“The Program” with Director James Fox

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Check the carton for the farm name, pop it into vitalfarms.com slash farm, and boom, you're looking at the pasture. So next time you're in the store, look for the black carton in the egg aisle and visit vitalfarms.com to learn more. Vital Farms. Good eggs. No shortcuts. Astonishing Legends Network. Listen to the Astonishing Junk Drawer exclusively at patreon.com slash astonishing legends. Pandemonium, riots. The p-hats living together. I am going to be fired by Forrest, probably, because we gave Ed the night off. All this technology can be weaponized, and then we're talking about the ultimate weapon on the Earth. And that was all tied to Bob Bigelow and Bigelow Aerospace. Highlighter and regular pen? I don't think so, Forrest. I would know about it. This upends everything. This breaks the world. And what was allowed to be in the book is what he knows he can safely say. Did you ask it if it believes in aliens? Astonishing Legends would like to thank Hymns, First Leaf, BetterHelp, Squarespace, our contributors at patreon.com, and you, our listeners, for making tonight's show possible. In just two days, on December 16th, 2024, documentary filmmaker James Fox will release his latest groundbreaking work, The Program. We first mentioned Fox on our show back in 2020, but he's been a prolific documentary filmmaker since 2003, well before we even got started. His first film, Out of the Blue, caught the attention of the UFO and UAP community immediately. He followed that project with, I Know What I Saw, which we had the good fortune of a listener bringing to our attention years ago. In this film, James talks to several high-profile witnesses and further thrusts the UAP phenomena into the mainstream. Then, almost exactly seven years ago, in 2017, the New York Times published its famous front-page above-the-fold article titled, Glowing Auras and Black Money, The Pentagon's Mysterious UFO Program. At that point, the mainstream media effectively pushed the world at large into the deep end of the UAP pool, and a few weeks later, Astonishing Legends published a two-part series based on that article that we called, Imminent Disclosure, with a question mark at the end of it. We thought maybe something was finally about to happen. In the intervening time, Mr. Fox continued tilting at the Disclosure windmills by producing two of his most poignant works to date, 2020's The Phenomenon and 2022's Moment of Contact. The Phenomenon examined 70 years of government UFO investigations, featuring interviews with figures like former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. It explored historical cases such as the 1561 Nuremberg incident and delved into Project Blue Book and the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, which was introduced to the world in that New York Times article. Moment of Contact investigated the 1996 Virginia, Brazil UFO crash. One of the most compelling eyewitness accounts of alien beings in human history, and Fox's team leaves no stone unturned while looking into the veracity of what happened, talking to eyewitnesses and even risking their lives to get the story. Now, with the program, Fox goes behind recent UIP hearings, speaking with congresspersons and military officials about a truth that can no longer be ignored. The film suggests that disclosure may now be inevitable, regardless of the official stance. Folks, we have seen this film, and it is eye-opening. Tonight, we sit down with James Fox to discuss his remarkable career, his latest film, and his thoughts on the future of UFO UAP disclosure. Welcome back to Astonishing Legends. I'm Scott Philbrook, and this is Forrest Burgess. He's speaking a language I don't know, but I'm understanding every word he says. U.S. Air Force Master Sergeant Jason Sands to James Fox in the program. Join us tonight as we discuss James Fox's latest documentary, The Program, and where he thinks disclosure is going next. And we're back. That we are, folks. 2024 is coming to a close, and we're super excited about tonight's show, so we'll keep this very brief. This is our second-to-last show of the year. Our last one will be the fifth year of the astonishing All-Star Holiday Party, with our returning guests, Paul Gledhill, Micah Hanks, Jim Harreld, Richard Haddam, Allison Jornlin, Tess Feifel, Ed Vecola, Chris Kulari, and Miranda Merrick. And not only is it the fifth All-Star Holiday Special, it's also our 300th episode of Astonishing Legends. Well, we couldn't have planned that. I know. We weren't even thinking about it. We timed out that way. Right at the end of the year. Well, no matter what number it is, it's going to be a blast, because it always is. So whip up some eggnog or hot chocolate and sit down by the fire and join us. And that show will drop on December 23rd, 2024. I can't wait. Well, we set James up pretty well in the cold open, and we can't wait to talk to him. So let's dive into our discussion. Welcome to the show, Mr. Fox. Pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me. We've been fans of yours for a long time, but I just was gobsmacked with Moment of Contact. I've seen it three times. I'll probably watch it again this weekend. I just, I was, when it came out, I was like, we gotta, we gotta get this guy. But I could not figure out how to get in touch with you. We had to wait for a new production. Yeah, so we were so glad to hear from your publicist that, you know, would you be willing to come on? So we're just so glad that you're here. And also, the program is just amazing. Your back catalog is amazing. The work you're doing is so cool. So why don't we start a little bit with a little bit of that background? I mean, you've made a lot of films, and a lot of them have been focused on UAP, but you also did the one on the Deepwater Horizon, which I have not seen. But that incident, obviously, is a standout thing in my mind. What brought you into documentary filmmaking, and specifically, what bent you so far towards UAP? Oh, well, thanks for the intro. I was gonna say, I've had my life threatened on two different film projects. And one of them was with Deepwater Horizon. It's called Pretty Slick. And I had a, the guy, head of fisheries. It was either all of Alabama or Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi. But he was head of the fisheries. And he had photographic evidence of the fish that had been swimming around and the CREXIT and oil that BP was sinking into the ocean, into the Gulf, showing these abscesses and abnormal growths. And just, oh, man. Yeah. And he said to me, you reveal my identity, boy. I'll hunt you down and split your throat. Do we have an understanding? I said, yes, sir. He was not, I was not kidding. Yeah. I was like, oh, my God. He was cool, but he was letting me know. Like, this is not a joke. Like, you reveal my identity, and there are gonna be serious consequences. Wow. And making a moment of contact, I probably came as close as ever as getting shot right in the face. Well, that one's on film. That moment is just, yeah. That is just startling. And I'm definitely, I wanna focus on the program tonight, but before we finish, and if we manage our time properly, I do have a couple of questions about Varginia, so. But, yeah. Anyway. That was scary. That was scary when you went out there, when you guys went out there, your whole crew and everything. In retrospect, I'm looking over at the audio guy, D, who obviously is Portuguese. He understood. He had headphones, and he had the boom mic. Yeah. And you could see him in the production kind of step behind the wall a little bit. Because he knows exactly what's being said. Right, right. Nobody's telling me. Yeah, you're like, wait, where's he going? Well, it's gonna start flying. Yeah, it was pretty nuts. Well, before we go a little further, now, obviously, Forrest and I have seen it, but why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about the program and what it's about? I did the phenomenon, right? Yes. The phenomenon touched on crash materials, touched on lightly Roswell, and there's some discussion among Christopher Mellon that if we had such materials, that they're tucked away, hidden, blah, blah, blah. So in the fact that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said, what's been revealed is only the tip of the iceberg, everything else has been, the vast majority of evidence, hasn't seen the light of day, right? So you kind of left off there. And then naturally, I think the program would have followed the phenomenon. But I paused and went back to that crash retrieval case, which a lot of people were trying to discourage me from doing because I went from having unprecedented, first time ever access to members of the Senate and politicians and intel people. And people were very concerned that I was going to tarnish my reputation by focusing in on a case where allegedly live aliens are running to the town and getting captured. And it's just too crazy, right? Yes. I remember making that decision like, well, I'm going to put my 25 plus year reputation on the line for this because I really believe the witnesses that I've met with personally, right? Right. So by the time I got around to the program, this current production, there had been a lot that had happened. From when I'd finished the phenomenon to producing Moment of Contact, that two-year gap, I was pretty much super focused on getting the Moment of Contact completed and out into the world. And it was particularly challenging because I've never done a film in a foreign language, right? Right. And I know, I remember my distributor at the time, which ended up ripping me off blind. They were very concerned about, you know, a foreign language. Americans don't like to read subtitles. I don't like to read subtitles. So I remember having that in the back of my mind, like really focusing on getting in the field and speaking as much English as I possibly could, translated, blah, blah, blah. So by the time I came around to producing the program, I was having to play a little bit of catch up because a lot had gone down. Legislation, we were on the eve of the first congressional hearing in over 50 years with Andre Carson. And there was all this legislation that was written, the NDAA for 2022, 2023 that was signed. And talking about crash retrievals and, you know, the legacy program stuff. I mean, wow, you know, right there in black and white. So it was kind of like a personal journey for me in the sense that I left off with the phenomenon. I delved into a crash retrieval thing where I discovered at the 11th hour that the Americans were involved because the flight control officer, you know, had come forward while the last visit I was in filming in Brazil, he came in and revealed the fact that he saw the USAF, the United States Air Force plane, come in without Brazilian government authorization and land in Campinas. Two helicopters get out, fly to Virginia, put some stuff in there, back, load the plane, back to the United States, right? It's like, wow. So the United States was involved. So when I started the program and all this stuff is happening, it's like, wow, this is directly related to crash retrieval. We're talking about legacy program. We're talking about crash retrieval. We're talking about reverse engineering. So this is right up my alley, like, you know, and then six months, five months after the film came out, you had the congressional hearing with David Grush testifying as to there being a crash retrieval program. So it was very personal to me, right? So I really wanted to capture that moment in history and make it, condense it in a way that the mainstream folks could really digest what's been going on and how we got to where we are today, right? Because if you know nothing about crash retrieval or very little about Roswell, David Grush is going to come and testify in open congressional hearings under oath and you're mainstream media. You're going to look at that and go, yeah, this is crazy, right? Right. Because you don't really have the background to understand, like, how we got there. Right. I mean, it was tough even for me to kind of somewhat process because you've got this high-level intelligence officer who's testifying under oath and revealing some stuff that's like, whoa, this is incredible, right? Yeah. So anyway, it was a personal investigation. It was me in the field trying to understand what was happening behind the scenes, in front of the scenes. I was learning as I was going along. When you produce something like this, I know you're talking to so many congresspersons and military officials who are obviously having, and also private sector scientists like Dr. Nolan who have all these concerns, these clearance concerns. Do you have to worry about that? Like, when you're producing this, do you have to submit it or anything? Or it's just all on your interview subjects to be on their toes about that stuff? This is probably the first time, I mean, obviously there was some sensitive stuff in a moment of contact, but that primarily was either hidden by not revealing the identity of the individual. But this is probably the first production I've done where I've learned things that I cannot talk about publicly at all. I can't even, I remember at one point asking this individual, can I even say that I heard it from someone? No, no, you cannot do that. So I've had to, I feel incredibly privileged that I've gotten some information. And the fact that I can't share it, it doesn't make it that great. And that was a great question that you asked. You were like, does it make you uncomfortable? I can't remember you asked Dr. Nolan that or somebody, does it make you uncomfortable to know these things you can't tell us? And this was that, you just answered a question that I also had down here for you was like, now are you that person? If you becoming that person, I have to be envious. You know, we're acquainted with Jeremy Corbell as well. And every time I'm ever texting with him or what I'm just like, God, I wish I knew what he knew. And now I'm wishing I knew what you knew. And that's the next thing is, how is it they can tell you, I get that you can't say it publicly, but why don't they get in trouble even for just relaying it to another person who doesn't have clearance? Well, I'm sure they probably would. Okay, because it's a secret, basically. I'm sure they would. I mean, I had one individual say, I just violated XYZ. Like, this is real. I mean, it's stuff that I kind of suspected, right? But it's details to cases that I'd heard that that was what really got me. The details to some cases that, you know, these individuals had seen firsthand was a little shocking for me, right? Yeah. That's like one thing to kind of suspect it or uncover certain things in the field, right? I've been investigating Roswell on and off over the decades. The Zamora incident too, right? Great case. Yeah. You know, great case. I'm convinced that Lonnie, one of my biggest regrets, I didn't get to him before he died. Yeah. He died in like 2008 and I was in his neck of the woods in 2007, but I didn't know. Yeah, I think he had some sort of telepathic communication when he made eye contact with one of those creatures. But anyway, I digress. Yeah. Well, in a follow-up question, there seems to be levels of knowledge and belief with this throughout the whole spectrum here. And is there a point though? Are you glad that you have found out the details that you have? And then do you think that there's a level where you don't want to know, like a lot of folks? Gosh, you know, I do want to know. Even if it's scary, I do want to know. Somebody was just telling me the other day that I was like, well, how many people do you think on the planet have the bigger picture? Yeah. I don't know if anybody has the whole picture, but this individual is like, I would say under 20. Wow. They seemed pretty confident about it, you know? And then all that this individual said was that it was a little scary. I wish I would have pried a little harder to know what's scary. Yeah. Are we someone's Petri dish? Who knows? I don't know. I mean, I'd like to know. It's a question of which lab are we in? Which lab? Are we in the lab where they're torturing them or are we in the lab where they're just trying to keep us alive and happy and observe us, you know? Are they walking among us, you know? Yeah. I've had people that seem to be in a position to know that told me that unequivocally and one of those people was, he didn't tell me not to talk about it, was Robert Bigelow. Bigelow, yeah. I have questions about him too as well. And look, you know, are people feeding me disinformation? Maybe they are. Right, right. You have to be open to that too. 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There will come a point when it will mature, right? Yeah. My cell phone is a mature technology at this point. How far are we from that point with quantum? By 2029, we'll build the first fault-tolerant quantum computer. That is one that can run a very, very large, large problem. To learn how IBM is building the future of computing, visit ibm.com slash quantum. This is Sarah Spain from Good Game with Sarah Spain, brought to you in part by Vital Farms. Let's talk eggs. Vital Farms pasture-raised eggs to be exact. My favorites. The only kind I've got in my fridge. No joke. And here's why. These aren't your average eggs. The hens live on open pastures with fresh air and sunshine all year long. They forage on local grasses and stretch their wings. They're living their best life. That care really shows in the taste. I love mine scrambled with a little butter or whipped up into a fancy frittata. And here's something most people don't know. 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Do you think that, because I kind of feel this way, is that the wooest of the woo information is out there in various forms and it's up to the individual to believe it or not, but do you think then that the big picture has already mostly been spilled or it's out there and it's just not accepted by most because some of it is pretty upsetting and disturbing and wrecks the world or potentially. And so do you think it's out there but we just choose not to believe it and then, I mean, what else could there, I mean, how much more mind-blowing could some of this stuff be? Yeah, you know, I've heard so many stories over the decades, you know, they're walking among us, you know, stranger in the Pentagon, like, we've made contact, we've been infiltrated, they're living underground, there's reptilians, there's these, there's those. It's like, okay, well, one of the things that I've grown to accept and that is, don't make a quick judgment just because something sounds so outlandish. I've done that many times where I've completely dismissed stuff, case in point, Rua, Virginia, even Socorro, you know. Yeah, in Moment of Contact, I seem to remember, you had, you were like, I had skeptical moments about this until you got there. I had skeptical moments for a decade on that case. Yeah. Absolutely. I was like, this is possible. There's no way aliens could be walking around a town in broad daylight and like the whole world not know about it. Right, right. It is my favorite to date film about that kind of encounter, honestly. That's a really good case, isn't it? Yeah, it is fascinating. I remember when I finished the film, one of my old co-producers of Out of the Blue, this guy, Tim Coleman, we were kicking around. I always draft broad strokes with, all right, what are our objectives going to be with this next film project? Very early on, like, hey, what about this case? What about that? We're kicking around for Out of the Blue. And he goes, oh, mate, he's British. Oh, mate, this is case in Brazil. It's absolutely phenomenal. This UFO crashed and these aliens walking around the town. I looked at him and I thought, I picked the wrong partner. I really did. I was like, you were like, oh, this guy's too far. There's a nut job. And I just was like, over my dead body, we're going to cover that case. No way. And I completely denied him. Fast forward 10, 15, whatever years it was. Yeah, maybe 20. I don't know. Yeah. He calls me up. He's like, bloody hell, mate, I told you about that case in the 90s. And I said, yes, I did. He goes, and you bloody well didn't believe me. I said, no, I did not. Yeah. I said, I apologize. I said, I'll tell you what, I'm going to give you a special thanks in the credits. I gave him a special thanks. And he hung up on you. No, he was happy. He's happy, but, you know. Do you think that works to their favor, the gatekeepers, and that some of this is so crazy that they don't really have to worry about it getting out there because it's just unbelievable and most people won't. And you're going to have people make enough stuff anyway. they're controlling that stigma. Hey, look, I remember when I was 18, I dated this girl named Rachel Miller. She was 19. And she's like, oh, my previous boyfriend was really into UFOs. And I was like, why would you date a guy who's into UFOs? What? And I, I remember my opinion of her just sank. Like, right. Really like, God. I mean, I had a really hard time letting that one go. I just started to, tried to put it out of my mind that she dated a guy into UFOs. What? And why was I programmed to think that way? Why wouldn't I have just been curious? Like, oh, really? Well, what was he interested in? Are there any particular cases? Is there, nope, just cut it right off. Well, it's guilt by association. And as you were saying, I think before we started rolling, that you get a lot of flack just having talked to certain people because, and it even doesn't have to do with the UFO case. It could be political or spiritual, religious, some aspect of their personality. Other people don't like, it's like, oh, you talked to so-and-so? Well, yeah, why'd you do that? And then your credibility is shot. I mentioned one person or I hugged that person or I include this other person or I go on this show or I go on Fox or I go on CNN. I get flack from everybody all the time. And I'm sorry, like, you know, we need to work together, put down our differences, focus on a common objective. We're stronger together than we are divided. Well, that brings to mind something I wanted to ask you about and I think that's a really valid point. By the way, there's so much value in you going on all these different platforms regardless of where people are at with them because I think that gets the message out wider, which is what needs to happen. Absolutely. And it's a nonpartisan issue. Exactly. That was the next thing I was going to say and one of the things that is so clear from the program and people, there's people that aren't really paying attention here because I watched the most recent hearing live on whatever feed it was on YouTube. I can't remember if it was through C-SPAN or whatever. At the height of it being on and this is the one where they're talking about Immaculate Constellation and all that stuff, there was 16,000 people watching and I was just like, where is everybody? And so, it seems like a lot of folks, even ones that are like tangentially interested in this, they're just waiting for the headline to be summed up by whatever mainstream news source that they're into but it's crazy to me that the whole world isn't watching those hearings but then on top of that, the other thing that's super obvious and very obvious in the program is the bipartisan nature of everyone in Congress who's trying to get to the bottom of this and it's not just people in the middle, it's like far, far left folks and far, far right folks. You got Adam Schiff over here, you got Birchett on the other, couldn't be two more different politicians. They're right down the middle on this along with all the other ones at the hearing like Nancy Mason, everybody is involved and it's crazy to me that as divided as the country is right now politically that more people aren't paying attention to that. It's fantastic and I love that. I mean, Tim Birchett, whatever side of the fence you're on, that guy is solid. He oozes credibility and honesty and he's, I love the guy. You cannot love him. It's like Bernie Sanders. Right. I even have people on the far right like, I don't care man, Bernie Sanders, far left, love the guy. He's a solid, I get a good vibe from that guy. Right. Same thing with Tim Birchett. Tim Birchett is one of the nice, most wholesome politicians I've ever met. Love being with the guy. Went in for a second interview. Congress got out early. I got a message from one of his handlers and they're like, oh yeah, we're going to have to go ahead and postpone the interview because of X, Y, and Z and he's going to have to fly back to Tennessee. I was like, gosh, I drove all the way. Yeah. Here, I got the whole camera crew. I hired this guy and she goes, oh my gosh, all right, let me talk to him. He stays in his office till after 10 p.m. at night just to meet with me and make good on his commitment to give me that interview. Oh, wow. Finished the interview, 10 o'clock at night. The guy's probably up for 16 hours. Yeah. Right? Yeah. 10 o'clock at night and then he's got this skateboard that he had made for part of a, yeah, he made it by hand and he was going to auction it off for his campaign fund. At the end, he goes, well, let's go try the skateboard out. I was like, now? He goes, yeah, come on. So we take the skateboard out in the halls of Congress and we're both riding the skateboard. No way. I was like, this has got to be the coolest thing I've ever done. I'm riding the skateboard. That's amazing. It was really cool. I got a video of it. I'll probably release it at some point provided he's okay with it. Yeah. Isn't that fun? Yeah, that's amazing. He's a nice, genuine guy. Really nice guy. And following that, yeah, it's that, well, first of all, we've been waiting a long time to talk with you and one of the reasons is that Scott and I have come to learn, you know, the past 15, 20 years in this genre and in this field, you really start to learn that it's a lot of it's personality driven and personality based on what you get to believe, who you give credibility to, who could lose credibility and there are a few notable figures who've kind of risen above that and I would say are a little bit beyond reproach and one of them is yourself, sir. And there's a few other people, George Knapp and they seem to, yeah, they get some criticism here and there and people don't disagree but they're not really, yeah, their baby's not thrown out with the bathwater of their ideas. And Lord knows I've made some stupid mistakes over the years. Well, certainly but I think, what do you think is it about your approach and the way you tackle and handle these subjects and how you interview people and what the finished product is like that keeps you on that level where people don't really mess with you as Scott was saying. They just, you're given a lot of free reign to put this stuff out there without, because there are so many other controversial figures as we know where they'll come up with their ideas and it's basically the message is good, the messenger is flawed. So what is it about your approach you think that has kept you on this level of credibility? Well, I appreciate that. I would say one thing is that for the 80% of my so-called career in making these documentaries, I would have made more flipping burgers. Yeah. Well, really, if you calculate the amount of time, you know, parking cars, painting houses, doing construction work, working at hotels, just to keep going, doing what I love, because I'm just really curious, you know, and I do it for free. Like I, matter of fact, I work jobs just to do this, right? Yeah. And it wasn't ever about the money for me. I just thought that, wow, there's a real story here and that we all have a right to know what's going on, myself included. I'm also kind of skeptical too. I don't just believe things because someone says it. I really will dig into a story. I've dug into Roswell, dug into Varginia, dug into Socorro, Rua, you know, a number of the cases that I've personally investigated, the Phoenix Lights. I always think of like the skeptic in the seat, you know, I'm not trying to prove one way or the other, you know, because you can't, right? I can't prove that Varginia happened because I don't have the bodies and I don't have the craft. I can't prove that Roswell happened. I can't prove that Rua Zimbabwe, the landing school and aerial school in 1994, but I can't, put together a pretty solid case to sway a jury that something truly inexplicable did take place. So I try to like think about it. I try to approach this topic with that regard and try to keep an open mind, try to provide a platform to allow the people that were there, not the people that were not there, the people that were there to say what they saw and try not to draw any definitive conclusions myself. That's a formula that I've been applying to my films since I started and I think that's a formula that has worked for me. And anybody who says they know everything that's going on, I find that hard to believe. Yeah. Because the more I know, the more I realize I don't know. When everything is so compartmentalized and siloed and whatever, like you say. I know less today than I did 30 years ago. Yeah, I know. I know. There's always more questions. Yeah, as we say, you hopefully learn to ask better questions. Yeah, there's that too. There's that too. On your knowledge. But I would say that sounds a lot like the approach of Art Bell and why he was so beloved is that he presented, he was curious, he let people tell their stories, but he kept an even keel with it. I think it was easier to stick with him when he doesn't go off and takes a huge detour. But then again, we've seen people that we know and trust that at some point have had to take that detour to stay true to themselves and you know you're going to lose followers. You're going to lose some interest, but you seem to have maintained that. I'm going to take a hit on this film. I know people are going to question why I included Jason Sands. There's a lot of stuff that I did behind the scenes. That was my favorite segment. Yeah, I thought very carefully about it. You know, I knew that people were going to give me, I know that Mick West is going to come after me. Of course he is, rightfully so. Right. Right, that's what he does. Right. And I can't prove that it happened. Right. However, I did as much due diligence as I could possibly do. I got the names of the other witnesses. Right. Reached out to them, had a result. That were with Sergeant Sands? Because he mentioned the woman in the seat and then a gentleman in the back, right? Yep. So I got all their names. Yeah. I reached out through an intel guy that will remain nameless that found the person that allegedly debriefed all of them right after the incident. Oh, wow. That individual was not willing to confirm or deny on or off the record, which was frustrating. Right. But that individual didn't say, hey, it didn't happen or you're chasing the wrong, you know, uh-uh. You know, we got the leaked video from three days prior, right? So we have a location. Okay. We have a date. I'm so glad you said that. So this was, this is a question I want to, firstly, I had a question I meant to ask you before we started rolling, but it's obviously okay, was if we could talk about that incident because we don't want to spoil anything that, you know, and then the next question I had was about that footage because we, you know, for folks that are watching or listening to us, we got the screener just the day before we're talking to James here. So we only had a chance to watch it once and normally I would have watched it many more times. One of my questions was after watching it was whether or not that footage correlated with the, or was closely correlated with the actual incident that Sergeant Sands mentioned. And maybe just briefly you could tell our listeners what Sergeant Sands contends. So what we do know that could be proved in a court of law is that there was an unknown object flying in and around Nellis Test Range in the winter of 1994. An unknown object was picked up via camera or their radar camera and filmed. And you hear the chatter, I don't know, at least four, five, six people. What the hell are we looking at? What is that object? Totally unidentified and unknown. That leaked out. We got our hands on that. Three days later, Jason Sands, who's stationed nearby, we mentioned the whole thing in the film, Yes. is in a convoy on their way out to the range with Nellis Test Range. They weren't actually, I don't think they were inside Area 51 at the time, but they were on their way. Right. They describe an encounter with an object that matched the description of what they'd filmed just a couple days earlier. And they had a close, he reported on a close encounter of the third kind. But he didn't say like, you know, I was a blue alien. It was like, I saw this guy, I thought he was suffering from frostbite or some medical condition. Right, because his skin was pale. He clearly needed medical attention. Yeah. Didn't know what it was. And then when he got right up on it, my God, one of the people in the car screamed, he's got no ears. What am I looking at here? And he just describes the account and we did the best we could to verify it. But look, you know, again, I'm hoping that by reporting on this in the way that we did, that other people will come forward. Folks need to see the film because that's a really interesting account to see and to hear him talk about. One of the most interesting things about that is the implication because this being that he encountered, in addition to communicating with him verbally in a language he didn't understand, he understood it in his head, which is fascinating. But the other thing was that it was in a uniform, which implied that there was some sort of cooperation possibly going on between this being and the military, right? Or that was the image that he was projecting them to see. Right. Because one of the things that he described that he said didn't make any sense is that the uniform, after watching him run through the desert, didn't have a speck of dust on it anywhere. Yeah. And his shoes were completely still shiny. His shoes were completely shiny and clean, yeah. And everyone went into like a state of like trance. Yeah. Where they just were, you know, I'm not stating it as fact. I can say that Jason Sands' credentials checked out. He is who he says he is. I got military photographs of him doing what he says he was doing, where he says he was doing it. His military papers and all the people that I spoke to internally said that the guy checks out and he named secret program names that were highly classified and he verified those. So... How has he managed to stay out of trouble in telling that story? Here's what happened. He was going to tell it anonymously. He hadn't gone through the process called DOPSER. I can't remember what that acronym stands for. It's basically pre-publication of, you know, like if you're going to write a book or something. So he hadn't done that. He had gone in and met with congressional staffers and the like for... I think they hunted him down as part of the UAP task force or maybe it was Arrow and he had told his story behind the scenes. He was concerned about his safety and well-being and I met with him through Christopher Mellon in D.C. and I after having a couple of dinners with him I said look if you're concerned I'd be willing to put you on camera and we won't release it until you're ready until you've gone through whatever process you need to go through to get... to be able to come forward. And he's like you know what I would like that. So if anything happens to me it's sort of an insurance policy. So he came and sat down and we did an interview with him primarily you know from the back but I had one camera on his face just in case I don't know six months eight months later I'm constantly posting updates on X at James C. Fox just updates the film how things are going and I posted a production still and it had a clipboard in it and that clipboard had J. Sands written on it and if you zoomed in you could see it and so I accidentally revealed his identity and all hell was breaking loose oh my god and I was getting contacted by people on Signal what the hell this is like you're really hurting this guy I was like my god I'll take the post down and that was it he was out and there was all sorts of stuff going on behind the scenes on you know on Twitter or X or X or I say and I guess I don't know a couple weeks went by and he decided to kind of set the record straight and come forward which he did but that was on me it was all my fault but that caused him to apply through DOPSR for permission to broadcast certain aspects of what he can and cannot reveal and months went by the process took a long time and they basically came back and said you can talk about this this and this but you can't mention this one particular thing so during the interview I had mandatory I had to blurp out where he worked which you did which I had to do it so I beeped it out and everything else got approved by DOPSR and so there it is protein bars often feel like you're choosing between taste and nutrition if it tastes good you flip it over only to discover it's made with a whole paragraph of ingredients you've never heard of or artificial sweeteners are doing all the heavy lifting it's basically dessert in disguise you shouldn't have to choose between tasty and nutritious and that's what makes Aloha stand out Aloha protein bars nail the delicious and nutritious they're USDA organic and made with ingredients that actually grow somewhere it's their whole taste that grows philosophy plant-based ingredients grown in the ground thoughtfully sourced and built to keep you satisfied their peanut butter cup bar has 14 grams of protein 10 grams of fiber and only 5 grams of sugar which is wild considering how delicious it is made with no artificial ingredients or fillers just something that tastes good and works the way it's supposed to so if you're in the mood for something truly craveable and nutritious try any of Aloha's protein bars grab one at your local grocery store or head to aloha.com hello hello I'm Malcolm Gladwell host of Smart Talks with IBM I recently spoke with IBM's new director of research Jake Embatta we discussed his vision for the future of quantum computing at IBM research what we always do is answer what is the future of computing whether it's coming up with new algorithms coming up with better AI coming up with quantum or coming up with just how do different accelerators go together it's our DNA to answer the question of what is the future isn't it a perfect problem for IBM because you kind of need to have a legacy of building stuff yes building actual physical machines yeah it's why I came to IBM I wanted the experience the culture of building hard things that others have not done before where do you imagine we are in the timeline of this technology there will come a point when it will mature right yeah my cell phone is a mature technology at this point how far are we from that point with quantum by 2029 we'll build the first fault tolerant quantum computer that is one that can run a very very large large problem to learn how IBM is building the future of computing visit IBM.com slash quantum this is Sarah Spain from Good Game with Sarah Spain brought to you in part by Vital Farms let's talk eggs Vital Farms pasture raised eggs to be exact my favorites the only kind I've got in my fridge no joke and here's why these aren't your average eggs the hens live on open pastures with fresh air and sunshine all year long they forage on local grasses and stretch their wings they're living their best life that care really shows in the taste I love mine scrambled with a little butter or whipped up into a fancy frittata and here's something most people don't know you can trace your eggs back to the farm they came from seriously side of the carton you'll find the farm name type it in at vitalfarms.com slash farm and you'll get a 360 degree peak at the pasture plus Vital Farms is a certified bee corporation which means they're committed to improving the lives of people animals and the planet through food eggs you could feel good about so next time you're in the store look for the black carton in the egg aisle and visit vitalfarms.com to learn more Vital Farms good eggs no shortcuts I want to ask I want to ask you some specific questions about some of the stuff in there some of the other folks you talked to like you mentioned earlier Congressman Andre Carson from the House Intelligence Committee he said and I'm loosely quoting here he said we want to encourage folks give kudos to you he was talking to you to keep pushing for more information and more answers so we have a lot of work to do to remove the stigma and I was thinking that like between the lines this sounds like congressional members are saying you know we're up against something bigger than Congress here and we can't do it alone we need people to be a part of this the people specifically and people are folks like you who are making the kind of films you make who ask the questions you ask and like to me it's like he's saying we're out in the wind here we need more support and that's Congress and they're looking for that support from you it's like who is in charge here who is it that we can't get past why is it that he needs help getting the answers to these questions you think just prior to that I will when you say it yeah what did okay so I read a quote from former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid I think it was in the New Yorker yeah might have been the New Yorker where he talked about crash retrievals I don't know if they mentioned bodies but I definitely did but I quoted Senator Harry Reid about crash retrievals and the likelihood that we had them and that it was within Lockheed Martin yes and I read that quote to him and then I said look I'm not trying to put you on the spot here but this is a game changer right if we have bodies and craft this is kind of a big deal again I'm not trying to put you on the spot but what have you heard he paused and he said because of my oath to office and my connection to the committee I can't talk about technology right right and I thought okay wow he didn't say oh that's preposterous accusation and that's just absurd and you know absolutely not he didn't say that he didn't say that and then he went on to say keep asking questions basically yeah that spoke volumes to me yeah you know because remember during the first congressional hearing in 2022 with Andre Carson that's when the memo came out the Wilson Davis memo that talked about you know Admiral Wilson who apparently according to the memo discovered the crash retrieval program there's another person that you mentioned in a YouTube interview that you did you were talking about Monheim Thomas Monheim having names of the programs names of personnel all of that stuff that's what David Grush said have you ever tried to reach out to him nope he's sitting ICIG so there's no way it's gonna well I mean I've talked to folks like how come you guys aren't asking him the questions the people that can bring him in and I'm not sure I know that's the guy that needs to get pinned down but remember he's gonna be stepping down from his position with the current administration so maybe we'll see what happens but I'd like to get him testifying under oath and he according to Grush he's got the street address right well that brings up a great question I had read through that memo and it was funny to see the two folks testifying claiming and maybe they hadn't had never heard of this I only tripped on it because I think it was posted on X kind of funny wasn't it yeah it was kind of funny that they're like I never heard of that and like I said you can't possibly know everything yeah I mean there's Scott and I love films but there's a bunch we haven't seen so or even heard of and certainly we never heard of the Jason Sands case but that's a question here I think one of the biggest ones when you're talking about disclosure is that okay who's really in charge here where is the real authority lying and and it's all upside down because then you have well as Rear Admiral Thomas Wilson was saying is that you know he walked up yeah he walked up to the facility and he said you know I'm an admiral here I'm you know I have some authority and they're like no this is a private facility you cannot you don't have access and with no ways of going in basically he's not going to barge in there with a with a platoon of soldiers eventually they did invite him in yeah that's but that's the thing is like who is there is some authority that's on the private level there's some on the governmental level but the ones who are the real gatekeepers seem to they're still a bit shadowy but you know they got to be real people with families and people who know them and they go somewhere to work each day how do we get at that that directory level of to find out who's really got the keys to this okay okay so this is something that I don't know how many people get this in the movie because it's I thought about it in retrospect maybe I made it a little too discreet I should have really hammered this one but do you know that formerly I guess it would have been classified because he had to get dobser approval and that's Chris Mellon of some correspondence he had with a high-level government employee official he had found this alleged crash retrieval program specifically mentioned the 1953 Kingman Arizona case in which case it landed not crashed landed right so that's all the names on that document have been redacted in the movie but I know for a fact that unredacted version of that I would call it a memo correspondence was provided to certain staff members and other people that are currently investigating so they had the name allegedly they have the name of the gatekeeper as of a couple years ago now whether this individual has stepped down but definitely still alive no question of that yeah and the and the individual the two individuals that found the crash retrieval program and I'm told that if you are going to hide crash retrieval program you would do it unacknowledged special access program under DOE because that's the least amount of oversight the DOE always comes up it always comes up and so there's a connection there because that and this is one of the takeaways I got from the program and it goes back to things that we learned you know one of the first things we covered when we started our show you know 10 years ago I can't remember how long ago this was we covered skinwalker ranch like four years before the TV series and all that stuff based on the book was kind of a mind-blowing thing to us Colin Kelleher they came on in 22 him and nap to talk about skinwalkers at the pentagon which has sections in it about the you know the idea of these evangelicals that are are squashing things down which you also mentioned the program I love that you brought that up I have questions about that but one of the things that it seems like is happening here is we're dealing with a corporate firewall because you have a segment with Burchett saying we can't call these private corporations in for congressional hearings and he says you know there's quite a bit of separation there and I'm sure if I was a better student of law in the constitution I would understand that but what what I don't understand is like it seems like then there's this relationship possibly with the department of energy and then companies like and the reason I brought up skinwalker ranch was because I was thinking about Robert Bigelow and Bigelow Aerospace that supposedly had material way back in the day it's now been shut down where did that material go why did it shut down maybe it just went out of business for normal business reasons but where did that material go and then is that what Congress and even the president of the United States and these high-powered politicians in DC they can't get any further into it because it's Lockheed and Grumman and whoever they're all on lockdown and we just don't have any any rights to get past that firewall and then the DOE is controlling the classification level is that what's happening I remember the I remember the the gang of eight right yeah that they are aware of the crash retrieval program so I'm told okay I know that Rubio again this is if my sources are reliable that Rubio is aware of it rounds Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer Gillibrand I'm not totally sure because seems like she's really believing what arrows feeding her and you know particularly Sean Kirkpatrick like yeah thank you Sean Kirkpatrick because of you I got interviews in the movie as a sort of fallback position because they knew that you were not going to be transparent with the testimony that they provided you right so those individuals came and met with me just in case and Sean Kirkpatrick completely and they were just disgusted by it like they've gone in and risked everything to disclose this information to the head of arrow Sean Kirkpatrick and he just blatantly lied about it all right so they were very frustrated a number of people that I met with yeah part of the program that too same thing same thing with the head of NASA is that we'll be transparent if we find anything but they're not telling you if they found anything or admitting to it how great was that that I got to you know yeah my guy down yeah I was right yeah yeah I was so upset yeah that he lambasted grush the way he did I know what he should have said is we take these allegations very seriously particularly from an individual testifying under oath to you know a joint member of lawmakers you know open congressional hearing we are currently investigating those claims and we'll follow up with a with another press conference that's what he should have said yeah but what he said to me was a smear job like yeah I don't remember I was in that room going yeah and I said to myself James revenge is a platter best served cold and I thought about how I was going to edit that segment together yeah and I worked extra hard on that yeah split screen I did juxtaposition from his statements to the statements that were made by grush under oath like yes how blatantly obvious that he was putting out complete bogus information yeah yeah to try to smear this guy yeah so I hope David Grush you're listening I hope you know that I really tried to do you a solid yeah absolutely absolutely we think you did you know now and this is speculation you're gonna say well that's spec I don't know I don't because I know your position on these things but like by one of the phrases that we've said on our show over the years because we talk about all kinds of stuff including UAP but it's like if you believe any of this at all so here's my thing about if you believe any of this at all let's say you know there's crash retrieval let's say there's even cooperation with with NHI with non-human intelligence then the next question is this the firewall of getting the information that would imply if the if these corporations are behind it and the security clearances that it's more than just there's a cooperation from the non-human intelligence to not tell us what's going on they're in cahoots with corporations and defense contractors and perhaps a portion of the government whereas because it seems like if they really wanted us to know they could just do an end run like you know it's the craft on the White House lawn or whatever it's like why are they lining up behind the U.S. government or international defense contractors you know I never believed in the allegation or claim that there was a landing at Holloman Air Force base where contact was made I don't know the exact year but I'm going to guess 1964 and I was investigating Socorro which took place just a stone's throw from White Sands Holloman right Socorro New Mexico that was a landing case close and one of the best well-documented close encounters of the third kind in U.S. history brilliant case and in the process of investigating that I came upon some articles that were written by and excuse me if I don't pronounce her name correctly I think it was Corral Lorenzen with the UFO bulletin out of I think it was Arizona and really credible individual I was like huh look at this another landing at Holloman contact filmed really so I started looking into that and then I'm not going to bore you guys with the details because we go out all night but I started looking into that and I started thinking maybe that happened and if it did happen if the big if if it did then that would imply contact was made communication with a non-human intelligence okay then I started thinking gosh you know and this is over years if they whoever they are really wanted to overtly reveal themselves that just have to hover over a Macy's Day Parade or a Super Bowl and it's game over they don't do that they've done some pretty brazen things right I mean look at Phoenix lights yeah look at what O'Hare Airport was at 2006 and and and and the airports in China just fairly recently just this last year and over the White House and it was at 57 52 yeah and they had landing cases in the 50s etc but pretty brazen right I mean let's face it I mean that mass sighting Hudson Valley you know Phoenix I mean you know they've done some pretty incredible things Ruiz Zimbabwe but they don't overtly unequivocally beyond a shadow of doubt do any kind of act take any kind of action that would just send they would just end it done right so there they must be in on it too right how else could you conclude if you believe the phenomenon's real then you'd have to come to the conclusion that they're in on the secrecy as well right so and what's the reason for that if there's one thing that I've learned in this field is as outlandish and crazy as something sounds don't just have that knee-jerk reaction that I've had for decades and just say that's impossible that didn't happen it couldn't happen that's one thing I've learned yeah spend judgment listen to the testimony one of the reasons why I reported on on the Jason Sands encounter it's like as unbelievable as it comes across what if it happened yeah what if it happened the way he said it happened what if there are more people out there that will be encouraged to come forward because he has been brave enough to come forward yeah he's told me that he'd be willing to take a polygraph publicly anytime his credentials check out I got his military records that speaks volumes okay well you're willing to put your neck out there then I'm willing to put mine out there to report on this let's cross our fingers that you know that more credible evidence comes forward and look if it comes forward people that were there that say it's absolute hogwash we'll listen to that too protein bars often feel like you're choosing between taste and nutrition if it tastes good you flip it over only to discover it's made with a whole paragraph of ingredients you've never heard of or artificial sweeteners do all the heavy lifting it's basically dessert and disguise you shouldn't have to choose between tasty and nutritious and that's what makes aloha stand out aloha protein bars nail the delicious and nutritious their USDA organic and made with ingredients that actually grow somewhere it's their whole taste that grows philosophy plant-based ingredients grown in the ground thoughtfully sourced and built to keep you satisfied their peanut butter cup bar has 14 grams of protein 10 grams of fiber and only 5 grams of sugar which is wild considering how delicious it is made with no artificial ingredients or fillers just something that tastes good and works the way it's supposed to so if you're in the mood for something truly craveable and nutritious try any of aloha's protein bars grab one at your local grocery store or head to aloha.com hello hello I'm Malcolm Gladwell host of the podcast smart talks with IBM I recently sat down with IBM's chairman and CEO Arvind Krishna and I asked him how can companies use AI to its fullest potential to create smarter business my one advice to them pick areas you can scale don't pick the shiny little toys on the side for example if anybody has more than 10% of what they had for customer service 10 years ago they're already five years behind if anybody is not using AI to make their developers who write software 30% more productive today with the goal of being 70% more productive yeah so we are not asking our clients to be the first experiment on it we say you can leverage what we did we're happy to bring out all our learnings including what needs to change in the process because the biggest change is not technology it's getting people to accept that there's a different way to do things to listen to the full conversation visit ibm.com slash smart talks this is Sarah Spain from good game with Sarah Spain brought to you in part by vital farms let's talk eggs vital farms pasture raised eggs to be exact my favorites the only kind I've got in my fridge no joke and here's why these aren't your average eggs the hens live on open pastures with fresh air and sunshine all year long they forage on local grasses and stretch their wings they're living their best life that care really shows in the taste I love mine scrambled with a little butter or whipped up into a fancy frittata and here's something most people don't know you could trace your eggs back to the farm they came from seriously side of the carton you'll find the farm name type it in at vital farms.com slash farm and you'll get a 360 degree peak at the pasture plus vital farms is a certified bee corporation which means they're committed to improving the lives of people animals and the planet through food eggs you could feel good about so next time you're in the store look for the black carton in the egg aisle and visit vital farms.com to learn more vital farms good eggs no shortcuts ever notice that feeling your worst also seems to happen at the worst time in the worst places like sudden nausea at 9pm when you're out of town really now fortunately with Hartford HealthCare's HHC 24 7 app you can get answers diagnosis prescriptions even speak live with clinicians anytime anywhere so maybe there's never a good time to be sick but at least the best care's always there download the app at your app store or HHC 24 7 dot org Forrest and Scott thank you for supporting their sponsors I'm Erin now back to the show well speaking of something that is I see it as believable and unbelievable at the same time it is one of your subjects uh in the film that you interview is Gary McKinnon yeah he was the uh the UK hacker who I think in the mid to late 90s he had broken into a a server at the Johnson Space Center and Scott I love this it was downloading at 56 kilobytes per second this photo when he mentioned that connection speed on your dial-up mode and he's just waiting for and just imagine that the anticipation is that he calls it the gold the gold dust that was waiting for this gold dust to drop on my lap because he'd found a photo and as it's loading it it turns out to be some kind of as he said uh non-human craft or nothing that uh we had known about at the same time on the backdrop of the earth actually taken from space he wasn't even sure it was the earth though he said there was cloud cover but it was a planet he said it was a some kind of planet and and then you know what I'm thinking is that okay almost went to jail yeah and they and they can do that and that's their leverage because at some point I understand him I waited 20 years to get him yeah because I was like I gotta meet that guy I remember when it happened yeah when you see you know this story and you hear about the photo and he's he's recreating it from a drawing and it's like okay okay it's a yeah it's a ufo it's shiny and it's it's pill shaped and this and that but one thing that had come up in connection to a story online and in social media is that this is the even more mind-blowing thing to me that's also potentially probable is that he claimed that he tripped onto some documents that had an inventory of material list from the united states space force of various ships that were in their inventory and it would be things like okay you have a cargo ship maybe something like the space shuttle but then it was listing things like fighters and destroyers and carriers that are part of the united states space force not the navy we're talking about spaceships here that were in the inventory and apparently connected to to gary and i don't do you have you heard that or did you ask him about that no what i heard and i'm not saying it didn't happen and what came up with him and me is the non-terrestrial officers oh right the officers yeah yeah non-terrestrial officers a list of non-terrestrial officers and he was lamenting on the fact that he couldn't remember that he should have written them down or that he couldn't remember them wicked smart guy remember when he was describing like how he hacked into the systems and he's like oh it's quite forward just did this this and he just like explained kind of what he did 20 whatever years ago and i'm thinking to myself i couldn't do that if i like this guy is so smart yeah he's like oh it's quite quite straightforward really you know it's just so you yeah it lends a bit of believability because he is so straightforward about it and was so affected by you know the ordeal and like god what have i done you know maintain the story for over 20 years based life in prison why do you think teresa may chose not to extradite him to the u.s well you know i thought about that quite a bit and there's a part of me that's going well wait a minute the brits went along with weapons of mass destruction in iraq knowing perfectly well that was probably hogwash they went along with that yeah but they didn't go along when the united states requested extradition and they said no or is it that it was sort of a tacit agreement that they didn't want a big circus media to reveal what the u.s government has hiding the details of this guy the biggest hack in u.s history apparently at the time yeah you know revealing what what he found better if the story goes away i mean i don't know that seems to make sense to me kind of what i'm getting at is that okay so you have some guy claiming he saw a photo of a ufo that's not such a big deal nowadays and we're like all right let's move along but when you claimed to have seen some document evidence that not only uh do we have a crash retrieval program but perhaps we've built some of these things for our own use and defense what are we defending ourselves against what's the scope of this where is it who's paying for it well obviously the taxpayers are paying for all this but what you know that's even more unbelievable that we have our own ships that are interstellar perhaps or space capable that uh that are military i gotta tell you i am super on the fence when it comes to that because i've heard some testimony this led me to believe maybe that's the case i've heard other testimony from people that i really trust that told me no we we think we know how it works but we haven't figured it out so until i've met someone that i believe that has been part of or seen i'm on the fence with that again i'm not going to make a judgment one way or the other because i i just haven't seen or heard the testimony needed to persuade me that we have managed to reverse engineer successfully now a lot of people can argue with me about that that's fine and i'm not saying that it's not true i'm just saying that i haven't seen enough evidence to sway me as to thinking that it is true and again i mean i'm going to maintain a neutral position on that because i don't know that brings to mind something that you know the position that you're in now and it seems like something that's happened in the past to people who document the kind of things that you're documenting is you might have to worry at this point and i wonder if you've thought about this about getting catfished about getting roped into something let's say now you're like you're next you know what we're going to decide what mr fox's next project is and it's going to be about all of the space force ships and officers and we're gonna have a bunch of people come forward and convince him all this stuff and we're going to back them up and give them dossiers and it's going to be a psyop and he's going to make a whole film and when it gets done we're going to out it as completely bogus and fake and and ruin his credibility you worry about that kind of thing i've been at this 30 years like the reason why i report on what i report on is because my field research yeah so if it doesn't line up with my i i'd be like you know what i need to see more i need to good now yeah if they take me in and show me one of these fuckers yeah sure i'll tell you about it yeah i'll be transparent yeah you don't believe me well hey i that i saw right with my own eyes right then i might be willing to do it but if they just give me some documents now that ain't gonna happen yeah and even if i'm giving some footage yeah i would be highly dubious yeah at the well at this point it's getting crazy i'm following i don't trust anyone yeah and i'm following the ai revolution pretty closely and now that it's venturing and text to video and all of that stuff it's it's getting pretty wild it really is i mean how are we gonna know fact from fiction and you know that's why it's all about provenance yeah it's like and chain of custody scott and i were just talking about a lot of the paranormal in general and all this stuff is based on your gut instinct i think and and who are you going to trust you know who's telling you something is misinformation how do we know and you're just going to have to decide for yourselves and you're going to have to do your own research and come to your own conclusions but because like at some point ai and you know who's on the phone asking you for gift cards is you're going to have to have a gut instinct and i think it's uh often trustworthy of like this doesn't seem right to me and i think that's fine and it's fair but i was going to ask about the connection to this end game here about have you found any kind of alien agenda or why are they doing this what's the purpose where are they going from here and what do they want i think that's after we establish that yeah there's junk and then there's there's bodies there's ebes what's the point here and uh what do we have to be worried about have you come to any kind of thinking or ideas about some kind of agenda here you know i kind of have my own agenda in the sense that uh i feel like i found the case that could settle this debate once and for all and that's varginia i'm going back to brazil i've got some leads on stuff that i really want to follow up on i feel like that case 1996 you know a lot of people in the town there's american involvement i think that's a really good case that we should zero in on i think uh see what we can come up with on that particular case and quite honestly we don't really have a choice i mean other than to support the current effort bipartisan effort to really dig deeper on on what they know i mean look look at what's come out in the last three four years it's quite remarkable even though we all feel like maybe it's not happening quick enough or we're concerned about disinformation or psyops like i think there are real legitimate folks on the inside that know it's time it's time to just come out right people have a right to know and just because someone works for arrow or someone works for the fbi or the cia or nsa these are still people they're still human beings and some of them are good and some of them not so much you know but uh i mean heck i was in i got to meet the head of arrow just a couple weeks ago while i was in dc right john kowskoski there's another gentleman in the room he was air force office of special investigations af osi and uh kevin ryan was it kevin ryan anyway and i said you know you guys you guys got to throw us a bone here and they were kind of quiet you know and i said because you know at the end of the day that the vast majority can be explained away in conventional terms but there's that residual 10 15 yeah probably nhi you know they didn't disagree and i said uh you know and we're not going away you guys you know i literally said throw us a bone and uh he goes john kowskoski and he said you can quote me on this he said i can't part my hair this is just a couple weeks ago i can't part my hair without dod approval and you can quote me on that so basically what he's saying is my hands are tied even if i want to tell you what i've found out right so that's my question who are these people that are making you know that are above a million dollar question yeah ain't that the million dollar question and what is their goal there is something there is maybe this that 20 people who have the big picture and they it's not the president who every and every president always jokes i don't have enough clearance uh high enough for to learn about this stuff i think they're told some things and they're given a briefing but even they're not like there's somebody who's really in charge with everything holding all the marbles holding all the keys they've just entrenched themselves and because this is the most powerful information the most transformational knowledge on this planet and in the galaxy in the universe this and that and they're in control of the little amount that we may have you know it makes me think of the time when i got a brief interview over the phone with gerald ford president ford and it's really funny actually because i had this roommate and he was a kind of a computer nerd he worked for ibm he was 20 years older than me and i loved a guy was very supportive and really into ufo phenomenon but he didn't like have all the luck with the ladies so he said to me a woman when we moved in together he goes if i'm ever in the hot tub with a woman don't you come you leave me like this is don't i don't care what don't talk i don't care if my house is on fire yeah okay my house on fire i'm in the hot tub with a woman that's like you know so i was like okay he goes that was like the main rule that he was real serious about so i get this phone call from penny circle the handler for president ford and she said james fox i said yeah this is penny circle the president's ready to speak with you well i've been trying for months to get me an interview but i had no idea it was completely out of the blue it's like oh my gosh i'm not ready i need a recording device i i she said well how much time do you need i said can you give me 10 minutes she said okay i'll ask the press you know so all right i have 10 minutes lo and behold my partner my buddy is in the hot tub with a lady i'm like oh my god i go out there i was like knocking on the door he's out on the patio he looked at me like he wanted to show me he goes what did i tell you when i'm in the hot tub i said president ford wants to give me an interview in 10 minutes he goes what i go yes he goes he leaps out of the hot tub stuck and wet goes out of the hot tub he's running to the house and trying to help me find a recording device oh my god that's it was so funny and it's so funny man i was like this is really funny you know and so i get an interview and president ford says i will talk about my efforts when i was a congressman you ask me anything during my presidency no that's off limits not going to happen don't ask me anything wow god why did he say that yeah he's willing to talk about when he was congressman now he's president then i got a brief i sort of ambushed jimmy carter in the late 90s he's like uh talking about the presidential when he was president he would look you said you'd look into this and he's like well we looked into it we weren't happy with the answers we were getting gosh really would they debrief what happened then i interviewed john podesta about clinton and he said the same thing they were inquiring about roswell sheila widnall secretary of the air force and they were making inquiries and they weren't happy with the answers they were getting then i interviewed the former governor of new mexico no richardson and uh he said that he goes yeah you know i'm the governor of new mexico you think i have a little weight nope they just pushed me around like like nothing uh-uh it just gets you kind of thinking like what are they told yeah what are they not told what are they told i mean clearly they suspect something's going on because they're they're asking questions the president of the united states is getting told what they can and cannot know or they're intimidated it kind of makes you wonder right there's a pattern here what if the nhi are in charge of the you know again as crazy as everything sounds i've i suspend judgment i'm i'm open to listening to anything who knows yeah who knows but i think there's a preponderance of evidence you know with all the various testimonies that the president i don't know since when is just either not read in definitely probably not read in told none of your you don't have a need to know who knows look if such a program existed and it was unacknowledged special access program completely off the books i wouldn't want to i'm just saying if it did i personally wouldn't want to have to brief a president who's coming in for four years maybe eight at the most yeah right yeah he's going to be a civilian again yeah you're going to debrief him in the last 80 years of stuff and by the way we've got this this that and the other thing and then in four years or eight years you're going to be back as a civilian i don't know makes sense not to tell them don't you think yeah well yeah it's just the less people that know the better and they're not involved with uh you know they start asking they get one answer to a question they're going to start asking for more answers and i think it's yeah it's just operationally uh more sound but as far as legacy we're talking generations of people now people have retired out passed away young people have come in it's an ongoing thing in keeping the biggest secret in the world and what is the end goal here obviously it's technology and you know as we've heard and i think even dr stephen greer was saying that uh another controversial figure that you're talking about blowback and anger about technology that could have been saving lives curing cancer 50 60 70 years ago perhaps uh and solving the world's energy problems and you're sitting on this because there is a military military application to it which controls the world and its power and even our own survival and so i i get why they're not even going to want to admit to it's like having nuclear weapons we don't need to know how the bomb is made but just let us know that it exists or if it falls into the wrong hands you know right i mean certainly the the witnesses that i've talked to that observed the technology i mean it flies rings around our jets i mean it makes a mockery of our fastest jets right at that point you're the ultimate power the ultimate it would be the ultimate power if you could strap a nuke on that thing it's game over man yeah yeah you're quoting bill paxton there uh game over man we're toast whatever anyone thinks of donald trump i mean that administration we got ratcliffe we got rubio i think he even said on rogan recently that he would be willing to you know unearth some of the documents some of the files let him i'm hopeful yeah yeah uh you know i i know that uh burchett said he was going to definitely bend his ear and push hard and they've got control of the house and they'll have control of the senate and the executive branch so we'll see what happens well one thing that i was surprised to see is a connection to dr hal putoff and lance munguia munguia and so how we know them from and it's funny like you can talk about pale blue aliens and a lot of our listeners like okay sure maybe not who knows just kind of dismiss it but when we start talking about consciousness studies and psychic ability that's when we get the blowback and that's when we get the pushback like no no that psychic ability no you guys are nuts that is not a thing and the connection to remote viewing even me saying that is going to get the higher of a lot of our listeners is there any kind of connection that you've seen to this phenomenon and and something involving consciousness so okay this happened to me and i've got two witnesses when i was making out of the blue we were on a third floor apartment overlooking i don't remember the name of the park in san francisco one of the i had two producers i had boris zuboff co-producers and uh tim coleman tim coleman was the british guy that told me about virginia i told you about and we were making some editorial decisions on the looks of something in out of the blue and i was like we need to tone it down it needs more serious think of like 60 minutes kind of style and tim felt differently and he wanted to put some more pizzazz in and we argued about it ultimately i had the definitive say because i was the director and i said i'm overriding you here and he really got ticked off he was 10 years my senior and he was like he was really irritated and he stormed out of the apartment and boris and i carried on working well maybe 10 or 12 minutes after that i got this vision i saw where my car was parked i saw him with a key and i saw it like a film strip in my head and dragging the key along the right front quarter panel of my car i saw it so clear as day that i didn't even need to walk out onto the patio on the third floor and look down below and see it i just knew it carried on for another six seven eight hours left when they walk downstairs there exactly where i saw it is a key mark all the way down the right front quarter panel just like i saw it okay so i called tim you can ask him about this he'd happily tell you and i said tim i know you keyed my car and he vehemently denied it and he was saying i how dare you accuse me of such a thing i'm bloody the man you take back you retract that statement now and i said tim i know you did it and i'm okay with that i don't in the heat of the moment you're upset when you've come to terms with that you can i demand it and click and uh oh five days later whatever he called me up and he goes you know you're a psychic how did you know i told him i saw it i saw it how do you explain that yeah how do you explain that that image just pop into my mind i told hal put off about it yeah i said i've never i didn't believe in it or not believe in it but that happened to me i've got two other witnesses to confirm that that happened that i saw that he's not going to try to keep any secrets from you moving forward i was so certain over the time i remember i didn't even need the confirmation of walking out of the balcony yeah and looking down below and seeing it no how do you explain that yeah a couple of quick final questions we'll let you go because uh we know you gotta go read to my son yes go read your son that's gonna be great yeah um one observation firstly i want to say in moment of contact your eyewitness when you got him out to the crash site i don't know how anyone could ever watch that and not believe that that person had an experience yes yes unbelievable that changed or not changed but it just it brought home the the reality he deserves the award of his life yeah exactly and there's just no way that he didn't witness what he thought was a crashed craft there it's it's an amazing capture did with the calvine photo did you go out to where the picture was supposed to take is the barwire fence still there or yes it's yes so you could make it you could take a new shot and have it be very similar i took that shot i have it in my phone you do i would love to see that will you share that with us okay yes of course one of my final questions is is peter coyote super cool and does he believe in aliens yeah so peter peter was friends with a guy who wrote a book called uh friends in high places he was part of the uh clinton administration i actually interviewed him as part of out of the blue as well peter had said to me you know my friend wrote this book and he said that a couple of things that clinton said when he appointed him was that i need you to go dig in for two things one who killed jfk and two are the ufos yeah webster hubble oh yeah i think his name yeah web hubble yeah he wrote friends in high places you can check it out he quotes in the book i actually got him on the phone and and interviewed him i don't know what happened to that guy but that was like 24 years ago he's got to be in his 80s now yeah i would imagine yeah everybody's getting older everybody is well that's why we need uh we need a new generation to to pick up the uh the mantle here the torch and and carry on and keep asking questions and produce great content i see michaels is doing an amazing job yeah have you seen have you seen the show he really does deep dives okay smart guy all right what what's your next project uh i'm going back to brazil in a in i don't know oh yes three four weeks okay excellent doing that i'm going to revamp a moment of contact okay and i'm thinking about doing an event the national press club quite similar to what i did in 2007 with leslie kane oh great that's great then filming that and then putting that out and then i'll probably do a sequel to the program okay and then i'll probably take a year off you'll be entitled at that point yeah thinking of the next generation and where we go from here i was going to ask you it's one of my uh final questions here uh now there's is kind of a famous youtube video here you your ufo debate uh with destiny uh michael schirmer daniel pinchbeck bill ottman we'll have a link to that of course in our show notes uh but it's produced by the minds podcast and in about halfway through about an hour you have an exchange with destiny again who's kind of become known for more political uh i think punditry i think he represents a lot of the attitude in that uh well you know we haven't seen much it's just not impressive i get it it's a big story but until i see something i just don't care that much about it or that much to dig into it and you'd made a good point of like well i have and so what i'm telling you is that the cat's out of the bag you can't uh put the toothpaste back of the tube and all those all those sayings in that now that the uh the first drips of some kind of disclosure have been uh you know hey when did i do that that was july 23 july 23 have you collected on the bet yeah that was it would have had to been july 24 i think yeah oh it was posted july 28th so yeah posted july 28th 2023 didn't i say something a little rude to him no i didn't well you were very direct you were very much like how many uh how many high-ranking military officials have you interviewed how many yeah well no is isn't because i think you have to you have to be direct because yeah and the thing is if you haven't then what you're going on and this is maybe talking about that gut feeling but without the the research on it is that it's speculation about the motives of whatever this phenomenon is and the beings behind it and what do they want and what are they doing this and and what are how are we going to react you're just thinking like well that's not going to happen i haven't seen it and uh i don't think they'd be crashing which is like and you you made a good point maybe we're shooting them down i've heard that as well but you're you're putting your application of your just your everyday life and logic to something that is beyond that and it's just not going to fit i don't think it's not going to work well and so that was your point i think it was very well made and and and direct polite but uh but forceful and just saying like uh yeah well i have looked into this and i can tell you that this thing is building up steam and so you made a bet for a thousand dollars that i think within a year some kind of disclosure uh more so was going to happen and so whatever happened with that gosh that's a good question i know was that before david grush or after well when was the first hearing with grush well that was was that late july or well the first i think congressional hearing was was it may 17 2022 uh here we go live july 26 23 okay so then brush would have come on after that yeah i guess yeah well that was a pretty big one right there yeah yeah i think so i think you're i think you might need to collect progressing with that uh what's your view on what we're going to uh be getting next because that's one thing that kind of stuck with me that you said is that just hold on there's going to be better photos higher res images video clips our minds are going to start to be blown even more what do you feel about that and going forward from this moment you know it's hard to make predictions but if you look at the trend we're leading in that direction for sure i'd like to think that the program is going to you know look there's been a lot of things that happened we've got congressional hearings we've got different podcasts we've got rogan we've got you guys we got the program coming out and all the accusations that are made in that credible ones mind you uh and the fact that i think it'll be pretty apparent to those who watch it that the much more compelling data is hidden behind closed doors i think we make a pretty good case on that so the hunt is on you know and it's just a matter of time and you know you say these things are on the brink but provenance matters so we're gonna have to really you know because i remember when the calvine ufo thing came out and people were like oh reflection and this you know but when you get the background story to it the people that were there and investigated the case and interviewed the witnesses and that sort of thing uh it's far more compelling did you get those two chefs real names did you did yes you did are you tracking on that at all or i'm working on that okay good that's good i hope you are i got both their names yes well we're going to let you go you've been so generous with your time why don't you tell our listeners uh where they can find the program how they can watch it so it'll be out on the 16th of december on amazon itunes apple tv vimeo and it will be available to buy only for the first two weeks and it's going to be $19.99 which is expensive and i know that so anyone out there that can afford it and want to support it great if you cannot wait a couple weeks it'll be out for rental for much cheaper i'll tell you what i'm gonna buy it i'm still watching moment of contact over and over i'm excited folks that's just two days after this episode is posting so if you're hearing this now and a lot of people it takes them a few days to hear our show so it might already be out by the time you hear it go and check this out it's going to be your favorite christmas movie i think it's the most independent film i've ever done we don't we don't have a distributor we're financing i borrowed a quarter of a million dollars to just to release it to pay for all the the trailer and the pr firm the ad space just all that stuff adds up well we hope we hope our audience will come out and support you because you deserve it the work you're doing is critical and uh we also hope that you'll come back on the show with us and keep us informed because we you're a great guest and we'd love to have you back anytime that you want to get thanks guys i appreciate it i really do thanks for having me on and that wraps up episode 299 of astonishing legends don't miss our next show on december 23rd 2024 it's our 300th episode and the fifth astonishing all-star holiday special join us and our returning guests paul gledhill micah hanks jim harold richard haddam allison joinland tess feifel ed vicola chris culari and miranda merrick for our traditional but not so traditional annual party if you're a regular astonishing legends listener you already know about our weekly show the astonishing dead letter office which is part of our main feed but that's just the start be sure to check out the other great shows in the astonishing legends network like the midnight library scared all the time and richard haddam's paranormal bookshelf they are all very different from astonishing legends and each other but at the same time part of our network shared collective vision you can find links to them in all of our episode notes astonishing legends is edited by sarah vorhees wendell at vw sound our co-producer is tess feifel who also leads our research efforts and manages our social media and we're grateful for the hard work of our technical producer ed vacola behind the scenes special thanks to our announcer john boland for lending his voice to our shows hi hello everyone e r i n this is matt villenden and for the record and per your instructions on the website my name is marty white la croix la croix now back to the show our theme which is available as a ringtone was composed by judson crane at founder music.com all other music and sound designed for the show is composed and created by alan caressia our logo was created by tommy beaver design and our animated graphics for social media and youtube are done by joshua sloan at dead street productions.com many episodes have transcripts available for ones that don't you can request them by emailing transcripts at astonishing legends.com astonishing legends would not be possible without you our listeners visit our store at astonishing legends.com or interact with us and other listeners on facebook instagram blue sky discord and youtube you can also visit us at patreon.com slash astonishing legends where patrons have access to commercial free versions of both the main show and the dead letter office as well as additional bonus content including the patreon exclusive show the astonishing junk drawer if you're new to patreon you can save money by signing up on the web through a browser or using an android device rather than apple's app store where apple charges a 30% markup on signups through ios no part of this show may be reproduced anywhere without permission copyright astonishing legends productions good night raise your hand if you want your nails to look perfect all the time me too i'm sarah gibson tuttle from olive and june and this is exactly why we created the mani system we wanted to make it possible for everyone everywhere to give themselves a beautiful manicure at home with our tools and our long-lasting polish each manicure with our mani system comes out to just two dollars that's right two dollars no more 30 40 50 dollar manis that you get at a salon and they take hours now you can paint your nails on your time and love them more than ever and by the way when people ask who did your nails where did you get them done you're going to proudly say i did them myself get 20 off your first mani system with code diy nail 20 at olive and june.com slash diy nail 20 that's code diy nail 20 for 20 off at olive and june.com slash diy nail 20 protein bars often feel like you're choosing between taste and nutrition if it tastes good you flip it over only to discover it's made with a whole paragraph of ingredients you've never heard of or artificial sweeteners do all the heavy lifting it's basically dessert in disguise you shouldn't have to choose between tasty and nutritious and that's what makes aloha stand out aloha protein bars nail the delicious and nutritious they're usda organic and made with ingredients that actually grow somewhere it's their whole taste that grows philosophy plant-based ingredients grown in the ground thoughtfully sourced and built to keep you satisfied their peanut butter cup bar has 14 grams of protein 10 grams of fiber and only 5 grams of sugar which is wild considering how delicious it is made with no artificial ingredients or fillers just something that tastes good and works the way it's supposed to so if you're in the mood for something truly craveable and nutritious try any of aloha's protein bars grab one at your local grocery store or head to aloha.com hello hello i'm malcolm gladwell host of the podcast smart talks with ibm i recently sat down with ibm's chairman and ceo arvind krishna and i asked him how can companies use ai to its fullest potential to create smarter business my one advice to them pick areas you can scale don't pick the shiny little toys on the side for example if anybody has more than 10 percent of what they had for customer service 10 years ago they're already five years behind if anybody is not using ai to make their developers who write software 30 percent more productive today with the goal of being 70 percent more productive yeah wow so we are not asking our clients to be the first experiment on it we say you can leverage what we did we're happy to bring out all our learnings including what needs to change in the process because the biggest change is not technology it's getting people to accept that there's a different way to do things to listen to the full conversation visit ibm.com smart talks this is sarah spain from good game with sarah spain brought to you in part by vital farms let's talk eggs vital farms pasture raised eggs to be exact my favorites the only kind i've got in my fridge no joke and here's why these aren't your average eggs the hens live on open pastures with fresh air and sunshine all year long they forage on local grasses and stretch their wings they're living their best life that care really shows in the taste i love mine scrambled with a little butter or whipped up into a fancy frittata and here's something most people don't know you could trace your eggs back to the farm they came from seriously side of the carton you'll find the farm name type it in at vital farms.com slash farm and you'll get a 360 degree peak at the pasture plus vital farms is a certified b corporation which means they're committed to improving the lives of people animals and the planet through food eggs you could feel good about so next time you're in the store look for the black carton in the egg aisle and visit vital farms.com to learn more vital farms good eggs no shortcuts ever notice that feeling your worst also seems to happen at the worst time in the worst places like sudden nausea at 9 p.m when you're out of town really now fortunately with hartford health care's hhc 24 7 app you can get answers diagnosis prescriptions even speak live with clinicians anytime anywhere so maybe there's never a good time to be sick but at least the best care is always there download the app at your app store or hhc247.org protein bars often feel like you're choosing between taste and nutrition if it tastes good you flip it over only to discover it's made with a whole paragraph of ingredients you've never heard of or artificial sweeteners do all the heavy lifting it's basically dessert in disguise you shouldn't have to choose between tasty and nutritious and that's what makes aloha stand out aloha protein bars nail the delicious and nutritious they're usda organic and made with ingredients that actually grow somewhere it's their whole taste that grows philosophy plant-based ingredients grown in the ground thoughtfully sourced and built to keep you satisfied their peanut butter cup bar has 14 grams of protein 10 grams of fiber and only 5 grams of sugar which is wild considering how delicious it is made with no artificial ingredients or fillers just something that tastes good and works the way it's supposed to so if you're in the mood for something truly craveable and nutritious try any of aloha's protein bars grab one at your local grocery store or head to aloha.com hello hello i'm malcolm gladwell host of smart talks with ibm i recently spoke with ibm's new director of research jake ambatta we discussed his vision for the future of quantum computing at ibm research what we always do is answer what is the future of computing whether it's coming up with new algorithms coming up with better ai coming up with quantum or coming up with just how do different accelerators go together it's our dna to answer the question of what is the future isn't it a perfect problem for ibm because you kind of need to have a legacy of building stuff yes building actual physical machines yeah it's why i came to ibm i wanted the experience the culture of building hard things that others have not done before where do you imagine we are in the timeline of this technology there will come a point when it will mature right yeah my cell phone has is a mature technology at this point how far are we from that point with quantum by 2029 will build the first fault tolerant quantum computer that is one that can run a very very large large problem to learn how ibm is building the future of computing visit ibm.com slash quantum this is sarah spain from good game with sarah spain brought to you in part by vital farms let's talk eggs vital farms pasture raised eggs to be exact my favorites the only kind i've got in my fridge no joke and here's why these aren't your average eggs the hens live on open pastures with fresh air and sunshine all year long they forage on local grasses and stretch their wings they're living their best life that care really shows in the taste i love mine scrambled with a little butter or whipped up into a fancy frittata and here's something most people don't know you could trace your eggs back to the farm they came from seriously side of the carton you'll find the farm name type it in at vital farms.com slash farm and you'll get a 360 degree peak at the pasture plus vital farms is a certified b corporation which means they're committed to improving the lives of people animals and the planet through food eggs you could feel good about so next time you're in the store look for the black carton in the egg aisle and visit vital farms.com to learn more vital farms good eggs no shortcuts ever notice that feeling your worst also seems to happen at the worst time in the worst places like sudden nausea at 9 p.m when you're out of town really now fortunately with hartford healthcare's hhc 24 7 app you can get answers diagnosis prescriptions even speak live with clinicians anytime anywhere so maybe there's never a good time to be sick but at least the best care is always there download the app at your app store or hhc247.org success starts with your drive and american public university is here to fuel it with affordable tuition and over 200 flexible online programs apu helps you gain the skills and confidence to move forward whether you're changing careers starting fresh or pursuing a lifelong passion our programs are designed for people who never stop you bring the fire apu will fuel the journey learn more at apu.apus.edu ever notice that feeling your worst also seems to happen at the worst time in the worst places like sudden nausea at 9 p.m when you're out of town really now fortunately with hartford healthcare's hhc 24 7 app you can get answers diagnosis prescriptions even speak live with clinicians anytime anywhere so maybe there's never a good time to be sick but at least the best care is always there download the app at your app store or hhc247.org success starts with your drive and american public university is here to fuel it with affordable tuition and over 200 flexible online programs apu helps you gain the skills and confidence to move forward whether you're changing careers starting fresh or pursuing a lifelong passion our programs are designed for people who never stop you bring the fire apu will fuel the journey learn more at apu.apus.edu cold and flu season happens and when it does your skin deserves comfort that's why kleenex lotion tissues are made with moisturizing ingredients and offer three-in-one skin loving benefits helping protect soothe and moisturize your skin so whether you're at home on the go or just living life keep kleenex lotion close for a little extra care that makes a big difference for whatever happens next grab kleenex