UFO Stigma, Experience & the Human Cost | Matt Ford (Part 1)

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I spoke earlier about the stigma, and this is one of the main reasons that I really go so hard after who I refer to as professional debunkers. People like Mick West, Michael Shermer, Susan Gerbick, the head of the sort of this crazy Wikipedia editing group called the Gorilla Skeptics. These are people, in my opinion, that their whole job is to propagate the stigma. And you think about what does that stigma do to a person that has experienced this stuff? Maybe they've had abduction experiences or things, experiences with this stuff that are just incredibly traumatic. If you have beings in your room abducting you at night, you must be a little bit nutty, or maybe you have some PTSD issues, as you had with the article from Ken Klippenstein regarding David Grush and, of course, Stephen Greenstreet propagating that. It's really, in a way, I feel like when these organized professional people do that, it's an attack on people's mental health that have experienced these things in a very traumatic way. For me, I didn't really have too much of an issue coming out and talking about this. Hi, everyone, and welcome back to That UFO Podcast. As always, my name is Andy, and very excited to welcome with me today a guest for the first time. He is an Emmy Award-winning journalist, producer, and political strategist. He, of course, will be best known to many of you as the creator and host of The Good Trouble Show. His work focuses on UAP, national security, emerging technology, and U.S. politics, interviewing senior lawmakers, Pentagon insiders, and leading figures shaping the disclosure conversation. Welcome to the podcast, Matt Ford. Matt, welcome. Andy, thank you so much for having me. It is a pleasure to be here. Good to have you on me. First time, can't believe it, after a good few years now of you running your show, which has done incredibly well, massive on YouTube. Yeah, I thought I would have had you on long before now, but that's just the way these things fall sometimes, and perhaps the timing has just worked out, eh, for this one. But listen, we've never spoken before face-to-face like this, outside of a few messages back and forward here and there. Nothing nefarious, folks. There's no inner circle or secret signal group that I'm a part of. Not with Matt, anyway. So we'll get the basics out of the way first, Matt. For anyone listening or watching this who's looking going, I'm not familiar with Matt, or maybe they've heard of your show. Many will have. Some won't. Who is Matt Ford, and what's kind of brought him to the UFO conversation? Oh, boy, that's really, really, no one's ever asked me that. Firstly, thank you for having me. I have been a fan of your show from the very beginning. These days, it seems my kind of bandwidth is fairly limited, so I'm only able to kind of keep up with a couple of shows, and yours is part of that list. So I've really been a fan of your work and what you do with this community. Yeah, so, boy, you know, I really became interested in the UAP, or I guess back in the day it would have been called the UFO topic. Really, when I was around, I think it was nine years old, when Close Encounters of the Third Kind came out. And, you know, I think it was just before that. I was in elementary school going through the public or the library in the elementary school and came across a section that had a bunch of UFO books. I was really kind of surprised, didn't know what it was, and pulled out this book that was about the Barney and Betty Hill abduction. And that really sort of lit my interest and imagination in this topic. And right around then, as I mentioned, is when Close Encounters of the Third Kind came out, and so I saw that. Of course, I was a big fan of Star Wars, and Close Encounters was actually really the movie that motivated me to want to get into the film and TV business. I saw that, and I was like, wow, that's what I want to do. I just was a huge fan of the cinematography and the lighting effects and special effects. And, of course, in my day job, I designed lighting for television shows. So really, almost my entire career started with Close Encounters of the Third Kind. So, yeah, so I was interested in the topic from around that age. I think like just about any sort of kid growing up, teenager, you lose interest in certain things and gain interest in others. So the UAP topic really, for the most part, fell off my radar through most of my teenage years and even college. And probably it was right around the early 90s, I had always had an interest in nuclear weapons, which one would think is completely unrelated to the UAP topic. So as sort of a side hobby, I began studying U.S. and Russian nuclear policy in the early 90s. And anyway, so after that, a couple years later, whenever the—actually, I don't even remember the time frame. But whenever Robert Hastings' UFOs and Nukes came out, I came across that UFOs and Nuclear Weapons. I thought, wow, this is kind of an interesting thing. I had no idea about the connection, read the book, and that really kind of sparked my—re-sparked my interest in the UAP topic. And I think the second book I read after that was the one by Leslie Keane. I don't recall the title, but it was the one where she interviewed generals and different people from the military, police and whatnot. What was the name of that one? I should know that. It's something like—because it's got that whole military thing in the title and interviewing. And I'll look up the book title. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so between those two books, I'm like, wow, this topic is definitely interesting. Maybe there is something to it. So again, you know, read those two books, read a couple others, and then kind of forgot about the topic again. Got busy with life and career and other things. So it was around, I think it was 2020, I heard that Congress had been legislating on—no, let me back up a little bit. But so 2017, December of 2017, I'm actually visiting a family member that worked at NORAD. And I was in Colorado Springs visiting this family member, and it was the day that the New York Times article came out. And I've got actually the print thing of the newspaper. My relative comes home from work, and I'm like, hey, you know, look at what's up with this whole UAP thing. And I remember this relative, the way they sort of reacted, they kind of just went, hmm, ignored it, and then went on and did something else. So I was like, okay, there truly is something going on there, just judging from this person's reaction. I can't really go into more detail than that, just for anonymity's sake of this individual. But anyway, that really kind of fired it off. So, you know, read the whole thing about Lou Elizondo and ATIP and saw, of course, the videos. And that, I think, really kind of put me back on the path of following the topic. And then, of course, the UAP task force comes along. I read the report. And around then, I think, is when I learned that there was actually legislation being written about all of this. And I was, around that time, I'd been producing political videos advocating for the Democratic side. And, of course, had a lot of contacts in the Democratic side of politics here in the U.S. And was introduced, asked to be introduced to Senator Kirsten Gillibrand's chief of staff. I wanted to write an article about the UAP issue and the legislation behind it and what people on Capitol Hill were doing. And it just kind of went from there. And that sort of developed into other relationships. And, you know, it was through these relationships I was told all of this was real. It was a national security issue. It wasn't about Russia or China. And that really kind of put me on my way. So I mentioned I had been doing political ads, advocating for Democrats, sort of anti-Trump ads during that one cycle. And, you know, I really kind of decided, you know what, I'm tired of dealing with politics and doing political ads. Why don't I do a political commentary show? And originally, it was just going to be straight-up commentary on liberal politics. And then thought, well, you know what, I'm going to do something different. I want to talk about the UAP issue. And it just kind of went from there. I all of a sudden had orbs showing up above my home and paranormal stuff happening in the house. So after having experienced it firsthand multiple times, I knew it was a real thing. And I also looked at it from the perspective that this is really, truly a national security issue. And it is something that we as a nation need to deal with and be transparent for all democracies, that this is something that we can no longer keep hidden. So, yeah, so that was really kind of the genesis of the show. And I just kind of jumped in with both feet, knew sort of very little about it at the beginning. But as sort of, as I'm sure, the same with you, the more people you meet, the relationships you develop, both front-facing and the ones that you can't speak about, you realize that there really is a there there and that this is an important topic. And that's really kind of the genesis of the show. And I found that I enjoy being in front of the camera more than I enjoy being behind the camera, which I've done for close to 30 years. And that's sort of the history of it. Yeah, I think for me, the more you find out, the less you know in this topic, especially. Maybe in life, but in this topic especially. That Leslie Kane book was UFOs, generals, pilots, and government officials go on the record. That's it. I couldn't think of that go on the record piece. I wanted to say are interviewed. And I was like, that does not sound like the correct thing. But what's interesting to me is, and I'll be really honest, Matt, when you first came on the scene, I was a little suspicious. You're not the only one. Well, do you know what? I think everyone tends to be with this. And you get the grifter stuff and all the podcasters. And I think podcasters or YouTubers, whatever people want to call themselves, probably get a bit of a, oh, Christ, another podcast. Yeah, I roll. Oh, yeah. But it's a very new form of media still, even though it's been going about 12 years, 13, 14 years maybe, going back to some of the early on-demand radio I would listen to. But it's here to stay, and it's only growing and becoming more and more how people consume their news, their information, their entertainment. Your show looked too good. And that's what I would say to people who I would speak to behind the scenes. And that's not like sitting in meetings at MI5 or anything like that. But literally, someone would be like, Matt Ford, his show looks really good. It explains a lot now, your background, the lighting. And your Emmy you won was for lighting. Is that right? Lighting production? Correct, yeah. So I was on the lighting team for the Academy Awards. So being part of that team, everybody that's part of the lighting team for a particular show, these are called technical Emmys. Everyone on the team receives an Emmy. So that was really where that came from. But yeah, I've worked in primetime television for 30 years. I've had clients such as Disney, MTV back when it was around, VH1. I've done stuff at the White House. But yeah, no, it's funny. I think it was Jeremy Corbell had reached out to me in the very, very beginning. And I remember the call. He's like, he just, he wanted to figure out who I was because I think a lot of people were like super suspicious. And he's like, hey, man, I just wanted to find out what you're all about and make sure you're not like CIA or anything. And of course, I got, you know, I had a big chuckle over it and thought it was pretty funny. So yeah, yeah, I have never worked for the government. I don't hold a clearance. You know, Arrow did reach out. Their recruiter wanted me to apply for the job and I politely, politely declined. But yeah, I completely understand someone just kind of comes out of nowhere onto the scene and starts talking. I would probably be suspicious too. Although it was funny. I was talking to Gary Nolan a couple of weeks ago and he said something like, he goes, if you were CIA, I wouldn't know it. And I said, well, yeah, you probably would, wouldn't know it, but I promise I'm not CIA or part of any sort of an intelligence agency or contractor or anything like that. But, but I do completely understand why sometimes people, I never, I'm never insulted by the question. I'll put it that way. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you're drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business. Whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. So you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Yeah, I'm glad it wasn't just me then because, you know, I literally still, after six years, I'm in a shed with a black piece of photography and I have a ring light that is held up by a nail, which is nailed into a piece of wood behind my MacBook. So I've got a very raw setup. So I'll get some tips off you, perhaps, on the lighting side of things. It would certainly help. But listen, the show looks great. It sounds great, obviously. And that was a big thing early on that stands out to people. It looks like a major U.S. talk show, you know, and I think that has an attraction and that helps a credibility side of things. That helps you get in touch with folks. And of course, your CV and background, I'm sure, was attractive to different people in the UFO community for different reasons. Let's talk about some of those early relationships. You mentioned reaching out to Senator Kirsten Gillibrand. You're looking to write this article. Who are some of the first names in the UFO community folks would know that you begin to have relationships with that you decide, I'm going to go and do this show, this podcast, and the information you're getting that you think there's really something to this. Where's that coming from? Well, actually, the one individual that was really critical for me kind of getting in the door was Dr. Gary Nolan. And I remember I met him at Seoul, the first Seoul, and I'm kind of bad with sequencing in terms of dates and when things occurred. But I think because I was really particularly focusing on this topic from a national security and legislative angle, like I'm not a UFO historian. You know, I'm so new to the topic. Half of the stories I hear about from other podcasts and whatnot, it's all news to me. So I'm not someone that has been in this area for very long. So that was an area that I didn't really kind of want to focus on because people that have been doing this for so long, such as yourself and others, really have that historical foundation to operate from. And I just, I didn't have that. And, you know, frankly, still don't have that. So that's when I decided, okay, you know, national security, things like that, legislative stuff are of particular interest. So I think because I was kind of coming from that lens and speaking about it in a non sort of, oh, you know, speaking about it from just kind of a serious national security lens, I think that that was sort of kind of what got me in the door. And the more people I would speak with, they, I think they just realized, you know, hey, this guy's for real. He's, you know, not looking to make a buck or, or a, you know, grifter or whatever the, the, the, you know, the, the critics like, like to often refer to many of us as. And yeah, so it was really, really Gary Nolan who, who so graciously made, made some, some introductions and James Landoli was, was very, very helpful. And I think it was really just spending time talking to these folks, you know, you get to know people and you develop relationships that are not purely centered around UAP and people get a sense of, of, of the type of person that someone is. And therefore that's how they, they sort of judge how much to trust you, I guess, in a way, you know, it's, it's like a Christopher Sharp of the, of the Liberation Times. And I consider him a really good friend. And a lot of times what we're talking about is not around UAP. It's about family and, and things like that. And, you know, there, there's a, a, a saying in show business that I really, in a way, apply to this topic. And we'll say it's, it's, it's, it's show friends, not show business. In other words, you know, when you work in the business, really it's about the friends you make and the relationships. It's not about, about the business itself. And I think for the most part, that's really kind of how I've always sort of operated and, and even, even in this space. Uh, so anyway, yeah, so, uh, I, that just kind of, I guess in a way, Gary Nolan helped, help me, you know, book some good guests, uh, as far as like, you know, vouching for me. And it kind of went from there. And then I think it was about, um, it was about a year prior to David, uh, Grush, uh, going public. I was introduced, uh, to Dave, uh, by, uh, a name I can't mention that people wouldn't know anyway. Uh, but sort of developing that relationship that, like anything in, in life, you know, you, you develop good, good friendships with someone and then they introduce you to other friends and it, your network just, just kind of grows from there. And, um, yeah, so that, that was really kind of the genesis of it all. And then of course, once, once Dave went public, that really, in my view, really kind of set everything off in terms of, of accelerated motion on this topic. And, uh, yeah, so I just, I continue to, to interview people that I think are of interest and, and try to provide a, a particular perspective, uh, or have an interview with, with, with, with a, from a perspective that I think that, that I'm good at, which is the national security legislative lens, uh, that sort of thing. And, uh, yeah, that's, uh, I think I, I think I answered your question. I, I, I hope I did. But you did. And I wonder then, so in forging those relationships, you've come in with this, um, you're friendly to the UFO topic in the sense you're not a skeptic, you know, you're not like you were interested in the topic as a child. You then, you grew up like many of us do and you've got nights out in college and studies and work and, you know, everything comes into it. Life takes over. And then you start to get back involved with the nuclear connection that piques your interest. What's your understanding then from say 2017, that time of what the UFO topic is, this phenomenon? Is it Matt Ford thinks you've got aliens coming from another planet and these craft and there's the UFO connection. So what's happening there? And then over the time of doing the show, where are you now and the people you've spoken to and, you know, the different pieces you've learned, what is this whole phenomenon? Well, I, I, I think that was what was, I don't know if it's necessarily unique because I'm sure other people have had the, the same experiences. But, you know, when I, when I started having conversations with Robert Hastings and people on Capitol Hill, it was literally like a light switch went off. And about a few days later, after some of these initial conversations, an orb appears above my house. And, and along with that are all manner of paranormal sort of poltergeist things that happen in my home and, you know, and keep in mind as I had literally nothing occur my entire adult life until, until that. So it was, it was, I was completely shocked. It was, it was almost as when I decided that I was really going to cover this topic and had conversations with people that said this was real and people on Capitol Hill that said this was real. And then boom, the stuff showing up above my home on multiple nights and we got banging on the walls in the house and stuff getting moved and voice, I mean, it was, I mean, it was, it was crazy. And, and, and I was, I was so kind of taken aback by it. I, as, as I've mentioned many times, I think it's one thing to think it's real as I've always thought ever since I was, you know, began reading these UFO books in elementary school. I'm like, yeah, of course these things are real. There are way too many people speaking about it, uh, credible, credible folks. And then of course the, the 2017 New York times article, all of these things lead, lead you to a sort of hypothesis, a hypothesis that UAPs are real. We're being interacted with, but then when you experience it yourself, you experience it multiple times, you experience it with, with family members and friends that are with you to see this stuff appear above your house. I mean, it was, I'll be honest, it was really shocking. And, and I think that for me personally, it was not, not like a wake up call, but it was, it was really kind of an epiphany that this is real. This has been covered up. This is clearly a significant national security issue. Um, and that it, it, people need to be talking about it. And, you know, as, as you mentioned, there are a lot of great podcasts such as yours and, and, and, and a handful of others that I listened to. Um, but I was like, okay, maybe I can add my sort of perspective, uh, to this. And, and, and at the end of the day, I love my country, uh, and this is my way of serving my country. I also knew too, that this particular topic didn't test well or trend well with my side of the political aisle being Democrats, that this really was a, a Republican issue for the most part. And unfortunately it can, it continues to be, uh, just on primarily on the Republican side that are, that are, are more open to this than on the Democratic side. So I thought, okay, with, with my Democratic connections and, and with the other social media account that I had on Twitter, maybe this would be a way of me sort of targeting content to the left side of the aisle who really needs to get up to speed on this. Uh, it was, uh, it was, you, this historically Republicans have been way more open to this being a reality than Democrats, which tend to be very skeptical of it. So, um, so yeah, so it, it, it, for me, it was having experienced this myself, um, multiple times and, you know, and, and the, the orb appearing above my home, I mean that it's probably been well over 20 times and this has been in three years, uh, if not more that I've seen these things above my home, the, the paranormal stuff only lasted probably four to six months and then just poof turned off like a switch. But, but I think the thing I was most surprised was how it happened, that it was like a light switch turning on. Um, I had no idea that the paranormal side co-located with this, with this stuff. Uh, and you know, so it was, it was really kind of a jumping in the deep end and, and learning all this stuff and then asking these, you know, various people such as Dr. Nolan and, and others, uh, like, Hey, you know, what's going on with this? Is, is this normal to have, you know, banging on the walls of my home with this other, other stuff appearing above the skies. And so it was really jumping into the deep end and education for me, who was really very, very naive about the extent of all of this and, and the high strangeness, all of that stuff. Uh, so it, it was, it was, it became, it became a personal thing in that I'm, I'm experiencing it. And then it's like, okay, what am I going to do with that information? How am I going to use that to better message on this topic to people that maybe are skeptical about it? Uh, but in terms of, of my thinking, as far as how it's evolved, I mean, I'll be honest, I, I have no freaking idea what this stuff is. I have no idea why it showed up above my home. I have no idea the paranormal connection. I just know it, it happens. Um, but I, I remember Lou Elizondo saying once, if anyone tells you they know exactly what it is, they're probably full of, you know what? And I, I certainly have no clue, um, other than what people in, in and outside of the government or have worked this topic, uh, as part of their professional portfolio in the intelligence community or, or the, uh, the, the defense community, just saying it's many different things from many different places. Um, it's, you know, it's a lot of what I think everyone by this point has, has heard from people like David Grush and, and, uh, other, other people that have worked this, this topic, that it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a complex thing. Cause I, I will say when I first got into it, I thought, oh, this is something from planet P and it comes over here. I don't know how it gets over here. Uh, but it's as simple as that. So really kind of discovering that all of this is a, a, a very complex issue, uh, that could be from many different sources and manifesting itself in many different ways. If you would have asked me in the very beginning, if all of that would be part of it, I probably wouldn't have believed that I would have, would have said, nah, this has got to be a pretty simple, straightforward black and white thing. And I think for the most part, everyone would agree it's, uh, we live in a very complex universe, uh, and, um, yeah. How do you feel as the host of a show coming out and sharing those types of experiences being quite recent? Cause obviously I, I, I shared my own at the beginning of this podcast. One of the first things I ever said in the first episode, don't go back and listen to them folks that are horrendous was, was me for me. Yeah. It was me. Um, Oh God, mine's our different level of horrendous. It was me going back and sharing my encounter I had in the nineties when with my mum and sister and stuff like that and talking about the podcast from there. But then to come on, having just had those, just getting into the topic, was it a hesitancy that it's going to look like I want to start this show. So I need to come out and say, I've had experiences, you know, you, you get a lot, you get accused of that anyway, in this topic, don't you? Um, it's like, I always say that if I, if I finish this interview, Matt, it's we're recording on a Saturday night here in January. It's cold, it's dark, it's, it's freezing, it's freezing cold just now in the UK. It's late evening for me. If I walk out here and there was a 100 foot black triangle hovering over my house and I choose not to get my phone out and film it folks. But I then come on the podcast and say, breaking news, I just saw a triangular UFO. Half the folks that listen or watch this are going to go, sure you did. So there's that, do you even bother saying it? So I wonder what was that like? Were you comfortable from the get go sharing those experiences? And secondly, do you feel you needed to have those experiences to keep doing what you're doing? Or at least can I really ignite that fire in the early days? Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you're drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business. Whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. So you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. So I didn't speak about what I had experienced until I think it was several months into the show. And I think, you know, I'm trying to think of why I didn't do that. And it was, you know, I'm not really quite sure. You know, of course, I tried to keep my personal life out of the show. So there's kind of a professional boundary there. But, you know, even I would say, I really didn't share these experiences with many, many people outside of a couple family members and a couple of friends. And, of course, family members that were there to experience it. And, you know, I'll be honest, it was, even though I was sitting there talking about it in a public way, there was probably in the back of my mind worry about stigma or people, you know, I'm not really sure why. That was so long ago. But I think that I just, I kind of came to the conclusion that me not speaking about it was really kind of being disingenuous, that I wasn't being completely open about, you know, my story and what I had experienced. I remember I was on a show, and it was a producer that I hadn't worked with in a number of years. And for quite a long time, I did not tell anybody in the professional world that I was doing this show. And I think part of it was worry about the stigma or if it would affect my professional career. And I had just made the decision to kind of, to go public with what I had been experiencing and then also talk when I'm on sets of other shows that I'm working on as a designer, if it comes up naturally in conversation, to say what I was working on and what my show was about. Because, of course, people will ask you, well, what's your YouTube show about? So anyway, so I'm doing, funny enough, it was this Christmas special for Demi Lovato. And the line producer on it, I tell him what I'm up to. And about 30 minutes later, he comes by and he's like, hey, during lunch, if you don't mind, come by my office. So I said, sure. And I figured he wanted to talk about budget or schedule or something like that. So my meal break comes around. I go into his office and he's like, shut the door. I'm like, oh, okay. This may not be good. And he goes, I never tell anybody about this, but myself and my family have had encounters with NHI since we were all kids. And this individual, they never spoke about it publicly. They, of course, said, I never tell anybody because they'll think I'm crazy. And I'll tell you a family story here in a second. But it really kind of made me realize that it's important to share these things. And the thing that I was really surprised about is I thought, okay, the people I'm going to share this with in normal conversation, maybe a couple here and there will say, oh, I had something like that happen. But I found that well over half of the people that I brought this up to or came through a natural conversation said, oh, yeah, I had this happen when I was a kid. Or I saw this triangle come out of this lake. But I never told anybody about it because I thought they'd think I was nuts. So in a way, I think sharing my own personal story, A, gave me more confidence in speaking about it, made me feel like I was being genuine with my viewers. And, you know, in a way, the more people you speak to about this and you end up being surprised by how many people have had the same experiences, in a way it's comforting because it's like, you know what, I'm not alone. It's not an issue of going, oh, did I imagine what I saw or whatever, you know, having seen things multiple times over the years, there's, you know, there's zero doubt as far as what I've seen. What it is, I don't know. I know it's not prosaic. And if somebody doesn't believe me, that's fine, too. You know, I know what I saw. Family have been there to see it. Friends have been there to see it. So, you know, I could really sort of give a shit if anybody believes me. But I think it's important for people to share their truth. And, you know, I spoke earlier about the stigma. And this is one of the main reasons that I really go so hard after who I refer to as professional debunkers. People like Mick West, Michael Shermer, Susan Gerbick, the head of this sort of crazy Wikipedia editing group called the Gorilla Skeptics. You know, these are people, in my opinion, that their whole job is to propagate the stigma. And, you know, and, you know, and you think about, well, you know, what does that stigma do to a person that has experienced this stuff? Maybe they've had abduction experiences or things, experiences with this stuff that are just incredibly traumatic. And then you look at the organized group of people such as Mick West, Stephen Greenstreet, Susan Gerbick, Michael Shermer, who spend their time propagating that stigma. Because really what they're doing in a way, or not in a way, what they're doing is they're saying in a roundabout way, you don't know what you saw. You don't know what you experienced. If you have beings in your room abducting you at night, you know, you must be a little bit nutty or maybe you have some PTSD issues, as you had with the article from Ken Klippenstein regarding David Grush and, of course, Stephen Greenstreet propagating that. I mean, it's really in a way I feel like when these organized professional people do that, it's an attack on people's mental health that have experienced these things in a very traumatic way. And, you know, for me, I didn't really have too much of an issue coming out and talking about this, as I spoke about earlier. But I would say probably one of the best illustrations personally for me as far as the stigma and the net negative mental health effect that these quote-unquote skeptics have would actually be with my mother. So my mother passed away April 2nd of last year. And it was around this time a year ago that she had really fallen ill. She had told me when I was around 15, I grew up in Texas, she had told me when I was around 15 that she was sitting on the porch of, when she was 15, in suburban Dallas, Texas, watching the sunset happen. And she saw this UFO fly by in the distance. And it was a story that stuck out with me, didn't really kind of think about it too much. So anyway, it was around May of last year, I'm sorry, May of the year prior, so about six months or so prior to her passing, maybe a little bit longer, nine months, I'm bad with math. But she said, you know, hey, when you come into town, I have something I want to tell you. Now, I live in Los Angeles, and, you know, my parents were back in Dallas. And I was supposed to go out and visit, but at the same time, I was helping launch the UAP Disclosure Fund with Yuong Fung. And I was the director of strategy, so I had to push my visit off to Dallas. Anytime I'd call, my mom would say, hey, I have something I want to tell you. And to be honest, I thought it was bad health news. So I was actually a contact in the desert, and I was speaking to Chris Bledsoe, so this would have been late May. And I was telling him how much I had missed, how much I missed my family, my mother in particular. You know, I moved out to L.A. in 98 to get into the television field. And I remember vividly Chris Bledsoe saying to me, Matt, tomorrow I want you to call your mom. And so I said, okay. And this was the last day of the thing. I was driving back from Palm Springs. And I call her up from my phone and tell her how much I love her and missed her. And she said, well, there's something I've been wanting to tell you. And again, I thought it was going to be bad health news. She had had a stroke 15 years prior, so, you know, her health had not been great. And she said, do you remember that story I told you about what I happened when I was a teenager, 15 years old, in Dallas? And I said, yeah, you're sitting on the porch of your parents' home, and you saw this UFO fly by in the distance. And she kind of paused for a second, and she said, well, I didn't tell you everything. And I said, okay, you know, what do you want to tell me? And she said, well, this wasn't in the distance. This was right in front of me. And I said, okay. And I said, well, what happened? And, you know, my mom was not into sci-fi. She didn't have any UFO books, never read UFO books, never talked about aliens or little green men or any of that stuff. So, basically, what happened was she was sitting on the porch, and she said this, and she's not using the kind of typical UAP UFO parlance or, you know, how people speak about it in our field where we, you know, we track this stuff. She said she was sitting there, and this gray cylinder, she said, was about 40 feet long or so, just poof, materialized right above the home across the street, right above the roof. And so she said this big, long gray cylinder, she said it kind of appeared like a magic trick. And she said this gray cylinder had this long rectangular window, and in this window, she said there were 10 of these beings in this thing. And she said in the middle was the pilot, and the pilot was, she said, studying me. And I said, well, you know, what did these beings look like? And she got quiet for a second, and she said, well, they kind of had a moon face. And I said, you know, moon, like, you know, moon in the sky? And she said, yeah, like a moon face. And I said, well, you know, how did you know the pilot was the pilot? And she said, well, the pilot was standing in the middle and was taller than the others, and there were two rows of, I don't think she said tables, but benches or something like that, and the other ones were behind it. And I said, well, you know, what was the pilot doing? And she thought for a second, and she said, well, I think he was just studying me. And I said, well, were you scared? And she thought for a second, and she goes, no, I actually felt really calm. And I said, well, what do you think they were doing there? And she said, well, I think they were just seeing what things were like. And, you know, and I asked her, you know, did you have any missing time or anything? And she thought for a second, and she said no. And I said, well, did the thing fly off? And she said, no, after a couple of minutes, it just disappeared the same way that it appeared. And so then, of course, my next question was, well, you know, when did this thing disappeared? Did you go in and tell your mom and dad and your four other siblings? And she said, no, they would have thought I was crazy. So, and what I didn't tell you at the very beginning of it, when she said, I have something I want to tell you, she prefaced it by saying, I just told your dad about two weeks ago, and you're only the second person to hear this. So, here's my 77-year-old mother who kept this experience to herself her entire adult life and finally felt compelled, you know, six to nine months before she passed away to finally tell people that she trusted. And what it said to me is the kind of trauma that these sort of experiences have on people is significant. You know, so here's my mom who was afraid of what her brothers and sisters would think of her, what her parents would think of her. And, you know, what an awful thing to have to await a yoke to carry around your whole life because you're embarrassed or you feel that people will make you feel ashamed to share experiences with that, like that. And, you know, so just to me, it just, it goes to what experiencers must go through knowing that you've got all these people that will snicker and make fun of or they'll go online and they'll see things that Mick West says or Michael Shermer or Stephen Greenstreet. And what a horrible thing to do to people. You know, you sit and you ask yourself, why would Greenstreet and Mick West and all these people spend all of their time telling people that they're wrong, that they didn't know what they saw, that what they experienced was a night terror or some just, you know, off-the-hand comment. You know, that kind of stuff really has an effect on people and it has an effect on people's lives. And I would, you know, personally, I think people like Mick West and Shermer and Greenstreet are being paid to do these things. But, you know, I would hope that at some point in their lives, they stop and take a look at themselves in the mirror and really ask themselves what they're doing, what they're spending the most precious commodity someone has in their life, which is their time on this earth, the amount of time they spend telling all of these people that have had these traumatic experiences that there's something wrong with them and that the stigma that these individuals propagate stop and really think about the personal impact this has on people's lives and their self-worth and how they feel about their own mental health. And the, you know, I'm sure with a lot of people, people seeing posts by these individuals and going, well, you know, maybe there's something wrong with me. Maybe I didn't see these things. It lacks a compassion that I truly cannot fathom other than money what would motivate these individuals. Because at the end of the day, this stuff is real. We all know it's real. And until we get to the point where this sort of stigma and the people that are purposefully, and when I say purposefully, people like Mick West, Stephen Greenstreet, Michael Shermer, Susan Gerbick, and others, these people that are propagating and continuing to pour gasoline on that fire to put it out, until that ends, you know, I think, you know, I just, my heart goes out to the people that... Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you're drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process. So you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. I have dealt with this kind of trauma. And of course, a lot of people, it has not been a traumatic experience for them. You know, for me personally, it hasn't been traumatic. I don't think I've been abducted. If I have, I really don't want to know about it. I know people have had different experiences and some look at it as a positive thing and look at it as a negative. But we really, we need to get ourselves to a place where we can have honest conversation and do so in an environment where we are not going to be judged and can speak our truth. You've said that very well. I'd appreciate, first off, you sharing the story, your mother's testimony. Incredibly interesting. And in the best way, it's not unique to hear, like you say, those people who have had these sightings and experiences and they keep them quiet for years and decades. And you wonder how many folks never share their story or experience and past without ever having been able to pass that on. I suppose for me then, does that explain your own personal approach online can come across quite barbed and on the front foot or on the attack, shall we say, when it comes to a lot of these folks? Now, my personal approach, people will tend to know. So I don't get involved in any of the drama, I think is the blanket term for it, or the online stuff, because I really can't be bothered. I don't have the bandwidth for it. Like yourself, I've got a full-time job. I've got young children. I've got a life. And when I'm pushing the trolley around Tesco, which is our big kind of supermarket, doing the shop on a weekend, and I've got my kid in the trolley kicking me, I've got another one moaning they want sweets or something, and I check my emails or my messages to see. I had Stephen Greenstreet the other day. You know, I interviewed Stephen a few times back when he was UFO friendly, and he was always perfectly nice. And then something happened, and he changed. We know that. He had his Basement Office series, which was very much, you know, all about the UFO topic. And, you know, we had lots of wow moments from Stephen and how into the topic he was. He had a go at me just last week because a thumbnail I had had David Grush and James Clapper on it. And he said, I take it this show doesn't have either of these gentlemen. One of his recent thumbnails had Sean Kirkpatrick and two great aliens. I imagine, not having watched it, his show didn't contain Sean Kirkpatrick and two live great aliens. So I don't know what the point is. But it is, like you say, this need that people have to sit online and slate other people's passions, topics, whatever it may be, not just in ufology, if this goes to a sport you like or whatever it might be. It can be the smallest things. But there is that money side of things that I know what you're getting at there, that there are people potentially being paid to do this stuff. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. But there's just an inherent human trope in 2020s onwards, or even before then with social media, that people just do this because of the way it makes them feel for whatever reason. Now, I don't always think the UFO community helps itself. Not saying people invite this on themselves. But you mentioned Chris Bledsoe. His story is back under the microscope with his appearance on American Alchemy with Jesse Michaels. I don't know if you've managed to catch that yet. It's a pretty extensive three and a half hours interview. If you know the Bledsoe story, you know the Bledsoe story. I've interviewed Chris and Ryan some time ago now. There are issues, though, where it doesn't help the community when Chris Bledsoe has posted pictures of a rocket launch and prayed to the rocket launch. Sure. Or what is clearly the ISS or Starlink, and they're passing them off as orbs. I have said before, Matt, for the record, I think Chris Bledsoe had a genuine experience and story. Whether that has continued to the extent that it's passed on, and I don't necessarily think is correct, but that's probably a chat for another time. So I see where we add fuel to the fire for the sceptics. I don't think it is just going to stop that you could sit these folk down in a room and say, look, let's all just be adults, be mature, and let's have a conversation. That's not going to happen. That's 2026. The world's a bin fire. We know this now. And I don't see that change. It's not changing anytime soon. So where does the line sit for you? Because, like I say, you're really comfortable. You'll put on thumbnails of Sean Kirkpatrick as Pinocchio or like a puppet, and these kind of attacks. Do you not fear the retaliation off the back of that? Or all of this to say, is your mother's experience and that lifelong stigmatisation she's suffered through, and others, enough for you to say, to hell with this. You know, if it's good enough for one side, it's good enough for me. Is that what keeps you going in that sense? I think that, like, I think there's definitely a delineation between healthy scepticism, because, you know, we should all be sceptical about, you know, just not take everything at face value. And probably most of the time, a lot of what we see is prosaic. And, you know, and that's, for instance, one of the reasons I don't really, you know, with a couple of exceptions, I've ever had anybody come on to really, like, talk about a siding or whatever, because I certainly, I don't have the technical background or any way of really kind of saying for certain what something is. You know, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't there. So, you know, so there's a difference between really being a sceptic in a healthy, sceptic way, in that, yeah, you're sceptical about it, but you're going to go wherever the data leads you, versus these folks that I, you know, really kind of shine a spotlight on that are really doing narrative and perception management. You know, so, you know, those individuals, and it may not be money that motivates some of them. And, you know, as you mentioned, it's like, we'll really, we'll never know. You know, we'll never have proof one way or the other whether any of these individuals are being compensated or maybe they're just doing it because it's a thing. You know, people will often, you know, say to me, you know, it's best to just kind of ignore these individuals. And, you know, and I certainly understand that perspective. But for me personally, I would much rather, it's important for me to shine a spotlight on these individuals rather than to let it go unchecked. So, you know, when you have debunkers that are able to get on a CBS news magazine here in the U.S. or when you have an individual that, you know, that manages 200 plus Wikipedia editors and those editors specifically go and vandalize the pages of whistleblowers such as David Grush or Christopher Mellon or Lou Elizondo or all of those folks. If no one is out there in my personal view, and I do not fault anyone for not taking my approach, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But for me personally, I would much rather put the attention on them so people know that, you know what, these folks are not being honest. They are not correctly representing the facts or they are misrepresenting the reputation of whistleblowers and being disingenuous. You see some of this with, like, Mark von Rennenkamp does this with Mick and Green Street. It does shit. But in a far less barbed way than I do. But it's like if you, in my personal view, if you kind of let these people run amok, it's just going to continue to snowball. So that's just been my personal approach. And again, it's not people that are skeptic. Like, it's like, I don't, I'm not trying to convince anyone that this is real. I believe it is. I believe it's a national security issue. And I understand why people would be skeptical of this stuff, especially if they haven't experienced it themselves. But when you have folks that are misrepresenting the facts, putting out content, or hijacking Wikipedia, and putting in their own worldview, you know, then for me, that is something that I'm going to, that is something that I'm going to call out. That is my personal approach, my personal sort of way of public messaging. And, you know, and then also for me, too. You know, I have family in the military. And when I see people from Arrow, former leadership, and specifically Dr. Sean Kirkpatrick, or Tim Phillips, attack whistleblowers, the men and women who have served this country, you know, for me, that's something that I choose to call out. You know, we've, of course, have seen this happen from DOD and IC since really the inception of this whole thing. This, this, this destroying of, or making an effort to destroy these individuals' lives, these whistleblowers. For me, it's, it's, it's a way of, of, of calling it out. I've, you know, I've been to DC and elsewhere where I've been at private functions with people, lots of people from various three-letter agencies who have come up to me and personally thanked me for speaking out about these individuals. And these are mostly people, people at Arrow. You know, I was at a function on Capitol Hill and there was a, a senior, a senior congressional staffer who came up and said, you know, thank you for saying the things that we can't say because we would lose our jobs, we would lose our security clearances. So that's just been, been my, my personal approach is to try and shine a light on these organizations and individuals who, in, in my opinion, and, and from, in my opinion, what they're outward, personally outward facing behavior shows that they are not honest brokers. Yeah, I can understand that. My wish, which won't happen, would be that we could have those conversations and agree to disagree. I've liked the fact, Matt, you've, you've said it multiple times in this interview, in my opinion, and that's, you've went on to say something I might agree or disagree with, but you're, you're quite within your right to do that. And I think that's missing quite often, people saying, you know, I think this, or in my opinion, this is the case. And you've got your right to agree or disagree, but it allows you to form, I think, a more well-structured opinion or well-structured argument for what you believe. And there's nothing wrong with having a fluid opinion that changes on the basis of that evidence. Like you say, I'm a healthy skeptic, but I like to think, I'm in the UFO garden and I'm looking over to the skeptical neighbors. But while some folks want to build a huge fence and block them out, I'm quite happy to lean over and have a chat with them in the evening when things get a bit quieter and, you know, hear their side of things and go, yeah, do you know what, I can see your point. Maybe one or two things actually are quite interesting. I don't agree with all of that stuff, but it can strengthen your own resolve and your own argument to open up to that. And I don't think that happens enough. And to be honest, I think that side of humanity just is getting worse and not any better as kind of social media is evolving. Sure. But you mentioned before, you've obviously visited DC, you've spoken to different folks. George Knapp, a couple of weeks ago on Weaponised, as they were rounding off 2025 and looking into 2026, said that he was aware of something coming that was going to try and pour cold water on the progress that Congress has made in the UAP caucus in the coming months that was going to look to stigmatize the topic again and basically rubbish the work that had been done. Is that anything you're aware of or you can think is coming? That is all for part one. Part two will be out in the next couple of days. You can listen to this episode already in full, ad-free and with no sponsors for less than the price of a coffee. If you head on over to Patreon or Apple, you can subscribe to the podcast for less than the price of a coffee or take up the two weeks free trial that are available on those platforms. You can head on over to Spotify and search That UFO Podcast Premium and get access to this episode in full. No adverts, no sponsorships and also with some extra bonus content as well. Thanks for listening folks. Running a business is hard enough so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other? One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting. Before you know it, you are drowning in software instead of growing your business. This is where Odoo comes in. Odoo is the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one, fully integrated platform that handles everything. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, HR, and more. No more app overload. No more juggling logins. Just one seamless system that makes work easier. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. It's built to grow with your business, whether you are just starting out or already scaling up. Plus, it's easy to use, customizable, and designed to streamline every process so you can focus on what really matters, running your business. Thousands of businesses have made the switch, so why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. That's O-D-O dot com.