The Nazca Mummies: Red Flags & Revelations, (w/Will Brown)

I am George Knapp, listening to That UFO Podcast and having one hell of a good time. Hi everyone, and welcome back to That UFO Podcast. As always, my name is Andy, and you're going to love this one, because so many of you for so long have been asking me to follow up on the Nazca Mummies story. And joining me today is researcher, author, and filmmaker, host of the Incredible History YouTube channel, Will Brown. Will, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me, Andy. I appreciate it. So, good to finally get this done. Good to have you on. And for those listening, Will, before we get into the kind of main story of this Nazca Mummies, who is Will Brown? You know, kind of what's brought you to this point in your life where you're talking about this kind of stuff? Yeah, so I am a former history teacher from Kansas. Started this YouTube channel with an interest in anomalies, anthropology, and would go and travel around during my summer times, my spring breaks, and go film a lot of the ancient sites around the Americas in particular. And I had always been interested in the elongated skulls down in Peru. I had watched a lot of Brian Forrester, if you've ever watched this channel, and just was amazed at some of these elongated skulls. And found myself down in Peru in 2024, right after, probably four or five months after they presented these little Nazca Mummies, these little ones, to the Mexican Congress, if you remember that whole debacle. Everybody was making fun of it, and I remember kind of even being like, that's really strange that, you know, they would get the clearance to even put those there. I wonder if there's anything interesting to that. And I was in Peru writing my, or getting ready to write my second book that I still am writing, but I was looking for some interesting things down there. And when I was at the airport, I saw that they had confiscated some fake dolls from the airport, and that the Nazca Mummies was a hoax. This proved it. And I started looking into it more on Twitter especially, and quickly realized that there was far more to this story than was being told, as many of your viewers already know. Most people know at this point that those little dolls that they found in the airport that did have like chicken bones and animal bones, that does not explain two of the big ones in particular, Maria and Montserrat, and then several other of the big ones. Those are my two favorite ones to focus on because there's a lot of weird anomalies with that. And just to preface this, I'm just a normal guy that's interested in these things. And I was down there, I guess, at the right time. I had an iPhone camera. I had some time. And the proponents were willing to talk to me. I found myself interviewing doctors. I found myself interviewing a lot of the early people that were involved with this, a guy named Edward Valenzuela, who's a member of the Inkari Institute down there, and just had this incredible adventure, put together this documentary called Show Me the Mummies. Fast forward a few years later, and I actually got to, or not a few years later, but a year and a half later, I actually got to see the mummies this last April in 2025. And so on Tuesday, I'm going to be doing a new video on my YouTube channel about this. So it's basically highlighting three hard-to-explain anomalies. And there are some weird things that need answers. And then the red flags, because there still are red flags involved in this that I think people need to consider. And so if you want, we can get right into that. Well, I'll tell you what, let's take a quick step back on the actual Nazca Mummies situation. A lot of folks listening and watching are probably aware of it. Some folks will know fantastic levels of detail. Some folks will know far less. I've interviewed William Gallison and Stephen Brown on a couple of occasions on the topic. Had a lot of discussions on it, but just let's talk about that. I remember the morning of the hearing where Jaime Musan brought the mummies out. Ryan Graves had been a part of it, hadn't he? And had no idea that these bodies were about to be unveiled. It was a big surprise, like a Money in the Bank cash-in if you're a wrestling fan, where they just appeared out of nowhere. Ryan Graves stood up and walked out. He was really unhappy that this happened. And I was on a train from Newcastle to London that day. And I can't remember what for. I don't do it that often. And I remember folks messaging on the Discord and my email and Twitter DMs and stuff. And they were like, have we got disclosure? Oh my God, the Mexicans have disclosed. And I was like, what the hell's happened? And as the kind of morning went on and I checked and things like that because of time differences, I got the whole story and kind of things unfolded from there. But do you want to take us through a kind of rough guide to the Nazca Mummy story? What happened? Yes. Yeah. Yes. So 2016 is when the mummy Maria was supposedly found. Maria is really the first big one that most people during that time frame remember. And it was popularized by a Gaia documentary. So Gaia went down there with a Russian scientist, Jaime Mossad, and some other characters that were involved in this earlier. Started doing DNA testing. Gained reports were coming back that the genetic sequence was only 70% human and 30% completely unknown. Obviously, we had the three fingers is the big one. If you haven't heard of this, these beings have three fingers. They call them tridactyls. And I remember seeing that, but kind of just, you know, Gaia, when I saw it was Gaia, I kind of dismissed it. I'm sorry if people are fans of Gaia out there, I'm not trying to flame them. I just dismissed it. And so fast forward to 2023, September 2023, and there was some other stuff that happened in between then. But the big thing that made it pop again was the presentation of the little ones at the Mexican Congress. And then from there, I started looking into this and asking questions around January 2024. And I don't know if you remember this, but all of a sudden, they start presenting more bodies. They start presenting three or four new bodies. Some of them had metallic implants in their head. One of them was announced at a press conference in Lima that I was attending, that it was pregnant with a fetus, or that, I mean, it used to be pregnant. It has a fetus inside of it. At that press conference, while they're announcing all this, it was unbelievable. The feds literally raided the press conference, the Ministry of Culture. And I'm just sitting there with my iPhone watching this happen. They literally grabbed the mic from Joe Esmantia, a reporter that's been working on this for years down in Peru, and took over. They were there looking for the bodies. And so there's been this huge struggle between the University of Ica, who preserves these bodies and keeps them, is kind of their caregivers right now, and the Ministry of Culture, which oversees all antiquities in Peru. The Ministry of Culture for a very long time was not very cooperative. I think they wanted this to go away. In the meantime, there's been new management there, I believe. And they're starting to be a little more cooperative and kind of starting to realize, hey, there are serious questions that need to be answered about these things. And hopefully, we're going to get to the bottom of it. So is that a good overview of kind of the Nazca mummies, these three-fingered beings, some of them small, some of them large, that look very human? Looks like a normal mummy, I guess. They're covered in this diatomaceous earth, which is what the proponents say is the reason they're so well-preserved. And that's why they have that white color. And that is true. They are actually covered in this diatomaceous earth. Whether they were found in diatomaceous earth or covered afterwards, you know, that's part of the mystery. But yeah, they're... And so my whole thing, a lot of people get upset with me because I'm a fence sitter on this. But I promise you, there are reasons to be cautious for both sides. Coming out and just saying, they're all fake, they're all animal bones. That's not true. The big ones are not animal bones. Okay, they're... That narrative that was being pushed by the press is not true. There's some absolutely incredible anomalies that we should talk about. But also, there's a dark side of all this. There is an antiquities mafia down in Ica. There have been, millions of dollars paid for some of these. I shouldn't say there has been rumors that millions have been paid for some of these. And that should all be considered because there's some red flags. So does that kind of give you a good overview? Yeah, I think it does. And it gives us a few different places, I think, to kick off from then. So where do you think is best? Do we go from where these things were found? Do we start from the kind of fake versus the hoaxies? What do you want to go with? Well, the main red flag is where were these things found? That is the biggest red flag. Before we get to that, maybe we can just talk about the possibilities here and why this is interesting. Sure, go for that. There's three possibilities here. And then there's subcategories of the possibilities too. But I'll just do the overarching possibilities. And all three of them are interesting to me because for me, I like to tell a good story of the events that are happening. My whole thing is I like to document what's going on as it's going on. And so all three of these possibilities are great. Possibility number one, these are hoaxes. If that is the truth that these are hoaxes, this would be the greatest archaeological hoax of all time in my humble opinion. These bodies were presented to the Mexican Congress. Credentialed scientists and doctors from all over the world have been convinced that these are authentic beings. You know, it's not just a couple of doctors that are saying this. There's several, so many down in Peru and then all over Latin America, including the former head of like the surgeon general of like the Mexican Navy, Dr. Salce. And I'm sorry if I got those credentials wrong, but he has presented some very interesting reasons as to why these might be real. He's also connected to Jaime Masson. And I know people have their opinions about that. Possibility number two, this is some type of ancient ritual, right? Maybe there was manipulation that happened, but it happened in ancient times. If that's the case, this is one of the greatest discoveries in anthropology, archaeology, coming out of South America ever. Especially when we get to how sophisticated it would have to be when we talk about some of the anomalies. In particular, just a little kind of spoiler alert, the metal rods that are fused to tissue, indicating that whatever that was was alive whenever that happened. We'll talk about that in a minute. And then possibility number three, these are real beings. They were born the way that we see them here on Earth today or somewhere else, wherever. And that would be the greatest discovery of all time, in my opinion. That'd be incredible. So all three possibilities were very interesting to me. So let's go with the first one then, that they are straight up hoaxes, which I think is probably the easiest assumption for especially the general public to make. And it's funny, when I was doing a little bit earlier on just today, polishing, we were going to record, peek behind the curtains last week. So the interview was written. In the meantime, Jesse Michaels, American Alchemy documentary dropped as well. I'd recommend folks go and watch that, of course, as well as your own one. Well, the links will be in the description for those folks. So I watched that again today. I made some additional notes and I just, I'd done the old, you know, if you Google something now, you're using Google AI or Gemini, whatever it's called. And immediately it was like, no, these are almost definitely hoaxes and telling you why it thinks they're hoaxes. And I think it's the easy one for the general public to go to, namely money exchanging hands, some of the folks involved, i.e. Jaime Massan, and the fact that there were fakes involved. And that's what I'd probably like you to start with, where you've got these smaller dolls that were uncovered at the airport, which were found to be fake. Is that right? Because my timeline with this is a little mixed up, but there was some smaller fakes that were discovered. And I think those have been lumped in now with the wider story, because once one thing has been shown to be a hoax, even if it's loosely connected, it just tarnishes the whole thing. And that put a lot of people off. Correct. So starting with those small ones, yes, and right away, I think everyone knew those were hoaxes. They dressed them up, trying to disguise them. And the person that made those immediately came out and said, yeah, no, no, no, I made these. I was trying to sell them as souvenirs in Mexico. They were made up, they were basically Frankenstein with a bunch of chicken bones, maybe a llama skull. I might be wrong on the llama skull part of that, but completely different than what we're talking about with Maria Montserrat, and actually also completely different than a couple of other small ones with the metallic rods inside of them. So that really just muddied the waters big time, and probably forever. This is probably one of those things, and oh, I don't know, there's Jesse Michaels is doing some very cool things where he might help us get to the bottom of this with DNA. Maybe we can talk about that in a moment. But this is one of those things where I hope it's not the case, but I think if they are proven as hoaxes, there will always be a group that'll be like, no, it's a cover-up. And then vice versa, if they are proven real, people have very strong opinions about this, basically. And then if we're going to stay on the note of red flags, if we want to start there. Yeah, let's go for that. Red flag number one is where were these found? Why can't they tell us that? The person that supposedly found this is a known grave robber and sells things that he finds to buyers in the black market. Yeah, yeah. And there's been rumors that hundreds of thousands and even maybe a million bucks has been paid for some of the big ones. That's just a huge red flag. People say, well, they have to go through all this effort to do this. Who would put this much effort in there? Like, what's the incentive? And the answer to that is a million bucks. Yeah. And so, you know, he has had people pay him to show them where the site is. And even the proponents are like, no, this is not the site. There's no way this is the site. And he maybe has shown multiple sites. There was rumors that there was an underground citadel. There was just a bunch of stuff that felt like nonsense with the actual site. And the site is important. Like, archaeology is like a crime scene, right? The way these, like an archaeologist is going to go there and try to figure out what happened, where they were placed, what was going on. And that would be really good to know. So if there's a site that's not a lab in Ica or Palpa, that's people are Frankenstein in these things. If there is a site where they actually found this, then that would be good to know. Yeah, I think, just to comment on that, Will, I think if you're right, if a crime scene, if the police are brought a dead body by someone and they're handed the dead body over in the police HQ and they say, where did you find this? Oh, it was out in the woods somewhere. I can't show you where, but trust me, this is where it happened and this is what I found. You wouldn't take their word for it. No, no, we have to go to the scene of the crime. We have to investigate. We have to see what's round about. We have to see what else was there. Are there tracks? And essentially, this is what's happened here. Now, watching the documentary from Jesse Michaels, am I correct? He says, they tried to charge $1,500 or they were charging $1,500 to show people where the site was. But then in one of the clips, and I think the clip, now, Michael Mazzola, who we'll get to at some point, former guest of this podcast a few years back now, he has a documentary due out later this summer called This Is Not A Hoax. And there are some clips from that shown within the documentary as well. And I believe the, is it the same guy who's showing them the alleged cave where these are found? And it's a really small area up in the hills, basically, on the mountains. And it does not look like you could fit two or three people comfortably side by side. And they're claiming they found 200, you know, bones, skulls, bodies, all in this really, really small, tight-knit area, which again, like you say, red flag, the where, this has just got BS thrown on top of it already. Right. Another red flag. And keep in mind, there are some things that we're going to talk about that are hard to explain that keep me going, what the heck, man? Maybe there is something here. But red flag number two or three, I can't remember which one we're on right now, is, so, first of all, we keep seeing these incredible scans of some of these bodies, right? I don't know if you've seen some of the DICOM scans on tridactyls.org. Shout out to Gonzalo, who has made that website. It's amazing. You should go check out Maria and Montserrat in particular, and then Sebastian. Those are just amazing. But, recently I've been seeing some images circulated online by people down there that are showing these decapitated giant heads. And I mean giant heads. And, why aren't there scans of those? We, if, if they're scanning all the other ones, can we scan those giant heads so we can confirm that what we're seeing on the surface is what's underneath the surface as well? Or is it just moldered around some skull? And I can send you a picture of that, Andy, one of them. I had seen some photos of those before that were just like, dude, fake. It just looked fake. To be fair, the one that I saw on Twitter the other day, which is now public, somebody tweeted it, looks a little more realistic than some of the other ones I saw. But, that to me is like, okay, let's, let's get a scan for that. You know, we have scans of Maria and Montserrat's, which is, are the most interesting ones to me. But why not the giant skulls? When it comes to the scans, there's a few things for me. One, I get it costs money to scan these things, okay? And you need someone with equipment to do that, which I imagine the university has. However, one thing I felt, watching the Jesse Michaels documentary, which is very good folks, I'd recommend it, and the production values are great too. And Jesse has a wealth of knowledge and does a lot of digging. He made a comment that I didn't, he made a comment though, I didn't agree with Will, where he, he looks at a scan and he says, oh wow, even, even someone like me with no expertise in what I'm looking at can tell these aren't fake. And I'm like, well, no, you can't say that then because I wouldn't know what I was looking at. I think I know. I think I've seen enough medical dramas and movies over the years to, to recognize a scan picture, but I don't know what can and can't be faked. You know, what can and can't be put inside of something to make it look like a body, a spine, a spinal cord, all that kind of stuff. So you, you do have to, to hand these things off to the experts to comment on that and say, here's a scan, but yeah, what am I looking at here? And is this genuine? Because a scan picture is a scan picture. Why is it genuine? Why is it fake? So I could, I could appreciate that, but in terms of the whole scan situation for you, what's, what's the most interesting aspect of that? And what does that prove? Are you able, I would ask, are you able to read those as well? And can you tell this is genuine or not? So I'm with you, not an expert on this, a humble observer that has communicated what I've learned. And, you know, I've had some reels on Instagram go viral. I've been down there for the press conference. I've interviewed a lot of these people, but true, truthfully, no, I'm not a doctor, but I will say, and maybe Jesse meant it this way from the eyes of a layman. I'm like, Oh my goodness. You know, the eyes do appear to be bigger, right? The skull is clearly elongated with Maria, which, you know, we know is common down there. But what I usually stick to is just the observations of the doctors down there. And so I can tell you some interesting things that doctors have told me about the scans. And I'll tell you an interesting thing that might be a red flag about the scans that isn't talked about a lot, actually. Go for it. So interesting thing about the scans. I talked, I interviewed Dr. Zuniga senior. There's two Dr. Zuniga's down there in Peru. Senior and junior. Dr. Zuniga senior told me that Maria, the first one that was found has 32 vertebrae instead of 33. Humans have 33 vertebrae. Now that's not impossible. That is an anomaly that happens with humans sometimes, but that's notable because we are trying to find things that are different, right? Maria apparently has like a protruding jaw. If you look at the scans, another thing that's really interesting that we should talk about before I talk about the, actually I'll stick to Maria for a moment. Now a possible red flag. And I'm not a doctor. A lot of the doctors down there say there are no signs of manipulation on the hands or the feet. Well, I found an interesting video online. I've got my notes here by a guy named Daniel Proctor. I believe his name is. Sorry. Let me just find this real quick. And he is a bioanthropologist at a university, a smaller university in Wisconsin. And he's actually published papers on the evolution of hominids being able to grasp their hands. He's published a lot of stuff on the evolution of the foot pretty relevant. I'd say to this topic, he did a review over some of the published publications of Maria, and he believes he found several points of manipulation. In particular, he thinks the area that the thumb would be on a, on a human has been removed and that you can see a, you know, a blank spot there. You know, I've asked other doctors to respond about this and they said, ah, the imaging is just not good enough to see, but I will send you that link. It's a 20 minute video and I'd ever see anyone talk about it. This guy has pretty good credentials and he thinks he found some points of manipulation. Now, can I tell you the most interesting anomaly that to me is, is, is so hard to explain if it's true. Yeah. All right. So I also talked to the younger doctor Zuniga who is both a certified or licensed medical professional and a licensed dentist, which is pretty common in Latin America. Sometimes there's a lot of overlap. Yeah. And so he noticed on one of the multiple of the small ones, and I think even on some of the bigger ones, but we'll focus on the small ones and I'll send you a photo of this scan. And he got these rods here and he noticed what he called osseointegration, which means as a dentist, when you do some type of dental surgery and you put like a metal implant in there, after about six months, it starts to fuse to the tissue within side your mouth. And he was seeing the same thing happen with these metal rods in the chest of these little ones, organic tissue. And there's pictures of this. I'll send the pictures, organic tissue fused to the metal rod. And so that would indicate that that was placed on something when it was alive. You know, that's really strange. And I, you know, he's a professional, so I'm just kind of taking his word for it. And there are interesting pictures that look what, like what he's talking about. But as you said before, I'm just a layman. So I would like to see like peer review studies on that claim, because if that's true, like how do you explain that? That's, that's insane. That's, and do you understand what I'm saying there with the osseointegration? A hundred percent. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Like you're saying, you're grafting on your, your body almost starts to accept it as part of the body and take things in. And, and that for me as a layman, as many folks listening to this will be, I'm sure is something I can go, okay, that sounds interesting. That sounds a bit different. Like you say, I'd like to hear experts tell me why this is so interesting. And why it makes something potentially even more anomalous. Just to kind of sidebar on that slightly, you mentioned that the metal bar across one of the smaller objects. What strikes me with this whole Nazca mummy situation, you mentioned Maria, who is the original, the OG, the goat. Maria always reminds me of the kind of aliens from alien, the movie, Sigourney Weaver franchise, because of the kind of the head, the shape and everything, you know, 1.6 meters, I think unraveled would be the size of Maria. So quite big. Montserrat as well as similar with that shape, but they look very different. Who by the way has a, has a fetus inside. The fetus. Yeah. So yeah, Maria's the OG, Montserrat's got the fetus. The hands are positioned in a certain way to, that it would likely be holding the stomach. So passed away while pregnant, you know, which is tragic as well. They've got to, I think, come back to that human element of this potentially when you talk about if these are hoaxes or if they are fake even or non-human, what that may mean. But the, the size of those objects or beings, whatever they are, we're going to say beings for the purpose of what we're talking about. And then the smaller ones seem so different. You know, they are, they're very small. They're what? 50. How small are the 60 centimeters? Like a ruler, a couple of rulers in size. Yeah. So they are much more doll. Like, you know, you could get a big Power Ranger toy that size when you were a kid or when I was a kid anyway. Is there much correlation between why you've got these small ones and then why these huge big ones? Is the assumption from the people you've spoken to or any of the work you've looked at, they are related in any way, shape or form? These are smaller children to the bigger adults or what's the thinking there? Because that's something to me, it just seems like you've got two different types of being. Well, I guess, you know, with the proponent, a lot of the proponents are saying is that we're seeing some type of genetic test ground, ancient genetic test ground, that these might've been human hybrids. I think in Jesse Michaels documentary, he even says that the translation for one of the towns out there is something about like artificial. I can't remember the exact, I'm butchering this badly right now, but go check out Jesse Michaels documentary. It basically that some type of artificial manipulation was going on and, you know, genetic testing was happening down there where they're creating these hybrid humans is what the proponents say. And then like, I guess another explanation people will say is that, well, the big ones are real and maybe the small ones were ancient dolls that were being created to, you know, honor them or mimic them, you know, in like a ritualistic way. I don't know. It's really weird. It's really weird. I think they call them two different types of the J type. There's the big ones and the small ones is what I call them. I don't get too technical with the science names that they're trying to give. I appreciate that. The big ones. Yeah. Yeah. The big ones, the tall ones. And so, yeah, now monster rot. Has the fetus inside. And now the proponents are saying, and I'll send you an image of this as well. That the fetus has three fingers. And, you know, if that was the case, that's pretty hard to explain. That would be wild. I asked Josh McDowell, who is the lawyer of the scientists that are the forensic scientists that have been looking into this from the United States. And they are amazing forensic scientists. And he said that the imaging in his opinion and their opinion is just, it's not good enough to say either way yet. You know, we really need to get one of these or several of these to the United States in the proper laboratories. It's not that, it's not that the science can't be done in Peru because they're lacking scientists, but the laboratory is in the, in the DNA testing, all that stuff would be better suited in the United States for sure. But if you look at the scans of like the fetus inside, I've always just really looked hard. Can you see three fingers? I can never see it, but there's an image that they have kind of highlighted what they believe is three fingers. In my mind, I'm like, you know, did they kind of cherry pick that a little bit and highlight it the way they wanted? But it does look very real. And I'll send you that image. So, but American scientists are saying we need better imaging to confirm or deny that. Let me come in there then with, you visited the, the petroglyph fields. Yes. And am I saying this right? The area is, is Nazca and Nazca. Yeah. That's Palpa. That's the Nazca area. Nazca area, Palpa. Sure. No, I'd rather get it right. Cause folks from there will be thinking, you know, it's like someone saying Scotland's part of England and it's not, you know, I can hear some people sniggering as I say that online from the UK. But I want to get it. I want to try and get it right. And I think many folks will at least be familiar with the term, the Nazca lines where you have these huge images that are viewed best from several miles up, you know, so best viewed from the sky. These things were created at a time where you didn't have any type of vehicle to get around. So who were those created for? And then you've got the smaller images, which are carved into rocks and caves and, and whatnot that you went to see. And I bring this up because some of those images would potentially show three fingered or tridactyl beings. And I wanted to ask you the same thing. Well, that is it just the case that these, and how far back are these images going? Again, you're a history professional. I believe that that, I believe that that petroglyph field has been dated anywhere from like 2000 to 1000 years old. That's a big range, but, um, there's a lot of petroglyphs out there. There's probably multiple generations on that particular field. It's overlooking a river in a desert. So it's a very, it was a very important spot. So multiple generations out there, but likely between the regions of like ranges of 2000 and 1000 years old. Okay. And they've been exposed to the elements, the heat, you know, any storms over the years and everything like that. So I appreciate that. And, but they're still remarkably observed, preserved, and you can see them so clearly. Um, I am not a talented artist and I, I will not, you know, talk down or denigrate the, the, the, the artistic capabilities of folks that several thousand years ago, but is there a possibility that they were just using a basic form of illustration as in two dots with the eyes around head. And this is something that not just on the Jesse Michaels documentary, um, and other shows like ancient aliens and all these different history documentaries over the years, you'll be familiar where ancient astronaut theory states, okay. The, the famous phrase that these beings look like astronauts or they look like this. Is it not just the representation, you know, and I'm finned sitting here of a round head and then the hands, they've just not gone into detail to draw five fingers. Now you could say, well, why don't they just draw a round lump for a hand? Why not just draw one appendage or two? They have gone with three. So where do you fall down on this from a historical perspective that many of these images seem to show beings with three appendages potentially? Yeah. All over the place, Puerto Rico, Chile, uh, all over the Caribbean, North America and Utah. There's three image, or three, three petrogates with three digits. Uh, and I agree with you. Uh, with the petroglyphs possibly just, you know, they're doodling. Some of the stuff might just be ancient graffiti that being said, and this was in the Jesse Michaels documentary too. And I've seen this. Um, if you go to some of the museums in the Nazca areas where they're making these incredible, um, textiles where they're putting images on them, clearly they put a lot of thought and interpretation into it. They're also showing these weird little beans with three fingers on some of those. So that's a little different. Like there's actual effort and thought going into that. Why don't they just give them five fingers? You know, I can understand on, uh, a petroglyph where they're just doodling. They're just doing it real quick. But also if you look at that petroglyph that I featured and I'll send you photos of it, you can just throw it up. That whole rock, I did a, uh, 3d scan of it. It's called a poly scan. And you can kind of go around it and whoever was drawn. That was, you know, I don't know what was going on their mind. There's like beams going up from the bean and some of the rocks. There's like, what looks like DNA sequences. It doesn't appear to, and that's going to, I'm going to get a lot of crap for that in the comments, but like, it is an incredible petroglyph. It's one of my favorite petroglyphs I've ever seen, mainly because I had to climb a mountain to see it. But, uh, yeah. So I would say, uh, the, I agree with you that some of this stuff might just be explained by it's easy to draw three fingers, but then what about the textiles where they're clearly putting a lot of effort? They're coloring it, you know, they're weaving it, you know, that's, it's interesting when you see three fingers on those. Would you say there's a relation then to, for example, the Nazca lines, which I think if I think of the Nazca lines, immediately I think of the, the sort of winged birds that, that really stands out again, due to sheer size, size of these things. And from the ground, you, you don't really look like anything, do they? They just look like lines in the ground, but then the further up you go, the higher you go, um, several miles in the air, isn't it? Is the ideal vantage point to view what they are. Yeah. Me and Michael Collins of wandering wolf productions and, uh, Nikki on a Jones, we flew above those and got to see them. I got sick in the plane. Like it was, it was crazy. They're just dive in and you're getting close to this mountain. You think you're going to crash and you're seeing another one as for like, if there's an association, if these are real, there's gotta be right. The Nazca lines are so weird. Uh, they're so strange that they did this knowing that we're not going to be able to really see our work. We know what we made, but we're not really seeing our work. Um, it's not, I don't know. It's not for them on the ground. It's for something up there, which is looking down or coming down. Otherwise it seems incredibly pointless. Unless you can tell me from a historical perspective, there's examples of this out there that you would create these huge illustrations. There's lots. Yeah. In the North America is full of gigantic geoglyphs. Uh, Serpent's mound in Ohio. Uh, the Blythe and Toglios in, um, California, all over Iowa, the Midwest, Kansas, where I'm from originally has, uh, these huge geoglyphs, but they're very well preserved out in the desert. That's why the Nazca lines are. And to be fair, the Nazca lines are very elaborate and beautiful. Like they are the top dog for these, uh, where you're at, there's geoglyphs out in, out in Europe as well. Um, they're different though, right? Like some of those are like used with blocks and where these are kind of, you know, carved in the desert floor. And some of them are huge. There's looks like these giant runways where like something would land. Like they basically carved off the top of a mesa, you know, there's some weird stuff out there, but that being said, a lot of that's the, under the assumption that if these are real, that they're, you know, aliens that came from space and not from earth or, you know, down here, there's so many things, so many angles that people have convinced themselves on this. Now, um, that brings me to another point. This is starting to get more traction because, well, Jesse Michael's documentary, Joe Rogan's been talking about it, but actually we have a congressman in the United States and I'm so sorry. It's escaping my name. I, uh, kind of stay away from the Congress and all that. Eric Burleson. Yes. Yes. Missouri was, yes, correct. Missouri. Uh, he was told by David Grush that these things fit the profile of what he had seen or been told about and that he should maybe go check it out. You know, that's, that's pretty wild. Um, you know, I'm, I am not that big into the UFO community, so I don't know what people's thoughts are on David Grush. I don't really know what my thoughts are on David Grush. What's your thoughts on David Grush? Like, I love, I love when guests ask me a question and bring me into the show. Uh, it lets me, it lets me talk for a minute. Um, so, uh, good timing on this one. And do you know what? I love the fact, well, and I think a lot of listeners and viewers will appreciate the fact you've said you're a normal guy, same as me with an interest in something. You got involved in something and you've just dug into it and you're, you're, you're sharing that opinion, which is great. And I love the fact that you're not heavily involved in the UFO community because it gives you a, a little bit of an innocent, fresh perspective on this. And I think you've seen a little bit of what it's like at times. Um, David Grush, I think I have to speak very generally for the UFO community. I think most folks would say he is one of the most credible people to come forward in decades and this topic, um, because of how he presented himself, because of the way he speaks, how eloquent he is, the, what he said, and the fact that he's not for lack of a better term and much to my debt, you know, detriment, hoard himself around the podcast scene, which seems to be a, a bone of contention with some folks, but you know, it's, it's modern media. It's how folks get around done a couple of appearances. There's been no big movie deal, no big book deal for him. It's essentially been, he came out, told a story on one or two huge platforms, done the hearing, and then has worked quietly in the background. And I think that again, for many lends an air of mystique, an air of frustration, an air of credibility. It depends where you fall down on it. Um, for him to be working with the secrets task force and on, on the staff with a representative Burleson is an interesting move. I think that really helped lend some credibility for me and some others to, to the task force, um, to Burleson and what they're trying to do. Um, the political landscape is a bit messy in the U S as it is, as you'll know, but even just in the UFO community, if you're not entrenched in it, as we record this, well, um, just in the last few days, you've got Congresswoman, Anna Paulina Luna had her appearance on Joe Rogan, which a lot of great stuff, some here, not there stuff in questionable moments, but I think she tried to put across some, some good points as best she could. Um, however, it's ended up with an online spat between herself and Louise Elizondo. This has then ended up with them both exchanging receipts, as the kids would say, um, which doesn't look good for anyone involved in this. You've then got Eric Burleson. Eric Burleson himself has stepped in and said, look, I'm really sorry. I may have been involved in the confusion here, actually coming across like the adult in the room to be fair to Eric. Um, and trying to, to say, look, let's just crack on and let's work together on this. And then it's led to a whole lot of nonsense online. Um, so all that to say politically, it's a bit of a mess. It was interesting to get Eric Burleson, a congressman, a sitting congressman down there to view this stuff, um, to look interested at the very least. He's not going down there and saying, my God, I went to view aliens. David Grush told me there's aliens. I had to go. He was prompted by Grush to go down there. Uh, and for, for all the waffle I'm giving here, I will preface it by saying, just because David Grush told him to go there, doesn't mean David Grush or Burleson believe these are true, genuine non-human artifacts. These are just potentially representative of what David Grush has been told or seen himself. And I think something we have to be wary of in the UFO community is when someone says they have seen something or been told something, you have to judge for yourself. Okay. Who told them? When did they see it? How did they see it? Were they shown the same photographs that we've seen online, but talked about and questioned in a skiff? So because they've seen it in a skiff, does that make it any more or less credible? It could be Stephen Greer has handed over a document on a congressman's desk or a congresswoman's desk and said, here's a briefing for you. That doesn't make it any more or less credible than you getting that, or myself potentially. So, Grush, I'd love to hear more from him. I'm glad he's working with these folks in the background. I think he's doing real honest work, or at least as honest as he believes it is. And, yeah, the whole political involvement in the UFO scene has made things ultimately a little bit more muddy. But I think part of that is, part of it will be a kind of disinformation. Part of it is just lack of being informed. And I think there's elements of it. It's where people newer to the subject, regardless of being in the Senate or in Congress or whatever, are trying to get involved in a subject. Really, they're throwing themselves in at the deep end, and they're having to wade through a lot of shit to try and work out where things are at with this. And I don't envy them. So, I know I'm out of my realm a little bit here, but do you care if I go down the rabbit hole of paranoia for just a moment? Absolutely, go for it. I just know enough about, like... I guess what they call Plot Project Bluebeam, you know? And then you got Jeremy Corbell talking about the imminent, you know, lie that's about to be told about the craft that's coming. I don't know if any of that's true. Sometimes I do just get worried, like, is option four... Well, I guess this would be option one, the hoax. But is it something bigger? Like, is this part of just muddying the water to, like, just get people kind of on board with the idea that, you know, something's coming or that we're not alone? I don't know. And listen, that is just one paranoid thought I had. That's not actually my opinion. I love, I love a piece of wild speculation, like, and I think, like you've just done, as long as you frame it that way, then no one's going to clip it and stick it out online and be like, Will Brown proclaims something's coming. And I don't think that's unfair. I mentioned to you earlier, the fake dolls that were then... It then discredited a lot of the rest of this whole Nazca mummies saga because people went, oh, those are fake. That means everything else is fake. And I think there's an element of that happens in the UFO topic where if, let's just very briefly mention, for example, Lou Elizondo comes out and holds up a picture of the irrigation circles, irrigation fields, and folks jumped on that as, well, he got that one wrong. He claimed, and there's nuance to this, we know, but I'm not going to go into everything again. He claimed these were flying saucers sent to him from a pilot. They weren't. That discredits everything. I don't think you can do or say that, but it does for a lot of folks. So then if you look at the mummy situation, if it turns out this is a hoax, that leaves a bad taste in the mouth for a lot of other things potentially. Well, if they fake that or hoax that, then this could all be fake and hoaxed as well. The idea that all the recent UFO stuff in the Air Force and the Navy was a hazing operation done for a laugh in Roswell, and it just gets a bit ridiculous. But isn't this whole topic at times ridiculous, especially when you start to try and piece all these different aspects of it together? So, yeah, I don't mind the speculation on the whole something's on its way. But, yeah, I don't know if folks... To be clear, I don't necessarily think something's on its way. A lot of folks do. It's fair. A lot of folks do, though. And I think people are putting potentially two and two together and getting five with this three-eye atlas object that Avi Loeb has talked about. And Avi only threw out his own opinion to say, you know, it could be something else. We have to look at the options here. There are some interesting elements to it. I think, like you're doing, Will, with the mummies we're chatting here, there are some interesting elements to this that are worth studying further. And then he goes on to theorise, you know, what, if it is something hostile or threatening, isn't that worth knowing and going to investigate? And some folks have jumped on that and went, well, if something was potentially on its way... And a lot of this seems to come from the whole three-body problem thing that people... I don't know if you watched the series or read the book or... If you haven't, I recommend the Chinese one online. It's phenomenal. A lot longer and a little bit drier, but ultimately better payoff. But the whole idea that... Or you can watch the three-body problem on Netflix, which is like Friends with Aliens. But the idea that something's coming here from a long way away and we find out and we're going to have a long time to prepare for it. Is it something like that? Who knows? But, yeah, bring it back down to Earth a little bit. Yeah, for sure. Sorry to the viewers if I went out there a little too far. Like I said, I'm out of my realm on there. But I just, you know, I've spent enough time down in Peru chasing this that I've had sleepless nights flabbergasted by this. Montserrat and Maria look real. Sebastian looks real. And there are scans where you can see, you know, that there are no animal bones inside these big ones. Good news, though, is, well, let's keep our fingers crossed, but Jesse Michaels is going to be funding, potentially, a new DNA test with, like, top-of-the-line colossal biosciences. This is a company that took genetic sequences, ancient genetic sequences with modern ones and created something that's similar to a dire wolf. Do you remember hearing about that? He was on the Joe Rogan podcast. Jesse Michaels is trying to get that lined up for them to do the testing on these mummies, which would be incredible. Because, you know, if they come back and start saying, no, there's something seriously interesting here, well, then where do we go from there, right? That would make headlines, too. Not some lab in Europe or Canada or wherever they sent the first DNA, but this colossal bioscience that a lot of people are aware of. This guy's been on Joe Rogan. And he'd probably go back to Rogan after that. That would make headlines. And I made a prediction back, I think, in June this last year. I just felt it in my bones. I said, guys, this Nazca Mummies thing is about to have its Wave 3. Wave 1 was the press conference in Mexico, and then it kind of died down, right? And then that's Wave 2, the died down. And then Wave 3 is about to go parabolic on interest in this by the end of Q4 2025 into 2026. And I think I'm right on that. Like, it just felt like the public is about to demand answers for what the heck is going on down in Peru. So shout out to Jesse Michaels for that really intriguing documentary. I got the vibe that he's – go ahead. Yeah, just on that, you make a really good point. It needs money. It needs sway. It needs power. It needs people with interest and influence, which Jesse Michaels and his connections have, to really push this ball down the line and get that done. I totally appreciate the frustration that a lot of folks have that unless it's done in the United States and it doesn't count. And I think there's an idea that because this has been discovered in South America, it's lesser. But I think that would be the case generally. If these had been discovered in Scotland or Ireland or Italy or wherever else, I think it would have been very similar. We need to get U.S. scientists on this for whatever reason. Some of the best labs, I get that, and the best folks are in these other countries. Not that they're not, you know, throughout the world. However, there just seems to be a stigma unless it comes from the States. But given the proximity to the States, the frustration has been, can we just get these things over the border or some good samples and let's test them? You know, if these are cake, we'll find out they're cake. However, if they're not cake and they are something, you know, worth looking into, then we should be able to discover that. And that doesn't seem like it's too far away now. Similar to, like, the Skinwalker Ranch phenomenon. So many folks will say the mesa at Skinwalker Ranch is fascinating. What's under the ground? And they're demanding Brandon Fugel and co just dig up the ground and blow up the mesa. There's a lot of challenges that come around with that as well. A lot of them. It's not just as easy as doing that. But perhaps what we have here is it is a little bit easier to get this done. And if Jesse and co can science the shit out of this stuff, that would certainly help move things forward. And I wonder, we've not talked about it too much, but you mentioned, you know, the raid and whatnot that happened with these bodies. The Peruvian government has been involved with this for some time, trying to make light of the situation. I've seen them refuse to answer questions and laugh derisedly, depending on who is representing the government or the scientists at the time, on this to dismiss it. And again, those clips, people will see that in the news. People will see that online. The general public can go, well, they're laughing at it. There's nothing to this. However, do you feel the pushback from the Peruvian government and the Ministry of Culture and their missteps along the way signals there may be something to this? Or is it fair enough to say they believe these may be the part bodies of human beings and they just want those back? Yeah. So let's just give them the benefit of the doubt for a moment. If these are fakes, then someone's going to jail. Well, like they've manipulated bodies, you know, if these are fakes. So the Ministry of Culture would rightfully be very interested in that. It's clear these are old. It's very clear these are old. Like these aren't like recently dug up bodies. These are old bodies. So it makes sense that the Ministry of Culture would want to get involved. That being said, they were being unfair. The head of the Ministry of Culture at one point, and I don't think he's the head anymore, called Joe Espantia a clown on TV and said that the big one was a doll. The big mummy Maria was a doll, just like the dolls from the airport. And that's not true. Maria is not a doll. Maybe Maria has manipulations. But Maria is a, was at one point a living being. Maybe the hands have been manipulated, but definitely was a living human or humanoid, whatever. So now it appears they're cooperating more. At one point, I think about half a year ago, Ike University temporarily surrendered Maria into the care of the Ministry of Culture. So the Ministry of Culture could do some scans and the Ministry of Culture came back and, you know, presented those scans online, basically without any conclusions. And then gave Maria back to the University of Ica. So there's been good faith going back, which shows some cooperation. And actually, a lot of that comes from the turning point, say what you want about Jaime Moussin, but when he's put out a lawsuit against the Peruvian government for what happened with the press conference, and, you know, I guess he's saying they slandered him. That's actually when things kind of like chilled out a little bit. I think they decided to start, I don't know if cooperation is the right word. I don't know if they were afraid of that lawsuit. But, yeah, so that's actually kind of when things turned a little bit. Can we just touch on Jaime then? Someone I've spoke about on the podcast a few times as different things have come up. The lawsuit, correct me if I'm wrong, $300 million lawsuit? Yeah, in the hundreds of millions. Yes. In the hundreds of millions. I'm confident it's $300 million, okay? That's a hell of a slander for Jaime to go for. But get more power to him if he thinks that's right, and maybe it's just the strength of his conviction. I've stated before, Will, I've never spoken to Jaime. Not yet. Perhaps there's a time down the line where we can get two wonderful accents together on this podcast, and AI can help clean them up. You should. He actually speaks pretty good English. I've spoke to him a number of times. He speaks better English than I do. I've heard him a few times on the late Howard Hughes show as well back in the day. The issue for me with Jaime is that he seems, and I'm going to use the analogy I said to you, Will, before we recorded. He seems the type, and this is just an analogy, folks, that would tell a woman he loved her on the first date, just getting so excited and so head over heels so quickly at the first sign of any chemistry. And I feel there may be an element of that, and I mean this in the most respectful way, when it comes to Jaime's involvement with anything in the UFO, extraterrestrial, NHI realm, that he gets so involved so quickly, like a kid at Christmas, that he can't see the wood for the trees. And there have been examples many times over of Jaime being involved in things that have ended up being a hoax. There's the Gaia Association that comes along with it, which will sensationalize a lot of content. They do have a lot of sensationalized content on their platform. If you enjoy that, wonderful, go for it. However, Jaime's involvement in this, he wasn't there from the beginning. I know that. He came along, and I believe with him comes some money, comes some backing, comes some influence with himself and his production, and the Gaia body behind it as well, which allows them to do certain things. But with that association comes, I think, a lot of stigma as well. And there's only so many times the boy who cried wolf can cry wolf before people don't come listening anymore. And I've stated before, Will, and I'll just repeat this for yourself, I think there may have been, I don't know if more progress is fair, there may have been a different level of progress to this and a different way forward had Jaime and Gaia and the Hollywood Disclosure folks not got involved with this. Yeah, so without a doubt, and by the way, I personally, like on a personal level, like Jaime, he was really nice to me when I was just down there with an iPhone. He did two interviews with me, one on scene when the, I'll tell you some funny stories and then I'll respond to what you said. Like when the Nazca Mommy's press conference raid happened, he was like talking in Spanish to like legit Peruvian, like mainstream reporters. And I just, I just kind of whispered in his ear, like Jaime, can you please give us a statement for the English audience? He stopped what he was doing, turned to me with my iPhone and just starts going off in English about how, you know, there's a cover up happening, all this stuff. So I always appreciated that about Jaime because that clip, that clip made rounds. So shout out to Jaime for that. But yes, undoubtedly, the number one thing people say when you bring up the Nazca Mummies when they're skeptical is Jaime Mossand's involved. So it's, it's fake. So, you know, that's, that's a true thing that you said when it, when you said it's muddied the waters a little bit. Does that mean Jaime is wrong this time? There's some, there's some interesting things. And on that note, I just want to say, if these end up being proved a hoax, which I still think is more likely than the proponents want to admit. If that's true, if that's the case, I hope there is not too much backlash on the proponents. These things are weird. There are anomalies that need to be explained. The osseal integration that we talked about, like, if that's true, how do you explain that? I, I will not. And I know that there's been some obvious hoax that he's, that he's fell for. But on this one in particular, if they ever become a hoax, I'm going to be there. I'm not going to judge anyone that was involved because I'll tell you right now, there's been weeks where I'm like, oh, wow, they're real. Like, I've had moments where I'm like, I think, I think they're real. And then I see the giant head and I'm like, why isn't there scans of that? You know, and then I hear about the money involved. And, you know, I was warned by locals down in Ica, like, don't snoop around too much. It's not safe. Like, there's a dark element to this that not a lot of people talk about. And so, man, it's a mess. It's a crazy story. And on the flip side of that, if these somehow became, you know, were proven to be real, I hope the proponents take their victory lap. And I hope we can get to the bottom of that soon. And Jesse Michaels, like I said, I'm really looking forward to seeing what he can stir up with this possible DNA test. You know, for me, Will, and we've talked about both of the potentials, but that middle one, I think, for me, is a very interesting place to fall down on. So you've got the idea that they're, I joked about them being, you know, Is It Cake? You know, that great Netflix show where Is It Cake? And if you've seen the new series of Always Sunny in Philadelphia, folks, the Is It Cake moment is absolutely sensational. Oh, I haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen it yet. I'm a big fan. I'm a big fan. I won't spoil it then, but phenomenal. You know, one of the great moments in all the series. So you've got the idea that these are just straight up fake and all the connotations that come with that we've spoke about. You've got the idea on the extreme that these are true NHI beings. I don't think we have to go into the connotations of that. You know, that is what it is. What about that middle ground where these aren't, these are originally human, but they are some kind of tribute to something else. And you will know better than I do that there are examples of this throughout history where there are tributes to gods or other beings and there are skull elongations. Different things happen to human bodies to manipulate. But is it a chance that we're seeing something here that potentially leads to some kind of disclosure down the line, but not in the way that these things are directly non-human? Yes, but I think that no matter what that disclosure is, maybe it's some ancient ritual like we talked about or whatever, you're still going to have, in the way that the internet works today, you're still going to have camps on all sides that are saying, no, that's not right. They're aliens from space or they're aliens or they're beings from underground in the earth in Agartha, you know, or whatever. Like there's so many, so many theories on this. So just a couple of things on the metal. I hope I answered your question there. Yeah, I'll take that. This is from Jesse Michaels, his documentary. On the big ones, they found two very, very rare metals. And sorry, I'm just trying to make sure I get this right here. No, that's okay. So one of them is osmium, which is roughly 1,500 times rarer than gold and was found in the 19th century. So the 1800s, like humans, we didn't really know about it until the 1800s. And same thing with the other one, cadmium, very rare and found in the 1800s. Some of these, like if you look at Montserrat, have these metallic implants on their head. And I'm assuming that's covering a trepidated hole. So have you ever heard of trepidation before? Trepidation in the ancient times, it was where they would put little holes in the back of the skull normally. I've never really seen it in the front. But holes in the back of the skull, maybe the top, I guess in some way to relieve pressure. And oddly enough, this was done all over the ancient world. You can see it in Spain with the Celts and the Carthaginians. They did trepidation. The Chachapoyas did it in northern Peru. The Inca did it in Peru. And you can actually find actual mummies with elongated skulls in museums in, I believe, Cusco. Derek Olson was talking to me about this from the Megalithic Marvels podcast. And they have these metallic implants on their head. I assume over these trepidated holes. And Montserrat and several of the others also have these. And they don't look like they were recently placed there. It's kind of the same situation. It looks like it's all fused together. And so that's really interesting. Now, did they find that in a grave and say, oh, this is the perfect one to Frankenstein our... I don't know. It doesn't... My first gut instinct is like, you know, show me the evidence of that. Because they look real. They look very real. The skulls are really weird. Montserrat's face in the scans. It looks different than Maria's face in many ways. Like, tridactyls.org. I want everybody to go there and just look at the scans for yourself. It's pretty incredible. And then I'm going to have a video on Tuesday coming out. Tuesday, August... What would that be? 19th. That's going to cover all this. And I'm going to have a lot of visuals as well. And I'll send you those visuals too. Yeah. But please go and check that out. And hopefully you can give this a mention. And there might be a little bit of cross-pollination there between the audiences. Gotcha. Definitely go and check that one out, folks. What I'll do, Will, is let's dive into some listener questions then, I think, at this point. Which I'll touch on and expand on some of the points we've made so far. If you're listening, folks, on the free feeds, thank you. There will be a part two with listener questions. If you're on any of the paid feeds, including the trials and free trials and whatnot, it'll just carry on with the show. Very quickly, Will, just in case folks are leaving us here for a couple of days, how can folks find your channel, your work, and everything like that? Yeah, I'm on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, even TikTok. At Incred History. I-N-C-R-E-D History. My name is Incredible History, but that's my tag. And I just made that generic kind of history name because I was interested in doing history. And it's kind of taken off. People are paying attention to what I have to say, I guess. And, you know, I just try my best. And I'm interested in all the mysteries of history. Would love to have you come check out my channel. And, yeah, I appreciate you having me here, Andy. Awesome. Well, those links will be in the description as well, folks. But if you check out any of the free trials or sign up to the podcast, that would be much appreciated in a paid way. If not, listen to the adverts. All helps out. Same for Will's channel as well. But otherwise, we'll carry on with the conversation, Will, and dive into some listener questions. That is all for part one. Part two will be out in the next couple of days. You can listen to this episode already in full, ad-free, and with no sponsors for less than the price of a coffee. If you head on over to Patreon or Apple, you can subscribe to the podcast for less than the price of a coffee or take up the two weeks free trial that are available on those platforms. You can head on over to Spotify and search That UFO Podcast Premium and get access to this episode in full. No adverts, no sponsorships, and also with some extra bonus content as well. Thanks for listening, folks.