it in. >> I would love to see it. >> Absolutely. >> Is that the most visually appealing clear photo that you can't debunk? >> It's incredibly clear. I can fake it any minute if I want. >> I did it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I did it as well. >> Well, that's the problem with all these photo. Oh, so you did fake it. >> Yeah, I did a fake. >> Well, you can fake any of these photos and then somewhat certain ones you can't also debunk. And so they end up inherently in this liinal space where if you have a guy who seems really honest and like there's no incentive to fake it, then you're stuck. It's there's no way to fully >> prove it or disprove it. >> The thing is that it's not the picture, it's the story. M >> I mean when you go to this guy and make an interview then to make him uh uh show how he he he saw this incredibly strange trip and how he took the picture and what happened afterwards then it falls apart. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> So you think that there's that it's fake because he the story doesn't actually stand. >> Yeah. story. If you meet with people, you can get uh the facts you need, not by analyzing the picture. >> But this very Christian guy, you think that that photo is fake? >> Yeah, I think it's fake. >> You think it's fake? Yeah. >> So, what's the best UFO photo that you think is real? >> Yeah. I was trying to find out that most people should say the McMin wheel. >> McMin. Yeah. But of course I went to this uh conference in in France a couple of years ago and this analyst showed us that it you could clearly see there is a string >> if you make a data enhancement of it >> really. >> So I don't know anymore. >> Oh no the McMinnville. >> Yeah >> that's like a holy grail you know that's >> it's very hard to find a picture can say that wow this this is good. >> Wow. >> You have to look for the story. So there is it safe to say there are no UFO photos that your very high conviction are real? >> Yeah, I have no photos that I'm except the one I told you about with the radar returner I saw myself. >> That picture is of course of the thing that flow around the lake and the radar picked up. So that was in the northern part of Sweden in 2005. And since I saw the radar return myself on the military radar, >> yes, >> I know it was there. And of course, he couldn't know it was a military radar. >> So you have on that case, you have radar. >> Yeah. >> You have a photo. >> Yeah. Two witnesses. >> And you have two witnesses. >> That might be one of the best UFO cases ever. >> It's for real. I mean, that happened. >> And that's the one you're going to go digging for? >> No, it's around around the same area. around the same area >> but not connected in any other way. >> Okay. >> It's many many years uh between them. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Fascinating. Claus, what do you know now that you wish you would have known as a researcher 40 years ago getting into this field? >> Uh I would have loved to understand that it's very scarce time you have to make interviews with people before they passes away. >> I miss so many >> who that are no longer there. Who's top of the list? >> Lots of people from the ghost rocket era, >> investigators and witnesses that I Oh, in the 1980s when I started to pursue that uh there were gone many of them. >> Who's the number one person? >> Oh, it was a policeman up in the very north of Sweden who was very much uh doing research and met people all around North Sweden >> and made interviews. I missed him. That's uh really really sad. And I I missed of course several of the witnesses around the lakes. >> It's cool that you chose a police officer and the witnesses, which I think is a testament to what you focus on, which are the core details of what happened in each case. Whereas a lot of UFO researchers assume truth on this like large scale and then they get into all these kind of pontificating metaphysical questions. And so you're >> you know very obviously rigorous and so appreciate your time man and thank you for having us. >> Thank you. >> Alchemist. Did you enjoy that? If you want the full picture, head over to the American Alchemy magazine we just launched on Substack. That's where we deep dive into all sorts of crazy topics that we don't have time to fit into every video with weekly articles exploring all of the strange, forgotten, and conspiratorial corners of space, history, and high weirdness. So, join up today at our free or paid tiers on Substack. I am including the full link in the description of this video. Heat. Heat. [music] >> [music] [music]