They’re Already Here

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Explore over 350-plus programs at asuonline.asu.edu. Astonishing Legends Network. Thanks to our sponsors and Patreon supporters, Astonishing Legends is free to listen to. We appreciate your support of them and us. If you're anything like Scott and I, and we're betting you may be since you listen to our show, you may spend more time looking up when you're outside than a lot of people. No, scanning the sky for anything even remotely unusual. Something not quite right. Something that's not just Venus, Sirius the dog star, or a satellite or airplane. Maybe something that, as Scott likes to say, exhibits non-ballistic motion. Humankind has been looking at the sky since prehistoric times. But in 1609, Galileo took the recently invented telescope and improved upon it. It had value for exploration and military applications. But Galileo is thought to be one of the first people to turn one toward the sky. He wanted to make astronomical observations with it. Since then, we've built massive high-tech telescopes to peer into the deepest corners of the universe, searching not only for our own origins, but also for a signal, a sign, any flicker of movement that suggests we are not alone in the infinite black void. These telescopes look so far into the darkness that they can see over 13 billion years into the past. With this idea of watching the skies, the assumption has always been that if contact happens, it will come from above. It will descend from the heavens in a chariot of fire or a silver disc, perhaps with a visitor from a distant world arriving at our doorstep after a journey of light years. Trillions of miles. But maybe we've been looking in the wrong direction. While we obsess over the vacuum of space, we forget about the alien world that covers 71% of our planet. Even the surface of Mars is mapped more comprehensively than our own sea floor. Down in the crushing dark, where the pressure is enough to implode our strongest manufactured materials, there are trenches and valleys that no human eye has ever seen. It's a vast, silent kingdom that we know virtually nothing about. It's also the largest habitat for life on Earth. For centuries, sailors have returned to port with stories that were dismissed as fatigue or madness. They spoke of lights that did not reflect on the water, but glowed from beneath it. They described massive shapes that moved with impossible speed, pacing their vessels before vanishing into the depths. On the eve of his first landing in the Americas, Christopher Columbus and his crew reported a strange, moving light, lifting and dropping over the distant waves. And now, in the era of high-definition sensors and radar, our own military pilots are recording objects that drop from the stratosphere to sea level in seconds, entering the water without a splash, transitioning between air and ocean as if the barrier didn't exist. In January of 2025, Representative Tim Burchett of Tennessee went on national television stating, they tell me something's moving at hundreds of miles an hour underwater. One was as large as a football field. This was a documented case, and I have an admiral telling me this stuff. We call them Unidentified Submerged Objects, or USOs. U.S. Navy personnel even have a nickname for them, Fast Movers. The data is real. The sightings are verified. The implications are hard to fathom. We're searching the galaxy for neighbors, scrambling to figure out what we'll do if they show up. But what if they've been here all along, and we are the new arrivals? Welcome back to Astonishing Legends. I'm Scott Philbrook, and this is Forrest Burgess. Roll on, thou deep and dark blue ocean. Roll. Ten thousand fleets sweep over thee in vain. Man marks the earth with ruin. His control stops with the shore. From stanza 179 of Lord Byron's epic poem, Childe Herald's Pilgrimage. Join us tonight as we dive into the question of whether or not non-human intelligence lies beneath the sea. And we're back, finally. That we are, folks. Took a bit of a hiatus after a series of unfortunate events. Yeah, you could say that. Well, the end of 2025 was a lot, to be sure. Scott and I both lost a parent within a week of each other. Yes, we did. You, your dad, me, my mom. And while neither passing was a total surprise, the timing of it all was a bit uncanny. It's not something we talked about on the show, but we'd been coping with significant elder care issues for years. And the behind the scenes of it all was that it was unfolding for us with a strange synchronicity, even though we now live in completely different parts of the country. Yeah, and maybe one day we'll talk more about that. But I, this is very strange for me because I knew this conversation with our listeners was going to come up. And now it's happening. Yeah. But now we're ready to get back to doing what we do. But first, we wanted to take a moment to thank the doctors, nurses, nursing assistants, social workers, caretakers, pharmacists, receptionists, schedulers, billing, and most importantly, friends, family, and you, our listeners, who reached out to us with kind words, wishes, and support for us. Yeah, there's a lot not to like about how health care works in the U.S., but the people working in it are definitely not part of the problem. They have the hardest jobs in the world under extreme physical stress and emotional conditions, and yet they almost always have a smile or something comforting to say to your loved ones or you as you go on that inevitable journey with them. Yeah, they absolutely do. And thankfully, especially those on the front lines, as they say, and I'm talking about the nurses, the NACs, the CNAs, they've seen things. They've seen things, had to put up with things and behaviors, had to clean up things you probably can't imagine and wouldn't want to. And if you've ever been in the middle of all that, you might wonder why they do it. And then you realize it's because they genuinely care about people, because no one would last long doing that if they didn't. Yes, so thank you all very much. You guys know who you are, and we know you're our listeners because we hear from you all the time. So we're just saying thank you for being better than we expected you to be when we got into that situation where we were seeing you every day. That is the truth, my friend. Oh, and did I mention that I had to put a 16-year-old dog down the day before New Year's Eve? That was the final icing on the cake this year. Yeah, that was. Yeah, actually, the very last thing for this year, I hope we can close out and put a period or full stop on it. Yeah. Let's have a moment of silence for Lulu, the astonishing dog, whom we've talked about frequently over the years. And I've had the pleasure of, and I really do mean pleasure because she was a real sweetheart. Yeah, she was. But I've taken care of her a lot, dog-sitting, while you were out of town. Yes, I very much appreciate that my family does. So we bonded pretty close and at least had a couple paranormal experiences, which you still deny, together. Well, anyway, I guess she was about four years old when we started the show. Do you know how old she was? Yeah, it's a guess since she was a rescue, but that seems right. But she will be sorely missed in my house. Well, anyway, folks, now it's 2026, and it's time for a new year of Astonishing Legends and the Astonishing Dead Letter Office, as well as new shows from the Astonishing Legends Network shows, The Midnight Library, Scared All the Time, and Richard Haddam's Paranormal Bookshelf. All right. But for tonight, let's dive deep into the deep blue sea. And finally, we get to use the dive in metaphor or maybe deep dive metaphor accurately for the first time in over 10 years. Truly, sir, and we'll both refrain from speaking in pirate voices, although I can't guarantee that. But anyway, this year, we're grouping more shows together for concurrent multi-parters, I think. At least that was Scott's plan. I'm on board, too. Yeah, tweaked our schedule a little bit this year. Not all the time, but sometimes. This first show is an example of that because we're running a show this week, and next week, right after that, these two will go hand in hand. And it's a little bit different because they're not serialized, but the theme is the same, which you'll understand after you hear them both. Yeah, that will make more sense as we go on. But tonight, we're going to start with something that we first mentioned when the show was only about 10 months old back in August of 2015. Yeah, that's right. A little over 10 years ago, we released an episode on the Fermi Paradox. It was our 22nd episode of Astonishing Legends, and during this episode, which for those of you who know about the Fermi Paradox, we discussed the paradox, which essentially says, if the universe is so vast and infinite with so many potential homes for alien civilizations, then why aren't they here? I wanted to play a soundbite from near the end of that episode that for me was at the root of why this topic has been something I've been thinking about for a while. Sarah, if you can roll that clip, please. Now, keep in mind, we weren't the polished professionals we are now. Oh, so we're polished professionals now. Yeah, totally, totally polished professionals. Very good. Work with me here. All right, Sarah, roll that clip, please. Let's go back to the supposition that they are organic creatures with social structure and hierarchy like us, which, again, that rules out the extremophiles like the tardigrades and whatever. But let's say that they are similar to us, humanoid even in a way, like they say the greys are. Maybe they're already here. Maybe they've been here the whole time. Maybe they live under the ocean. Well, those are all very good points, Scott. And some forethinking on your part. That's not even a word, but I made it up. I'm going to stick with it. Now it's a word. Not foreshadowed. You know how AI works, right? They're going to throw that into a dictionary by tomorrow. And then that'll be, yes, it'll be the next word of the year by one of the dictionary companies. But the idea is I think as we approach concepts, which to me what's fascinating is that they are at once both extremely complicated and most likely outside our realm for possible rationalization. Like I said, many times these are so philosophical in thinking about how does this happen and what is the nature of it? And it may just be beyond our capacity to understand. And that's philosophical in a way. You remember saying like, again, it goes back to we don't know their motivations and may not be able to, even though actions are clearly visible and now documented. And that's what we're going to talk about tonight, what has been documented as evidence and how is this phenomenon looked upon in particular. And as we've gone along, since we've made this statement that you have, this is what we do on the show over the last 10 years or so, for me personally anyway, is you start to gather anecdotes and bits of information and purported evidence of these things. And you start to think about them more philosophically in a way and hopefully, you know, our limited amount of ration for myself and reason. And it's like, well, how does this work? And so early on years ago, I'd heard this concept of like, well, how do they move that fast underwater? Because you're moving through viscous material, unlike the air. We can more wrap our heads around how something flies Mach 20, Mach 50. Right. Because we're getting there ourselves. But submarines only go so fast, if you know what I'm saying. Sure. We can't push beyond that boundary. And one interesting concept was that somehow they are incorporating water. So they're not really pushing it out of the way. Right. The vehicle is one with the water. Maybe that's the best way I can put this concept because I'm not relaying it very well. And it was years ago since I heard this. It's kind of like a transmutation of an object through a material, in this case, H2O. In that, so you're not pushing water out of the way and you're not propelling water as ship's screws do. You know, you're pushing the water to propel. Throwing it out the back is that you were one with it and moving along. And maybe you just materialize it at different points. So that's a fascinating concept. But now, again, years after that thought, I'm beginning to think is, and this is what's coming out in the news. And you'll see it in your clips. If you are like us, you're starting to get flooded with very strange things in your various social media feeds. In that there's no real difference between UAP and USO. And that most of these, and maybe all, depending on why these craft are created and what their purpose is, they can all go underwater or in the air. Think about the craft. That's right. They're doing the same thing in both places. That's right. Exactly. And think about, see us in concrete nuts and bolts terms, think about the vehicle in Steven Spielberg's movie AI. Remember, they had that helicopter-like thing that could travel underwater, but also through the air. And, okay, that's how we think about it as a craft. And there, I'm talking about like a Merkava-type UFO where it's maybe more like an organism or something that has a machine that has sentience of its own. And think about the space, though, how easily, like, why don't we ever see them? Because they've been down, they have the perfect hiding place on Earth, the deep oceans, which we can't do well in. You know, I forgot about this as a kid. It's like, in a submarine, there's no window. It's like, you're moving blind down there. But we know from censored data, from our subs now, that there are these fast movers underwater now. So the thinking about the phenomenon, at least for me, continues to expand and expands my thinking and my curiosity. And so I'm glad we're finally talking about this. I am, too. I'm excited to get into it. So let's start out here. Let's go chronologically. Okay, so usually we start with the folklore and then we end with more modern sightings or whatever kind of evidence you might have for whatever legend we're talking about. But tonight we're flipping the script on that because the data coming out of the U.S. military the past few years is stronger than the anecdotal evidence from history, which is still interesting. And we're still going to talk about that. Well, exactly. With an egg. E-G-G. That's how I spell it. Because people could say that's the folklore part, is the anecdotes. Even the modern day ones. Like, well, that's just modern day folklore. We're past all that. I just want to relate something quickly. I just saw Dan Farah, the director, the filmmaker behind the new Disclosure doc that was bringing everything up. And what he was saying is that, what was there, like 25 authorities he's interviewed at least or something like that. Yeah, all government, ex-government, yeah. Yeah. No civilians in that movie. Right. So what he's saying is that, look, these are people that all came from different backgrounds, not politically aligned in any way, different cultures even, had never spoken to each other. And he said, yeah, they have different viewpoints on their personal, you know, what this means. But he said to a person, none of them said, well, maybe this is happening or maybe this is a possibility. He said, we're beyond that. He said, this is happening. This is a reality. Now, what we do with that knowledge is something else. But we're beyond this just being a supposed. So, yeah, we're not asking at this point if these things are real, okay? You know, and the Navy is already dealing with them. They're not asking if it's real or not. That's right. Exactly. So here we are 10 years after talking about USOs ourselves to take a much deeper look at them. But the catch is, even 10 years ago, we were already late to the party because the now infamous Nimitz tic-tac incident took place in late 2004. That's right. And if you think about in a whole about being in the dark and being late to the party, 70 to 80 years of this has already been going on in an official capacity. So to be clear, that tic-tac was never observed also entering the water, okay? Right. But in tonight's episode, we're going to try and connect the capabilities of the tic-tac and airborne craft of this type with ones that can easily become transmedium. And just quickly, if you remember, another part of this, which I think a lot of people forget because they're focused on that video, the gun camera video. Yes, yes. Is that also what Commander David Fravor described was seeing something the size of a 747 or a football field under the water with the water roiling above it. That's right. Do you remember that part? Yeah, that's right. So there wasn't so much thing. Now, that thing never came out of the water as far as they know, but there was something under the water. That's right. And so when we say transmedium for people who haven't heard that term before, that means capable of navigating in the air or the water and possibly even other materials with full control and impunity. Right. And the tic-tac incident is significant because it was observed by the U.S. military and more specifically radar, infrared technology, and the naked eye, which, you know, people frequently comment on in our episodes that, you know, eyewitness testimony is fraught with mistakes and misremembered details. And I will agree with that. But eyewitness testimony in conjunction with the most state-of-the-art tech available to the U.S. military is another layer of corroboration. That's right. So that's what's known as sensor data. And it's important to stop for a second and explain exactly what saw these things, whether it's the tic-tac or any of the other recent documented sightings. Because when the skeptics say, oh, it was a bird, it was a glitch in the pilot's helmet, or lens flare, or a balloon that appears to be moving faster than it is because of parallax issues, which, by the way, that's going to come up later. But they are ignoring the fact that these objects were being tracked by some of the most sophisticated surveillance equipment on the face of the planet. Right. Right. And I will say, I do appreciate people like Mick West, you know, and his observations from a computer standpoint. Yes, I know. I was doing silly voices. People are going to be talking to him. He might think that's funny as well. I wasn't picking. I wasn't, by the way. I had no one in mind when I did the silly voices. No, I know, I know. But he may have a, look, you got to have a sense of humor about all this and about yourself as well. And I don't think he takes himself too seriously. I think he puts a lot of studious observation and, what would you call it, analysis skills that he has, especially with computers into this. But, you know, mostly where I see him stopping or, you know, having so much of this in the past few years going over it, well, it's a little bit of pilot misinterpretation, not understanding what they're seeing exactly, and some miscalculation by the sensor data. Right. It's like, yes, but also you have to take the gestalt into it, and that the USS Princeton is also tracking this stuff. So you have multiple centers, as we're talking about, right? So that's what we're saying. We aren't talking about a pair of binoculars here. In this instance, we're talking about the AN-SPY, the AN-SPY-1 radar system, and then the ATFLIR. So it's the A-T-F-L-I-R. And honestly, if you aren't a military contractor or a naval aviator, those acronyms probably just sound like alphabet soup. But understanding what they do is the key to understanding why the Navy took this so seriously. That's right. So the AN-SPY-1 system is the system on the USS Princeton, which Boris just mentioned, which is the cruiser that was sailing with the Nimitz carrier group. It's part of the Aegis system, which defense analysts often call the eye of God for the Navy fleet because it sees everything. That's right. And some cursory research tells us it's a multifunction phased array radar system. Now, in the old days, like you see in those World War II movies, radar was a dish spinning around on top of the ship, right? And just seeing what was on the other day, which actually has probably some relevance now, even though it's just kind of fun. The final countdown. Oh, my God. With Kirk Douglas and Michael. That movie scared me to death when I was a kid. It was so fascinating. And yes, it's a love letter to the Navy and the naval operations, but it was just a fascinating concept. And taking, you know, from things like the Philadelphia experiment. But that's what you see when they go through the cloud, like the radar dish stops. Everything stops and they get transported. So that's what we're talking about, right? It just sweeps a circle. And if the dish isn't pointing at you, it doesn't see you, right? Right. But the ANSPY-1 system, and forgive me, military folks, if nobody says it that way. I don't know because I'm not in the military and I don't pretend to be. But it doesn't spin. It looks everywhere all at once. It uses four massive flat faces like giant stop signs bolted to the superstructure of the ship. And it shoots out beams of electromagnetic energy in thousands of directions simultaneously. It is electronically steered so it can track hundreds of targets, missiles, aircraft, birds, you name it, out to hundreds of miles in 3D space instantly. And I want to repeat that. It tracks not only manufactured physical objects, but birds too. It knows the difference. If something is moving in the sky, this thing knows it. That's right. It just made me think of the SLS, a ghost cam, the structured light system. Oh, yeah. Which is based on a similar thing. It's putting out measurements or tracking data, like hundreds of dots, and seeing if anything changes. So in this system here, it knows the speed, altitude, direction, and velocity. And then in the case of the Nimitz encounters, this system, which is the most advanced radar system of its generation, was tracking the tic-tac objects dropping from 80,000 feet to sea level in less than a second. Yeah, which obviously is physically impossible for any known aircraft. That's known. Okay, right. And usually, if a radar sees something impossible, the operators assume it's a clutter track, which is a term they use, or a glitch. And then they reset the system. And they did reset the system on the Princeton. And they rebooted the whole thing to clear the ghosts out, speaking of which. And then when it came back online, the objects were still there. That's right. They were still there. Which brings us to the second piece of tech, because radar tells you where something is, but it doesn't show you a picture of what it is. And for that, the pilots use the ATFLIR. Yes, that's A-T-F-L-I-R. Right. Okay, so now we're talking ghost tech and UFO tech. That's right. And maybe they're connected somehow. But over the years, we have talked about FLIR. So that's an acronym a lot of people already know, especially if you play video games. Yes. Ghost Recon. That's right. There you go. Forward-looking infrared. Yes. F-L-I-R. But ATFLIR stands for Advanced Targeting Forward-Looking Infrared. And this is a pod mounted on the belly, in this case, on the F-18 Super Hornet. It's basically like a super telescope that sees heat. Do you remember? Now, is that the same thing for folks that might know with Top Gun Maverick? Remember when they had a little problem with the thing's turning and they can't get a lock? Yes, yes. I haven't seen Maverick since it first came out. But I'm pretty sure, if you look up pictures of this thing, I'm pretty sure it's that same thing. Right, right. Yeah, because it's like a little dome with a piece of, like, I think a piece of glass on the front of it. Yeah, and it's pivoting. So you'll see in the movie, basically, it's pivoting. And what's happening is that they're not getting a target lock. So you got to go use the force, Luke, and do it manually. But that doesn't work very well. Yeah, but with the blast shield down, I can't see anything. Anyway, yes, nerd, super nerd. Yeah, thank you, Red Leader. 2026, I'm nerding out already. But yes, this thing, the Atfleer sees distinct high-resolution thermal imaging. It detects the infrared energy radiating off an object. If a jet engine is burning, it glows white hot. If a bird is flying, it has a tiny heat signature. The Atfleer can switch between TV mode, like a regular camera, and infrared mode. And this is crucial for the fast movers' argument, because these pilots were looking at these objects on the Atfleer. Right, but they had no exhaust plumes or heat signatures. If you're moving at supersonic speeds or hovering against the wind, well, you're burning fuel. That's how you stay up there. You know, you're generating massive amounts of heat. And the Atfleer is designed to specifically lock onto that heat to guide missiles. But on the Tic Tac videos, you may, of course, already recognize these nicknames they've given them. But the gimbal and then the GoFast, in that case, the FLIR-1, with that, you see a solid object that is colder than the ocean behind it. Or it matches the background temperature with absolutely no exhaust coming out the back. That's right. That's one of Newton's laws, right? To get anywhere, you've got to throw something out the back. To recap, the SPY-1 radar, the Eye of God, says, there is a solid object right there moving at impossible speeds. And the Atfleer, the thermal camera, says, I see the object, but it has no engine, no wings, and no heat plume. And then the pilot looks out the window and says, I see it with my own eyes. Right. So that's the trifecta, radar, infrared, visual. That is why you can't just dismiss this as a glitch. You'd have to have three completely different independent systems and the human brain all glitching in the exact same way at the exact same time. It's not a balloon or a bird. And by the way, I say that acknowledging the fact that an absurdly high portion of UFO videos posted on Reddit anyway really, really look like clusters of balloons to me. That's, yeah, that was the one, no, I think on Reddit, Officer Reddit had found a balloon that was a Batman balloon that has that weird chevron shape to it. Yes, with the pointed, yeah. Yeah, there you go. I remember that. Mystery solved. But listen, in the case, both things can be true. One of the things we've talked about over the years, you know, just because lots of balloons get reported as UAP doesn't mean that UAP videos don't exist. Or in this case, UAP captured by multiple sophisticated sensor platforms. Yeah, but it was just a reflection on the canopy. Perhaps. Listen, okay, we're going to look into this a little bit further, but I want to leave you, I saw a movie recently I told you about, Scott. But I think I had a great quote that is somewhat space related, but it's a Korean produced movie on Netflix, I think from just last year, called Good News, which is about a real incident of Japanese terrorists taking over a plane. And the Korean authorities convincing them to, you know, that they landed actually in Seoul at Kempo Airport, not in North Korea where they wanted to go. And apparently had didn't know, didn't look into what that was actually going to be like. But the idea was that there's a Korean, you know, KCIA, so he's a Korean CIA officer who's kind of trying to manage the narrative here. And what he tells one of the young radar operators who they're trying to convince to go along with this is that the truth may lie on the dark side of the moon, but that doesn't mean what you see on the near side is fiction. So there can be, like I said, both things can be true is that, yeah, the real story is on the back and there might be a narrative on the front or what you see apparently, but it doesn't mean it's all made up. There's a bit of mix or sometimes that can become the truth. So keep an open mind as we go through this. Scott and I are always trying to gain every advantage we can, especially when it comes to our health and performance. And by health and performance, I mean just trying to muster enough energy, stress management and focus to get through making the show and then doing everything else in our lives that needs doing. Ain't that the truth. Especially as we get older, those qualities are in shorter and shorter supply. Yeah. Next thing you know, we'll be in a commercial enjoying smooth jazz and tapas at a winery in our middle age. And sure, we all want that kind of vigor and vitality, and I'll bet your feeds are as flooded with supplement ads as much as mine, but where do you start? Well, I think good health starts with good habits. A lot of it is about consistency and not perfection, because as we know, perfection is the enemy of completion, or in this case, a healthy regimen. Right. You also need to simplify your nutrition routine to help ensure you stick with it, and that's the sustainable part. That's why we've started taking AG1. AG1 is all of your multivitamin, superfoods, pre- and probiotics, and antioxidants in just one scoop. Yeah, I need simple, not complex, when it comes to a nutrition routine, and AG1 is the opposite of complexity. In just 20 seconds, with one scoop of AG1, eight ounces of cold water, mix and drink, and that's it. It's the first thing I do when I get up, before my coffee and before booting the computer, and it's what they call a micro habit, which angers the rest of my day. And I think it tastes pretty good, which greatly helps with me sticking with it. Yeah, it actually does taste pretty good. I've just started this, and I love it, and I think you will, too. By the way, AG1 now comes in original, citrus, berry, and tropical. My favorite is tropical, but experiment with the flavors. They're all delicious. Now, we've just started the AG1 routine, but we're eagerly anticipating some healthy results, which we'll report back on. And with AG1's next-gen formula, they've added more vitamins and minerals than ever, which are clinically proven to fill common nutrient gaps. AG1 has over 50,000 verified five-star reviews and comes with a 90-day money-back guarantee. Go to drinkag1.com slash legends to get their best offer. For a limited time only, get a free AG1 duffel bag and free AG1 welcome kit with your first subscription order. Only while supplies last. That's drinkag1.com slash legends. drinkag1.com slash legends. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. So, it's now a new year, which means new opportunities for all of us. And if you're like me, there are a few, maybe too many, self-improvement goals on your resolutions list. You know, creating that new you so you can live your best life and all that. But here's something profound to think about. Just because it's a new year doesn't mean you need to be a new person to feel better about yourself. Maybe base model you is just fine. You just need to unburden yourself with the unnecessary things that are weighing you down so you can feel lighter, more energetic, and inspired. Yeah, I like that idea. A less is more kind of approach. Trust us, we get it. We all have things that weigh us down. And change, especially a change to ourselves, can be scary. But that's what we're talking about. Not piling on more obligations, but stripping away the things that we don't need anymore. And it will take a little bit of courage in the darkness. But taking a step and signing up for therapy with BetterHelp can shine a light on what's been weighing you down and lead you out of that tunnel. And that small act of courage can deliver big results. Like they say, you can't reach your goals without first making space for them. Yeah, and for myself, I know the last couple of years I've been weighed down by worries of what if, and how is this going to play out, and how long will this go on? And what's needed is an objective, unbiased, but informed viewpoint to lift one out of that overwhelming spiral. It is kind of like that Zen concept of seeing yourself from a higher vantage point, so you can be present and have insight on the future. Yeah, and I think when you're talking about informed viewpoints, to me, that means quality therapists. And BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the U.S. And like with any service provider, finding the right one can make all the difference. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, and their 12-plus years of experience and industry-leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. And if you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recommendations. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works, with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. You can't step into a lighter version of yourself without leaving behind what's been weighing you down. Therapy can help you clear space. Sign up and get 10% off at BetterHelp.com slash Astonishing. That's BetterHelp.com slash Astonishing. I'm Dreen from Estonia, and you're listening to Astonishing Legends with Scott Philbrook and Forrest Burgess. Now, back to the show. Just a refresher here. The Tic Tac incident, which we'll have a link to in our show notes. I mean, the whole world has seen it by now. I have to think that most of you that are listening have seen it. That did not go into the water, to be clear. It didn't splash, as they say in the military. Others have, though. Remember that other famous- That's right, and that's coming up. Yeah, the other Naval Observation Sensor camera did pick up something, and they did say it's splash, no. That's right. Object splash. That's right. But yes, in this case, to be clear, it was observed flying through the air. That's right. Why are we talking about it then, Scott, if you're saying it didn't touch the water? We just wanted to lay out how the tech worked, because the tech is at similar levels, but some cases, different devices. But I wanted to make it clear that these things, when they are picked up by the gear that's on these ships, it's not an anomaly, and it's not a glitch, and it's multiple systems. And then on top of that, what's going to happen later is we're going to tie together how all these craft may be operating, whether they're in the air or passing into the water or just in the water or not, because it could all be one form of technology that we don't understand, but it might be one kind of device. So we'll be talking about it. There's not a lot of reasons sometimes and rationale in these kinds of discussions that you see online. But again, we hear folks like Mick West talking about how these sensors work, and he has a basic working knowledge of that. And you have people for that and against that. And I was thinking like, oh, you know what? Who I'd really love to hear from is one of the engineers who works at Raytheon. Talk about this. Let's have a real expert who put this thing together and really knows what all the buttons do on it. But they're not allowed. Exactly. That's my next point here is that you're not going to hear from them. Just like people make the silly observation, I think, when they say, everybody's just talking about anecdotes. Like, you haven't seen anything yet. It's like, you're not going to, genius. They're not going to say like, well, okay, here are the alien pieces. There you go. And that's the proof. And I understand it's frustrating. Everybody wants the proof, not just a story. But you have to work up to that. That doesn't come out on the table right away. So these sensor capabilities, they've been in operation since 1983, right? Yeah. They've been around since then. In fact, the spy system, I thought it was going to be newer than that. But the technology, actually, I think it was developed. I'm sure it's growing by leaps and bounds annually. But I think it was considered to be developed in the cycle of work that happened in the 70s. And then it was deployed in the 80s. So, but, you know, of course, it's getting better and better every year. And wouldn't it be ironic if some of that was reverse engineered alien tech? It certainly would be. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the fact, right? That's the fact. So now we're going to go from these hard facts and jump over to a more anecdotal recent incident. And there are folks out there who are like, oh, anecdotal doesn't count. I'm doing an impression of a friend of mine. Yeah. But sometimes anecdotal is interesting, and we've covered over the years a ton of topics where all we had was anecdotal evidence because it was a long time ago and everybody was dead that had anything to do with it. And to our bug-eared friend, you know, to that point, it's not anecdotal when it happens to you. That's the... Right, right. That's what you're not getting, right. Right. So it has value taken with a grain of salt. But with anecdotal evidence, context is absolutely critical. Right. So now this brings us to the one dude, we weren't really expecting to be the most outspoken disclosure-oriented member of Congress in history, but that's... He's become a bit of a star in this field here. Yes, he has. That's Representative Tim Burchett of Tennessee. Yes. Sarah, will you please play that clip? Well, the last thing he told me was they're real. He said they're real. It was just me and him talking in a doorway, actually. And he described sonar readings of something. And I believe it was described as large as a football field. And the speeds were just something that we're not even close to being able to do underwater. It wasn't thousands of miles an hour. It was in the realm of a couple hundred miles an hour. But still, I think the closest thing we've got is something that does close to 40 miles an hour, maybe, or 45, something like that. I don't know. Maybe some of our secret apparatus. But anyway, and this is not the first time this has happened. And I've talked to others that have said the exact same thing. People that were on a ship or on a sub, that's something. And they had weird pings, things that showed up. And then they moved at such a speed that it was just not, it was just not fathomable. Okay, so he's repeated this on dozens of news platforms. It's been all over. His story has not changed. But are we talking about something that's truly anecdotal in that relaying of accepted fact by a certain group, an authoritative group, is... With no names. Right. And then that's, I get it. And then this goes to our argument here. People are frustrated with that. Like, you're starting to hear some names, but you're just, you're not going to get it all. And you're going to be okay with that. Or just stop trying to argue the obvious here. So in that light, you know, there are some debunkers that will say they're, you know, these are disinformation talking points. And that's the other thing that I, you know, look, I don't know, but you see everybody getting fingers pointed at them as being disinformation agents. Right. And you could just play that game forever. It's like, okay, there's Richard Doty and he's coming out and talking about stuff. But, you know, he was a disinformation agent. That was his job with AFOSI, the Air Force. That was Lou Elizondo's job too. Right. So, but now they're telling the truth. You know, look, is they will say, we're laying this out. You believe what you want. Yeah. And because like, again, it's like, that's exactly what they would want you to believe. That just, it's a logic loop that just kind of goes on forever. So, but why then would these misinformation agents put out this misinformation or this information at all? So here are some common concepts around that. Is it to confuse foreign military powers about what may be out there, what our capabilities are, maybe convince them that their sensors pick something up seemingly otherworldly, that it's non-human intelligence. It's not us, not us testing our new equipment. The other perspective is that maybe Burchett believes all this stuff, but he's a disinformation pawn being manipulated by this unnamed admiral and the military apparatus for similar reasons to what Forrest just said, but he's just not in on it. Or the admiral is the pawn sharing info with Burchett. It's, I don't know. It's true. The U.S. Navy doesn't know what it is and the secrecy around it is so airtight and above black classified that he can only speak anonymously to what he perceives as a friendly member of Congress. Right. And they're not read in, as the popular phrase would say now, to everything. And I think there is a handful of people that really do know the whole backstory. And then if you take that up a layer, that cabal of ultimate secret knowledge, then there's a non-human intelligence apparatus or consortium that knows even more, that hasn't relayed that to us humans yet. And so it just goes on forever. Like you're always going to be chasing your tail. So again, I think you could take this all in. You can believe what you want to, but there are things though that are accepted. And so that's what we're talking about here as far as what the Navy knows and what's been revealed. It's not a debate anymore about if, it is what, and then the why. And that's the big philosophical question is the why. Why is this happening now? What do they want? So again, if the United States Navy doesn't know what it is and the secrecy around it is so airtight and it's something he can only speak about with anonymous sources, then why do it at all? You know what I'm saying? Like there is, then there's that other argument of like, well, you just sound ridiculous when you can't give us details. So why do this at all? Well, they believe at the very least, if there's no physical danger you're putting yourself into, there's career danger. It's all career killer stuff. So again, why do it? And people say like, well, you're making millions of clicks. It's like, I don't, there does not appear to be evidence for that. Right. Representative Burchett also acknowledges, you know, something that was discussed extensively in George Knapp and Colm Kelleher's book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, which we covered quite a bit and we refer to a lot. And we remember if you, we interviewed them. That's right. And that was terrific. But this is something, again, this now, there are layers to this alien onion and the deeper inner layers now, or we're at the core of this, does go from paranormal to supernatural in a way. And I mean, spiritual. So what's at the core of this is that we've heard mention of this and people, if you follow this at all, you certainly have heard about this. There is a core group that was investigating this early on in the 60s and 70s, and that is, there is a belief by fundamentalist Christians that are in government that all this mysterious tech is connected to angels and demons, or let's say supernatural beings. Yeah. In a sense, ethereal. And just kind of don't mess with it. Don't touch it and don't talk about it. Right. Yeah. And I'm glad you brought up the fact that George and Colm were on our show. That was January of 2022. They came on to talk about their book, Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. And there's an excerpt from that that we wanted to share with you. If you look at the history of UFOs and government, I would say there are four fundamental horsemen of the apocalypse. If you want to look at it like this from the perspective of how the United States government has treated UFOs, number one is fear. There's a tremendous level of fear in the United States government. Second thing is careerism. Is the UFO topic going to harm or is it going to elevate my career? And I can leave you to answer that question. Third fundamental part of this is fundamental Christianity. There's a lot of fundamentalism throughout the United States government, both at the level of the intelligence agencies and elsewhere. And there's a direct negative correlation between UFOs and fundamentalist Christianity. And the fourth horseman of the apocalypse, of course, is incompetence. Individual people in the United States government are brilliant. But in terms of groupthink and how a program like a UFO program can progress, it's very, very difficult to progress in the face of those four hurdles. It's very difficult. Let me add this. Since the New York Times story and all the subsequent coverage, 60 Minutes and others, have sort of made it more respectable to look at this topic, you've seen this parade of former high-level intelligence officials, agency heads, who've come out and said, yeah, we really do need to look at this. This is a serious matter. It might have national security implications. And you can figure out who I'm talking about. But there's four or five of them that have come forward. They had a much different opinion about this behind closed doors when Colm and Robert Bigel were trying to keep this program together. So you might ask, what is, when he says program, what's the program they're referring to there? That is the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, or AATIP, as it later got referred to on a billion different places, which was under the umbrella of AASAP, or the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program. The difference between the two is that AASAP was classified, so they couldn't put it in that famous 2017 New York Times front page article. So they came up with AATIP, which was the portion of the program they could refer to by an unclassified name. Anyway, look for episode 225 of Astonishing Legends. It's called Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. If you want more information on that, also, that book is super compelling. We'll have a link to it in the show notes. And speaking of that book, and I can't remember the context right now. I wish I could, but somebody, maybe it was George Knapp himself, was talking about, or it could have been a famed whistleblower, David Grush. Oh, it might have been in Iraq at the time when there was, in the green zone, back during all the happenings in Baghdad there, that at the pool, a lot of intelligence people and military officers were reading that book. Oh, right. That's right. That was a hot topic back then. Yeah. But why did we play this clip here? Well, because Birchit brings up the fundamental Christian viewpoint about all this stuff, whether it's in the air or underwater, on a lot of the interviews where he talks about these USOs or UAP. And he makes a point to acknowledge that perspective and stay respectful of it. But on more than a few of those interviews, when I looked at it, it almost seems like he's scared of it or scared of that group of people to me. And I'm just reading into it. It's a little strange. He gets a certain look when he's like, now I totally respect that. And that's fine if they want to believe that. But I'm just saying, you know. Again, maybe respect to the people behind that who have apparently a lot of power, because we're talking about people with, if they have just the technology behind them are extremely powerful and can reach out and touch you in ways you don't want to be touched. Yeah. And if it's some kind of phenomenon, because again, if you read Skinwalkers at the Pentagon, what you realize is that there is that spooky action at a distance, and you get hitchhikers following you. And sometimes you have health problems that go with that and things you don't want. And so it's not just nuts and bolts. We're beyond that too. There is something that's, they're omnipotent in a way, omniscient. They have, we're the cockroach to their human being. What you find, I think this is, this could be a whole series on its own. And maybe we'll cover this one day, although it's very touchy. Like I said, I'm a little hesitant about diving too deeply into this, but that is one of the main branches of this thought experiment tree here in that there is a connection to spiritual beings and that ultimately it is a war between good and evil. And look, if it's, if you're just talking about beings from somewhere else, you know, it doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to figure that there are some beings as there are nations here and there's bad actors here who don't have your best interests at heart and they want to exploit you and even harm you for their own gain. And, and then in the middle, as we've talked about this before, there are ones who are just totally neutral, indifferent about our gain or our suffering. And then there are some who probably want to help us. Like I said, that's the nuts and bolts part of it. That just, there are beings, but are we talking about then unseen spiritual forces going on? And you don't have to get biblical about it, but certainly the Bible comes into this as well. But are we talking about just interdimensional unseen forces at play here and at war? So that gets even deeper or higher or more to the core of it. But to set that aside for the moment, there's more to this than just the USOs. Or is there any difference between USOs and UAPs, as we said at the beginning here? So there's this idea of a base that's underwater that comes up or multiple bases. And why wouldn't there be? Because we're still talking about them coming from a place, but it may not be the place that we traditionally think about, which is like Mars in the 50s. Everything came from Mars. Right, right, right. And now is it closer to home? And I have mixed feelings about the ideas of bases. I mean, we're going to get into that more before this episode's over, but it's at once both a significant military and political concept, the idea of a base, but it's also this kind of childish Bane, you know, playground idea. Here's my base here, you know, all your base are belong to us, you know, that's tribalist kind of humanity stuff. But so I guess the question is aliens, or maybe they aren't aliens. Maybe they're here. Maybe there's no interdimensionality to these things at all, to what we're talking about. That's not necessary. Maybe they're already here and maybe they do have a base and their base do not belong to us. It belongs to them right now. We don't even know where it is. Yeah. As we said, the opening, it's again, a perfect place to hide. And if you, again, I think for our feeble human minds, it's easier to accept something like this is an airplane. It goes through the sky. This is a ship or submarine. It go in the water and you can't mix the two. And it goes from point A to point B and it lives here when it's not working. Right. It lives at this spot. Yeah. But there's also, again, even if they're spiritual, there is a physicality to this phenomenon that it presents itself in the physical material world. So there is craft. Now, are they all the same for all the probable multiple species of extraterrestrial visitors out there or interdimensional beings, whatever they are? Then does there have to be a place where they're docked or do they have to operate? It's not just an imaginary liminal space. Or manufactured or maintained or refueled or whatever. Exactly. And I think also our feeble thinking has us believing like, well, this is a pretty new phenomenon. You know, this didn't really, you know, it started with Roswell 47 before that, right at the end of World War II. There was an Italian craft that was recovered when we invaded Italy. Is that the magenta? Yeah. Yeah. We looked into that and we might be because that was another, that's another big one that's not often, it's being talked about more. There's a big thing about to come out about it. I don't think you know. I saw an article on Medium yesterday that I will forward to you that seems like something very cool is about to come out about magenta, actually. Right. So then you think like, well, why does it have to have a starting point that's something that's more 20th century that we can understand? It's like, well, then why wouldn't these things have been here maybe before humans? Is it that hard to imagine? Well, you know, would aliens need this kind of thing? And maybe they aren't aliens. Maybe, you know, that's another theory, again, that we've talked about quite a bit. Are they us in the future? Or something else? Just here before us. Right. We got to the party before we did. Who knows? But I mean, I guess, you know, would aliens have basis too? Well, I don't know. If they do, maybe they aren't about congregating, organization, or even concealment, but maybe they're about harvesting energy to function. Here's an idea. That's part of it. You know, something we mentioned, I think, in a DLO is the harvesting of human emotional energy. Oh, yeah. Of course you're going there. That one creeps me out. DLO, by the way, is our dead letter office. Our dead letter office. Yes, but it has to do, what is it, Reverend Nigel Farnsworth. I think this was on one of Jim Harreld's interviews of the Paranormal Podcast, but because then again, the bigger questions that these all lead to is, what do they want? If they have all this technology, what do they need from us at all? If they wanted our natural resources, you know, why not just wipe us off the planet because we're getting in the way and just take it all for themselves? Well, maybe they have been using some of that, but obviously in a way that's not been too noticeable for us. So is it us as humans themselves as a species? And then, okay, let's suppose that for a second. Well, what is it about us? Can't they clone us? Well, perhaps. Is their race dying? Do they need to hybridize with us? Is there something about us that's special? Well, we have our flesh and blood, and then there's the soul energy aspect of that, which if you believe, if you go down that road, then it's eternal. And that's something that the soul harvesting is another way, way out there concept, but being able to harvest that soul energy. And then there's, I think there's a Y files about, you know, what's on the moon. Is that, is that a beacon for collecting the soul energy? And it has to do with reincarnation of souls. Yes, he did do a show on that. Yeah, and it's just, it's fascinating, but it is way, way out there. Well, it's the first week of the new year. You feeling hungover? Um, fortunately my body isn't, but more unfortunately my wallet is. And I say more unfortunately because a spending hangover in January can last the whole year. And I'll admit, I did a fair amount of retail therapy this past holiday season. And when the bills come later this month, uh, so will that I overdid it queasiness. But one hangover cure for a bloated budget is counting on a break for the things you have to spend on and don't need to overspend on. Ah, yes, like your wireless bill. 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With affordable tuition and over 200 flexible online programs, APU helps you gain the skills and confidence to move forward. Whether you're changing careers, starting fresh, or pursuing a lifelong passion, our programs are designed for people who never stop. You bring the fire? We have traveled great distances to study your celestial orb and the species upon it. When we are not scrutinizing data we have researched, we are listening to astonishing legends. End transmission. Let's reel this back down to normal USOs and UAPs. Well, in terms of things relating to our topic tonight, we have to talk about Aguadilla, Puerto Rico, this incident from April 25th, 2013. This is one of those cases that for a long time was considered the gold standard for transmedium travel. You had thermal footage from a U.S. Customs and Border Protection DHC-8 aircraft tracking an object that seemed to defy physics. And I must have watched this clip a hundred times. Yeah. It's mesmerizing. Yeah. It's a really compelling piece of video. If you watch this thermal signature cruising along and then right on the tape, it appears to split into two separate distinct objects. We've heard that a lot. We've seen the shape shifting of things splitting apart, several objects merging into one. That's the Merkava, perhaps, aspect of it. Like it's a fluid kind of more than nuts and bolts kind of an object. It's fluid. It might be sentient. But the kicker here is that the part that everyone focuses on is that it seems to plunge right into the Atlantic Ocean and then pop back out without slowing down and then without creating a splash or a wake. Now, that is the definition of the transmedium capability that will be at the heart of tonight's show. Yeah. And it certainly looks that way. Like that's what's happening to the naked eye when you watch it. But I'm saying when you watch the video, not necessarily the naked eye that was present for it. But we have to look at the official breakdown on this one. Specifically, the case resolution report released by AAROR. They did a full reconstruction using systems toolkit software, and their conclusion is pretty mundane. They assessed with high confidence that there was no anomalous behavior here. Well, why don't you explain then what AAROR is or A-A-R-O? Right. So that stands for the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office. It was established back in July of 2022 with the Department of Defense replacing the previous task forces. And the branding change is important here. They swapped AAREL for All Domain and Anomalous. So prior to that, it was just AAREL. And because they finally acknowledged that these things aren't just in the sky. So now the DOD definition of UAP now explicitly includes airborne, seaborne, space-borne, and then crucially for our discussion on USO's transmedium objects. And their mandate is to ostensibly use a rigorous scientific framework, which that's what people are expecting. That's how you should go about it. And then a data-driven approach to resolve these sightings. You need a baseline. You can't just go willy-nilly about this. Right. So in November of 2024, they delivered their annual report to Congress. And they had said that between May of 2023 and June 2024, AAREL or ARO received 757 UAP reports. That brings their total caseload to over 1,600 incidents as of June of 2024. Yeah, that makes for a massive data set. But the question is, what are they doing with it? Because if you listen to the current director, Dr. John Kozlowski, the conclusion is always the same. This is a quote here. To date, AAREL has not discovered any verifiable evidence of extraterrestrial beings, activity, or technology. That is exactly why Dr. Shonker Patrick got so much flack, because that was always the case. It's like, really? Nothing? Okay. Well, I mean, they are identified. That's true. Kozlowski testified that a vast majority of the resolve cases turned out to be balloons, drones, UAS, unmanned aerial systems, or satellites, specifically flaring from mega constellations like Starlink. Right. But we're seeing more of that and getting used to that visual sight. You know, so they're all in a line, right? They're not willy-nilly. The balls of light don't go flicking around. And then you have folks like Rear Admiral Tim Gallaudet testifying under oath that AAREL isn't just investigating. They're actually actively managing the narrative about all this. Remember what I said a little bit before? Yeah. A lot of it's about, especially in these kind of a CIA realms, these alphabet company realms here. It's also about managing the narrative, which is just as important as the objects that are harvested and collected. So Gallaudet claimed that during a meeting with AAREL leadership, he was subjected to an influence operation, which is a term they use, where they'd try to convince him that the famous Nimitz Tic Tac case was actually American technology and tried to discredit other whistleblowers. Yeah, that's a heavy accusation coming from a former admiral, and he's not the only one frustrated. Representative Nancy Mace went after them for a lack of transparency, noting that even AAREL's budget is kept secret from the public. It's hard to trust an organization that claims to be about transparency when you can't even see their price tag. Right. And that's the blue book vibe all over again. So you have whistleblowers like the one behind the Immaculate Constellation report claiming that AAREL is essentially a filter. The allegation is that the really good stuff, you know, the high fidelity imagery, the crash retrieval program, all that is sequestered in unacknowledged special access programs, USAPs, that AAREL either doesn't have access to or is complicit in hiding. And then Sean Kirkpatrick, who we just mentioned, the former head of AAREL, denied these programs exist. But if they are unacknowledged, he might not even have the need to know. So AAREL is the public facing desk. They handle the balloons and the Starlink flares, and then they tell Congress there's nothing to see. That's exactly right. And then they resolve the anomalies they can't explain. And the ones they can't, well, you know, those might be just getting logged and dogged. The term, like phrase I like, you know, just in some black vault somewhere else, which shout out to our friend, John Greenwald of the Black Vault, who's been running that for like 15, 20 years now. Yes. Very, very long time. He's going to come up a few times tonight, actually. But yeah, I know that AAREL came down hard on the Aguadilla video, but how do they explain the speed? So in the video, that thing looks like it's booking it across the coastline. They attribute that to motion parallax. The camera is on an aircraft that is banking and zooming in. And the reconstruction they did showed that the object was actually drifting at about eight miles per hour, which was consistent with the wind speed and direction that night. Basically, the background is moving fast because the plane is moving fast, making the object look like it's speeding. At least that's what they said. Okay. Well, and parallax is a real phenomenon. You know, I'll grant you that. But then what about the water entry? So you can see it go dark as it hits the water. You know, Sky Lantern, which is what they think this is, that would extinguish if it hit the ocean. Would it not? Putting out the flight. Yes, but Arrow argues it never actually entered the water. And this is the thing I have the hardest time with. They call it thermal crossover. Essentially, as the object drifted out over the ocean, its thermal signature became virtually identical to the background temperature of the water. So when the sensor couldn't distinguish the heat difference, the object appeared to vanish or submerge, but it was really just a loss of contrast. I'm following you here. So their stance is that we are looking at a pair of wedding balloons or sky lanterns drifting in the wind. And that's a pretty tidy explanation. Wraps everything up, right? But it feels like we are being told not to believe our lying eyes. And the video shows a split. They address that too. They claim it was always two objects drifting near each other. And the change in the sensor's look angle just made them finally appear distinct later in the video. Now, I know that's not the answer people want, including me. And I'm still not sure I believe it, especially with the Puerto Rico Trench being such a hotspot for gravity anomalies and other strangeness. But their story is plausible. It's just so hard to watch that video and think those things are disappearing just because they became the exact same temperature as the ocean behind them on camera when they got out over the water. That seems a little bizarre to me. Right. And I have to take a side note here just to remark how funny and ironic it is to me that here we're debating what's on a video and if it's real or not versus there are claims that craft have been recovered. Right. So you see where I'm going here with it's like we're debating like is this video real? It's like, well, is this thing in the hangar real? Well, that's a whole other level. That's another hot topic now that's buzzing around the feeds is crash retrieval programs. But here, in this case, it points to a very convenient dismissal of data that to me really doesn't fit the model. Skylanterns don't usually travel miles out to sea and maintain formation like that. But if we accept the arrow report, we can scratch this one off the list. OK, so that there you go. We're removing problematic things. And if we don't remove it, it remains one of the best pieces of evidence for something hiding in our oceans. Yeah, but again, Burchett is on the news talking about unnamed admirals saying this stuff is real. This is very different from military sensor data on encounters. And we want to be clear, we're not conflating those two things. We're acknowledging that anecdotes are at the root of all folklore and legend, but complex technical data supporting eyewitness testimony by military personnel who've come forward or otherwise been verified is completely different. Yeah, and that brings us to the case of the USS Omaha. And this is not an anecdote. Yeah. This is just six years ago in 2019. That's right. So the Nimitz incident is now almost 20 years old, but this is an ongoing situation. That's the point we're trying to illustrate here. And one of the most compelling pieces of recent evidence, the one that really drove home this idea of objects moving seamlessly between air and water involves the USS Omaha. Right. So for this case, this happened in July, 2019, the Omaha was off the coast of San Diego. And when it comes to what the Pentagon refers to as transmedium phenomena, this one is critical and not even remotely anecdotal. Yeah. This wasn't some blurry photo or a single eyewitness account. This was captured on, again, military grade equipment. In this case, electro-optical infrared, E-O-I-R cameras on board the Omaha. That's what you see when you see this footage online, which anybody can see online, including at our links for this episode. It's essentially a sophisticated camera system that can capture both visible light and infrared light like the Atfleer. Right. The system allowed the crew to visually track the object and its infrared capabilities would have confirmed the lack of any heat plume or conventional propulsion signature, much like the Atfleer we spoke about on the FAA-18s during the Nimitz encounter. And just to be clear, the Pentagon confirmed the authenticity of this video footage, stating it was indeed captured by Navy personnel, and the video itself has been widely circulated and confirmed. It shows this dark metallic sphere flying along, sometimes hovering, against the twilight sky. It has no discernible wings, no exhaust, no visible means of propulsion. That means there are no control surfaces. I was about to say that. Yeah, and then suddenly it just plummets and it drops straight down and plunges directly into the Pacific Ocean. And then this here is what really sets it apart. There's no splash. None. It just disappears into the water as if the surface isn't even there. Exactly. And the personnel on the Omaha weren't just watching this. They immediately tried to locate it. They deployed a submarine to the area where the object entered the water. And what did the sub find? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It was gone. It had vanished. And as a quick side note about how this might happen, I was inspired. I had an inspired thought today from a clip you sent, which we're going to talk about later. And what I'm thinking is that, how is it moving through the mediums, the transmediums here? Right. How's it moving through the water like that? I thought, maybe it's not the craft's capability. You don't know the exact terminology. Hunt for Red October, Scott. Worm propulsion. Oh. It's a caterpillar drive, right? From Hunt for Red October. Magneto-hydrodynamic drive system. Right. That's a real thing. I mean, it's in the book. Yeah. Yeah, but that's a real theoretical. That's what I'm saying. It's a real propulsion that has amazing capabilities in that you cannot pick it up. Right. On sensor. Right. And so, how does that work? Well, here, it's a craft manipulating how it's getting through the water. And what I'm thinking is that, how does something enter the water at that speed and not make a splash? Yeah. Because I think it's manipulating the medium around it. That's right. So, put a pin on that, as they say. Yes, yes, yes. But anyway, getting back to what they saw on the sub, nothing. This isn't a case of, you know, we saw something strange and then we lost it. This is, we saw something strange. We watched it go into the water and then we searched an area with our most advanced submersibles and it just was not there. It was just simply gone. Yeah. So, a solid object, spherical in shape, defies physics by moving through air and into water, then completely vanishes despite being tracked by multiple witnesses and military assets. This is incredibly difficult to explain with any known human technology. Unlike the Nimitz incident where the SPY-1 radar was central to initial detecting and tracking, the public focus for Omaha is on the visual confirmation via the EOIR, the infrared, and the subsequent lack of sonar detection. And when I say public focus, what we're talking about there is what the military is willing to reveal about one of the ways they use to track it. It's completely plausible that they had other technology that was also involved in tracking it that they're not revealing because it's classified. But they're happy to say, yeah, we have infrared cameras and they saw it. Yeah, because everybody knows what infrared is. Look, I have no doubt that there are capabilities here in technologies that are, let's say, not UFO level, but that we're not being told about, of course. That would just be tactical prudence not to divulge everything we're talking about. And they're very, as you said before, you kind of mentioned it, they don't tell you about anything about subs at all, rarely. And so that's super secret. It's the silent service, as they call it. Yes. Well, this story here broke thanks to our polarizing friend, Jeremy Corbell, who's been at the forefront of these verified military leaks. He released the Omaha video in 2021, along with a few others. That's right. And there's folks out there who seem to give him a hard time, but he's always been honest with us. And one of the things he does very carefully is take his time verifying sources. He will sit on videos and sensor data for years if it takes that long to make sure it's authentic. And people can be critical of his style and methods, but this is a perfect example of him releasing something. Tons of people commenting on it and saying it's fake, it's not real, or it's not what it appears to be. Only to have the Pentagon eventually come out and be like, oh, yeah, this happened, it's real. Yeah, that's right. The Pentagon, through spokesperson Susan Goff, confirmed the footage was indeed taken by Navy personnel and was part of ongoing investigations by the UAP task force. And then the other part of this that's critical to remember is that on the Omaha, a lot of Navy personnel were involved in tracking the object that splashed. Those are eyewitnesses, again, on top of the sensory data layer. Now, I'll just add this. I don't know if you have this in your bullet point notes here, but I saw an interview with the radar technician at the time. I remember when that came out. I didn't see it, but I remember when that came out. Yeah. And I'm trying to remember where I saw this. This might have been, I think we're going to talk about this too, George Knapp's documentary series, Investigation Alien, on Netflix. Uh, but the, in the interview, he says that as soon as that incident happened, some mysterious officer looking guys suddenly showed up. I think by, I think the Admiral had typed something up or there was a, there's an email with instructions from the Admiral. And I'm sorry if I'm not getting this right, but those hard drives that all that data was on, they took with them. They just showed up by a helicopter, landed, took that data. Uh, uh, the email from the, uh, either from the captain, uh, or one of the commanders on there, uh, just was gone like the next day. Yeah. Like it just didn't happen. Don't talk about this. And they never saw. Oh yeah. It disappeared off of all the servers. I did read about that. Yeah. There was an email out that went out and said that there was a, or there was another email where it was like, we're having a danger of collisions during operations. Uh, that an Admiral received. And that one also was like disappeared off of everybody's email inbox that it had gone to the next day. Yeah. It's not hard to disappear an email, certainly for them, but they physically had to show up and take the drives. Yeah. In this case. Yeah. And so it just seems like a little bit more effort than would be necessary if it were a Batman balloon. Right. Mylar or not. Yeah. And as this account states, uh, primarily from Jeremy, whom we consider a reliable source, the Navy deployed some kind of submerged vehicle of their own to track this thing after it went into the water. Now they're understandably vague about what exactly that was because that would give away tactics and capabilities most likely. So we don't know if it was a U S submarine was already in the area, or I think more likely they rapidly deployed a small, um, ROV or remote submersible, but you'd have to imagine that they'd be capable. Of acting very quickly in a scenario like this. That's the whole point of the USS Omaha. It is to track stuff like this instantly and follow it and whatever, disarm or capture it because what it's built for is identifying enemy threats. And this one is outside the scope of, of what they're expecting. Yeah. You know, but whatever the Navy had under the water with this thing, it was likely already on site or close by almost immediately. And we're admitting that, yes, this is conjecture and it couldn't find it basically. So yeah, whether it was still there or not, or just cloaked, we don't know. Uh, the vagaries around that component of the search are really irrelevant to the fact that the Pentagon confirmed the incident happened and was ultimately unresolved in terms of figuring out what they really encountered. Right. So this again, isn't just an internet rumor. This isn't anecdotal evidence. This isn't a story. This isn't a Reddit post from an anonymous person. This is the U S department of defense confirming that these kinds of trans medium vehicles defying our understanding of physics are being encountered by our Navy and then disappearing into the vastness of the ocean, leaving no trace. Now, as we said at the top of the show, we got to move past whether or not these things exist and onto what the hell are they? And more importantly, how long have they been here? All right. So we've demonstrated what the U S Navy is capable of recording across various sensors and eyewitnesses, but there's so much more to this astonishing story and an angle that I'll be the first to confess. I hadn't really thought about until we started working on this. Well, why is that Scott? Well, I guess because I've never been a defense contractor or in the military. No, but you have the mind of an engineer. That's one thing I appreciate about you. I am definitely a closeted engineer. I did start out studying that in college before I changed for some reason to post-production. So right. But then one day we'll have to hear about your, your novel invention for a baby buggy that goes downstairs. Oh yes, I did. I did. I think that got invented by Dean Kamen, and the same guy that invented the Segway came up with that same thing later. That's right. It was, it was, it was ingenious, but, but we both share a love for is a spy novels and spy craft. And you have read a lot of Tom Clancy and Robert Ludlum. Yeah. I think I'd be pretty good spy if, except for the physical prowess part. Oh, I see. No, I'll, you know, most analysts, you know, they're behind a desk. So you'd be a terrific analyst. That's true. That's true. So in any case, well, you know, we did uncover an interesting angle to this story and, and we know so far, we've only talked about a couple of incidents. We started with those because they are, well, the most recent and best documented, I think. And, and we'll be getting to other incidents as we get closer to the end of the episode, but the angle that required a tangent or I guess a pit stop was the one about reverse engineering. Because as we're going along here, I also had that thought, as I alluded to earlier, wouldn't it be ironic if all this tech that we're using came from UFO crash retrievals and, and reverse engineering. And that, I think he may have been the first one to suggest that it was a major Philip Corso. Yes. The day after Roswell, you know, things that you use every day now that suddenly there was a technology boom, but yes. Talk about that buzzword that we all love. Yeah. Well, it's been around since the dawn of ufology and conspiracy theorists love it. They say humanity has been reverse engineering tech from recovered UAP or maybe even USOs for a long time now. I wonder about that. Something we talked about, you know, DuPont patented mylar just a few years after Roswell. Well, you know, some people thought that the, the microwave oven came from that supposed crash as well. I think that was in Corso's book perhaps. Yeah. But current historical information points to an engineer at Raytheon working on the idea in 1945. We're talking about the, the radar range it was known. If you're of our specific age group, you'll remember Amana. Yeah. We had one at my family's beach place. Yeah. And if you think about it, it does. We turned it on. It was, you know, nobody could talk because it was so loud. It like, and it had a dial on the, a big dial. Yep. That I loved. Looked like a speedometer out of a Ford Futura. Yeah. It's, well, it's look, if you're, if you're old enough to remember your, your TV dial was mechanical. Yeah. And what I loved about that is when HBO first came out and you had a set top box as your tuner, it was a mechanical tuner and you could hack it with a, with a matchbook. There you go. Yeah. Show me. But, but think of it this way is that it's invisible, but it's energy flying through the airwaves. And just a quick aside when my dad, he had a great anecdote as he was a photographer in the army and you know, that's back when they used flash bulbs before all this digital stuff. And they had the old cameras, you know, you see a Ouija use, you know, the, the old four by fives. And this guy was running to photograph something. And as they used to do as a habit, they would have a bunch of flash bulbs in their cargo pants and in their pockets. And he accidentally ran by a radar dish and they all went off at once and burned the cramp out of them. So. Oh my gosh. Well, yeah, there's a lot of power, even though you can't see it, but that's what we're talking about here with technology that seemed implausible. And so perhaps it's something, again, not just the seeds of it, because I do think also a lot of times there's that instantaneous invention idea, right? Two teams coming up on the telephone. Multiple people. It always happens. Yeah. Right. And is there something. Different countries around the world. Yeah. Like the TV was invented by two or three different people around the world at the same time. Right, right. And, and so is there some kind of psychic connection to this that's spiritual in some way? And yeah, so you could say, all right, the, the radar range, you know, that idea, you know, was developed by an engineer at Raytheon two years before Roswell. But I maintain that there's no definitive start point on all this thing. I do too. And you know, the other thing I think about when I think about the radar range being two years before Roswell is that all these years later, it wouldn't be hard to make it look like it was all developed two years before Roswell. Yeah. Even if it wasn't. That's exactly right. I just want you to change a few patent applications and some black and white pictures and you just say, oh, this was 1945, not 1947 and a half. That's the, that's some of the easiest things to do. And again, something else to think about as we go along here that I always try to remember myself is that just as important with all this. And actually this is maybe the most damning and damaging thing is the narrative that has to go with it because at the base of it, we're humans and we need a story to believe or not believe. Right. And that story is authored. It is crafted. And you are being fed it now. And there might be truths and untruths mixed up all in it. But who controls the narrative has the power. That's right. Along with the, whoever has the guns or the ray guns in this case also has the power. Right. But they also control the narrative. So if you believe any of this at all, maybe Roswell was not the first recovered craft that maybe, maybe we're led to believe that. Like, well, there you go. It's a modern phenomena. That was Project Mogul. That was weather balloons. That was the Russians with experimenting with deformed little humans. Right. And magenta preceded Roswell if magenta is real. So that was much, much earlier. Yeah. You know, we look, we've all seen ancient aliens, too. And it's like, is there something that's actually ancient about this and has been developing? And then something else to keep in mind. If that is NHI, non-human intelligence technology, that also must logically have been being developed as they went along as well. Yeah. And their development is exponentially faster than ours. UnitedHealth Group is simplifying health care by investing in tools to help patients know more and pay less. These tools help patients find providers and compare costs and save hundreds of dollars annually. Learn more at UnitedHealthGroup.com slash commitment. Cold and flu season has a way of sneaking up on you. One minute you're fine. 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Yes, you know, not everyone is going to dig through John's stuff over at the Black Vault, but it is the ultimate repository for FOIA documents, Freedom of Information Act documents, and this cache is no different. Obsessive UAP fans will be familiar with it, no doubt, but for those of you not taking the time to dig through huge document dumps like Scott would love to do, I would too, but I wait for him to do it, and then he can just tell me the particulars. We've saved more than a few of them to our servers as well, as you can expect, and this one particular ASAP one is from 2022, I think, and it's pretty fascinating. Yes, complex, but fascinating. Well, very complex, as you would imagine it to be. This stack of documents came out of the Defense Intelligence Agency, specifically regarding the Advanced Aerospace Weapon System Applications Program, and right off the bat, we have to clarify, these aren't just manuals for better jet engines. These papers are a serious deep-dive attempt to figure out the physics of what space travel looks like 40 or 50 years from now. And this is relevant to this topic, because if you believe anything we've set up until now at all, there's already proof of concept on a lot of these ideas. It's just not us doing it. Right, right. You know, and the scope here, it's absolutely massive. We're not talking about burning kerosene in a rocket anymore. That was always found. I said that since the beginning of our show. I just found that so quaint. Like, you know, we're still thinking about candle power here. These papers, they're looking at things like fusion propulsion. You know, when you're smashing hydrogen and boron together to create thrust without the dangerous neutron radiation you get from standard nuclear fission. They even look at antimatter, which, you know, they admit is the ultimate fuel because it converts mass completely into energy without any waste. And they, you know, they admit the storing the stuff would be a nightmare. That's the whole other problem, right? There's always some catch. But the really mind-bending ideas start when they talk about moving without propellant at all. Now, mind you, we had a little help from Jim and I on explaining this stuff because it's definitely outside our wheelhouse. But we're doing our best to tie it all together here and make it understandable. Now, in this particular FOIA dump, they discuss metric engineering or vacuum engineering. The idea is that empty space isn't empty. It's a structured medium with energy density. So, if you can manipulate that structure, you can technically change the speed of light locally around your ship or create a warp drive that contracts space in front of you and expands it behind you. Yeah. So, it's basically Star Trek. Right, right. Star Trek didn't invent the warp drive. Gene Rodberry just took it into his own creative world. But in this case, we're talking about the Alcubierre warp drive. And forgive me, Mr. Alcubierre. I'm still learning how to say your name. This is a concept that Miguel Alcubierre came up with in 1994. By the way, if you want to see a super cool short video explaining this on YouTube, check out Arvin Ash's YouTube channel. And that's A-R-V-I-N and then A-S-H. He does a really good job of showing you Alcubierre's warp drive, you know, how that would work in a 12-minute video. And that's his point is that he takes complex ideas and dumbs it down for the rest of us. And I'm trying to make it even dumber. No offense to you guys. It's mostly so we can explain it. No, it's for us. Yeah, no, it's just for us. Because they explain it like a five-year-old doesn't work for us either. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, and that video has over 3.2 million views. So some of you have probably already seen it. But the idea is that you aren't moving through space. You're moving the space around you. And what's fascinating is how this ties into the transmedium reports we hear about and have been talking about. Objects going from air to water without splashing. One of the things that Ash says in his video is you can compare it to surfing. The surfboard rides the wave, but you're not moving relative to the surfboard. In the case of the Alcubierre warp drive, your ship rides the wave of space by controlling the expansion and contraction of it. Which, to me, is pretty similar to how sailing and airplanes work by creating low pressure either in front of the sail, in the case of a sailboat, or above the wing, in the case of an airplane. Except rather than pressure, you're contracting and expanding space around your vessel. And the act of doing that is propelling you. Or in the other cases, like we just said, it's actually more kind of pulling you along. And that's the interesting thing is whether it's with the Alcubierre warp drive, or sailing, or flying, you always think, oh, I'm being pushed. And you're not. You're being pulled. In every scenario, you're being pulled. You're creating low pressure, or you're creating a vacuum in front of you, or you're doing whatever, and it's pulling you along or lifting you. Yeah. First of all, it's clever. However, again, our old thinking is like, how do you push this thing? And again, according to Newton, is that you, as they say, you have to throw something out the back. There has to be an expenditure of propulsion. And here, it's like, let's think more cleverly about this. Why wouldn't an advanced intelligence think more cleverly about this? And like, stop trying to build a device that uses conventional thinking, you know, in a way, but to use what's around you. And it is like, yeah, so like you say, it's like surfing, and that's something, the environment around you is pushing you. You are the crafter. Let's do it. Let it do the work. Right. And so the barrier between the object that's traveling, you on the surfboard, and then there's the surfboard that is between them. Now, what I also thought when watching this video is that there are some conceptual similarities or connections then to what we saw in Jeremy Corbell's documentary there about Bob Lazar. And that what he was describing, essentially, and again, I was playing this on the show as best I could, dumbed it down. But Bob Lazar does actually a pretty good job of himself explaining that when you have a manipulation of something like element 115, which is what he's claiming is a new substance discovered through their S4's crash retrieval programs, is that there's such an efficient and massive expenditure of energy that you're warping space time. So you're creating a bubble around you, and in that, you can slingshot without, again, if you did these kind of things, even in our atmosphere, you would smash against the walls of the spacecraft. Right. And so now you're bending space time around you and using that as your propulsion. And here's what's important about that and what you just said. I'm so glad you said that. All of these papers in this particular FOIA document dump that Greenwald did supports the idea that the U.S. government is, in fact, exploring methodology that exactly aligns with everything Bob Lazar has been saying forever. Yeah. When all these people are like, oh, he's not real. This is BS, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, no, this all fits real well with his whole thing about how this kind of propulsion would work. It's falling into place. And I think, like I said, when I first saw the arguments about, and I, you know, didn't know then, I took a very neutral approach, like, well, I don't know if Bob Lazar is lying or not. I mean, certainly, he seems a little bit eccentric and, you know, but what, you know, what personality isn't in this field. Wouldn't you have to be to figure out this kind of crap? Well, that's what I'm saying. That's the type of, it's somebody who does think outside the box. Somebody who's willing to explore those ideas that are not commonplace and get really interested in them and inspired and have that kind of genius mentality. And so what I love about this is, like, we got hung up on these things. It's like, well, I looked at the employee roles for, you know, the time you said he was at Area 51 or working for so-and-so. And I didn't see his name. Like, don't you think that would be the easiest thing to do? Or, you know, he didn't have this diploma. Erase him from the employee. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's a document. He wasn't in the phone book. Excuse me. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think it would be. And if he was, it certainly wouldn't, it would be easy to get rid of it. So anyway, we get hung up on that stuff because those are the tangible things we can wrap our heads around. So anyway, exactly. To your point here. Yeah. Getting back to one of the FOIA documents in this collection, this one explicitly states that if you engineer the space-time metric, and that is the vacuum that's created around the craft, it alters the physical properties of the craft itself. Also fascinating. Yeah. It says the energy bonds of the materials would essentially harden. So what the report actually says, this is a quote, such a craft could, for example, impact water at high velocities without apparent deleterious effects. Right. So by hacking the physics of the vacuum that the craft is inside, the craft doesn't slam into the water like a brick. Right. It just transitions. But the biggest problem with moving that fast isn't just the water. It's the G-force. Right. If you take a right-angle turn at Mach 10, the G-force turns the pilot into jelly. Well, they have a theoretical fix for that too. It's called the inertial frame bias drive. And so these papers are proposing that a double hull configuration where there's an outer hull that handles the propulsion and interacts with the external environment, pulling 100 Gs or whatever is necessary. But the inner hull, the crew compartment, is manipulated to maintain a constant 1G environment. Ah, perfect comfort, right? Yes. Like a Cadillac. Right. The mechanical fix for that is, you could see it in the sequel to 2001 with Roy Scheider in 2010, the year we made contact. Which I think is, it didn't get the kudos it deserved. Right, the respect. But there's a lot of great concepts in that one. And what you saw, the Russian spacecraft, is that it had a rotating center to it or a port where you actually operate because that would create your artificial gravity. Right. Spinning around, so. Centrifical force. Right. Which, by the way, pretty sure Arthur C. Clarke came up with that idea or was one of the first ones to pioneer that, yeah. Right, so it's, yeah, and you see it at, well, no, the first time I think I saw it was a Moonraker, James Bond. Yeah. They had to spin the thing. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that makes sense. The spinning creates the gravity. Otherwise, you're floating around and it's not as efficient. Yes. But getting back to your clever idea here, this two-hole concept here, it effectively decouples the pilot from the movement of the ship. Right. That's what you need. If you're going to have physical, biological beings that survive space travel, you need to buffer them. And you could be accelerating at speeds that should kill you, but inside, you feel like you're sitting in your living room, right? There's no, there's no sense of movement. And again, that's how it should be. And so they note that because you wouldn't feel the motion, you'd have to rely entirely on synthetic vision. Right. Talking digital screens here, because you're looking at a window, you're moving that fast without feeling it. It might make you really sick. You're talking about cosmically car sick. Yeah. But that's what I, as a kid and looking at the old Star Trek, it's just like, oh, you know, my first thoughts are like, well, why isn't there a big window? And it's like, in what you realize, like, no, it's a screen. So. Right. Even at that early age, I realized like, oh, it must be a camera projecting onto a screen because what would you see out a 10 foot thick polymer glass window? Right. Really nothing that's of use. And so just to focus in on things, yeah, you would need some kind of camera system. But you're right. It's like you have to think about all these other things relative to being a biological being traveling in these machines. By the way, I just looked this up real quick, and it's not related in any way to how this would work mechanically, but just for people who are like, I don't believe this is impossible. I just want to remind everyone who can hear this right now that we are currently going 67,000 miles an hour around the sun right now. That's right. So just something to think about. Yeah. And you don't even notice it. Yeah, exactly. So, but navigating these things is a whole other beast because these craft are designed to move in any direction, up, down, left, right, pitch, roll. They call it six degrees of freedom in the documents here. And they actually compare the control scheme to a submarine specifically referencing the sea view from the old sci-fi show, Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea. Right. But, you know, but there is a limit. The paper suggests that a single human pilot has a cognitive limit. Yes. Now, here's what I'm saying. Here's your ceilings, your thresholds on what us as beings can endure. So you can only track about four to seven highly complex different things at once before you lose what they call the big picture. Yes. So, you know, at the speeds these things travel, relativistic speeds, human reaction time is just too slow. You travel thousands of miles in the time it takes to blink. Now, I'll give you another anecdote here that we can understand. A very good friend of mine who also just passed, and he actually edited one of the episodes of this show, was born and raised in San Diego, I believe. And so he had a very good friend who was an FAA-18 Hornet pilot, you know, and Top Gun kind of fellows. And he asked him once, it's like, God, it must be so much fun just flying a Generation 4 jet like that. Just, yeah, it's like you're the top of the top, you're highly skilled, it must be just exhilarating. And he says, I wouldn't say it was fun. He says, well, what do you mean? And he says, well, because, and this is what we're talking about here, losing the big picture and that cognitive limit. He said, when you're flying one of these super advanced jets, your mind is calculating so many things at once to operate it correctly and not crash or doing something that's going to end tragically. That he said, I wouldn't call it fun. He said, yeah, there is an exhilaration, but it's also very nerve wracking. It's not just woohoo, I'm just tooling around the skies, is that you're having to keep track and stay on top of so many different literal moving parts, but also calculations and just keeping your head in the game that he said, yeah, he said, I enjoy it, but I wouldn't call it fun. On that note, by the way, 67,000 miles an hour is almost 19 miles a second. So just count to one and you went 19 miles. Yeah, not bad. Anyway, the solution that they proposed here is merging the pilot with the machine. We're talking about brain machine interfaces or BMI, where you fly the craft with your thoughts, like Clint Eastwood and Firefox, bet nobody remembers that one, to bypass the delay of moving your hands. They even suggest using clonable autonomous fleets where one pilot manages a swarm of drones because doing it all manually is impossible. All this reminds me of Ender's Game, by the way. You must think in Russian. Yes, that's fine. Well, that's the idea. No, it's a concept like, oh, that's so cool. It's like, yeah, they've been working on that for a long time. Ben Rich, you know, when we talked about years ago, you and I were talking about that. And one of my favorite quotes of his, after a talk at one of the universities, it may have been Berkeley, two students, you know, chased him down the parking lot and said, you know, Mr. Burton, how do these things fly? He says, you ever heard of ESP? Yeah. It's like, yeah, that's how they fly. Right. And you're actually seeing a bit of a foreshadow. And I've only seen the trailer to this, but like a lot of us in this genre, I'm anticipating with great pleasure the coming of Spielberg's Disclosure Day. Oh, yes, yes. And you have a shot in there where I think that's what they're alluding to is that brain-machine interface in a way to be able to understand and communicate effectively with a higher intelligence. Right. Because the other thing that we both heard, and I've heard both sides of the story, people think like, oh, you have to communicate with them only telepathically. And then I heard some other, it's a lot of videos of interviews with these older gentlemen who are in programs and then now they're towards the end of life and they're giving up their secrets by one saying like, no, they can talk. They can, you know, they have that capability, but they can talk to you too. Right, right. Who knows? But what we're saying here is that to fly this, and again, in talking about the most advanced military jets, you couldn't do that on your own. You need a computer to do that. It just wouldn't fly. That thing's not a biplane. So what we're talking about here for us to get into the game here, to dip our toes into it, is a brain hack. Oh, by the way, yes, Ender's Game, good book. So a lot of complex stuff, a very brief nutshell, but, you know, probably the most interesting thing about it is that it's making a very relevant and salient point about the kind of travel we're seeing these transmedium USOs do. And that's that, at least theoretically, according to our brightest minds, what they're doing is mathematically possible. Yeah, and theoretically possible, too. Right. Right. That's it exactly. It's not magic. They are looking at technologies that remove mass, ignore inertia, and treat the vacuum of space like a fluid you can engineer. Yeah. And it sounds like magic, but it's just very, very advanced physics. Now, here's the big question. Is time different for the occupant than it is for the, you know, outside the craft? Yeah, I think you're getting to time dilation. Yes. Something that is affected by those principles. Well, I think in this case, it depends entirely on the engine. Now, the Alcubierre concept discussed in these papers, this creates a bubble. So the ship sits still inside while the space moves around it. And because the ship isn't technically moving through space, the crew suffers no time dilation. But there is a bizarre side effect mentioned in the vacuum engineering paper regarding modifying space time. Which is? Well, it says that if you engineer the space time metric around the craft to accelerate the time frame, which is to make time flow faster inside than outside, the light coming from the craft would blue shift. And that's two words combined into one, B-L-U-E-S-H-I-F-T. Now, this document says this could lead to a brightening of luminosity where the craft's heat signature shifts up into the visible spectrum. So, to an outsider, what this means is that the craft might suddenly glow bright blue or violet just by manipulating time. Orbs, anyone? Orbs, table for two? Orbs? Well, there is, there is that, but we've, oh, I talked about this a long time ago, but it was Otis, I think the gentleman's name was Otis, who was developing a craft. And that was using maybe a crude form of anti-gravity or anti-matter propulsion. And there was a radio program, I think out of New York many, many years ago, called Long John Silver in his radio hour. And he had the gentleman on there. And what he was describing is that they took a test flight. You know, some guys are on board. There was a blue or kind of an intense violet color that was admitted from the energy exchange. These guys ended up, you shoot, like in an instant. They don't even remember the trip. It's just like this thing's now a long ways away from where they started. They were outside of the craft in the brush. Like they had just twigs all over them. They don't know how they got there. Okay. So something pretty amazing happened, but it reminded me of that color. So yes, the violet, I've heard that violet light or bright blue light description before. Yeah, yeah. So how does all of this make it possible to travel at high speeds underwater though, you might be asking. Enter Dr. Salvatore Cesar Pais and his patented HAUC. HAUC or HUAC? HUAC. It's H-A-U-C. It's an acronym. Yeah. H-A-U-C. It stands for Hybrid Aerospace Undersea Craft. This again, this is a theoretical craft. As far as we know. As far as we know, yes. U.S. patent number 10,322,827B2, which is described as a craft using a vacuum plasma shield and method of using the same. Patented June 18th, 2019. So this uses a vacuum plasma sheath to reduce water friction to near zero. Now, Dr. Pais patented this idea while working for the Naval Air Warfare Center Aircraft Division. That's NAWCAD for everyone keeping a list of acronyms. He is now at the Space Force, but he's listed as the inventor on this and several other revolutionary patents that are mind-bending to say the least. Okay, so what does the Dr. Pais patent say about the friction problem here? How does he propose we move impossibly fast through water? Well, his most relevant patent for this is called Craft Using a Vacuum Plasma Shield and method of using the same. The core idea is that you generate a plasma sheath, essentially a bubble of superheated ionized gas around the entire craft. Not just any plasma, it's a very specific high-energy plasma. So what you're saying is it's like a bubble or like a forest field, or does this have a connection to our beloved pistol shrimp? You know, it could. That's a good question. There's a pressure bubble created that deep down that emits a very high amount or very hot just energy. Yeah, it moves so fast it gives off light. It gets off light. I think it's at that fraction of a second, it's hotter than the sun. Yeah. And that's used to stun its prey. Yeah, I don't want to meet one. Well, the patent describes how this plasma sheath effectively creates a vacuum cavity around the craft. So you think of it like this. If your object isn't actually touching the water, or it's surrounded by a thin layer of gas that's less dense than water, then it's not experiencing the kind of water friction that would otherwise destroy it. Exactly. So now we're talking about what we discussed before. It's not pushing through the water. It's almost sliding through a void that it creates for itself. Exactly. The patent claims this vacuum plasma sheath can dramatically reduce or even entirely eliminate the resistance the craft experiences from the surrounding medium, whether that's air or water. This would allow for incredible speeds and rapid transitions between different mediums, air, space, and water, with virtually no drag. This is the mechanism for trans-medium travel without a splash. Okay, that's fascinating. And now I'm thinking about, you ever seen the video of the guy, old guy who works in a foundry, and he can flick his fingers through pouring molten metal? Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. On Instagram, I've seen that. Yeah, and you've seen how that- There's an effect. There's a name for that. But that's a very good point. It's the same principle. Yeah. How is he able to do that and not burn himself? Well, there's a very thin layer of, you know, moisture with his hands that's creating a cushion. Yes. That protects him. And there's a similar principle, I think, that works with people walking on coals. Right. How is that possible? So it's not all that crazy. So, but say you're in a bubble that lets the craft essentially slide through air or water with no friction, okay? Now, that explains the speed, but then how does it turn? Now, if it's not making contact with the air or water, how then does this thing change direction, all right? You can't just have a rudder. As you said, there's no control surfaces. That's right. You've hit on a critical point here. Traditional control surfaces, rudders, wings, ailerons, they work by creating drag or lift against the medium you're in. Now, if you've eliminated that interaction with a plasma sheath, those don't work. In fact, at the speeds this thing would be going, they would cause a catastrophic failure. The answer, according to Dr. Pais' theories and what's implied in his patents, lies not in external physical contact, but in manipulating the internal fields that create the plasma sheath itself and potentially manipulating its own inertial mass, which leads us to patent number 10,144,532B2, craft using an inertial mass reduction device. This was patented December 4th, 2018. So, this patent describes the engine that would power such a craft. It references the need to reduce drag for ultra-fast movement, complementing the vacuum plasma shield. I love how there's a separate component of this. You'll have to explain what the B2 means in the patent. Yeah, I'm not sure. Okay. But it's kind of like, you know, say you go to buy this thing on Instagram. It's like, but wait, wouldn't you like a discount on this other thing that you'll need? Yes. It's like, oh, God, now I have to buy this. I've got to put all this together? You put that in the card. Does it count assembled? But wait, you have five minutes to buy these extras out of books that are 60% off. It's like, oh, my God, I just want to check out. Anyway, so, but this is making a little more sense. I understand this now, sort of. Yeah, sort of. Directional control could be achieved by differentially modulating the strength or shape of the electromagnetic field that generates the plasma. So imagine the plasma sheath isn't perfectly uniform. If you momentarily collapse or strengthen the field on one side of the craft, you could create a localized pressure differential, which is just like what I was talking about earlier in the show with the airplane wings or the sails on a boat. You're creating low pressure on the side that you want to be propelled towards or drawn to. It's like briefly allowing a tiny bit of the medium to push on one side or pull, causing it to turn. So, right. And then you wonder, like, how do you control that? And then something else that's in the Bob Lazar, Gore Bell documentary is Bob Lazar describing on the bottom part of the section of the craft, the sport model, as he calls it, like there are directional cannons. And so it's directing, you're manipulating those or pointing them in an area that is manipulating gravitational push or pull or force in how you steer it. So, but basically what you're talking about here is that it's not a rudder, but it's almost like a controlled momentary re-engagement with the medium, right? Now, be it air, water, or whatever on a specific side. Right. That's one conceptual way. But the more radical explanation, and it's deeply tied into another of Pais's patents, the inertial mass reduction device is even wilder. If a craft can truly reduce its own inertial mass, as the patent theorizes, then very tiny forces can cause massive changes in acceleration and direction. So you're not even having to do a lot of work, really. Yeah. You're squeezing one end of the balloon here. Like I said, it's a, when we talk about extraordinary physics, my term, my coin, myself, is that you're goosing one end of the equation here to cause a massive effect on the other. Yeah. One side of that balanced equation, like in chemistry. So. Right. But in fact here, so it effectively weighs almost nothing, right? If you reduce that inertial mass. So then something like, you know, a whisper could push it or a slight shift in its internal energy field could send it careening in a different direction, right? Yeah. So it's like, when you think about how spacecraft move, and if you've seen movies like Gravity and any other movie where they're in space or whatever, it doesn't take much to change direction because you're in the vacuum of space. And it's the same case here. If you're bringing the vacuum with you, then you get to take advantage of the reduced amount of power required to propulse it. Right. Is propulse a word? I don't know. I think it is. I just made it up. The patent discusses generating incredibly high energy fields that can manipulate space time itself at a localized level. So if you can do that, you don't need external push. You can essentially alter the physics around the craft and within the craft to achieve instantaneous changes in velocity and direction. The very non-ballistic motion we often talk about. Yeah, yeah. And this could explain the observed tic-tac maneuvers. When they stop on a dime, makes a right angle turn at impossible speeds. They're not fighting against inertia. They're manipulating it. And does this somehow connect with that falling leaf motion or the really erratic behaviors that we see described with a UFO sighting? Right. Is something like that going on? Back to this though, the same fundamental technology that gets rid of friction for speed might also be the key to impossible turns. So as we're talking about, as we've said for years and years, everything is connected. Yes, even now in physics. And this is all theoretical physics for us, but it's fascinating. These craft, if they're real, aren't controlled by conventional means. They're bending the rules of physics, which is why they appear so utterly baffling to us. Here's a shift worth noting. Better health care is care that meets patients where they are. United Health Group is bringing it directly to living rooms. This is a win for patients managing chronic conditions. And here's the interesting thing. By closing those care gaps, administering in-home exams, and identifying risks earlier, more diseases can be prevented and patient outcomes can improve. In 2025 alone, United Health Group patients received over 19 million home visits. Learn more at unitedhealthgroup.com slash commitment. Cold and flu season has a way of sneaking up on you. One minute you're fine, the next you're sniffling nonstop. And when that starts, your skin feels it. That's where Kleenex Lotion Facial Tissues come in. They're designed for moments like these, when comfort really matters. With moisturizing ingredients like coconut oil and aloe, they go beyond just handling the sniffles. Kleenex Lotion Tissues protect, soothe, and moisturize your skin. Because let's be honest, using whatever's nearby, like toilet paper, fast food napkins, or even the back of your sleeve isn't doing your skin any favors. You can't predict sick days, but you can be ready for them. Especially during cold and flu season, when taking care of yourself or someone you love, means paying attention to the little things, like keeping skin comfortable when the sniffles won't quit. Kleenex Lotion is that small comfort that makes a big difference, so you can focus on feeling better and getting back to life. For whatever happens next, grab Kleenex. Success starts with your drive, and American Public University is here to fuel it. With affordable tuition and over 200 flexible online programs, APU helps you gain the skills and confidence to move forward. Whether you're changing careers, starting fresh, or pursuing a lifelong passion, our programs are designed for people who never stop. You bring the fire, APU will fuel the journey. Learn more at apu.apus.edu This is Johanna. And this is Linnea from Arsenic Soap. Thank you for listening to Astonishing Legends. Let's get back to the show. This stuff is patented by the U.S. Navy. You know, isn't just some fringe scientist theory. This is official. Well, yes, but there's a catch. I mean, it's definitely official. These are U.S. patents assigned to the Secretary of the Navy. It's a theoretical blueprint for how Kraft could achieve the very maneuvers we're seeing reported in these UAP incidents, particularly those involving USOs. And it shows that the Navy recognizes the physics required to do these impossible things. The theoretical solution is patented, even if the practical application is, from our perspective, still years or decades away. We had long planned to do an episode on a legendary character on the silver screen, but also with invention, very smart woman, Hedy Lamarr. Oh, yes. And when she came up with a communication system that was secret. That we're all using right now. Everyone listening to this is probably using this. Probably. Yeah. And basically, it was like, how do you get torpedoes to stop receiving radio signals for steering? Yes. And she had, from what I remember, it's like an alternating pattern of signals. So either your torpedo couldn't be jammed or you could jam someone else's. Right. And it's basically kind of eventually led to the invention of Bluetooth. Yeah. Of signals through the air. And she presented that to the Navy and they laughed at her. Yeah. Oh, come on. This is silly. This is sci-fi. And Wi-Fi, by the way. Exactly. Yeah. And so what was once thought as sci-fi is actually science fact. Science fiction is now science facts. But okay. So what's the catch here, though? Well, there's a lot of catches, really. I mean, in theory, we're nowhere near any of this stuff. And on top of that, both China and the U.S. have come forth with patents like this that, if realized, would cover the type of acrobatics these UAPs and USOs are demonstrating. But... But this may be all just smoke and mirrors? Exactly. Okay. Well, now you have two superpowers pretending to know what the hell's going on and trying to make the other one think, whenever you see these things, that it could be us doing this. That's right. And those very accusations have been made about Dr. Pais' patents, that their disinformation to keep it from looking like we have no idea what's happening with these things. Well, yeah. This is the chasing your tail part. Conversely, you know, why would you go into all that trouble if the UAP and USOs at the heart of this story have not already been proven to exist? Exactly. This, again, is another thing that makes it clear to us that the military believes these things are out there. Right. I don't know. But for me, learning a little bit about all this for this episode changed how I saw the Tic Tac and the Omaha object. Okay. And what do you mean by that? As we were preparing this episode, those craps no longer became like this unattainable magic thing that I thought I would never be able to wrap my head around. I actually understand some of the concepts that we just went over. Listen, we've talked about this, or I have, years ago, because there's two ways, I think, to go about it. And again, everything is heading towards a philosophy of existence. And we're talking about what they call ontological shock. Like, where does this all lead? Where do we come from? How does this begin? Where does it end? Where are we now in that path? And this is also years ago. We were talking about interdimensionality when it was fresh. And everybody, there's nothing new, but we were talking about it. And some listener, bless their hearts, but they said like, there's no other dimensions. This is all ridiculous. You guys are just, you got your heads up your butts. And it's like, you know, my response is like, look, this isn't us. This is, you folks like Michio Kaku, who've been talking about this, and different models of it. And you have, you know, their team is working on a model of 11 dimensions, at least, existing. And he said there was another team working on 12. And they just didn't agree, you know, equally smart scientists. They just didn't agree that the math could support 12. And he said, look, this is theoretical physics. And you have that as a knock too. It's like, well, this doesn't exist. It's theoretical. It's like, yes. But the baseline here is that the math exists for it, is that the math can support it. And then if you get way out there, you start getting metaphysical. It's like, well, math is actually not real either in that it's a way for us to calculate and measure things. But really, it's just a concept of that. And so, but if the math can prove it, it exists. Now, do you need that? Because another argument I've always had is that if you can time travel with your mind or your soul or your astral, you astral project, you remote view, whatever it is, you use this capability of the awesome power of the mind. You don't need a time machine. You don't need to invent a piece of technology to do that. That technology is within you already. You have this awesome spiritual metaphysical capability that you just have to learn how to tap into and you have to, you have to get over yourself to be able to learn how to do this. And others have, and that's in the ancient past. They've already figured this out. And so is that where this is going? Well, obviously, if you look at a lot of the chatter that's going on with ETs and how they communicate with us, the end result is mental. It's not a machine. You may have an interface that melds the two and you have this super advanced technology, but ultimately it's what's the most fundamental thing. Again, getting back to what we were talking about earlier, it's the soul energy. It's this power that you have within you that's, that they want to harvest. And that really interests them along with your physical body. And I always point to the case of, uh, we've talked about it before. I think oddly enough, we got into more of the weeds with talking about table tipping and how do you explain that? And Michael Faraday, perhaps my favorite inventor, the guy was a genius. He was brilliant. And he would come up with these experiments and these inventions, but he didn't know the math. He wasn't trained in that. And this is what I loved is that you're also talking about opinion here and what's possible and getting around and out of our own egos to get our heads around this. When you're talking about this changing your thinking, because mine certainly been changed as well. And when, uh, Faraday, you know, presented his, uh, his ideas and concepts and, and, and, uh, experiments to a, the formal body of physicists, they laughed at him because they thought, well, that's cute, but you didn't have any of the training here. You didn't go to school like we did. And finally it took a physicist named James Clerk Maxwell who proved and formalized Faraday's experimental theories with the math. It's like, yeah, these do work. The math works out on these. And then he's taken seriously by these other folks. Right. And so it had to be measured, but like we're talking about things that are perhaps most of them unmeasurable. So, so there you go. Anyway, it's just like, this is nothing new, but I love how we're maybe finally getting around to a, an expansion of mind. We've just laid out the blueprint. We've talked about how the Navy itself has patented the theory behind how a craft could achieve impossible speeds and seamless transitions between air and water, even turn on a dime. They they've got the patents for a vacuum plasma sheath and an inertial mass reduction device and more, but they don't have the craft. Well, not that we know of anyway, you know, the official position is that these are highly theoretical aspirational technologies. But we've also seen the data from the Nimitz in the Omaha and the very specific congressional testimony from Tim Burchett that these crafts do exist and are exhibiting those exact behaviors. Yeah. Which leads to the obvious unsettling question. If we, with all of our modern science are just barely grasping the theory of how these things work, but they are clearly working out there, how long have they been around? Is this a brand new phenomenon or have people been seeing these kinds of crafts for centuries, just interpreting them through a different lens? Exactly. And it brings us to what we call a same tech, different century argument. You know, if we assume just for a moment that this advanced plasma sheath, transmedium technology exists, do we see descriptions of it, you know, however imperfectly the descriptions are in historical records? And the answer chillingly seems to be perhaps. Yeah. Let's go way back then to those incidents that you dug up for this episode, starting with my favorite, because you went there, the pilgrims. Well, they went there. Yeah. Think about them, what you will. Yes. You know. I like the funny hats. The buckles on the shoes. Are those necessary? Yeah. Buckle on the hat. Buckles everywhere. They knew how to do that. A lot of buckles. Yeah. Stealing pumpkin pie recipes and whatnot. But you got to figure the first ones to at least keep written records in the colonies here. So yeah, on January 18th, 1644, Governor John Winthrop of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, who was a highly educated and meticulous man, recorded a striking incident in his diary. And he wrote that, quote, about midnight, three men coming in a boat to Boston saw two lights arise out of the water near the north point of the town cove. Now, Winthrop, being a devout Puritan, struggled to explain this. He noted that this was in the same spot where a ship had exploded months earlier, killing five men, including a sailor who supposedly claimed to speak to the dead. And in his analysis, Winthrop leaned heavily into the religious explanations of the time. And he theorized it was likely the devil having taken control of the sailor's body, accompanied by an eerie voice. And to him, it was a supernatural manifestation like a ghost or a demon. And then now we're back to talking about ghosts and demons contemporaneously. They knew what it was originally, and it still is. That's right. Yeah, yeah. But if you strip away the 17th century Puritan zeitgeist for a second, if you look at just the raw observation, quote, two lights arise out of the water and went at a small distance to the town and so to the south point, and there vanished away. What are you left with? Well, you're left with an anomalous object, emmating light, emerging from the water, moving with intent and speed, and then disappearing. Now, is that a 17th century description of a ghost, or is it perhaps their best attempt to describe a transmedium vehicle, a USO, if you will, rising from the depths and moving with capabilities far beyond anything they understood or could understand? So the crucial detail to keep in mind here is that it came out of the water. That's right. So that's 1644. Now, I would swear, and I feel like you've been talking about this for years, probably even on the show, that Columbus saw something too at some point. Yeah. Now, I, okay, in all honesty and fairness, I had heard about this years ago, and this is often mentioned on, you know, shows like Ancient Aliens, which I enjoy, but I didn't know much about the details, and you'll hear this passed off as an anecdote quite a bit without on-camera experts, quote-unquote, giving too many details. So, but the basic gist of it is, in his journal entry for October 11th, 1492, just hours before making landfall in the Americas, Columbus himself recorded a very strange observation. And this would be around 10 p.m. when he saw light, and it wasn't just him. Also, Pedro Gutierrez, who was also in the ship, saw something which appeared like a small wax candle that was being raised and lowered. Yeah. Now, Pedro Gutierrez is a familiar name to me, but I can't remember what his position was on the voyage. Now, he was a very important figure on that first voyage, because he served as the royal steward to Queen Isabella, and was essentially a gentleman of the court who would have been a trusted official. So, he's not just a random sailor on watch, but a high-ranking, politically connected individual. Exactly. And his presence as an additional, verifiable eyewitness lends significant weight to Columbus's own observation. And it wasn't just the captain seeing something strange. You know, it was also this royal official, somebody who would have been expected to maintain a clear head and give accurate reports. So, it's a second credible set of eyes on that anomalous light. That's pretty cool. So, they describe a wax candle being raised and lowered over the vast unknown expanse of the ocean. Right. This wasn't a static star. Right. Or a ship's lantern, which would be fixed. This was an anomalous light behaving erratically. Yeah, precisely. You know, it's an object exhibiting non-ballistic motion. This thing is lifting and dropping. It's an unexplainable beacon in the middle of nowhere, witnessed by the captain of the expedition himself. So, again, this is, I would consider, a transmedium phenomenon. It's basically a USO-like event observed centuries before modern technology and interpreted only as a sign, not so much a machine. So, these accounts, albeit anecdotal, from Winthrop, Columbus, and Gutierrez, provide historical framework. As we near the end here, we cannot forget to mention John Keel's illustrious friend, Ivan T. Sanderson. Ah, yes. And specifically, his book, Invisible Residents. Oh, we love Ivan. He's just, what a guy to have a dinner with. Very cool dude. And drink. Try to watch any kind of video, you know, old film of him that you can on YouTube. Just entertaining, beginning to end. But, you know, Sanderson, we love him also, not only because he was kind of a character and had this interest in this kind of stuff way before a lot of other folks. He was just way ahead of his time. And his work in Invisible Residents provides a, it's a wealth of historical and contemporary examples. And one of the most compelling he details, which speaks to the physicality of these objects, involves the SS Hattie D in 1964. Yeah, this wasn't just a sighting. This was a physical impact, right? A collision. Yeah, okay. Now, that's a very, yeah, absolutely critical point here, Scott. Now, here's an excerpt from our copy of Sanderson's book. On the 5th of February, 1964, a 105-foot converted PT boat, the Hattie D, chartered by one R. W. Rutherford, struck an unidentified object 25 miles off Cape Mendocino, California, and sank. Said Rutherford, we struck an unseen object. It was not a log. It was like metal. It hit the bow first and then took away our rudder. I wouldn't want to say anything for publication as to what it was, but it definitely was a strange object. Okay, and then in another report of this incident, he is quoted as saying, what hold us was steel and a long piece. And I think that's page 82. Yes, Ivan T. Sanderson, Invisible Residence, the reality of underwater UFOs. These weren't just lights in the water. This was something with mass, with density, something that can inflict damage on a vessel. It was tangible. It caused damage. But here's my question, though. Knowing that large cargo containers were invented in the mid-50s prior to this, couldn't the Hattie D have simply struck a submerged container, maybe, lost from a fighter? Well, maybe. Wasn't it the Robert Redford movie? Didn't a sailboat struck a submerged container? Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Right. That was a good movie. Yeah. Okay. Well, at the time the cargo container had been invented, there were only about 100,000 or so which were in use. Now, I know that sounds like a lot, but nowadays it's about 5 to 6 million. And even today, about 10,000 are lost at sea per year. And that, yes, indeed makes a bad hazard floating out there. But if you do the math, and this isn't scientific at all, but this whole event is anecdotal anyway. But say if 10,000 out of 5 or 6 million are lost a year in the present, back in 1964, you might lose, what, 150 or so, okay? So hitting one in the open ocean at that point would be like, it's like a needle in a sea haystack or a haystack of seas or seas of haystacks. So the Hattie D was sailing near the tongue of the ocean, and around them parts, depths are up to about two miles. So wouldn't that be a perfect place to hide, right? Two miles. That's a lot of water. If hiding is all they might be doing anyway, or just a convenient way to stay out of sight. Yeah. I mean, I love this story. And by the way, we licensed an amazing stock footage still of the rescue of the Hattie D, which you can see on our socials and website for this episode. But this could have been a lot of things, I guess. On the other hand, and it's an anecdotal story anyway. And after all, no matter how clinical we try to get in our analysis of this stuff on Astonishing Legends, we're also here to have fun from time to time, right? Right, I guess. Yeah. So I say whatever the Hattie D hit, it was weird. Was it a USO? Not sure. But Sanderson's book has hundreds of USO stories in it. He was onto this idea way before the rest of us. Well, so was Columbus, if you think about it. Just didn't know what to make of it. But ghost lights. I mean, here's the thing. Natural phenomena like that has always been described. But you're right. That's the other bigger question here. Do these ancient folks have the tools or conceptual powers to be able to accurately describe what they're seeing? I think in some way, yeah. If you're a cognizant person, you can put down what you were actually seeing. But it's just better illustrated with all the descriptive tools we have now, which we didn't even have if you watch TV, like Twilight Zone, which we love. They didn't have the terminology and the concepts yet to describe everything that they're displaying on the show. That's right. So, well, getting back to this, he was onto this idea way before the rest of us. Now we have, of course, the guerrilla skeptics of Wikipedia attacking his ideas as they do anyone exploring these things in the 70s. And sure, it was a different time. It was a different time. And entertainment was no doubt baked into some of the accounts, of course. But on the other hand, I doubt they're all faked. I doubt that they're all fabricated. Yeah. So we spent a lot of time talking about the what, the tic-tacs, the orbs, the USOs, but we need to pivot to the where and the why. And the idea that something is living down there, that usually sounds like vague folklore. It sounds like Atlantis or Cthulhu. But if you look at the data, specifically the geological data, it might stop being folklore and start looking like infrastructure. Curious use of a word there, sir. The standard assumption has always been that if there are advanced craft operating underwater, they're down there because, well, naturally it's a good place to hide. It's dark. It's deep. We can't see them. We can't get to them. But what if concealment is just a secondary benefit from all that? What if they aren't just hiding? What if they're harvesting? Harvesting what? Well, in a general sense, harvesting energy. Okay. And, you know, what we know from the Department of Energy that deuterium, heavy hydrogen, is abundant in seawater. It's the primary fuel source for theoretical nuclear fusion. And if you had a civilization that required massive amounts of energy, the ocean isn't just a garage. It's a gas station. Remember the, there's that great UFO, this is in the air sighting, but it was in Australia. A guy on a, on a, going on a dirt bike, sees a UFO with a long hose coming out, tapping a water tower. The water tower. Yes. Yeah, I remember that. I love that story as well. But this all goes just beyond fuel, you know, just being about fuel. It's about the physics of the location itself. So now we're going to talk about the Puerto Rico trench, but this is also reminding me, are you going to talk about one of our favorite films, Oblivion? I know. I, I've thought about it internally, but I didn't say it out loud while we were working on this episode. Okay. Right. I did almost, I almost said it. I think you made a reference to clones and I was like, yeah. Oh, there you go. You might bump into your clone any day. No spoilers. Um, earlier we did mention the 2013 Aguadilla, Puerto Rico incident where a DHS aircraft captured thermal footage of an object splitting in two and hitting the water without a splash. Yeah, yeah. That location itself is geologically bizarre. Yeah, it really is. Uh, the Puerto Rico trench is the deepest point in the Atlantic, but it's also home to the largest negative gravity anomaly on earth. And we're talking about a reading of minus 380 milligals. Yeah. We actually have to define what that means. It's not like we, it's not like we knew when we, when we, when we researched this before we started digging into this stuff, that was gibberish, but we're talking about gravity, a gal named after Galileo, uh, who I believe we mentioned earlier, is a unit of acceleration used in the science of gravimetry. One gal is defined as one centimeter per second squared. Right. Okay. So it's a measurement of the strength of the gravitational field in a specific spot. Now, standard gravity on earth is roughly 980 gals. A milligal is just one thousandth of a gal. So when we talk about anomalies, we are usually talking about very tiny fluctuations in the earth's field. But in the context of geophysics, minus 380 is a pretty massive number. In fact, the Puerto Rico trench holds the record for the largest negative gravity anomaly on earth. Yeah. And to visualize this, you have to understand that usually if you have a dense mass, like a mountain, you get a positive gravity anomaly. There's more stuff there pulling on you. But in the Puerto Rico trench, you have this deep gash in the crust filled with water, which is less dense than rock. That creates a mass deficiency at the surface level, hence the negative reading. However, the papers we're looking at specifically regarding the origin of the trench point to something fascinating happening underneath that. That's right. The anomaly isn't just an empty hole. Imagine a huge, incredibly heavy flap of earth's solid outer crust, literally denser than everything around it, hanging deep below the trench. And this massive weight is like a giant anchor. It's actively pulling down the entire Atlantic part of our planet's crust, bending it and dragging it deeper. It's so powerful that it actually warps the ocean surface. NASA studies have shown that this gravitational anomaly causes the surface of the ocean to dip measurably in that area. Navigational instruments can actually get thrown off because the down direction is slightly skewed by this massive deflection of gravity. Wow. Elements of scale here on a massive level. Planetary scale, of course. And then now you're talking about, as you said, warp. And again, it made me think, and we're probably going to touch on this here. When you're talking about warp propulsion, theoretically, now you're dealing with negative values, negative matter and mass and negative energy, which is different than antimatter. So you have this dark energy, which now we've learned composes most of the known universe. And it's a fundamental property, perhaps, of this theoretical propulsion concept. So positive values and negative values. And then when you have that on a giant planetary scale, now you're dealing with something. So that's right. But this brings us back to the why of it all. If you're operating a craft that utilizes inertial mass reduction or gravity wave generation, which we're talking about here, technology that essentially surfs on the fabric of space-time, maybe you wouldn't just pick a random spot in the ocean. You would go to a place where the planet itself is generating a massive active downward gravitational force. So you could just, you just go to the anomaly that minus 380 milligals isn't just a specific data point, right? It might be a charging station or a launch pad. Now think back to Dr. Salvatore Pais and those Navy patents we discussed earlier. Yeah. The craft using an inertial mass reduction device. Exactly. The whole premise of that technology is manipulating the quantum vacuum to reduce mass and therefore control gravity. If you're operating a craft that relies on gravity manipulation, well, it wouldn't behoove you to just park anywhere, right? You would go to where the planet's gravity is already doing something interesting. You'd go to the anomaly and the Puerto Rico trench isn't just a hole in the ground. It might be a functional location for this type of propulsion. Exactly. Like NASA and SpaceX launching rockets from closer to the equator for the gravitational assist. The rockets that take off from Kennedy Space Center, they don't have to work as hard as they would if they were farther north. Right. So that could explain the concentration of sightings in that specific area. But let's move to the other side of the country, the San Diego and the Catalina Channel. This is where the USS Nimitz and the USS Princeton had their encounters in 2004 and where the USS Omaha filmed that sphere splashing down in 2019. This is probably the most surveilled patch of ocean in history. Well, it's probably one of them. And yet they operate with impunity there. And we have to talk about Rear Admiral Tim Gallaudet. Now, he's not just some guy on a message board here, like throwing out crap on 4chan. He was the oceanographer of the Navy and the administrator of NOAA. He's gone on record discussing the seafloor features in the region. And we probably don't have time here, but I think it all, again, everything's connected. It has maybe some tie in with ley lines and Earth's natural gravitational things. And why do weird things happen along the 37th and 38th parallel? Yeah. Yeah. Everything is connected. Right. And Gallaudet has pointed out that there are underwater canyons to that point, specifically the Redondo Canyon that connect directly to the Santa Monica Basin and the Catalina Channel. He called it a monorail route right into the region where the UAPs are seen. But he went further than that recently. He's talked about identifying features on the seafloor that look artificial. Oh, yes. Now we're getting into it. You know, he mentioned a trench that looks like a skid mark. Something crashed and skidded to a stop. Or perhaps it is a transit lane. He's proposed sending ROVs down there to investigate because the topography suggests it's not just a natural formation. Now, if you combine that with the magnetic anomalies reported in the area, Ben Hansen found a massive magnetic hotspot right off the back of Catalina. You then start to see a pattern. These aren't random hiding spots. They are bases defined by physics. Gravity anomalies in Puerto Rico. Magnetic anomalies in California. Yeah. Ben Hansen, by the way, puts out some cool stuff. You know, the show he was part of that I missed so much. So it was a fact or fake. Oh, yes. It was a terrific show. Yeah, that was a great show. Anyway, this idea changes the narrative from visitors passing through to residents with infrastructure, which brings us to the conclusion of this whole deep dive. We've covered a lot of ground or water tonight. Well, there's ground under the water. Yes. Yes, we have. And I think the picture that's emerging here could be disturbing, but also fascinating. Yeah. We have the modern proof. We have the radar data from the USS Omaha and the testimony from people like Congressman Tim Burchett saying these things move at hundreds of knots underwater. Right. We have theoretical physics in the form of the Salvatore Pais patents showing the Navy is at least thinking about how to engineer this kind of travel into reality. Yeah. So we're looking at these early accounts like Winthrop and Columbus where strange things are happening in or around the water long before radar or military tracking. But there was one legendary figure who made it his life's work to collect all these weird unexplained phenomena from history wasn't there. The man who effectively laid the groundwork for so much of what we discuss. And that man is the ultimate godfather and original cataloger of astonishing legends, our supernatural father, Charles Fort. Charles Hoy Fort. I love the middle name, Hoy. Yes, Hoy. Which is, is it today in Spanish? Anyway, Hoy. He's an absolute giant in the world of the unexplained and a truly foundational figure. Yeah, we did a two-part series on Fort in early 2022 if you want to know more about him and haven't heard it. He was a writer and researcher in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and his entire philosophy revolved around what he called damned data. Any observation or report that orthodox science simply couldn't or wouldn't explain. He spent decades poring over scientific journals, newspapers, and meteorological reports from around the world. And Fort, writing long before UFOs or USOs were even terms, found evidence of these kinds of water-based anomalies. Yeah, in his books, like the Book of the Damned, New Lands and Lo, L-O, apostrophe. You know, there are tons of reports that, you know, if they happen today, we instantly recognize them as USO sightings. Now, he didn't use that term, but the phenomena he described were exactly that. It's unidentified objects or lights in, on, or emerging from bodies of water. Yeah, one of the most famous is the SS Iberian incident from 1915, which Fort features predominantly in the Book of the Damned. This was during World War I. A German U-boat, the U-28, commanded by Freiherr George Gunther von Forstner, sank the British streamer Iberian. The U-boat then fired a final torpedo into the wreckage. Commander von Forstner reported that the powerful underwater explosion from the torpedo actually threw a massive object out of the water. He described it as a gigantic sea animal, about 60 feet long, looking like a crocodile with webbed feet. It shot into the air, fell back down, and was never seen again, not even by Doug McClure. And, sir, I have been pressing you for at least a year to mention this somewhere. I'm finally glad we get to talk about it. Yeah, now it's here. So the U-boat commander interpreted this as a biological creature, a sea monster. Well, he did, yes. But Forst, with his typical open-mindedness, presented it as an unexplained object violently ejected from the depths. Now, whether it was a biological or something else, the key is the sudden, powerful emergence of a large, unidentified object from the ocean depths due to an underwater disturbance. And that, I believe, can be interpreted as classic USO activity or event. Let me ask you this, though. What's your verdict on underwater sea monster? In this particular case or in general? Let's just say this. Let's not open up a can of sea monsters here. This case, no, I asked you about it. It's like, ah, I think he was just covering up for some screw-ups he did when he was interrogated by the British when he was captured. Yeah, it's hard to know. I mean, that's entirely possible. We have talked in the past about astonishing legends that might be born of critical errors and judgment to explain mistakes, like the train that supposedly hit a UFO, which maybe instead hit one of the water tower pipes hanging down. Yeah. And then they were like, no, it was a UFO. I know. But it's just the weird, people say that like, you know, like Travis Walt, you know, they couldn't fulfill their lumber quota for the day. So they made up this crazy abduction story. No, that's, yeah. You're going to that? Really? That's your answer for that? Yeah. Like, no, the car broke down or the truck, you know, the truck broke down. We got lost. Somebody got lost. That's what you're going with? Sea monster? UFO on the tracks? Yeah, why not? Abduction? I don't know. You can't disprove it. That's true. But I know Fort collected many other, perhaps less dramatic instances of strange lights or objects observed by sailors. Countless. Yeah. Reports of luminous objects in the ocean, things moving at impossible speeds, objects seem to dip into the water or emerge from it. You know, for Fort, these were all pieces of a larger, unexplained reality. Remember the great Sargasso Sea concept where strange things fall into it, strange things come out of it. It's just a weird patch of the ocean here. Well, in his case, though, he was simply just documenting what people saw, which didn't fit. That's why it's the damn data. It marches on regardless of what you want it to do. It's just there. And really, his work today offers us a treasure trove of historical USO sightings that precede any modern technological explanations. He was the ultimate cataloger of the unexplained aquatic. And you're wearing a token from his family business in Albany right now, aren't you? Around your neck. Yes. I have a Civil War token from PV Fort and Company, dealers in fruit and nuts, where he worked briefly as a child before deciding he'd much rather write about weird crap. It's my talisman for our show. Whenever I put it on, I always say to myself, wish me luck, Chuck. That is terrific, my friend. But weren't you taking a risky trip or something or a car ride? And I noticed you wearing it. I thought like, oh, is that a little protection there? Well, I always wear it. I wear it every day, all the time. Well, that maybe just doesn't protect you, but perhaps it beckons something strange to happen to you, which I wish would also happen because it would make for a great episode. Well, but there you go. All right. Well, Charles, Fort, Columbus, the Pilgrims, the US Navy, they're all showing us that this isn't a new phenomenon. Yep. And now we have the locations. We know that UAP cluster around nuclear assets, and we know that USOs cluster around geological anomalies like the Puerto Rico Trench and the California basins. So when you put it all together, we are looking for something that isn't just dipping its toes in the water. We are looking at a civilization or an intelligence that understands the geophysics of this planet much better than we do. And they aren't hiding in the dark. They are utilizing the oceans. And perhaps they are using the gravity, the magnetism, and the deuterium. It seems they've been here a long time. And as Admiral Gallaudet said, they are interacting with humanity. So the question is, no longer are they real. The question is, whose planet is this? That's going to wrap up episode 320 of Astonishing Legends. Thanks again for your patience while we were shut down at the end of last year. We will be back next week with a follow-up episode about a particularly intriguing USO incident with hundreds of eyewitnesses. Look for new episodes of the Dead Letter Office weekly on Tuesdays, and keep an eye on our Patreon for more bonus content. Astonishing Legends is edited by Sarah Voorhees-Wendell at VW Sound. Our co-producer is Tess Feivel, who also leads our research efforts and manages our social media. And we're grateful for the hard work of our technical producer, Ed Vakola, behind the scenes. Special thanks to our announcer, John Bolin, for lending his voice to our shows. Greetings. This is Trine. I missed step three. So. We listen to Astonishing Legends! I, like Interstellar. N-I-K-O. And Transmission. Our theme, which is available as a ringtone, was composed by Judson Crane at Foundermusic.com. All other music and sound design for the show is composed and created by Alan Caressia. Our logo was created by Tommy Beaver Design, and our animated graphics for social media and YouTube are done by Joshua Sloan at DeadStreetProductions.com. Many episodes have transcripts available. For ones that don't, you can request them by emailing transcripts at AstonishingLegends.com. Astonishing Legends would not be possible without you, our listeners. Visit our store at AstonishingLegends.com or interact with us and other listeners on Facebook, Instagram, Blue Sky, Discord, and YouTube. You can also visit us at Patreon.com slash AstonishingLegends, where patrons have access to commercial-free versions of both the main show and the Dead Letter office, as well as additional bonus content, including the Patreon-exclusive show, The Astonishing Junk Door. No part of this show may be reproduced anywhere without permission. Copyright Astonishing Legends Productions. Good night. UnitedHealth Group is simplifying healthcare by investing in tools to help patients know more and pay less. These tools help patients find providers and compare costs and save hundreds of dollars annually. Learn more at UnitedHealthGroup.com slash commitment. 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